737 Max to fly again

[Insane_Homer]

https://www.ismyplanea737max.com/

[weegie01]

I am flying Edinburgh to London at the weekend, Airbus both ways. I never thought I'd actually check the plane type before now.

[Sandstorm]

This just gets worse for Boeing. Thanks IH, interesting blog.

[Sandstorm]

Was booked to fly on an Alaska 737 MAX 9 from LAX in April. I just know the MAX planes are going to get grounded again, probably for something else that is loose...like a wing.

Called them up, they tried to route me via San Francisco. Nope - cancelled. Switched to another airline using Airbus A330.

[fishfoodie]

After doing inspections in the 737 MAX 9's, Boeing evidently turned up more issues, because the FAA have issued another Safety Alert, this time to check the bolts on 737 900ER's, where they've also found loose bolts on door plugs.

[fishfoodie]

The dumpster fire is now more like one of the volcanoes in Iceland, & at anytime it might explode & grow another magnitude

It's now confirmed that none of the securing bolts & castellated nuts were on the door plug !, it was only held in place by the power of prayer.

Boeing also have the records for the work on the RHS door plug, but mysteriously none for the LHS one, which says they have one damn fine safety & audit system !



I don't know how the hell Boeing recovers from this, short of going bankrupt, firing all the management, getting a shitload of money from the taxpayer, & rebuilding from the ground up. They have a rotten quality/safety culture, & the bean counters are responsible, but the bean counters didn't come up with the idea on their own, they were told to cut costs by the CEO, & that was approved by the Board all the way. The Board should also go, & hand back anything they earned in the last decade, because they oversaw this shitshow, & destroyed a lot of shareholders money, which included plenty of Boeing workers pensions.

[fishfoodie]

Boeing has reacted to pressure from everyone, & paused their attempts to certify the 737 MAX - 7, & 737 MAX - 10 versions.

They've been bitten again by their trying to short circuit the approval process, by pretending the completely new engines could just be waved thru with the same controls & training as the ones they had 40 years ago

This time it;s the minor matter of the anti-icing controls causing the engine inlets (now CF not Steel), to be warped so badly that they can explode & potentially rupture the fuselage, or wings. It's hard to know how a Engineering company couldn't work out that CF reacts slightly differently to steel to extremely high temperature gases.

I'm no longer surprised that fuckwit who killed people diving down to the Titanic used Boeing CF techniques.

[petej]

Boeing has reacted to pressure from everyone, & paused their attempts to certify the 737 MAX - 7, & 737 MAX - 10 versions.

They've been bitten again by their trying to short circuit the approval process, by pretending the completely new engines could just be waved thru with the same controls & training as the ones they had 40 years ago

This time it;s the minor matter of the anti-icing controls causing the engine inlets (now CF not Steel), to be warped so badly that they can explode & potentially rupture the fuselage, or wings. It's hard to know how a Engineering company couldn't work out that CF reacts slightly differently to steel to extremely high temperature gases.

I'm no longer surprised that fuckwit who killed people diving down to the Titanic used Boeing CF techniques.

Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

[inactionman]

Boeing has reacted to pressure from everyone, & paused their attempts to certify the 737 MAX - 7, & 737 MAX - 10 versions.

They've been bitten again by their trying to short circuit the approval process, by pretending the completely new engines could just be waved thru with the same controls & training as the ones they had 40 years ago

This time it;s the minor matter of the anti-icing controls causing the engine inlets (now CF not Steel), to be warped so badly that they can explode & potentially rupture the fuselage, or wings. It's hard to know how a Engineering company couldn't work out that CF reacts slightly differently to steel to extremely high temperature gases.

I'm no longer surprised that fuckwit who killed people diving down to the Titanic used Boeing CF techniques.

Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

[fishfoodie]

Boeing has reacted to pressure from everyone, & paused their attempts to certify the 737 MAX - 7, & 737 MAX - 10 versions.

They've been bitten again by their trying to short circuit the approval process, by pretending the completely new engines could just be waved thru with the same controls & training as the ones they had 40 years ago

This time it;s the minor matter of the anti-icing controls causing the engine inlets (now CF not Steel), to be warped so badly that they can explode & potentially rupture the fuselage, or wings. It's hard to know how a Engineering company couldn't work out that CF reacts slightly differently to steel to extremely high temperature gases.

I'm no longer surprised that fuckwit who killed people diving down to the Titanic used Boeing CF techniques.

Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

They use bleed off gases for later stages to heat the inlet. The problem is that the gases are so hot that if they are actually icing,, or the anti-icing switches are left in the on position, within a minute or two the CF can fracture. There are no sensors, so the pilot has to eyeball it continually, & guess.

It comes down to the ridiculous position that they couldn't change the anti-icing buttons at all (on/off), to (on/auto/off), & just install sensors, & still maintain the 737 type rating.

The MAX will go down as the most expensive & catastrophic cost saving exercise ever !

[inactionman]

Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

They use bleed off gases for later stages to heat the inlet. The problem is that the gases are so hot that if they are actually icing,, or the anti-icing switches are left in the on position, within a minute or two the CF can fracture. There are no sensors, so the pilot has to eyeball it continually, & guess.

It comes down to the ridiculous position that they couldn't change the anti-icing buttons at all (on/off), to (on/auto/off), & just install sensors, & still maintain the 737 type rating.

The MAX will go down as the most expensive & catastrophic cost saving exercise ever !

In an era where aerospace companies are doing their utmost to reduce crew workload, that seems utterly mental. It's asking for failure.

I always worried about upgrading a 50 year old design (or is it even older?) as many of the approaches are so dated that they're never going to catch up to current regs. It's still 'cable and pulley' (or whatever hydraulic equivalent is), from what I understand.

Even with that, some decisions are baffling. No anti-icing temp sensor, not alternative sensor (well, it's an optional extra) for the angle of attack sensor that caused all the MCAS issues. Surely someone realised this would end in tears?

[fishfoodie]

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

They use bleed off gases for later stages to heat the inlet. The problem is that the gases are so hot that if they are actually icing,, or the anti-icing switches are left in the on position, within a minute or two the CF can fracture. There are no sensors, so the pilot has to eyeball it continually, & guess.

It comes down to the ridiculous position that they couldn't change the anti-icing buttons at all (on/off), to (on/auto/off), & just install sensors, & still maintain the 737 type rating.

The MAX will go down as the most expensive & catastrophic cost saving exercise ever !

In an era where aerospace companies are doing their utmost to reduce crew workload, that seems utterly mental. It's asking for failure.

I always worried about upgrading a 50 year old design (or is it even older?) as many of the approaches are so dated that they're never going to catch up to current regs. It's still 'cable and pulley' (or whatever hydraulic equivalent is), from what I understand.

Even with that, some decisions are baffling. No anti-icing temp sensor, not alternative sensor (well, it's an optional extra) for the angle of attack sensor that caused all the MCAS issues. Surely someone realised this would end in tears?

I don't think its' that they were unwilling, or unable to add the sensor; it's just that if they added the sensor, they would have had to change the switch in the cockpit to add an auto position (like all modern aircraft), & if they changed that switch, then they would lose the proposition that the aircraft was the same as the old one, & thus the pilots didn't need any retraining.

This was the source of all the subsequent issues; Boeings insistence that pilots wouldn't need to retrain, because it wasn't a new type

[petej]

Inlets and high temperature gases? Outlets surely. Steels a bit heavy surely you mean aluminium or titanium or if properly hot a nickel alloy.

The problem (well, one of many, but the specific one we're talking about here) is with the inlets - the ani-icing system is causing some problems with overheating, which is pushing temperatures beyond the material design limit.

The inlet temps won't be high. I'm not sure if there's some compressor gas bleed-off to run the anti-icing or if it's electrical, but both could get quite hot - although nowhere near hot enough to trouble most metals it seems to be causing issues here. I'm not that familiar with thermal properties of composites but I wouldn't want to be applying too much heat to them.

They use bleed off gases for later stages to heat the inlet. The problem is that the gases are so hot that if they are actually icing,, or the anti-icing switches are left in the on position, within a minute or two the CF can fracture. There are no sensors, so the pilot has to eyeball it continually, & guess.

It comes down to the ridiculous position that they couldn't change the anti-icing buttons at all (on/off), to (on/auto/off), & just install sensors, & still maintain the 737 type rating.

The MAX will go down as the most expensive & catastrophic cost saving exercise ever !

Apologies, I underestimated the sheer idiocy of Boeing.

[Uncle fester]

Whistleblower dies of self inflicted wounds.
Share Message - Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

[laurent]

Whistleblower dies of self inflicted wounds.
Share Message - Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

Did he fall on his pickaxe ?

[Sandstorm]

Whistleblower dies of self inflicted wounds.
Share Message - Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

Did he fall on his pickaxe ?

He and his pickup truck fell out of a upstairs window.

[laurent]

Whistleblower dies of self inflicted wounds.
Share Message - Boeing whistleblower found dead in US
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68534703

Did he fall on his pickaxe ?

He and his pickup truck fell out of a upstairs window.

Vlad is involved only on the superjet window accidents

[inactionman]

Second whistle-blower dies, only 45 years of age.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/ar ... lower-dies

All very unpleasant. No idea of the cause of death, but the situation is surely not making anything any easier - the pressures on these people must be enormous.

[fishfoodie]

Jesus.... H.....Christ !

How bad does it have to get before the shareholders demand the sacking of every manager above a set level, & the cancellation of all benefits for the ones they've sacked over the last few years ?

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68966894

[Enzedder]

Jesus.... H.....Christ !

How bad does it have to get before the shareholders demand the sacking of every manager above a set level, & the cancellation of all benefits for the ones they've sacked over the last few years ?

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68966894

Shit, that is so bad I would not fly Boeing anywhere at the moment, and tell the airlines why.

[Guy Smiley]

holy crap...

holeee crap. Grab that by the handle end and whang it around the head of anyone trying to convince you of the benefits of small government, market self regulation.

[Sandstorm]

holy crap...

holeee crap. Grab that by the handle end and whang it around the head of anyone trying to convince you of the benefits of small government, market self regulation.

Airbus are doing fine in that environment. So are Embraer. And every other small jet manufacturer. Boeing decided to choose cost cutting over safety for maximum shareholder payouts.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Well, senior management payouts. Which depending on remuneration could be the same thing

[petej]

holy crap...

holeee crap. Grab that by the handle end and whang it around the head of anyone trying to convince you of the benefits of small government, market self regulation.

Airbus are doing fine in that environment. So are Embraer. And every other small jet manufacturer. Boeing decided to choose cost cutting over safety for maximum shareholder payouts.

It is about the balance between engineering integrity and safety against management and bean counters. The balance is very clearly wrong at Boeing. The painful thing with being engineering side is no one cares if accidents/issues don't happen and so you'll take the flack if something does or doesn't go wrong. Your holding up delivery of the product, you lack vision, people like you stop the business from making money, this will count against you in your pdr etc.... generally, the engineering safety training is not attended by managers and non-engineering functions.

[Uncle fester]

Jesus.... H.....Christ !

How bad does it have to get before the shareholders demand the sacking of every manager above a set level, & the cancellation of all benefits for the ones they've sacked over the last few years ?

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68966894

Meh, shareholders are complicit as far as I'm concerned.

[fishfoodie]

Jesus.... H.....Christ !

How bad does it have to get before the shareholders demand the sacking of every manager above a set level, & the cancellation of all benefits for the ones they've sacked over the last few years ?

The US has opened a new probe of troubled jet firm Boeing, after the company told air safety regulators that it might not have properly inspected its 787 Dreamliner planes.

The Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) said it would look into whether staff had falsified records.

It said Boeing was reinspecting all 787 jets still on the manufacturing line.

Boeing will be forced to develop an "action plan" to address concerns about planes already in service, it added.

Boeing did not comment.

Internally, it told staff that the "misconduct" had not created an "immediate safety of flight issue", according to a message seen by the Wall Street Journal, which first reported the investigation.

Shares in the company fell more than 1% after the investigation was announced.

...

https://www.bbc.com/news/business-68966894

Meh, shareholders are complicit as far as I'm concerned.

It's not that simple unfortunately.

Look at my bete noir, Tesla; the Board has just dumped the same mega compensation package in front of the shareholders again, despite the Delaware courts calling it a crock of shit.

In the same way that we depend on the Regulators to protect us all from dangerous aircraft, we depend on the FTC to protect shareholders from company boards that are full of mercenaries, & idiots. Once you get to the age of Boeing, you have enough institutional ownership, that proxy votes are a waste of time, because whatever the board puts to the vote & recommends, passes on the nod, & the ordinary shareholder is just a passenger. This is why Boeing decided to ditch quality, & focus on profits because that's what makes the institutional investors happy.

[Uncle fester]

I mean the institutional shareholders.
If they are that short sighted, they deserve everything that comes their way.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

More the boards of the bulk holders who like the board of say Boeing chase the current bonus benchmarks.

Those benchmarks are often rather daft if you had the long term interests of the companies in mind.

[JM2K6]

The Tesla board is literally Musk's best mates and family. Kind of a special case.

[dpedin]

I did some work in an oil company years ago where production was king, keep the oil flowing whatever, etc. The amount of pressure on employees was huge and it was well known that significant risks were taken to make sure the oil kept flowing ... then we had Piper Alpha! Lots of work and research into that horrific incident both technical and human risk factors including management culture etc. They ran a really interesting senior management session called 'Why incredibly bright and clever people do the most stupid and dangerous things', in effect showing the senior guys the consequences of their own actions be it finance, engineering, production, HR, etc. Every function contributed in some way to the disaster that took place, they were all guilty. You could do exactly the same for every major disaster in every industry. Boeing are no different, the experience and research on all of this is absolutely emphatic they know all this yet ignored it and took managerial decisions that would lead to a catastrophic outcome. Ignorance is no excuse for what is in effect corporate manslaughter!

[inactionman]

I did some work in an oil company years ago where production was king, keep the oil flowing whatever, etc. The amount of pressure on employees was huge and it was well known that significant risks were taken to make sure the oil kept flowing ... then we had Piper Alpha! Lots of work and research into that horrific incident both technical and human risk factors including management culture etc. They ran a really interesting senior management session called 'Why incredibly bright and clever people do the most stupid and dangerous things', in effect showing the senior guys the consequences of their own actions be it finance, engineering, production, HR, etc. Every function contributed in some way to the disaster that took place, they were all guilty. You could do exactly the same for every major disaster in every industry. Boeing are no different, the experience and research on all of this is absolutely emphatic they know all this yet ignored it and took managerial decisions that would lead to a catastrophic outcome. Ignorance is no excuse for what is in effect corporate manslaughter!

One of the things that comes through clearly in cases of air accidents is that most such accidents are caused by an unfortunate chaining of much smaller mistakes and misjudgements, each of which might seem almost trivial but each of which contribute.

Boeing adding to the 'pot of small failures' does not help, of course, but it should be understood by all involved that issues caused at any layer of the business can chain all the way into air accidents. Rushing past safety checks, concealing changes to flight control authority, all sorts of things that might seem small (although I'm not sure I characterise the whole MCAS fiasco as 'small') but each of which increases probability of failure.

[Torquemada 1420]

You knew how shit it had got when the uberest of cost cutters (Lying Air) was sending its own staff to oversee Boeing's quality control.

I still do a lot of stuff in the engineering side of aviation and the number of people who have said they will actively avoid flying Boeing is startling.