History thread

Where goats go to escape
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Hugo
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Flockwitt wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 8:34 am
Hugo wrote: Fri Jan 08, 2021 6:12 am Just been doing some reading on the Balkans in prep for a deep dive on the breakup of Yugoslavia and came across the devshirme system:
https://chnm.gmu.edu/cyh/primary-source ... pabilities.

Kids were taken from the Balkans, enslaved, converted to Islam and then put into academies where they were trained to be governors, bureaucrats, military commanders or soldiers in the Ottoman Empire. Due to the fact that they were groomed from a young age their loyalty to the Empire was essentially a given. The soldiers that came from this school were known as Janisarries.

The devshirme system was scrapped in the 17th century and the Janissary corps was eventually abolished in 1826 after a rebellion.
The Janissaries are well worth reading up on. An essentially brilliant concept, the Christian janissary infantry and the Muslim noble cavalry. With the opportunity for merit based advancement to the highest levels the janissaries were guaranteed to be far more loyal to the Sultan than the nobles, while the nobles were still the higher class. Checks and balances that limited the constant issues of the Roman empire.
It is a brilliant concept and it appears that this move was taken out of the Mongolian playbook, Kublai Khan staffed his bureacracy with Turks and Persians rather than with Chinese.
Like his grandfather, Kublai Khan was a great warrior, but he faced the problem of finding a way to rule in traditional Chinese style while keeping power in the hands of the Mongols. Kublai was successful because he kept the civil-service bureaucracy, but staffed it with foreigners, especially Mongols, Turks and Persians. But, he got rid of the civil-service exam, and instead chose his officials from noble foreign families. In this way, Kublai was able to maintain control without giving power to the former Song dynasty’s civil-servants (government officials).
https://sites.google.com/a/fullerton.ed ... an-dynasty
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Hugo
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Oh and I got around to these BBC documentaries on the breakup of Yugoslavia which were (I believe) broadcast in the mid 90s.











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Hugo
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Biggest takeaway was the inadequacy of the international response to the wars, the refugee and humanitarian crisis.

In Episode 5 (I think it is) demonstrates just what a toothless Tiger the UN were and how their weak intervention resulted in the death of so many Bosnian Muslims because the Bosnian Serbs knew that the UN were all talk and no action.
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Niegs
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Are there any good books from the British military perspective on it? I've read the account of a 'local' who lived through it (but forget the title) and this book about Canada's role (with one hand tied behind their back).

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GogLais
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Niegs wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:15 pm Are there any good books from the British military perspective on it? I've read the account of a 'local' who lived through it (but forget the title) and this book about Canada's role (with one hand tied behind their back).

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Operation Insanity by Westley and Ryan was a good read. Deals with a cut-off group of the RWF trying to defend the local Muslims, gripping stuff.
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Niegs
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GogLais wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:38 pm
Niegs wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:15 pm Are there any good books from the British military perspective on it? I've read the account of a 'local' who lived through it (but forget the title) and this book about Canada's role (with one hand tied behind their back).
Operation Insanity by Westley and Ryan was a good read. Deals with a cut-off group of the RWF trying to defend the local Muslims, gripping stuff.
Cheers!
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Hugo
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Niegs wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:49 am
GogLais wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:38 pm
Niegs wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:15 pm Are there any good books from the British military perspective on it? I've read the account of a 'local' who lived through it (but forget the title) and this book about Canada's role (with one hand tied behind their back).
Operation Insanity by Westley and Ryan was a good read. Deals with a cut-off group of the RWF trying to defend the local Muslims, gripping stuff.
Cheers!
+1.

Nieg, FWIW have three books on the subject that I just recently picked up, I've yet to read them, but they all look very good:

1. Srebrenica, Record of a war crime.- Jan Willem Honig & Norbert Both

2. Yugoslavia, death of a nation - Laura Silber & Allan Little

3. The fall of Yugoslavia - Misha Glenny.

The first is exclusively about the war crimes committed by the Bosnian Serbs on the Muslims (and I think it goes into very graphic detail), the last is (I think) considered one of the most authoritative accounts of the war and the second accompanies the documentaries that I posted upthread.
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mat the expat
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I've worked with a lot of ex-Yugo (Bosnians/Croats/Serbs) over the years.

Some of them have some severe PTSD
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Niegs
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A nice story about WW1 medical pooches...
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Hugo wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 8:28 am
Niegs wrote: Tue Jan 26, 2021 1:49 am
GogLais wrote: Mon Jan 25, 2021 10:38 pm

Operation Insanity by Westley and Ryan was a good read. Deals with a cut-off group of the RWF trying to defend the local Muslims, gripping stuff.
Cheers!
+1.

Nieg, FWIW have three books on the subject that I just recently picked up, I've yet to read them, but they all look very good:

1. Srebrenica, Record of a war crime.- Jan Willem Honig & Norbert Both

2. Yugoslavia, death of a nation - Laura Silber & Allan Little

3. The fall of Yugoslavia - Misha Glenny.

The first is exclusively about the war crimes committed by the Bosnian Serbs on the Muslims (and I think it goes into very graphic detail), the last is (I think) considered one of the most authoritative accounts of the war and the second accompanies the documentaries that I posted upthread.
Re Yugoslavia - Many years ago my mate managed the hotel run by Sir Fitzroy MacLean in Strachur. I was putting some business his way and was invited for lunch with him and Sir Fitzroy. By this time Sir Fitzroy was badly crippled with arthritis. During lunch he kept having to go and read faxes (it was that long ago) and take telephone calls. He was very apologetic. Turned out this was the failing Yugoslav Gov and his contacts seeking his advice and begging him to go over and try and restore peace. By then he was too old and it was too late for Yugoslavia. He was very upset.

As an aside, at the lunch I asked Sir Fitzroy if he could sign some of his books for my then Father in Law who greatly admired him. He of course obliged. He asked about my FiL and I told him he trained for the midget submarines and in fact trained just round the corner from Strachur in deep water loch Striven. One of the x craft he trained in is in the naval museum in Portsmouth. Turns out Sir Fitztroys personal heroes were the midget submarine crew, who he thought were both mad and incredibly brave, and demanded a signed copy of a book from my FiL. Couldn't tell you who was more impressed with the other!

Sir Fitzroy passed away a few years after. My mate went to funeral and whilst at graveside he was surprised by a number of soldiers in black battledress and balaclavas who proceeded to fire a salute over the coffin and then disappeared as quickly and as silently as they had appeared. This was the SAS saying cheerio to one of their own.
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Hugo
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Just finished a book on Reagans role in the end of the Cold War and read the speech he gave to students at Moscow uni in 1988. Most of it he is championing the coming of the information age, the silicon chip, satellite technology and talking up the prospect of improving relations between the USA and the Soviet Union and there's an interesting paragraph at the end there.
"Americans seek always to make friends of old antagonists. After a colonial revolution with Britain, we have cemented for all ages the ties of kinship between our nations. After a terrible Civil War between North and South, we healed our wounds and found true unity as a nation. We fought two world wars in my lifetime against Germany and one with Japan, but now the Federal Republic of Germany and Japan are two of our closest allies and friends"
Its very true, after defeating former adversaries the US was able to turn relations around. After effectively defeating the USSR in the cold war the US has not managed to build friendly relations with Russia.

Both countries were on good terms in the 18th & 19th century but once they both emerged as imperial powers in the 20th century they became direct competitors and their geopolitical rivalry began. My theory is that its because Russia is geographically too vast a country for the US to effectively "tame" or control or bring into the fold so to speak. Due to its size and reach it will always pose a threat to the US.

I wonder if anyone else has a theory as to why Russo-American relations have not transformed in the post cold war era?
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Enzedder
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35 years ago today

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I drink and I forget things.
Gumboot
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Enzedder wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 6:58 am 35 years ago today

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Remember the day well. Mum drove me down to Wellington to catch a flight to Oz. We caught up with some friends of mine and watched the launch on telly at their place before going to the airport...early arvo nz time...quite the, er, downer.
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Niegs
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A friend shared a thing where Christopher Lee was telling Peter Jackson about how someone reacts when stabbed. That found me digging into the First Special Service Force’s hand to hand instructor... quite the badass!

https://www.irishcentral.com/roots/hist ... james-bond

And this thought to be lost training film.
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mat the expat
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I train with a guy who trains the Aussie Infantry.

Lots of nasty stuff
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Niegs
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mat the expat wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:21 am I train with a guy who trains the Aussie Infantry.

Lots of nasty stuff
I once saw one of those guys in a Can Forces training thing... it totally made sense, but took me aback a bit when he said "Fuck this fair fight bullshit. This is a street fight and you don't want to lose. When it comes down to you surviving, do whatever - balls, eyes, bite..."
Gumboot
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Forty years ago today...


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terangi48
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Not a cricket highpoint...............................................
Gumboot
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terangi48 wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:50 pm Not a cricket highpoint...............................................
A day that lives on in infamy...
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mat the expat
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Niegs wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:16 pm
mat the expat wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:21 am I train with a guy who trains the Aussie Infantry.

Lots of nasty stuff
I once saw one of those guys in a Can Forces training thing... it totally made sense, but took me aback a bit when he said "Fuck this fair fight bullshit. This is a street fight and you don't want to lose. When it comes down to you surviving, do whatever - balls, eyes, bite..."
It's one of the reasons a lot of Aussie troops now carry Kukris!
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mat the expat
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Gumboot wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:05 pm
terangi48 wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 9:50 pm Not a cricket highpoint...............................................
A day that lives on in infamy...
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Enzedder
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So it's also 40 years since this

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Not out as the umpires were checking for the batsmen grounding their bats - allegedly
I drink and I forget things.
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Blake
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Great site to sink a couple of hours into:

https://www.danhillmilitaryhistorian.com/archive
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FalseBayFC
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mat the expat wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:51 pm
Niegs wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:16 pm
mat the expat wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 8:21 am I train with a guy who trains the Aussie Infantry.

Lots of nasty stuff
I once saw one of those guys in a Can Forces training thing... it totally made sense, but took me aback a bit when he said "Fuck this fair fight bullshit. This is a street fight and you don't want to lose. When it comes down to you surviving, do whatever - balls, eyes, bite..."
It's one of the reasons a lot of Aussie troops now carry Kukris!
Ah yes to cut the prosthetic legs off the enemy. Wouldn't a hacksaw be a better weapon for that?
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mat the expat
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FalseBayFC wrote: Tue Feb 09, 2021 9:40 pm
mat the expat wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 10:51 pm
Niegs wrote: Sun Jan 31, 2021 12:16 pm

I once saw one of those guys in a Can Forces training thing... it totally made sense, but took me aback a bit when he said "Fuck this fair fight bullshit. This is a street fight and you don't want to lose. When it comes down to you surviving, do whatever - balls, eyes, bite..."
It's one of the reasons a lot of Aussie troops now carry Kukris!
Ah yes to cut the prosthetic legs off the enemy. Wouldn't a hacksaw be a better weapon for that?
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Flockwitt
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https://www.stuff.co.nz/the-press/chris ... om-germany

So what I've linked there is a story that was actually written and published in our local newspaper in 1936. It is a short piece on what a traveler to Germany thought of the state of the nation at the time. It speaks for itself.
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Niegs
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Just when you think you've heard it all from the 20th Century, Mark Felton's channel shows there's something I've never heard of before!

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Hugo wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:29 am Just finished a book on Reagans role in the end of the Cold War and read the speech he gave to students at Moscow uni in 1988. Most of it he is championing the coming of the information age, the silicon chip, satellite technology and talking up the prospect of improving relations between the USA and the Soviet Union and there's an interesting paragraph at the end there.
"Americans seek always to make friends of old antagonists. After a colonial revolution with Britain, we have cemented for all ages the ties of kinship between our nations. After a terrible Civil War between North and South, we healed our wounds and found true unity as a nation. We fought two world wars in my lifetime against Germany and one with Japan, but now the Federal Republic of Germany and Japan are two of our closest allies and friends"
Its very true, after defeating former adversaries the US was able to turn relations around. After effectively defeating the USSR in the cold war the US has not managed to build friendly relations with Russia.

Both countries were on good terms in the 18th & 19th century but once they both emerged as imperial powers in the 20th century they became direct competitors and their geopolitical rivalry began. My theory is that its because Russia is geographically too vast a country for the US to effectively "tame" or control or bring into the fold so to speak. Due to its size and reach it will always pose a threat to the US.

I wonder if anyone else has a theory as to why Russo-American relations have not transformed in the post cold war era?
That's an interesting angle on it and I guess you've answered your own question. Russia hadn't been crushed in the way that Germany and Japan had been and remained a nuclear power with substantial natural resources. The West though acted as if it had been crushed by expanding NATO up to its borders. And it takes two to tango, was Russia willing to effectively humiliate itself by looking for an accommodation with the West? Russian mistrust goes back to Western interference after the Bolshevik Revolution.
Lemoentjie
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Hugo wrote: Fri Jan 29, 2021 5:29 am Just finished a book on Reagans role in the end of the Cold War and read the speech he gave to students at Moscow uni in 1988. Most of it he is championing the coming of the information age, the silicon chip, satellite technology and talking up the prospect of improving relations between the USA and the Soviet Union and there's an interesting paragraph at the end there.
"Americans seek always to make friends of old antagonists. After a colonial revolution with Britain, we have cemented for all ages the ties of kinship between our nations. After a terrible Civil War between North and South, we healed our wounds and found true unity as a nation. We fought two world wars in my lifetime against Germany and one with Japan, but now the Federal Republic of Germany and Japan are two of our closest allies and friends"
Its very true, after defeating former adversaries the US was able to turn relations around. After effectively defeating the USSR in the cold war the US has not managed to build friendly relations with Russia.

Both countries were on good terms in the 18th & 19th century but once they both emerged as imperial powers in the 20th century they became direct competitors and their geopolitical rivalry began. My theory is that its because Russia is geographically too vast a country for the US to effectively "tame" or control or bring into the fold so to speak. Due to its size and reach it will always pose a threat to the US.

I wonder if anyone else has a theory as to why Russo-American relations have not transformed in the post cold war era?
1. UK and US tensions continued for quite a long time after the American revolution. They went to war again in 1812 and were never friendly at the state level until after WW2 when it was clear that the Poms' turn at running the world was coming to an end. So that's 1776 - 1945 with cold relations. It also appears to me that American and British friendliness is and was more bottom-up (i,e. from the common people) than top-down.

2. Germany and Japan were formally occupied by Americans, this never occurred with Russia. This is because USA never defeated Russia in a military battle, and this is the usual precondition for a humiliating occupation.

Therefore the comparison is a lot more similar to the USA with Britain, where you have to add:

Only 30 years have passed since the end of the USSR.
Russia and USA don't share a common language.
Russia and USA don't share a common religion.
Russia and USA don't share almost any ethnic background.
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Hugo
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Lemoentjie wrote: Wed Apr 07, 2021 6:24 pm 1. UK and US tensions continued for quite a long time after the American revolution. They went to war again in 1812 and were never friendly at the state level until after WW2 when it was clear that the Poms' turn at running the world was coming to an end. So that's 1776 - 1945 with cold relations. It also appears to me that American and British friendliness is and was more bottom-up (i,e. from the common people) than top-down.
Great point. The US had a better relationship with Russia in the 19th century than it did with the UK. Also, Russia and the UK were of course geopolitical rivals at that time.

It makes you realise that none of this has anything to do with sentiment, shared culture or an attachment to common principles - it is really all about power and making alliances that further your own strategic interests.

and with that said:
Russia and USA don't share a common language.
Russia and USA don't share a common religion .
Those two points are a good reason why Russia will never be accepted into the fold by the west - cryllic and the Russian orthodox church.
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Hugo
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This is an interesting one - Stalin/USSR supported zionism from the end of WWII because he believed that the establishment of an Israeli state would reduce British influence in the middle east and because he also thought it would become a socialist country. I believe that the Soviet Union were the first nation to recognise Israel and Czechoslovakia armed them during the Arab-Israeli war.

https://www.jpost.com/opinion/why-did-s ... ate-649917
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soviet_Un ... i_conflict

This was an anomaly, a complete departure from Stalin's historical opposition towards zionism and the way in which Jews were viewed with deep suspicion by Communists throughout the existence of the Soviet Union. After this brief interlude the Soviets supported Arabs against Israel throughout the rest of the cold war.
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Uncle fester
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Wouldn't be the first anti-Semite to be in favour of Israel as a state.
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Niegs
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A couple of thoughts I had recently...

Why did population explode during the Industrial Era when conditions in cities could be so horrible?

Do you buy the numbers often dropped in ye olde timey history? Was watching something that mentioned Genghis Khan, saying the Mongols killed 10s of millions of people and something like 20000 slaves/soldiers were killed to keep the whereabouts of his grave. Yet western 'cities' around that time didn't seem to have more than modern towns, small 'cities' today.
Lemoentjie
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Niegs wrote: Wed Apr 28, 2021 1:57 pm A couple of thoughts I had recently...

Why did population explode during the Industrial Era when conditions in cities could be so horrible?

Do you buy the numbers often dropped in ye olde timey history? Was watching something that mentioned Genghis Khan, saying the Mongols killed 10s of millions of people and something like 20000 slaves/soldiers were killed to keep the whereabouts of his grave. Yet western 'cities' around that time didn't seem to have more than modern towns, small 'cities' today.
It's mostly due to better food supply. The 'real' birth rate (number of children born - number of children dying) did increase but it's mostly because more people lived longer.

There have only ever been 2 population explosions in human history. The first was when farming was discovered, the second was (is) when farming was mechanised.

Also worth to note that without fertilisers discovered in early 1900s, the world's population could never really have gone past around 2 billion, if I remember well.

This is what Malthusianism is about.
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Can anyone recommend a book on Charles II?
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
Happyhooker
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Slick wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:05 pm Can anyone recommend a book on Charles II?
Antonia Fraser's is pretty solid
Slick
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Happyhooker wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 9:07 pm
Slick wrote: Sat May 08, 2021 7:05 pm Can anyone recommend a book on Charles II?
Antonia Fraser's is pretty solid
Thanks mate, I’ll take a look
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Sandstorm wrote: Fri Nov 20, 2020 8:15 pmWilbur Smith
Without being totally facetious, I believe that The Covenant by James Michener offers an important insight into the Colonisation of Southern Africa.
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Niegs
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Wee bit of rugby history!

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Kiwias
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Niegs wrote: Tue Jun 29, 2021 8:00 pm Wee bit of rugby history!

The concept of offside at rucks and protection of the halfback was not highly developed.
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