The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

Players talk about being sort of 'battle-hardened', like there's only so much you can prepare your body for the impacts of games, at a certain point only playing and getting hit trains your body in the right way.

Manu spends so much time on the sidelines that he can't possibly be in that state and then you start him in two of the most physical games of Sale's season before sending him into England camp and Eddie's notoriously tough training...


I also reckon he's a combo of too big for his frame and bearing the result of being used as a battering ram in senior rugby since he was 18 years old.

Have you seen pictures of Manu Tuilagi when he was playing for England u16s? He's always been massive. I think he's about 110kgs which is not excessive for his frame.

Sanderson said recently they've had to stop him doing too much work in the gym because he gets massive too easily. While he's clearly a big guy who can carry a fair amount, I think there's still a point where he's too big and exerting enough power to really challenge his tendons/ligaments past their ideal load. They haven't said what this was, but his last couple of big injuries were achilles and groin.

[Slick]

Yes, but he's cut three killer lines in three years for England so he's a shoo in.

Nearer 10 years, but anyway.

I love the punishment handed out to Tom Youngs for abusing the ref - a reffing course and must officate some junior games. There should be a lot more of that

[Margin__Walker]

Yes, but he's cut three killer lines in three years for England so he's a shoo in.

Nearer 10 years, but anyway.

I love the punishment handed out to Tom Youngs for abusing the ref - a reffing course and must officate some junior games. There should be a lot more of that

That's pretty cool. First time I've seen them do that

[Hal Jordan]

Yes, but he's cut three killer lines in three years for England so he's a shoo in.

Nearer 10 years, but anyway.

I love the punishment handed out to Tom Youngs for abusing the ref - a reffing course and must officate some junior games. There should be a lot more of that

Attending an academic course? Truly a cruel and unusual punishment for a Youngs brother.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Yes, but he's cut three killer lines in three years for England so he's a shoo in.

Nearer 10 years, but anyway.

I love the punishment handed out to Tom Youngs for abusing the ref - a reffing course and must officate some junior games. There should be a lot more of that

Attending an academic course? Truly a cruel and unusual punishment for a Youngs brother.

[Margin__Walker]

U20s for Scotland tomorrow. Same backline, with some rotation in the forwards. Quirke onto the bench. Looking forward to seeing Haffar if he makes it off the bench. He can be pretty fun to watch.

ENGLAND U20 XV
15 Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby)
14 Deago Bailey (Bristol Rugby)
13 Jack Bates (Bristol Rugby)
12 Dan Lancaster (Leeds Tykes)
11 Arthur Relton (Exeter Chiefs)
10 Fin Smith (Worcester Warriors)
9 Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers) (C)

1 Phil Brantingham (Newcastle Falcons)
2 Sam Riley (Harlequins)
3 Harvey Kindell-Beaton (Saracens)
4 Ewan Richards (Bath Rugby)
5 Alex Groves (Bristol Bears)
6 Emeka Ilione (Leicester Tigers)
7 Lucas Brooke (London Irish)
8 Jack Clement (Gloucester Rugby)

REPLACEMENTS
16 John Stewart (Bath Rugby)
17 Tarek Haffar (London Irish)
18 Luke Green (London Irish)
19 Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)
20 Harry Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
21 Nahum Merigan (Bath Rugby)
22 Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)
23 Tommy Mathews (unattached)
24 Phil Cokanasiga (London Irish)
25 Tom Litchfield (Northampton Saints)
26 Charlie Atkinson (Wasps)

[sockwithaticket]

It'll be interesting to see how they start this one. Without knowing much about this particular crop of Scots, they're not typically that strong at age group level, so I wouldn't expect our boys to find themselves in a hole as they did against France. The depth of that hole may possibly have brought the best out of them, though.

[sockwithaticket]

Miles Reid has fracture something in his face, so he's gooooone from the England squad

[JM2K6]

Miles Reid has fracture something in his face, so he's gooooone from the England squad

Poor guy.


How could anyone tell?

[Margin__Walker]

It'll be interesting to see how they start this one. Without knowing much about this particular crop of Scots, they're not typically that strong at age group level, so I wouldn't expect our boys to find themselves in a hole as they did against France. The depth of that hole may possibly have brought the best out of them, though.

I think I heard that we beat them fairly comfortably in the behind closed door warm up. May have made that up and not sure it necessarily always translates to the real thing.

[sockwithaticket]

Miles Reid has fracture something in his face, so he's gooooone from the England squad

Poor guy.


How could anyone tell?

Yeah... without wishing to be unduly unkind, he's an odd looking chap. Cheeks and brows already look swollen.


Eddie will probably wait 'til after the Prem final to announce a replacement. Anyone called in now would have, what, 1 day of training? Certainly wouldn't be in the running for the Scotland A game this weekend given that Ludlam, Ludlow, Curry and Underhill are around.

[JM2K6]

Can't believe they've picked Carley to ref the final (and Dickson as an AR!). Is Luke Pearce ill? Did Exeter and Quins piss off the RFU again?

[ASMO]

Can't believe they've picked Carley to ref the final (and Dickson as an AR!). Is Luke Pearce ill? Did Exeter and Quins piss off the RFU again?

Carley is still several magnitudes better than Dixon mind

[sockwithaticket]

Pearce wasn't involved in either semi even as an AR, so maybe something is up with him.

The officials for the Sharks - Chiefs semi were astonishingly low tier.

Referee: Tom Foley
Assistant Referees: Jack Makepeace & Anthony Woodthorpe.
TMO: Craig Maxwell-Keys.

The ARs in particular are huge question marks. You'd have thought every single official in the semis could be one of the frontline refs, let alone the final.

Do they pick straws or something?

[sockwithaticket]

Can't believe they've picked Carley to ref the final (and Dickson as an AR!). Is Luke Pearce ill? Did Exeter and Quins piss off the RFU again?

Carley is still several magnitudes better than Dixon mind

*Dickson, but yes.

[JM2K6]

Pearce wasn't involved in either semi even as an AR, so maybe something is up with him.

The officials for the Sharks - Chiefs semi were astonishingly low tier.

Referee: Tom Foley
Assistant Referees: Jack Makepeace & Anthony Woodthorpe.
TMO: Craig Maxwell-Keys.

The ARs in particular are huge question marks. You'd have thought every single official in the semis could be one of the frontline refs, let alone the final.

Do they pick straws or something?

Pearce did the Championship final

[Kawazaki]

Is Carley the ref who struggles to have any empathy with the players? Tends to be a bit anal?

Triffic.

[sockwithaticket]

Pearce wasn't involved in either semi even as an AR, so maybe something is up with him.

The officials for the Sharks - Chiefs semi were astonishingly low tier.

Referee: Tom Foley
Assistant Referees: Jack Makepeace & Anthony Woodthorpe.
TMO: Craig Maxwell-Keys.

The ARs in particular are huge question marks. You'd have thought every single official in the semis could be one of the frontline refs, let alone the final.

Do they pick straws or something?

Pearce did the Championship final

Ah, missed that. If there is something wrong then it doesn't go that far back.

[geordie_6]

U20s for Scotland tomorrow. Same backline, with some rotation in the forwards. Quirke onto the bench. Looking forward to seeing Haffar if he makes it off the bench. He can be pretty fun to watch.

ENGLAND U20 XV
15 Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby)
14 Deago Bailey (Bristol Rugby)
13 Jack Bates (Bristol Rugby)
12 Dan Lancaster (Leeds Tykes)
11 Arthur Relton (Exeter Chiefs)
10 Fin Smith (Worcester Warriors)
9 Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers) (C)

1 Phil Brantingham (Newcastle Falcons)
2 Sam Riley (Harlequins)
3 Harvey Kindell-Beaton (Saracens)
4 Ewan Richards (Bath Rugby)
5 Alex Groves (Bristol Bears)
6 Emeka Ilione (Leicester Tigers)
7 Lucas Brooke (London Irish)
8 Jack Clement (Gloucester Rugby)

REPLACEMENTS
16 John Stewart (Bath Rugby)
17 Tarek Haffar (London Irish)
18 Luke Green (London Irish)
19 Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)
20 Harry Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
21 Nahum Merigan (Bath Rugby)
22 Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)
23 Tommy Mathews (unattached)
24 Phil Cokanasiga (London Irish)
25 Tom Litchfield (Northampton Saints)
26 Charlie Atkinson (Wasps)

Is this one streamed anywhere do we know?

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah. England rugby Youtube and Facebook I believe.

[geordie_6]

Champion, thanks mate.

[Niegs]

U20s for Scotland tomorrow. Same backline, with some rotation in the forwards. Quirke onto the bench. Looking forward to seeing Haffar if he makes it off the bench. He can be pretty fun to watch.

ENGLAND U20 XV
15 Orlando Bailey (Bath Rugby)
14 Deago Bailey (Bristol Rugby)
13 Jack Bates (Bristol Rugby)
12 Dan Lancaster (Leeds Tykes)
11 Arthur Relton (Exeter Chiefs)
10 Fin Smith (Worcester Warriors)
9 Jack van Poortvliet (Leicester Tigers) (C)

1 Phil Brantingham (Newcastle Falcons)
2 Sam Riley (Harlequins)
3 Harvey Kindell-Beaton (Saracens)
4 Ewan Richards (Bath Rugby)
5 Alex Groves (Bristol Bears)
6 Emeka Ilione (Leicester Tigers)
7 Lucas Brooke (London Irish)
8 Jack Clement (Gloucester Rugby)

REPLACEMENTS
16 John Stewart (Bath Rugby)
17 Tarek Haffar (London Irish)
18 Luke Green (London Irish)
19 Arthur Clark (Gloucester Rugby)
20 Harry Taylor (Gloucester Rugby)
21 Nahum Merigan (Bath Rugby)
22 Raffi Quirke (Sale Sharks)
23 Tommy Mathews (unattached)
24 Phil Cokanasiga (London Irish)
25 Tom Litchfield (Northampton Saints)
26 Charlie Atkinson (Wasps)

Lanny Bomber's boy in the 12 shirt?

[Margin__Walker]

Yep. The midfield were pretty quiet against France, so we'll hopefully see a little more from them tomorrow

[JM2K6]

The current Sale squad has about 3x as many South Africans as the 2012 era Saracens squad did. And worse, the Sale ones are already capped so no chance of them playing for England like many did at Saracens.

Why do you do this?

Sale have 11 Saffers. Saracens squad for the 2011/12 season - 11 Saffers. But yes, Botha and Barritt did play for England, leaving plenty who didn't.

Nils Mordt declared and played for England 7s.

Melk, Du Plessis and Jouber all declared for England but didn't get picked. Jono Ross declared later.

Think only about 3 or 4 capped in the squad with no chance of ever playing for England.

(Copied my reply to the England rugby thread)

My apologies, I forgot Mordt was a Saffer, though he wouldn't really be anyone's idea of an import. Still, you count him, so I shall: Saracens 12 to Sale's 11, then.

So Mordt played 7s, and Barritt and Botha played for England in XVs, the sport we're talking about. Jono Ross counts for both Sale & Saracens. Who is Melk? (edit: Oh, Melck. Vaguely remember him)

edit: Also IIRC it was years before Joubert was eligible, long after that 2011/12 period. Dunno about PdP.

[sockwithaticket]

As far as I'm aware, most of them weren't qualified when they came over. 3 year residency poaches always feel dirty. Botha was here for ages, plugging away in the Championship while Barritt qualified through parentage iirc. Sets them aside from the likes of Joubert and Rhodes for me.

[Kawazaki]

As far as I'm aware, most of them weren't qualified when they came over. 3 year residency poaches always feel dirty.

They may feel 'dirty' but players like Tuilagi, Barritt, the Vunipolas etc have been some of the finest players for England in the last decade. I've never seen a braver player in an England shirt than Brad Barritt either, regardless of where they were born.

Point is, the Sale team offers none of these potential benefits to England rugby by employing capped players.

[JM2K6]

Also, to be clear, I'm not at all comfortable with Sale turning into Soweto-of-the-North either. They're not making a big noise about it and haven't unceremoniously ended the careers of a bunch of players who deserved better, but I certainly think it's fair to be critical of them. I just know Brazil has decent punch technique.

Much like Saracens at the time it appears they're developing a bunch of good young talent there, even if Ashman is heading to the Scots. Langdon, Rodd, Quirke, Curry x2, Nield, Reed, James x2 (okay I only rate one of them) is strong work.


(Also would like to point out I didn't include Matt Stevens as a Saffer either...)

[Kawazaki]

Why do you do this?

Sale have 11 Saffers. Saracens squad for the 2011/12 season - 11 Saffers. But yes, Botha and Barritt did play for England, leaving plenty who didn't.

Nils Mordt declared and played for England 7s.

Melk, Du Plessis and Jouber all declared for England but didn't get picked. Jono Ross declared later.

Think only about 3 or 4 capped in the squad with no chance of ever playing for England.

(Copied my reply to the England rugby thread)

My apologies, I forgot Mordt was a Saffer, though he wouldn't really be anyone's idea of an import. Still, you count him, so I shall: Saracens 12 to Sale's 11, then.

So Mordt played 7s, and Barritt and Botha played for England in XVs, the sport we're talking about. Jono Ross counts for both Sale & Saracens. Who is Melk?

edit: Also IIRC it was years before Joubert was eligible, long after that 2011/12 period. Dunno about PdP.

Counting in your head. Careful now.

[JM2K6]

As far as I'm aware, most of them weren't qualified when they came over. 3 year residency poaches always feel dirty.

They may feel 'dirty' but players like Tuilagi, Barritt, the Vunipolas etc have been some of the finest players for England in the last decade. I've never seen a braver player in an England shirt than Brad Barritt either, regardless of where they were born.

Point is, the Sale team offers none of these potential benefits to England rugby by employing capped players.

Everyone's view on this is different. Certainly I view most ofthe likes of those guys as different to people like James Lowe or Riki Flutey. Less about place of birth and more about where you grew up & played your rugby. So Brad Barritt, having played for the Sharks & Emerging Springboks, is a different story to Manu Tuilagi.

Barritt was at the time an excellent defensive centre and one of the bravest, though I suspect were he not a Saracen you'd acknowledge that his attacking game was lacking for an international centre. At the time he was the best option.

[JM2K6]

Nils Mordt declared and played for England 7s.

Melk, Du Plessis and Jouber all declared for England but didn't get picked. Jono Ross declared later.

Think only about 3 or 4 capped in the squad with no chance of ever playing for England.

(Copied my reply to the England rugby thread)

My apologies, I forgot Mordt was a Saffer, though he wouldn't really be anyone's idea of an import. Still, you count him, so I shall: Saracens 12 to Sale's 11, then.

So Mordt played 7s, and Barritt and Botha played for England in XVs, the sport we're talking about. Jono Ross counts for both Sale & Saracens. Who is Melk?

edit: Also IIRC it was years before Joubert was eligible, long after that 2011/12 period. Dunno about PdP.

Counting in your head. Careful now.

Shall we revisit your "three times as many Saffers" claim or do you just want to pretend that you never said that?

[ASMO]

A Team announced

[Kawazaki]

(Copied my reply to the England rugby thread)

My apologies, I forgot Mordt was a Saffer, though he wouldn't really be anyone's idea of an import. Still, you count him, so I shall: Saracens 12 to Sale's 11, then.

So Mordt played 7s, and Barritt and Botha played for England in XVs, the sport we're talking about. Jono Ross counts for both Sale & Saracens. Who is Melk?

edit: Also IIRC it was years before Joubert was eligible, long after that 2011/12 period. Dunno about PdP.

Counting in your head. Careful now.

Shall we revisit your "three times as many Saffers" claim or do you just want to pretend that you is never said that?

3 capped Saracens South Africans is 3x less than 9 capped Sale South Africans.

[JM2K6]

A Team announced

Poor bloody Dan Robson

Is Kelly any good? Ludlow as captain is an interesting call.

[Hells Bells]

Like the look of that team, exciting back line and a balanced pack.

Wonder how much the team will change for the next 2 games?

[Brazil]

A Team announced

What did Genge get the Victoria Cross for?

[JM2K6]

Counting in your head. Careful now.

Shall we revisit your "three times as many Saffers" claim or do you just want to pretend that you is never said that?

3 capped Saracens South Africans is 3x less than 9 capped Sale South Africans.

Cool story. This is what you actually claimed though

The current Sale squad has about 3x as many South Africans as the 2012 era Saracens squad did. And worse, the Sale ones are already capped so no chance of them playing for England like many did at Saracens.

It wasn't "the Sale squad has 3x more capped Saffas than the Saracens squad", given the very next sentence includes uncapped Saffers in the number. Nice try.

Anyway, according to the Sarries board at the time, it's 5 capped Saracens Saffers: Carstens, Brits, Smit, Hougaard, De Kock, and then the bonus Namibian Burger

[JM2K6]

A Team announced

What did Genge get the Victoria Cross for?

If I read the Tigers board correctly, picking up a near-fatal yellow card for twatting a Quins players in the head in a cleanout.

[Kawazaki]

A Team announced

Dan Kelly?

Edit: just looked him up (genuinely hadn't heard of him!). Clearly an anti-Irish poach selection. Never expect to see his name on an England team sheet ever again. A pity for him.

[JM2K6]

Good to see the Malins winger experiment continue, actually. There's been one or two games where I feel he was a bit wasted there for Bris, but I think it's a decent option for him and increases his chances of being an England regular - and keeps him away from the high ball barrage which I suspect is going to be a weakness for a while.

[Hells Bells]

Underhill (concussion) and Dingwall (calf) are both injured as well from training so that’s 4 players broken so far in camp.