737 Max to fly again

[Torquemada 1420]

One wonders how many will fly again in a post COVID world. A lot has changed in 20 months and carrying capacity requirement likely to be massively reduced for years.

[Sandstorm]

Cool. I will wait until I’m on board, then say ‘I ain’t getting on no 737 Max plane, fool !’ And unless they give me some laced milk, they will have to offload me and my luggage and incur delays. This, repeated by all the other customers who won’t fly on they plane, should make them think before ordering an unproven death trap .

[Yeeb]

One wonders how many will fly again in a post COVID world. A lot has changed in 20 months and carrying capacity requirement likely to be massively reduced for years.

Exactly - no need to fly on dodgy planes or airlines now, as only the better ones will be left (and at about x5 the price)

[Torquemada 1420]

One wonders how many will fly again in a post COVID world. A lot has changed in 20 months and carrying capacity requirement likely to be massively reduced for years.

Exactly - no need to fly on dodgy planes or airlines now, as only the better ones will be left (and at about x5 the price)

No more oiks en route to Ibiza.

Hey. Some upsides after all. And might help save the planet too.

[Saint]

Inside 3 years passenger numbers will exceed pre-covid levels. That's not even a controversial assessment. I could easily see it hitting that number 18 months from now

[Yeeb]

Inside 3 years passenger numbers will exceed pre-covid levels. That's not even a controversial assessment. I could easily see it hitting that number 18 months from now

How many airlines will survive 3 years if they make a 5.1bill loss in a quarter like IAG did?
They have started selling off their artwork in their HQ, doesn’t seem a rosy picture there.

Shame I will forget this thread in 3 mins let alone 3 years as will be interesting to see if you are right.

[Saint]

Inside 3 years passenger numbers will exceed pre-covid levels. That's not even a controversial assessment. I could easily see it hitting that number 18 months from now

How many airlines will survive 3 years if they make a 5.1bill loss in a quarter like IAG did?
They have started selling off their artwork in their HQ, doesn’t seem a rosy picture there.

Shame I will forget this thread in 3 mins let alone 3 years as will be interesting to see if you are right.

Other airlines will fill the gap if any go under.

[Yeeb]

Inside 3 years passenger numbers will exceed pre-covid levels. That's not even a controversial assessment. I could easily see it hitting that number 18 months from now

How many airlines will survive 3 years if they make a 5.1bill loss in a quarter like IAG did?
They have started selling off their artwork in their HQ, doesn’t seem a rosy picture there.

Shame I will forget this thread in 3 mins let alone 3 years as will be interesting to see if you are right.

Other airlines will fill the gap if any go under.

Am always nervous with these ‘market will fill the gap’ type assured statements , as they always have consequences. If large airlines are selling the family silver to survive , then smaller ones must be having it worse ?
Ryanair filling the gap with its rebranded 737-8200’s doesn’t exactly inspire me tbh

[Saint]

How many airlines will survive 3 years if they make a 5.1bill loss in a quarter like IAG did?
They have started selling off their artwork in their HQ, doesn’t seem a rosy picture there.

Shame I will forget this thread in 3 mins let alone 3 years as will be interesting to see if you are right.

Other airlines will fill the gap if any go under.

Am always nervous with these ‘market will fill the gap’ type assured statements , as they always have consequences. If large airlines are selling the family silver to survive , then smaller ones must be having it worse ?
Ryanair filling the gap with its rebranded 737-8200’s doesn’t exactly inspire me tbh

There's plenty of airlines globally on state sponsored life support currently. Whether the UK has a "national" airline on the other side of this is fairly immaterial to whether or not there will be capacity for passenger numbers

[Torquemada 1420]

Inside 3 years passenger numbers will exceed pre-covid levels. That's not even a controversial assessment. I could easily see it hitting that number 18 months from now

Doubt it. The damage to people's wallets as well as to the leisure industry as whole is going to curtail the potential traveller base heavily. And unless Govts are going to be subsidising airlines even more, then prices will have to rise along with a rationalisation of services.

[Torquemada 1420]

There's plenty of airlines globally on state sponsored life support currently. Whether the UK has a "national" airline on the other side of this is fairly immaterial to whether or not there will be capacity for passenger numbers

They all are. The difference this time is going to be the capacity of Govts to keep subsidising when the coffers are bare and the millions unemployed in other sectors see jollying around the world a luxury for the elite.

[Yeeb]

There's plenty of airlines globally on state sponsored life support currently. Whether the UK has a "national" airline on the other side of this is fairly immaterial to whether or not there will be capacity for passenger numbers

They all are. The difference this time is going to be the capacity of Govts to keep subsidising when the coffers are bare and the millions unemployed in other sectors see jollying around the world a luxury for the elite.

I know you are a plane nut, but are all airlines state sponsored ? Thought BA famously was profitable without government funds - or do you mean indirects and friendly taxation ?

[Torquemada 1420]

There's plenty of airlines globally on state sponsored life support currently. Whether the UK has a "national" airline on the other side of this is fairly immaterial to whether or not there will be capacity for passenger numbers

They all are. The difference this time is going to be the capacity of Govts to keep subsidising when the coffers are bare and the millions unemployed in other sectors see jollying around the world a luxury for the elite.

I know you are a plane nut, but are all airlines state sponsored ? Thought BA famously was profitable without government funds - or do you mean indirects and friendly taxation ?

Yes: I was including the latter such as airport discounts, subsidies to new routes etc I think it's still illegal under EC competition law to subsidise airlines but I think most national carriers are getting handouts which sidestep the rules.

Here's a classic
https://airlinegeeks.com/2020/04/27/klm ... subsidies/

[Torquemada 1420]

BA is getting desperate. You can help out here
https://www.whatabuy.co.uk/british-airways.html

[Yeeb]

BA is getting desperate. You can help out here
https://www.whatabuy.co.uk/british-airways.html

Might buy a hostess uniform for the wife

[Saint]

EASA approves 737max with what looks to be a significant retraining requirement

[tc27]

Ryanair have ordered 75

[Dogbert]

Yet another reason not to Fly Ryanair

[Saint]

No. Ryanair have ordered 75 additional 737-8200. I'm fairly sure they'll sue if you suggest that they've ordered ANY 737-Max

[Yeeb]

A friend tells me if you search for Simonegdoll instagram, you will find an interesting website of a Ryanair hostess who has an unfortunate allergy to clothes that has caused her chest to swell

[tc27]

A friend tells me if you search for Simonegdoll instagram, you will find an interesting website of a Ryanair hostess who has an unfortunate allergy to clothes that has caused her chest to swell

A few of my married/long term relationship mates keep some 'contingency' follows in Instagram going.

[tc27]

No. Ryanair have ordered 75 additional 737-8200. I'm fairly sure they'll sue if you suggest that they've ordered ANY 737-Max

I shall expect a visit from Derek Noble soon.

[Enzedder]

I cannot get medical insurance for less than the cost of the plane and hotel where I am staying - so I am not overly bothered about the Max (unless the kids/grandkids are flying and then I don't want them in a Boeing)

[Lemoentjie]

Reuters:

Boeing officials “inappropriately coached” test pilots during recertification efforts after two fatal 737 MAX crashes killed 346 people, according to a lengthy congressional report released on Friday.

The report from the Senate Commerce Committee Republican staff raised questions about testing this year of a key safety system known as MCAS tied to both fatal crashes was contrary to proper protocol.

The committee concluded Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) and Boeing officials “had established a pre-determined outcome to reaffirm a long-held human factor assumption related to pilot reaction time ... It appears, in this instance, FAA and Boeing were attempting to cover up important information that may have contributed to the 737 MAX tragedies.”

The report citing a whistleblower who alleged Boeing officials encouraged test pilots to “remember, get right on that pickle switch” prior to the exercise that resulted in pilot reaction in approximately four seconds, while another pilot in a separate test reacted in approximately 16 seconds.

The account was corroborated during an FAA staff interview, the committee added.

Numerous reports have found Boeing failed to adequately consider how pilots respond to cockpit emergencies in its development of the 737 MAX.

Boeing said Friday it takes “seriously the committee’s findings and will continue to review the report in full.”

The FAA said Friday it was “carefully reviewing the document, which the committee acknowledges contains a number of unsubstantiated allegations.”

The agency added it is “confident that the safety issues that played a role in the tragic (737 MAX) accidents involving Lion Air Flight 610 and Ethiopian Airlines Flight 302 have been addressed through the design changes required and independently approved by the FAA and its partners.”

Senate Commerce Committee chairman Roger Wicker said the report “details a number of significant examples of lapses in aviation safety oversight and failed leadership in the FAA.”

The committee also said “multiple independent whistleblowers contacted the committee to allege FAA senior management was complicit in determining the 737 MAX training certification level prior to any evaluation.”

Boeing resisted requiring simulator training for pilots before operating the 737 MAX but reversed course in January.

The report also noted Southwest Airlines was able to operate more than 150,000 flights carrying 17.2 million passengers on jets without confirmation that required maintenance had been completed.

The Senate report said the Southwest flights “put millions of passengers at potential risk.” Southwest said Friday it was aware of the report and added “we do not tolerate any relaxing of standards that govern ultimate safety across our operation.”

Boeing still faces an ongoing criminal probe into the MAX. The committee said its review was “constrained due to the continued criminal investigation”

Last month, the FAA approved the 737 MAX’s return to service and flights have resumed in Brazil. The first U.S. 737 MAX commercial flight with paying passengers is set for Dec. 29.

Bolded the key parts

[Lemoentjie]

Like I've said before, there is way too much money invested in the 737 max for it to be treated objectively and fairly by the FAA and Boeing. Good job by the US Senate for investigating this at least.

[Torquemada 1420]

Airline safety is like Govts. People place an almost blind faith in their safety.

[Lemoentjie]

True

[Guy Smiley]

Airline safety is like Govts. People place an almost blind faith in their safety.

What’s the alternative?

[Torquemada 1420]

Airline safety is like Govts. People place an almost blind faith in their safety.

What’s the alternative?

Never take for granted what your life is reliant upon? I never trust a climbing rope I don't know.

[fishfoodie]

Airline safety is like Govts. People place an almost blind faith in their safety.

What’s the alternative?

You/We, end up trusting to a capitalist system; where companies, & their management, will be punished by that system,severely; if they fail to maintain standards.

Unfortunately; as we've see regularly; the system doesn't give a fuck how many people die; as long as the stock price doesn't suffer; & if they need a sacrificial goat; they give them their golden parachute & throw them out the door. The Ex Boeing CEO isn't going to do any gaol time; & neither is anyone else; & yet a number of people did because of VWgate.

Communism might not have many positive things to say about it; but when they put melamine in baby formula; they lined the fuckers responsible in front of a wall & shot them; & then send their families the bill for the bullet.

[Guy Smiley]

Airline safety is like Govts. People place an almost blind faith in their safety.

What’s the alternative?

Never take for granted what your life is reliant upon? I never trust a climbing rope I don't know.

I used to get nervous flying, then it became a regular aspect of my life. I don’t see an alternative to trusting process, although I accept human error as a potential. I guess we calculate the odds and proceed accordingly.

Some people just don’t fly.

I work in an industry some claim to be (within Australia at least) under regulatory standards second only to the aviation industry. It’s a potentially high risk endeavour and procedures / processes are in place to reduce or control those risks. I’ve learnt to trust those processes. Human error is a reality there though, and the industry still experiences fatalities in the workplace.

I disagree with you on the ‘blind faith’ aspect. Yes, people at large are complacent and take things for granted. Driving is dangerous and people still allow distractions while doing it. Some trust governments implicitly but I think even a rudimentary look at social media these days would show that is rapidly diminishing.

It’s not so much about blind faith as it is about expediency and gratification, in my view.

[fishfoodie]

I work in an industry some claim to be (within Australia at least) under regulatory standards second only to the aviation industry.

It’s a potentially high risk endeavour and procedures / processes are in place to reduce or control those risks. I’ve learnt to trust those processes. Human error is a reality there though, and the industry still experiences fatalities in the workplace.
ation, in my view.

That's one of those little, throw away comments that irks.

Back in the day; before shuttles started blowing up, or falling apart; industries used to compare their standards to NASA.

I remember being in college & a wily lecturer reminding us of the different comfort levels for Safety Factors for Engineers in different disciplines. In Civil, they were used to dealing with SF in the n^2, in mechanical it was n^1; but poor old aviation had to live in in 1.1-2 world.

In practical terms; this meant that a civil engineer was able to spec an I-Beam to have a tens of times more metal in it, than it should ever need; & mechanical, could put a couple more times more metal that that spring in your car needs; but an aviation engineer can add a few more tenths of metal in that wing spar; than it needs before it fails.

Aviation is the most demanding of all engineering disciplines, & the only way to be safe is for management to support this necessity; & for regulations to stop the corporate scum from killing people.

[Guy Smiley]

Sure.

Underground mining is a picnic.

[Sandstorm]

Sure.

Underground mining is a picnic.

The view sux.

[Kawazaki]

I used to date a woman who had a brother who worked in the Kalgoorlie mines. We visited him, back in 2002 and stayed at his place in Freemantle. I remember him telling me that Perth had the highest educated taxi drivers in the world - loads of them were mining engineers with Masters and PhDs driving cabs until they could get a contract in Kalgoorlie. I don't know if that is normal or 2002 was a particularly lean time for Australian mining?

[‘tsek]

Sure.
Underground mining is a picnic.

I feel you brother.

[‘tsek]

I used to date a woman who had a brother who worked in the Kalgoorlie mines. We visited him, back in 2002 and stayed at his place in Freemantle. I remember him telling me that Perth had the highest educated taxi drivers in the world - loads of them were mining engineers with Masters and PhDs driving cabs until they could get a contract in Kalgoorlie. I don't know if that is normal or 2002 was a particularly lean time for Australian mining?

Afrikaans accents?

[Guy Smiley]

I used to date a woman who had a brother who worked in the Kalgoorlie mines. We visited him, back in 2002 and stayed at his place in Freemantle. I remember him telling me that Perth had the highest educated taxi drivers in the world - loads of them were mining engineers with Masters and PhDs driving cabs until they could get a contract in Kalgoorlie. I don't know if that is normal or 2002 was a particularly lean time for Australian mining?

Firstly, you stayed in Fremantle.

Kalgoorlie is a town surrounded my mining activity and it’s associated support industries. Everyone there is either working for a mining company or probably trying to... although there’s a fair slice of recent immigrants making a decent fist of things without bothering to try and break into what is a pretty closed shop. It’s still very true that you have to know someone in the game to get a start.

2002... I don’t remember. That was before I started in the game... I think that was a lull period before the massive boom exploded that saw the industry get ridiculously over heated. The massive construction projects that helped fuel the labour boom were also yet to start in earnest back then.

Fremantle was in a slump of sorts then too... still a decent place to stay for a while. I hope you were there in summer Toga, it’s at its best in the warm months. We might have bumped into each other

[Bullet]

Sure.

Underground mining is a picnic.

Can see the safety concerns driving regulations but without the drive for weight saving the engineering aspect is totally different and not comparable.

[Guy Smiley]

Sure.

Underground mining is a picnic.

Can see the safety concerns driving regulations but without the drive for weight saving the engineering aspect is totally different and not comparable.

I’m not trying to compare the industries or the engineering standards. I was trying to illustrate the experience of working within a heavily regulated field and the way human reaction or error can still be a factor. The context was talking about having blind faith in politics and airlines.