The Official English Rugby Thread

[geordie_6]

Disappointed to see Cokanasiga in there ahead of other guys who've performed much, much better over the season.

Only reason I can think is that he retains a focus on having a heavy carrying option in the backs somewhere.

[Niegs]

VPF having a poor game, some really slow and inaccurate service. On the plus side, defence very solid. What is it with England sides who have to have everything set up perfectly at a ruck before releasing the ball by which time the defence are just ready and waiting.

Taking the ball standing still in a pod that’s likely just hitting it up so defence can target it and repeat the cycle.

... this sort of thing enrages me but also makes me wonder if I’m in some kind of Twilight Zone. “Back in the 90s, coach said to run onto the ball and keep the tempo up so the defence didn’t have time to get set up. Why do modern pros do the opposite?”

[sockwithaticket]

Disappointed to see Cokanasiga in there ahead of other guys who've performed much, much better over the season.

Only reason I can think is that he retains a focus on having a heavy carrying option in the backs somewhere.

Yeah, Eddie's long been obsessed with getting size into the back line somewhere. Which is fine, a good big 'un beats a small little 'un and all that, but if your big 'un still has some pretty substantial flaws in their game and is in poor form after a long spell of injury then maybe it's not the best idea.

Possible Wasps bias, but if you want a big lad in there, toss Bassett a cap. He's young enough to make it to 2023 as a live option, so it's not wasted. Alternatively, don't jettison Hassell-Collins from the squad. Neither are as big as Joe C, but they aren't small and they're better players right now.

[Kawazaki]

VPF having a poor game, some really slow and inaccurate service. On the plus side, defence very solid. What is it with England sides who have to have everything set up perfectly at a ruck before releasing the ball by which time the defence are just ready and waiting.

Taking the ball standing still in a pod that’s likely just hitting it up so defence can target it and repeat the cycle.

... this sort of thing enrages me but also makes me wonder if I’m in some kind of Twilight Zone. “Back in the 90s, coach said to run onto the ball and keep the tempo up so the defence didn’t have time to get set up. Why do modern pros do the opposite?”

They're trained to play to patterns which require certain players to be in place before they progress from phase to phase. If a player carried the ball up before he had player(s) to go up to the line with him to clear out and then got turned over he'd get bollocked by the coach.

Over-coached basically.

[Kawazaki]

Disappointed to see Cokanasiga in there ahead of other guys who've performed much, much better over the season.

Only reason I can think is that he retains a focus on having a heavy carrying option in the backs somewhere.

Yeah, Eddie's long been obsessed with getting size into the back line somewhere. Which is fine, a good big 'un beats a small little 'un and all that, but if your big 'un still has some pretty substantial flaws in their game and is in poor form after a long spell of injury then maybe it's not the best idea.

Possible Wasps bias, but if you want a big lad in there, toss Bassett a cap. He's young enough to make it to 2023 as a live option, so it's not wasted. Alternatively, don't jettison Hassell-Collins from the squad. Neither are as big as Joe C, but they aren't small and they're better players right now.

Anyone with a PI/SH origin and/or name will always get the nod from mad Eddie over a John Smith from Surrey type.

[JM2K6]

It doesn't look like a team picked to defend and chase kicks, honestly. They've given Smith a good facsimile of Danny Care at 9, a carrying threat at 12, a carrying threat at 14, and Malins' wizardry off the wing. The backrow is a bit 'eh' but that's largely because I don't think Ludlow is good enough and I don't have an opinion on Chick. The front five is mobile.

[Margin__Walker]

Chick could be a bit of a dark horse. I was surprised when we played them a few months ago how much he's kicked on.

Would still be behind the likes of Simmonds and Dombrandt, but he does seem like he's worth a look.

[geordie_6]

Falcons continuing their Quins reunion act, with Deano adding Nathan Earle to the signings of Mike Brown and George Merrick.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Falcons continuing their Quins reunion act, with Deano adding Nathan Earle to the signings of Mike Brown and George Merrick.

If you can get Earle back to form then that's a good signing. He looked great when he joined Quins but after a very nasty injury he hasn't shown more than the occasional glimpse of his old form. Hope he goes well for you.

[SaintK]

Falcons continuing their Quins reunion act, with Deano adding Nathan Earle to the signings of Mike Brown and George Merrick.

Merrick didn't stay in France for very long. Did he actually get much game time?

[notfatcat]

Falcons continuing their Quins reunion act, with Deano adding Nathan Earle to the signings of Mike Brown and George Merrick.

Merrick didn't stay in France for very long. Did he actually get much game time?

I've got a feeling he may have come home due to illness of a close family member.

[SaintK]

Falcons continuing their Quins reunion act, with Deano adding Nathan Earle to the signings of Mike Brown and George Merrick.

Merrick didn't stay in France for very long. Did he actually get much game time?

I've got a feeling he may have come home due to illness of a close family member.

Oh dear that's not good. Think he would have done ok, they like big lumps in the 2nd row and boy is he a big lump!!!

[Hells Bells]

Any thoughts on the USA game? Don’t know how much we can take from it with the injuries causing disruptions in the back line.

In the pack I though Underhill/Genge showed up well (which you’d expect given their experience) although Genge seemed unnecessarily pumped which caused a few issues at scrum time early on. Langdon his his jumpers but thought Blamire offered more around the park when he was on. The 2nd row, just a beige selection really and Ewels didn’t seem to stamp any authority on the game. Ludlow and Chick were fairly solid And you could see the breakdown work that Curry offers when he came on.

Out the backs, Cokansiga seemed to have his mojo back and Steward offers a lot of reassurance under the high ball. Randall needs to calm down, liked the pace he played at times but he needs to learn to slow it down at the right moment. Lawrence was good while he was on and Malins on the wing I’d like to see tried again. Smith, after the hype was comfortable but the disruptions couldn’t have helped his game. Umaga mind, know he was out of position but seemed to be dropping off tackles everywhere.

Next week would like to see:

Genge, Blamire, Heyes, Ewell, Hill, Ludlam, Curry, Dombrandt
Randall, Smith, Cokanasiga, Slade, Marchant, Radwan, Steward

Subs: Langdon, Rodd, Davison, McNally, Underhill, Robson, Kelly, Furbank

[notfatcat]

Umaga couldn't tackle a wet paper bag.

[JM2K6]

Umaga couldn't tackle a wet paper bag.

Just the four missed tackles

Worst across both teams.

[SaintK]

Any thoughts on the USA game? Don’t know how much we can take from it with the injuries causing disruptions in the back line.

In the pack I though Underhill/Genge showed up well (which you’d expect given their experience) although Genge seemed unnecessarily pumped which caused a few issues at scrum time early on. Langdon his his jumpers but thought Blamire offered more around the park when he was on. The 2nd row, just a beige selection really and Ewels didn’t seem to stamp any authority on the game. Ludlow and Chick were fairly solid And you could see the breakdown work that Curry offers when he came on.

Out the backs, Cokansiga seemed to have his mojo back and Steward offers a lot of reassurance under the high ball. Randall needs to calm down, liked the pace he played at times but he needs to learn to slow it down at the right moment. Lawrence was good while he was on and Malins on the wing I’d like to see tried again. Smith, after the hype was comfortable but the disruptions couldn’t have helped his game. Umaga mind, know he was out of position but seemed to be dropping off tackles everywhere.

Next week would like to see:

Genge, Blamire, Heyes, Ewell, Hill, Ludlam, Curry, Dombrandt
Randall, Smith, Cokanasiga, Slade, Marchant, Radwan, Steward

Subs: Langdon, Rodd, Davison, McNally, Underhill, Robson, Kelly, Furbank

Hill's away with the Lions! Did you mean Wells?

[JM2K6]

He might have meant Ted Hill, who might be able to play lock? Either way you'd expect it to be Wells, with Munga broken by Eddie (how many is that now?)

[duke]

Any thoughts on the USA game? Don’t know how much we can take from it with the injuries causing disruptions in the back line.

In the pack I though Underhill/Genge showed up well (which you’d expect given their experience) although Genge seemed unnecessarily pumped which caused a few issues at scrum time early on. Langdon his his jumpers but thought Blamire offered more around the park when he was on. The 2nd row, just a beige selection really and Ewels didn’t seem to stamp any authority on the game. Ludlow and Chick were fairly solid And you could see the breakdown work that Curry offers when he came on.

Out the backs, Cokansiga seemed to have his mojo back and Steward offers a lot of reassurance under the high ball. Randall needs to calm down, liked the pace he played at times but he needs to learn to slow it down at the right moment. Lawrence was good while he was on and Malins on the wing I’d like to see tried again. Smith, after the hype was comfortable but the disruptions couldn’t have helped his game. Umaga mind, know he was out of position but seemed to be dropping off tackles everywhere.

Next week would like to see:

Genge, Blamire, Heyes, Ewell, Hill, Ludlam, Curry, Dombrandt
Randall, Smith, Cokanasiga, Slade, Marchant, Radwan, Steward

Subs: Langdon, Rodd, Davison, McNally, Underhill, Robson, Kelly, Furbank

Hill's away with the Lions! Did you mean Wells?

Ted Hill of Worcester?

[Margin__Walker]

He might have meant Ted Hill, who might be able to play lock? Either way you'd expect it to be Wells, with Munga broken by Eddie (how many is that now?)

Plenty. Cheers Eddie.

I know he'll have loved being in camp, but he was never getting a cap in this run of games. Makes the injury even more frustrating. Hopefully it's not a bad one.

[sockwithaticket]

Umaga's an ok defender at 10 for Wasps in a team where he's familiar with all the personnel and systems, but it's not exactly a strength. Not surprised to see him shelling tackles out of position in a jury rigged back line full of players he has no history with.

Correlation rather than causation perhaps, but some of our pack's loss of supremacy seemed to coincide with the subs and Ted Hill going to lock, so I'd hope we don't repeat that again. We might get away with it against Canada, but it's not a serious option for games with proper opposition, so why bother fucking around with the lad? He's a back row, pick him there or don't have him in the side.

[JM2K6]

Umaga's an ok defender at 10 for Wasps in a team where he's familiar with all the personnel and systems, but it's not exactly a strength. Not surprised to see him shelling tackles out of position in a jury rigged back line full of players he has no history with.

Correlation rather than causation perhaps, but some of our pack's loss of supremacy seemed to coincide with the subs and Ted Hill going to lock, so I'd hope we don't repeat that again. We might get away with it against Canada, but it's not a serious option for games with proper opposition, so why bother fucking around with the lad? He's a back row, pick him there or don't have him in the side.

He definitely would prefer a blindside who can play lock if required. This has been a theme for a long time - it's how Bad Shields got caps.

[SaintK]

Any thoughts on the USA game? Don’t know how much we can take from it with the injuries causing disruptions in the back line.

In the pack I though Underhill/Genge showed up well (which you’d expect given their experience) although Genge seemed unnecessarily pumped which caused a few issues at scrum time early on. Langdon his his jumpers but thought Blamire offered more around the park when he was on. The 2nd row, just a beige selection really and Ewels didn’t seem to stamp any authority on the game. Ludlow and Chick were fairly solid And you could see the breakdown work that Curry offers when he came on.

Out the backs, Cokansiga seemed to have his mojo back and Steward offers a lot of reassurance under the high ball. Randall needs to calm down, liked the pace he played at times but he needs to learn to slow it down at the right moment. Lawrence was good while he was on and Malins on the wing I’d like to see tried again. Smith, after the hype was comfortable but the disruptions couldn’t have helped his game. Umaga mind, know he was out of position but seemed to be dropping off tackles everywhere.

Next week would like to see:

Genge, Blamire, Heyes, Ewell, Hill, Ludlam, Curry, Dombrandt
Randall, Smith, Cokanasiga, Slade, Marchant, Radwan, Steward

Subs: Langdon, Rodd, Davison, McNally, Underhill, Robson, Kelly, Furbank

Hill's away with the Lions! Did you mean Wells?

Ted Hill of Worcester?

Not at lock I hope. That would be a complete waste of his talents.
But you never know with Jones

[Brazil]

Umaga's an ok defender at 10 for Wasps in a team where he's familiar with all the personnel and systems, but it's not exactly a strength. Not surprised to see him shelling tackles out of position in a jury rigged back line full of players he has no history with.

Correlation rather than causation perhaps, but some of our pack's loss of supremacy seemed to coincide with the subs and Ted Hill going to lock, so I'd hope we don't repeat that again. We might get away with it against Canada, but it's not a serious option for games with proper opposition, so why bother fucking around with the lad? He's a back row, pick him there or don't have him in the side.

SWT, meet Eddie Jones...

[sockwithaticket]

Umaga's an ok defender at 10 for Wasps in a team where he's familiar with all the personnel and systems, but it's not exactly a strength. Not surprised to see him shelling tackles out of position in a jury rigged back line full of players he has no history with.

Correlation rather than causation perhaps, but some of our pack's loss of supremacy seemed to coincide with the subs and Ted Hill going to lock, so I'd hope we don't repeat that again. We might get away with it against Canada, but it's not a serious option for games with proper opposition, so why bother fucking around with the lad? He's a back row, pick him there or don't have him in the side.

He definitely would prefer a blindside who can play lock if required. This has been a theme for a long time - it's how Bad Shields got caps.

I though that was more a result of having only taken 3 locks on tour and deciding that one of them wasn't up to it inside 30 minutes of a test left us short of other options. Outside the SA tour Shields only played back row? Admittedly I've tried to scrub his England performances from my brain (and most of his first season with Wasps), so could be mis-remembering.

I'd rather we never did it, but athletic lock to 6 seems to work a lot better than tall 6 to lock.

Umaga's an ok defender at 10 for Wasps in a team where he's familiar with all the personnel and systems, but it's not exactly a strength. Not surprised to see him shelling tackles out of position in a jury rigged back line full of players he has no history with.

Correlation rather than causation perhaps, but some of our pack's loss of supremacy seemed to coincide with the subs and Ted Hill going to lock, so I'd hope we don't repeat that again. We might get away with it against Canada, but it's not a serious option for games with proper opposition, so why bother fucking around with the lad? He's a back row, pick him there or don't have him in the side.

SWT, meet Eddie Jones...

Fair, I probably should be over it at this point, but, when you see so many other coaches making understandable selection decisions, Eddie's quirks continue to exasperate.

[Brazil]

I'd prefer Langdon to get another run out next week, as he went very well and Blamire missed a lot of lineouts, though that might be due to the pack going to sleep. That said, the other hookers deserve a run out so won't be gutted if he misses out. Rodd should be looked at as well, if only from the Bench. Obviously there's no Sale bias here at all.

Are Malins and Lawrence definitely out? It's a real shame if so, because that back line has huge potential. Smith deserves another start, so I expect Jones to select Umaga at 10 with Furbank as back up at 15, and Dan Robson the only back on the bench.

[JM2K6]

Umaga's an ok defender at 10 for Wasps in a team where he's familiar with all the personnel and systems, but it's not exactly a strength. Not surprised to see him shelling tackles out of position in a jury rigged back line full of players he has no history with.

Correlation rather than causation perhaps, but some of our pack's loss of supremacy seemed to coincide with the subs and Ted Hill going to lock, so I'd hope we don't repeat that again. We might get away with it against Canada, but it's not a serious option for games with proper opposition, so why bother fucking around with the lad? He's a back row, pick him there or don't have him in the side.

He definitely would prefer a blindside who can play lock if required. This has been a theme for a long time - it's how Bad Shields got caps.

I though that was more a result of having only taken 3 locks on tour and deciding that one of them wasn't up to it inside 30 minutes of a test left us short of other options. Outside the SA tour Shields only played back row? Admittedly I've tried to scrub his England performances from my brain (and most of his first season with Wasps), so could be mis-remembering.

I'd rather we never did it, but athletic lock to 6 seems to work a lot better than tall 6 to lock.

He was talked about as a second row option before the tour (hence only taking 3 real locks). As you say, he played lock after Isiekwe was pulled, and moved there a few times after that. Think he also played lock off the bench in one of his later caps. He was supposed to start the 2nd test at lock as well, but I think Launch's fitness came through or something like that.

Obviously he's not a lock, but the "in emergency pull cord" lock does appeal to Eddie. Hill probably isn't good enough to be England blindside by right, but if he can cover those positions then that's a bit more flexibility should our usual options be unavailable.

Still, seems like a waste right now. Especially as he's binned off the ACTUAL 6/lock guy, George Martin - that whole scenario is so weird and so funny and so Eddie.

IMO even with a 5/3 split and needing 3 front rowers, you can still cover back row and lock just fine with those 2 extra forwards regardless of their flexibility.

[JM2K6]

I'd prefer Langdon to get another run out next week, as he went very well and Blamire missed a lot of lineouts, though that might be due to the pack going to sleep. That said, the other hookers deserve a run out so won't be gutted if he misses out. Rodd should be looked at as well, if only from the Bench. Obviously there's no Sale bias here at all.

Are Malins and Lawrence definitely out? It's a real shame if so, because that back line has huge potential. Smith deserves another start, so I expect Jones to select Umaga at 10 with Furbank as back up at 15, and Dan Robson the only back on the bench.

Malins is a week or two but that's long enough. Lawrence is just the HIA so we'll have to wait and see what they say.

Oh, and Eddie has Furbank in there primarily as a 10, as a final fuck-you to Joe Simmonds (again, probably because 'oooh, he plays two positions' gets Eddie so wet).

[Hal Jordan]

Lawrence shouldn't play from a player welfare standpoint, for all the weight that carries. Shame, because he seems to be a decent 12.

Jones will probably start Robson and Umaga now, no doubt.

[Choc]

This from John Mitchell seems to suggest that England see Ted Hill is seen as a 2nd row who covers backrow rather than the other way round. He also finished the season in the 2nd row for Worcester.

“we have got Ted Hill who is a very athletic young lock. He has the ability to play six as well but he has really ripped into his work since his squad selection. He has demonstrated real physicality and real desire outside of his set-piece and his carry”

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/the-test ... and-jones/

[sockwithaticket]

Very skeptical of this England set up deciding they know best when it comes to players' primary position...

[Hal Jordan]

Malins gone, unsurprisingly.

[Margin__Walker]

Okay, so who's watching the U20s live at 8pm today then? Any takers

[notfatcat]

Okay, so who's watching the U20s live at 8pm today then? Any takers

[ASMO]

Okay, so who's watching the U20s live at 8pm today then? Any takers

me too, fuck the chavball

[sockwithaticket]

Okay, so who's watching the U20s live at 8pm today then? Any takers

Yep.

[Raggs]

I will be, no interest in watching football whatsoever I'm afraid. I'd probably watch a world cup final if England were in it.

[Raggs]

Ireland Italy u20s is a great contest so far, just back and forth scoring. 15-12 just 18 minutes in, and conversion attempt to come.

[Margin__Walker]

Good effort all.

Above and beyond. Not sure I'll get away with it, so will watch the U20s later

[Raggs]

Good effort all.

Above and beyond. Not sure I'll get away with it, so will watch the U20s later

I was going to miss the u20s, since I'd have been golfing with dad (vr), but he's on a field trip so I'm free to watch :). Nice afternoon of rugby with the u20s and the lions (if it happens).

EDIT - The italian u20s are really fun to watch.

[sockwithaticket]

Team for tonight