B&I Lions vs KZN $hark$ match thread

[Chilli]

BIL Team:

15. Liam Williams (Scarlets, Wales)
14. Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, England)
13. Elliot Daly (Saracens, England)
12. Bundee Aki (Connacht Rugby, Ireland)
11. Duhan van der Merwe (Worcester Warriors, Scotland)
10. Dan Biggar (Northampton Saints, Wales)
9. Gareth Davies (Scarlets, Wales)
1. Mako Vunipola (Saracens, England)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs, England)
3. Zander Fagerson (Glasgow Warriors, Scotland)
4. Iain Henderson – Captain (Ulster Rugby, Ireland)
5. Adam Beard (Ospreys, Wales)
6. Josh Navidi (Cardiff Rugby, Wales)
7. Tom Curry (Sale Sharks, England)
8. Sam Simmonds (Exeter Chiefs, England)


Replacements:
16. Ken Owens (Scarlets, Wales)
17. Rory Sutherland (Worcester Warriors, Scotland)
18. Tadhg Furlong (Leinster Rugby, Ireland)
19. Tadhg Beirne (Munster Rugby, Ireland)
20. Jack Conan (Leinster Rugby, Ireland)
21. Conor Murray (Munster Rugby, Ireland)
22. Stuart Hogg (Exeter Chiefs, Scotland)
23. Chris Harris (Gloucester Rugby, Scotland)

Looks weak.

[assfly]

So 12 years ago this was the Sharks team that would go on to lose 3-39 to the BIL:

15 Stefan Terblanche, FB
14 Chris Jordaan, W
13 Andries Strauss, C
12 Riaan Swanepoel, C
11 Luzuko Vulindlu, W
10 Monty Dumond, FH
9 Rory Kockott, SH 
1 Deon Carstens, P
2 Skipper Badenhorst, H
3 Jannie du Plessis, P
4 Steven Sykes, L
5 Johann Muller, L
6 Jacques Botes, FL
7 Jean Deysel, FL
8 Keegan Daniel, N8

REPLACEMENTS
16 Craig Burden, R
17 Pat Cilliers, R
18 Albert van den Berg, R
19 Michael Rhodes, R
20 Charl McLeod, R
21 Guy Cronje, R
22 Lwazi Mvovo, R

So not exactly a classic lineup either, but much more depth with several Boks and a future French international.

Our only Bok on Wednesday will be Bosch

[OomStruisbaai]

Whoosh

Soutpiel gaan woosh jou poes

[sorCrer]

Whoosh

Soutpiel gaan woosh jou poes

[JM2K6]

So 12 years ago this was the Sharks team that would go on to lose 3-39 to the BIL:

15 Stefan Terblanche, FB
14 Chris Jordaan, W
13 Andries Strauss, C
12 Riaan Swanepoel, C
11 Luzuko Vulindlu, W
10 Monty Dumond, FH
9 Rory Kockott, SH 
1 Deon Carstens, P
2 Skipper Badenhorst, H
3 Jannie du Plessis, P
4 Steven Sykes, L
5 Johann Muller, L
6 Jacques Botes, FL
7 Jean Deysel, FL
8 Keegan Daniel, N8

REPLACEMENTS
16 Craig Burden, R
17 Pat Cilliers, R
18 Albert van den Berg, R
19 Michael Rhodes, R
20 Charl McLeod, R
21 Guy Cronje, R
22 Lwazi Mvovo, R

So not exactly a classic lineup either, but much more depth with several Boks and a future French international.

Our only Bok on Wednesday will be Bosch

Christ, I actually recognise most of those players and can remember watching most of them at one time or another.

But this is the reality of Lions tours now - weak provincial sides with the occasional awesome performance making one or two of the tour matches a genuine contest.

[assfly]

Soutpiel gaan woosh jou poes

Kingon gaan woosh jou Roos

[OomStruisbaai]

Soutpiel gaan woosh jou poes

Kingon gaan woosh jou Roos

[assfly]

Christ, I actually recognise most of those players and can remember watching most of them at one time or another.

But this is the reality of Lions tours now - weak provincial sides with the occasional awesome performance making one or two of the tour matches a genuine contest.

Yes there were quite a few who would go overseas and have very successful careers.

I just don't think the current crop of players have quite the same pedigree. In a couple of seasons half of that team will either be overseas or playing for different provinces.

Not sure what the solution is. Such a shame there isn't a crowd to at least give the youngsters some extra encouragement. But let's hope they appreciate the opportunity to play against the Lions and up their game a bit.

[Big D]

Would imagine the Lions will be something like:

Vunipola
Cowan Dickie
Fagerson
Beard
Henderson
Navidi
Curry
Simmonds
Davies
Biggar
Watson
Aki
Daly
Van der Merwe
Williams

Not a bad guess. Gatland true to his word about everyone getting a start.

Hogg covering 10

[OomStruisbaai]

Not even the ref will save the $hark$ in this one. Its an away game for them aswell. The biggest mistake from our franchises and refs is that they give the Lions to much respect.

BIL by 60.

[Cartman]

Some big fuckers in that backline to run at Bosch

[JM2K6]

Some big fuckers in that backline to run at Bosch

All of them are physical players - actually that's true of pretty much the entire touring squad's outside backs, with the exception of LRZ.

[Rinkals]

I can't say I was terribly impressed with Saturday's game:

I thought the local team's defence was non-existent and they were hampered in attack by service from the scrum half (and his replacement) which was ponderous and inaccurate.

God knows why scrum halves are not regarded as key to a good attack in this country, but we do seem to have an over abundance of pretty ordinary players in the position.

That's why I was ecstatic when I first saw Faf play.

What is Hendricks like? I haven't seen much of him, lock down and all...

[assfly]

What is Hendricks like? I haven't seen much of him, lock down and all...

He's decent. I would have had him in the Bok squad ahead of Nohamba, and I heard Nick Mallet singing his praises after the Griquas game. But will probably come off second-best when playing against Davies.

[OomStruisbaai]

Hope this three get enough time from the bench
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson

Would started with them.


Side Note: I'll kak my pants everytime Bosch kicks. The Sharks must value possession and try to keep it in hand. Their scrum is kak. Their defense will be much better then our Lions team.

Whatta a battle coming up between Tarzan & Duhan vd Merwe.

[Rinkals]

Hope this three get enough time from the bench
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson

Would started with them.


Side Note: I'll kak my pants everytime Bosch kicks. The Sharks must value possession and try to keep it in hand. Their scrum is kak. Their defense will be much better then our Lions team.

Whatta a battle coming up between Tarzan & Duhan vd Merwe.

Yes, Can't say I disagree.

I suspect that every scrum will be a guaranteed penalty for the BIL.

I thought the Gauteng Lions were a bit hard down by in this matter: once the first scrum went down, every scrum collapsed and the BIL got the penalty regardless of who actually caused it. (I hope it's obvious that I'm talking about the replacement front row: the starter pack held their own.)

Referees are generally clueless when it comes to the scrum, so once they make their mind up which scrum is stronger, they'll continue to penalise the pack that they think is the weaker. Which makes it a no brainer for the stronger pack to collapse the scrum and earn the penalty.

[assfly]

Hope this three get enough time from the bench
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson

Would started with them.


Side Note: I'll kak my pants everytime Bosch kicks. The Sharks must value possession and try to keep it in hand. Their scrum is kak. Their defense will be much better then our Lions team.

Whatta a battle coming up between Tarzan & Duhan vd Merwe.

Based on our last two games, the Sharks scrum is fine. But again, we're coming up against world class props on Wednesday.

I don't think JJvdM has got more than 30 minutes in him at the moment. He looks like he's got 30 pies in him.

I hope the Sharks just go out there and play rugby. Don't try beat the Lions by attempting to play test match rugby, let's throw the ball around and try score some tries.

[OomStruisbaai]

Referee: Jaco Peyper (SARU)
Assistant Referee 1: Wayne Barnes (RFU)
Assistant Referee 2: AJ Jacobs (SARU)
TMO: Marius van der Westhuizen (SARU)

OP updated

[Sards]

Hope this three get enough time from the bench
19. JJ van der Mescht
20. Reniel Hugo
21. Dylan Richardson

Would started with them.


Side Note: I'll kak my pants everytime Bosch kicks. The Sharks must value possession and try to keep it in hand. Their scrum is kak. Their defense will be much better then our Lions team.

Whatta a battle coming up between Tarzan & Duhan vd Merwe.

Based on our last two games, the Sharks scrum is fine. But again, we're coming up against world class props on Wednesday.

I don't think JJvdM has got more than 30 minutes in him at the moment. He looks like he's got 30 pies in him.

I hope the Sharks just go out there and play rugby. Don't try beat the Lions by attempting to play test match rugby, let's throw the ball around and try score some tries.

Thats exactly how this young team works.
The days of Bissie, the bone collector, The Du Preez Brothers we played forward dominated rugby.

[Blake]

Christ, I actually recognise most of those players and can remember watching most of them at one time or another.

But this is the reality of Lions tours now - weak provincial sides with the occasional awesome performance making one or two of the tour matches a genuine contest.

Indeed. It's a real shame and likely to get worse and worse for Lions tours to SA in future as we hitch our wagon to Europe and make peace with the fact that we will lose large chunks of our player base the north.
It makes these pre-test tour games pointless, other than to give the local players a story for their retirement and give the Lions some match practice.

So maybe, for the next Lions tour (if there will be one for 2033) to have these be invitational exhibition matches with the best talent we can scrounge up locally.
1x match against an SA u20 team
2x matches against an SA team akin to the NZ Maori
2x matches against an SA A team
3x tests against the Boks

The Lions still get 8 fixtures, and even though they will be facing some sides that have also been cobbled together, theoretically, the concentration of talent will make the local teams a little more competitive as we near the tests.

I'm sure OomPB will throw a hissy fit as he is a traditionalist, but I'm a pragmatist. Nobody gains anything from these blowout matches against depleted local teams.
At least in this format, there might be a challenge for the Lions, and there might be an opportunity for any of the players to get noticed by Rassie/Nienaber and pulled into the test squad.

[assfly]

I thought one of the best games from the previous tour was the first one, against the Royal XV.

Should have been a thumping, but came across a lot of tough no-name rugby players on a cold, hard pitch in Rustenburg. Those guys played like they wanted to tell their grandkids about the day they beat the Lions, and they nearly did it.

I worry that gees we saw in that match is a thing of the past.

[Sards]

Christ, I actually recognise most of those players and can remember watching most of them at one time or another.

But this is the reality of Lions tours now - weak provincial sides with the occasional awesome performance making one or two of the tour matches a genuine contest.

Indeed. It's a real shame and likely to get worse and worse for Lions tours to SA in future as we hitch our wagon to Europe and make peace with the fact that we will lose large chunks of our player base the north.
It makes these pre-test tour games pointless, other than to give the local players a story for their retirement and give the Lions some match practice.

So maybe, for the next Lions tour (if there will be one for 2033) to have these be invitational exhibition matches with the best talent we can scrounge up locally.
1x match against an SA u20 team
2x matches against an SA team akin to the NZ Maori
2x matches against an SA A team
3x tests against the Boks

The Lions still get 8 fixtures, and even though they will be facing some sides that have also been cobbled together, theoretically, the concentration of talent will make the local teams a little more competitive as we near the tests.

I'm sure OomPB will throw a hissy fit as he is a traditionalist, but I'm a pragmatist. Nobody gains anything from these blowout matches against depleted local teams.
At least in this format, there might be a challenge for the Lions, and there might be an opportunity for any of the players to get noticed by Rassie/Nienaber and pulled into the test squad.

This makes sense to me. There are fringe players I would like to see play more than the Lions after that performance

[Biffer]

Christ, I actually recognise most of those players and can remember watching most of them at one time or another.

But this is the reality of Lions tours now - weak provincial sides with the occasional awesome performance making one or two of the tour matches a genuine contest.

Indeed. It's a real shame and likely to get worse and worse for Lions tours to SA in future as we hitch our wagon to Europe and make peace with the fact that we will lose large chunks of our player base the north.
It makes these pre-test tour games pointless, other than to give the local players a story for their retirement and give the Lions some match practice.

So maybe, for the next Lions tour (if there will be one for 2033) to have these be invitational exhibition matches with the best talent we can scrounge up locally.
1x match against an SA u20 team
2x matches against an SA team akin to the NZ Maori
2x matches against an SA A team
3x tests against the Boks

The Lions still get 8 fixtures, and even though they will be facing some sides that have also been cobbled together, theoretically, the concentration of talent will make the local teams a little more competitive as we near the tests.

I'm sure OomPB will throw a hissy fit as he is a traditionalist, but I'm a pragmatist. Nobody gains anything from these blowout matches against depleted local teams.
At least in this format, there might be a challenge for the Lions, and there might be an opportunity for any of the players to get noticed by Rassie/Nienaber and pulled into the test squad.

Alternatively, given it's 12 years away, fix your game and have some decent teams playing for the Sharks, Bulls, Stormers etc.

[OomStruisbaai]

In the old days home test teams were only allowed to gather/selected one week before the test.

So the provinces were full strength against the touring teams and many were playing for a test place.

A full strength Stormers / Sharks team would be a total different opposition.

Take 9 players out of any international side and you,ll see a moerse difference.

Even the great Scotland can't afford this.

[OomStruisbaai]

Alternatively, given it's 12 years away, fix your game and have some decent teams playing for the Sharks, Bulls, Stormers etc.

Can you please tell us where we need to fix?

Maybe it can help us won the WC a record 4th time.

[Sandstorm]

Alternatively, given it's 12 years away, fix your game and have some decent teams playing for the Sharks, Bulls, Stormers etc.

Can you please tell us where we need to fix?

Maybe it can help us won the WC a record 4th time.

Yup. If Scotland fix their own league, develop their own juniors and clubs & hopefully then they won’t need to import 1/3 of their Test side to be competitive.

[Chilli]

Alternatively, given it's 12 years away, fix your game and have some decent teams playing for the Sharks, Bulls, Stormers etc.

Can you please tell us where we need to fix?

Maybe it can help us won the WC a record 4th time.

Yup. If Scotland fix their own league, develop their own juniors and clubs & hopefully then they won’t need to import 1/3 of their Test side to be competitive.

[Blake]

Alternatively, given it's 12 years away, fix your game and have some decent teams playing for the Sharks, Bulls, Stormers etc.

That horse has bolted boet. We are a rugby player exporting operation now. Local players play to get to senior teams and then get a European or Japanese payday.

Our currency and salaries can’t and won’t ever compete with what is available up North, so instead of fighting the inevitable, we are embracing reality and adapting to this.

The Boks will be fine as we will have an even larger and more experienced player pool to drawn on, but the Currie Cup will continue its steady decline. Pro16 will be a mixed bag, and I suspect talent in SA teams will be plundered after each season. It is what it is, hence the comment about the warmup games in the next Lions Tour.

[Biffer]

Alternatively, given it's 12 years away, fix your game and have some decent teams playing for the Sharks, Bulls, Stormers etc.

Can you please tell us where we need to fix?

Maybe it can help us won the WC a record 4th time.

Yup. If Scotland fix their own league, develop their own juniors and clubs & hopefully then they won’t need to import 1/3 of their Test side to be competitive.

A lot of our stuff has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, better players coming through as is self evident, better second level comp started, we’re getting there after having fûcked it for the first 20 years of professionalism. . The five year eligibility rule will mean a lot fewer qualifying by residence (which we haven’t done that much of tbh).

That wasn’t really meant to be a snide comment, I’d love to see a strong Currie Cup. Super Rugby fûcked that up though. I doubt joining our league is going to help you with your domestic game. A good Currie Cup should be as enjoyable as Super Rugby Aotearoa, with the advantage of being at good broadcast times in Europe.

I’ve said it a lot in various places, SH should play their own domestic competitions and then have. a Heineken Cup style comp for the top, say, 12. 3 NZ, 3 SA, 2 Aus, 2 Japanese, Maybe a PI team, 1RG. Six or seven weeks. Marketable all day slate of games for TV. You and the kiwis had great historical competitions and shat on them, then wondered why no one was interested in the product.

[OomStruisbaai]

Nah we played CC now for longer then a year. The Springboks have a busy year ahead. We need our best players for the URC to give the Scots opposition.

[sorCrer]

Can you please tell us where we need to fix?

Maybe it can help us won the WC a record 4th time.

Yup. If Scotland fix their own league, develop their own juniors and clubs & hopefully then they won’t need to import 1/3 of their Test side to be competitive.

A lot of our stuff has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, better players coming through as is self evident, better second level comp started, we’re getting there after having fûcked it for the first 20 years of professionalism. . The five year eligibility rule will mean a lot fewer qualifying by residence (which we haven’t done that much of tbh).

That wasn’t really meant to be a snide comment, I’d love to see a strong Currie Cup. Super Rugby fûcked that up though. I doubt joining our league is going to help you with your domestic game. A good Currie Cup should be as enjoyable as Super Rugby Aotearoa, with the advantage of being at good broadcast times in Europe.

I’ve said it a lot in various places, SH should play their own domestic competitions and then have. a Heineken Cup style comp for the top, say, 12. 3 NZ, 3 SA, 2 Aus, 2 Japanese, Maybe a PI team, 1RG. Six or seven weeks. Marketable all day slate of games for TV. You and the kiwis had great historical competitions and shat on them, then wondered why no one was interested in the product.

Come the fuck on Biffer, you're more intelligent than that. 'Things fall apart', everything must change.

[Chilli]

Can you please tell us where we need to fix?

Maybe it can help us won the WC a record 4th time.

Yup. If Scotland fix their own league, develop their own juniors and clubs & hopefully then they won’t need to import 1/3 of their Test side to be competitive.

A lot of our stuff has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, better players coming through as is self evident, better second level comp started, we’re getting there after having fûcked it for the first 20 years of professionalism. . The five year eligibility rule will mean a lot fewer qualifying by residence (which we haven’t done that much of tbh).

That wasn’t really meant to be a snide comment, I’d love to see a strong Currie Cup. Super Rugby fûcked that up though. I doubt joining our league is going to help you with your domestic game. A good Currie Cup should be as enjoyable as Super Rugby Aotearoa, with the advantage of being at good broadcast times in Europe.

I’ve said it a lot in various places, SH should play their own domestic competitions and then have. a Heineken Cup style comp for the top, say, 12. 3 NZ, 3 SA, 2 Aus, 2 Japanese, Maybe a PI team, 1RG. Six or seven weeks. Marketable all day slate of games for TV. You and the kiwis had great historical competitions and shat on them, then wondered why no one was interested in the product.

Well, if you would stop poaching our players.......

[OomStruisbaai]

There is one Lions tour that I still remember well, 1974. No other touring team to SA came close to that lot. Chris Pope came out of nowhere and played him out of their WP match, which was close , into the Bok team. Without using SB bot I think he was the only Springbok playing in all 4 test. In fact some WP greats made their Bok debut in the 1st test after WP kept the score competitive.

Pope was a UCT legend.

Anyways that was a long time ago.

(Hope my English isn't to bad)

[Cartman]

There is one Lions tour that I still remember well, 1974. No other touring team to SA came close to that lot. Chris Pope came out of nowhere and played him out of their WP match, which was close , into the Bok team. Without using SB bot I think he was the only Springbok playing in all 4 test. In fact some WP greats made their Bok debut in the 1st test after WP kept the score competitive.

Pope was a UCT legend.

Anyways that was a long time ago.

(Hope my English isn't to bad)

*too

[Slick]

bastard

[Sards]

Such a pity our boks aren't available...

We were hurt the most with 10 players .....


Anyway....lets see if they keep it competitive at least

[Biffer]

Yup. If Scotland fix their own league, develop their own juniors and clubs & hopefully then they won’t need to import 1/3 of their Test side to be competitive.

A lot of our stuff has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, better players coming through as is self evident, better second level comp started, we’re getting there after having fûcked it for the first 20 years of professionalism. . The five year eligibility rule will mean a lot fewer qualifying by residence (which we haven’t done that much of tbh).

That wasn’t really meant to be a snide comment, I’d love to see a strong Currie Cup. Super Rugby fûcked that up though. I doubt joining our league is going to help you with your domestic game. A good Currie Cup should be as enjoyable as Super Rugby Aotearoa, with the advantage of being at good broadcast times in Europe.

I’ve said it a lot in various places, SH should play their own domestic competitions and then have. a Heineken Cup style comp for the top, say, 12. 3 NZ, 3 SA, 2 Aus, 2 Japanese, Maybe a PI team, 1RG. Six or seven weeks. Marketable all day slate of games for TV. You and the kiwis had great historical competitions and shat on them, then wondered why no one was interested in the product.

Come the fuck on Biffer, you're more intelligent than that. 'Things fall apart', everything must change.

Not saying it didn't need change, but SR has been a disaster. Our domestic set up was a shambles as well for quite a while. Things have fallen apart now, so what change do you want? I don't think our league is really the answer for you.

[Biffer]

Yup. If Scotland fix their own league, develop their own juniors and clubs & hopefully then they won’t need to import 1/3 of their Test side to be competitive.

A lot of our stuff has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, better players coming through as is self evident, better second level comp started, we’re getting there after having fûcked it for the first 20 years of professionalism. . The five year eligibility rule will mean a lot fewer qualifying by residence (which we haven’t done that much of tbh).

That wasn’t really meant to be a snide comment, I’d love to see a strong Currie Cup. Super Rugby fûcked that up though. I doubt joining our league is going to help you with your domestic game. A good Currie Cup should be as enjoyable as Super Rugby Aotearoa, with the advantage of being at good broadcast times in Europe.

I’ve said it a lot in various places, SH should play their own domestic competitions and then have. a Heineken Cup style comp for the top, say, 12. 3 NZ, 3 SA, 2 Aus, 2 Japanese, Maybe a PI team, 1RG. Six or seven weeks. Marketable all day slate of games for TV. You and the kiwis had great historical competitions and shat on them, then wondered why no one was interested in the product.

Well, if you would stop poaching our players.......

Think that's substantially run its course. The five year qualifying is a big difference - that's 3 pro contracts for most players, half your playing career. After Schoeman it'll be a while before anyone qualifies on residency. The young centre, Venter, is the only other one I can think of in the Scottish system atm. Our main problem now, I think, is developing props. The hope is that the Super6 (Semi pro and academy) will help in young front row development. I'd love to see a third pro team in Scotland but currently we don't have the money, or the players.

How do you get more money into the South African domestic game? That's really difficult, but the only way I can see is to be in good tournaments that bring decent TV money. So that's the attraction of the Heineken.

[OomStruisbaai]

Going north already brought us more money then playing in the SH. Now we need to get into the 6 Nations to make more money.

[sorCrer]

A lot of our stuff has changed dramatically over the last 5-10 years, better players coming through as is self evident, better second level comp started, we’re getting there after having fûcked it for the first 20 years of professionalism. . The five year eligibility rule will mean a lot fewer qualifying by residence (which we haven’t done that much of tbh).

That wasn’t really meant to be a snide comment, I’d love to see a strong Currie Cup. Super Rugby fûcked that up though. I doubt joining our league is going to help you with your domestic game. A good Currie Cup should be as enjoyable as Super Rugby Aotearoa, with the advantage of being at good broadcast times in Europe.

I’ve said it a lot in various places, SH should play their own domestic competitions and then have. a Heineken Cup style comp for the top, say, 12. 3 NZ, 3 SA, 2 Aus, 2 Japanese, Maybe a PI team, 1RG. Six or seven weeks. Marketable all day slate of games for TV. You and the kiwis had great historical competitions and shat on them, then wondered why no one was interested in the product.

Come the fuck on Biffer, you're more intelligent than that. 'Things fall apart', everything must change.

Not saying it didn't need change, but SR has been a disaster. Our domestic set up was a shambles as well for quite a while. Things have fallen apart now, so what change do you want? I don't think our league is really the answer for you.

I'm not sure it is either but it's obviously the only answer due to our geographical location. At least the time zones are good.