Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Tichtheid]

I think taking the high road here is the better option. Leave them alone.

No matter what dreadful tripe she has written about political enemies, it's not just about winning the debate, it's about how you win it, or else we are always going to be in this race to the bottom, blaming the poor for poverty, the Education System and NHS for deficit, as opposed to those being investments which produce social and financial benefit.

We have to change the debate, the right will always win down in the mud with their blame games and short-termism. The Left needs a better way of doing things than aping the worst of these bastards.

[SaintK]

No great liking for Michael Portillo, but boy he nails it here

He does indeed. She's an absolute bitch
I sincerely hope the other rumours are true

Which rumours?

That the Govester swings both ways

[TB63]

The best description i heard of Gove was a man with a face composed entirely of testicles..

[SaintK]

Not that we needed reminding just what a needy lying cunt the PM is up pops Dom to confirm it again:

This morning, on his subscriber-only Substack blog, Dominic Cummings, the PM’s former chief adviser, has published an article explaining why he joined Boris Johnson’s team in Downing Street in the summer of 2019, and helped him to win a general election, even though he thinks Johnson is unfit to be prime minister. It is a long read (as usual with Cummings), but for anyone with anything more than a passing interest in Johnsonology, it is an essential read.

Spoilered for length!

Spoiler

Show

The truth is [Johnson] is neither [a clown or a campaigning genius]. He is a much deeper and more complex character than the media generally portrays. When I saw pundits seek mysteries in Cameron, I said the hidden depths weren’t there, he’s ‘a sphinx without a riddle’. Cameron was simple but portrayed as a sphinx but with Boris it’s the opposite, Boris is complex portrayed as simple. Behind each mask lies another mask — but there’s no masterplan behind all the masks, just the age old ‘will to power’. He is happy to hide behind the mask of a clown, mostly unbothered by ridicule, while calculations remain largely hidden (including from parts of his own mind).

He rewrites reality in his mind afresh according to the moment’s demands. He lies — so blatantly, so naturally, so regularly — that there is no real distinction possible with him, as there is with normal people, between truth and lies. He always tells people what they want to hear and he never means it. He always says ‘I can’t remember’ when they remind him and is rarely ‘lying’. He trusts nobody including his own family yet bears almost no grudges. He will sacrifice anybody for his career yet wants to make up with people who have screwed him over. He will use anybody for anything but is more polite than most top politicians towards junior staff. He is totally untrusted by anybody in No10 yet has a superpower for making people feel sorry for him — ‘I feel sorry for him like my old dead-beat boyfriend, I hate myself for it but I can’t help it’, said one in despair after a particularly dreadful meeting. He’s almost as comfortable with living in chaos as Floyd Mayweather but panics all day about the media. He sometimes compares himself to historic titans (Octavian is a favourite) and regularly admits it’s ludicrous he’s prime minister. He’s hopeless at bureaucratic infighting and examines every room he enters for physical escape routes.

He is both much more useless than the media portray and much more capable of self-awareness and ruthlessness than they ever portray, or his enemies usually discern. He routinely says and does things so foolish that people are open-mouthed, and is so hopeless at getting rid of duffers, so determined to avoid difficult situations, that people are usually shocked when he suddenly moves with ruthless speed to remove them. He was desperate to be prime minister but has almost no interest in the job.

[Lobby]

Not that we needed reminding just what a needy lying cunt the PM is up pops Dom to confirm it again:

This morning, on his subscriber-only Substack blog, Dominic Cummings, the PM’s former chief adviser, has published an article explaining why he joined Boris Johnson’s team in Downing Street in the summer of 2019, and helped him to win a general election, even though he thinks Johnson is unfit to be prime minister. It is a long read (as usual with Cummings), but for anyone with anything more than a passing interest in Johnsonology, it is an essential read.

Spoilered for length!

Spoiler

Show

The truth is [Johnson] is neither [a clown or a campaigning genius]. He is a much deeper and more complex character than the media generally portrays. When I saw pundits seek mysteries in Cameron, I said the hidden depths weren’t there, he’s ‘a sphinx without a riddle’. Cameron was simple but portrayed as a sphinx but with Boris it’s the opposite, Boris is complex portrayed as simple. Behind each mask lies another mask — but there’s no masterplan behind all the masks, just the age old ‘will to power’. He is happy to hide behind the mask of a clown, mostly unbothered by ridicule, while calculations remain largely hidden (including from parts of his own mind).

He rewrites reality in his mind afresh according to the moment’s demands. He lies — so blatantly, so naturally, so regularly — that there is no real distinction possible with him, as there is with normal people, between truth and lies. He always tells people what they want to hear and he never means it. He always says ‘I can’t remember’ when they remind him and is rarely ‘lying’. He trusts nobody including his own family yet bears almost no grudges. He will sacrifice anybody for his career yet wants to make up with people who have screwed him over. He will use anybody for anything but is more polite than most top politicians towards junior staff. He is totally untrusted by anybody in No10 yet has a superpower for making people feel sorry for him — ‘I feel sorry for him like my old dead-beat boyfriend, I hate myself for it but I can’t help it’, said one in despair after a particularly dreadful meeting. He’s almost as comfortable with living in chaos as Floyd Mayweather but panics all day about the media. He sometimes compares himself to historic titans (Octavian is a favourite) and regularly admits it’s ludicrous he’s prime minister. He’s hopeless at bureaucratic infighting and examines every room he enters for physical escape routes.

He is both much more useless than the media portray and much more capable of self-awareness and ruthlessness than they ever portray, or his enemies usually discern. He routinely says and does things so foolish that people are open-mouthed, and is so hopeless at getting rid of duffers, so determined to avoid difficult situations, that people are usually shocked when he suddenly moves with ruthless speed to remove them. He was desperate to be prime minister but has almost no interest in the job.

This is the overriding impression I get: “He was desperate to be prime minister but has almost no interest in the job.” (After the lies and duplicity obviously)

Having spoken to people who had the misfortune of having to work with him when he was Mayor of London, they had the same criticism of him as Mayor; that he was completely uninterested in the mechanics of actually being Mayor.

[Hal Jordan]

Yep, wanted to be for his ambition and to have been for his CV and the board at Eton, no interest in the work.

[Slick]

Not that we needed reminding just what a needy lying cunt the PM is up pops Dom to confirm it again:

This morning, on his subscriber-only Substack blog, Dominic Cummings, the PM’s former chief adviser, has published an article explaining why he joined Boris Johnson’s team in Downing Street in the summer of 2019, and helped him to win a general election, even though he thinks Johnson is unfit to be prime minister. It is a long read (as usual with Cummings), but for anyone with anything more than a passing interest in Johnsonology, it is an essential read.

Spoilered for length!

Spoiler

Show

The truth is [Johnson] is neither [a clown or a campaigning genius]. He is a much deeper and more complex character than the media generally portrays. When I saw pundits seek mysteries in Cameron, I said the hidden depths weren’t there, he’s ‘a sphinx without a riddle’. Cameron was simple but portrayed as a sphinx but with Boris it’s the opposite, Boris is complex portrayed as simple. Behind each mask lies another mask — but there’s no masterplan behind all the masks, just the age old ‘will to power’. He is happy to hide behind the mask of a clown, mostly unbothered by ridicule, while calculations remain largely hidden (including from parts of his own mind).

He rewrites reality in his mind afresh according to the moment’s demands. He lies — so blatantly, so naturally, so regularly — that there is no real distinction possible with him, as there is with normal people, between truth and lies. He always tells people what they want to hear and he never means it. He always says ‘I can’t remember’ when they remind him and is rarely ‘lying’. He trusts nobody including his own family yet bears almost no grudges. He will sacrifice anybody for his career yet wants to make up with people who have screwed him over. He will use anybody for anything but is more polite than most top politicians towards junior staff. He is totally untrusted by anybody in No10 yet has a superpower for making people feel sorry for him — ‘I feel sorry for him like my old dead-beat boyfriend, I hate myself for it but I can’t help it’, said one in despair after a particularly dreadful meeting. He’s almost as comfortable with living in chaos as Floyd Mayweather but panics all day about the media. He sometimes compares himself to historic titans (Octavian is a favourite) and regularly admits it’s ludicrous he’s prime minister. He’s hopeless at bureaucratic infighting and examines every room he enters for physical escape routes.

He is both much more useless than the media portray and much more capable of self-awareness and ruthlessness than they ever portray, or his enemies usually discern. He routinely says and does things so foolish that people are open-mouthed, and is so hopeless at getting rid of duffers, so determined to avoid difficult situations, that people are usually shocked when he suddenly moves with ruthless speed to remove them. He was desperate to be prime minister but has almost no interest in the job.

This is the overriding impression I get: “He was desperate to be prime minister but has almost no interest in the job.” (After the lies and duplicity obviously)

Having spoken to people who had the misfortune of having to work with him when he was Mayor of London, they had the same criticism of him as Mayor; that he was completely uninterested in the mechanics of actually being Mayor.

To be fair to him, however he did it I think he did a pretty good job.

[Hal Jordan]

I see the anti-protest Bill got through Parliament. Funny how that's happened whilst we're all yelling "FREEDOM DAY!"

[Insane_Homer]

[Insane_Homer]

[Insane_Homer]

[Paddington Bear]

IH - comparing the Tory government to the Nazi occupiers of the Netherlands who were a core part of the Holocaust and deliberately starved the Dutch people is deeply inappropriate and you should really delete it. Whatever you think of the Tories what this does is trivialise what happened in Occupied Europe.

[Hal Jordan]

Lest we forget, Patel suggested withholding food supplies from Ireland as a negotiating tactic over Brexit.

Not Godwin levels, but she is an absolutely appalling human being who appears to revel in petty cruelty.

[Paddington Bear]

Right, and if she sends troops into Donegal the analogy becomes more apt. Until then stop it.

[Hal Jordan]

Right, and if she sends troops into Donegal the analogy becomes more apt. Until then stop it.

No, sorry, won't stop, she is absolutely vile. Even by the standards of your average Home Secretary she stands out as a horror show. She's taken the Hostile Environment and pumped it full of PEDs. And she's thick as mince.

But have no fear, after the right to protest and voter suppression, the Government will soon nobble the judiciary in their quest to remove any means of holding them to account, then those do gooder traitor judges won't keep finding her in breach of the law.

[JM2K6]

Hmm yes as the government enacts more and more fascist policies we should avoid drawing any comparisons with the nazis

because that would be offensive

and that's the real problem here

[robmatic]

Right, and if she sends troops into Donegal the analogy becomes more apt. Until then stop it.

No, sorry, won't stop, she is absolutely vile. Even by the standards of your average Home Secretary she stands out as a horror show. She's taken the Hostile Environment and pumped it full of PEDs. And she's thick as mince.

But have no fear, after the right to protest and voter suppression, the Government will soon nobble the judiciary in their quest to remove any means of holding them to account, then those do gooder traitor judges won't keep finding her in breach of the law.

She's a horrorshow of a Home Secretary but it is possible to disagree with someone without them being a Nazi murderer.

[ASMO]

IH - comparing the Tory government to the Nazi occupiers of the Netherlands who were a core part of the Holocaust and deliberately starved the Dutch people is deeply inappropriate and you should really delete it. Whatever you think of the Tories what this does is trivialise what happened in Occupied Europe.

I don't think it does, it highlights the fact that the journey to extremeism always starts with small things and gradually builds. Take the focus on immigration during the Brexit vote, the fear of the foreigner being a key tool used by those wanting to leave the EU, how is that really any different to the Nazi's demonising the Jews, the language may be different but the sentiment is the same. The Nazi's said that "Jews were an “alien race” that fed off the host nation, poisoned its culture" sound familiar? They then went on to remove citizenship from Jewish people who were in most cases born and bred in Germany.

[Slick]

Hmm yes as the government enacts more and more fascist policies we should avoid drawing any comparisons with the nazis

because that would be offensive

and that's the real problem here

Offensive? The real problem? Dunno. But it’s really really fucking stupid

[JM2K6]

Hmm yes as the government enacts more and more fascist policies we should avoid drawing any comparisons with the nazis

because that would be offensive

and that's the real problem here

Offensive? The real problem? Dunno. But it’s really really fucking stupid

I don't know why people get so heated up about it. If the government doesn't want to be compared to the Nazis, they should stop enacting policies the Nazis would've applauded.

No, the current British government is not reenacting the holocaust. Not really the point, though.

[robmatic]

Immigration policy and practice in the UK is basically broken, including the process for claiming and granting asylum, and it doesn't really help move things forward when any discussion of it quickly descends into 'Ya! Boo! Fascist!' Some of the reforms that need to happen will necessarily be more restrictive than current practices, or be Nazi-approved in other words.

And just to clarify my position, which is probably 80% Nazi

a) My day job involves actually helping people immigrate to the UK
b) One of the reasons I don't live in the UK is because of a stupid UK immigration law making it difficult for my foreign spouse to get a visa
c) I'm generally in favour of immigration
d) I don't like right wing nationalism and populism

[JM2K6]

Immigration policy and practice in the UK is basically broken, including the process for claiming and granting asylum, and it doesn't really help move things forward when any discussion of it quickly descends into 'Ya! Boo! Fascist!' Some of the reforms that need to happen will necessarily be more restrictive than current practices, or be Nazi-approved in other words.

And just to clarify my position, which is probably 80% Nazi

a) My day job involves actually helping people immigrate to the UK
b) One of the reasons I don't live in the UK is because of a stupid UK immigration law making it difficult for my foreign spouse to get a visa
c) I'm generally in favour of immigration
d) I don't like right wing nationalism and populism

Pretty cool of you to work with asylum seekers

[Paddington Bear]

Using Anne Frank to discuss British politics in 2021 is disgusting and this shouldn't need to be spelled out.


This is not, you will notice, is a defence of Priti Patel.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Immigration policy and practice in the UK is basically broken, including the process for claiming and granting asylum, and it doesn't really help move things forward when any discussion of it quickly descends into 'Ya! Boo! Fascist!' Some of the reforms that need to happen will necessarily be more restrictive than current practices, or be Nazi-approved in other words.

And just to clarify my position, which is probably 80% Nazi :roll:

a) My day job involves actually helping people immigrate to the UK
b) One of the reasons I don't live in the UK is because of a stupid UK immigration law making it difficult for my foreign spouse to get a visa
c) I'm generally in favour of immigration
d) I don't like right wing nationalism and populism

Pretty cool of you to work with asylum seekers :thumbup:

He’s a boat captain based in Calais.

[Paddington Bear]

IH - comparing the Tory government to the Nazi occupiers of the Netherlands who were a core part of the Holocaust and deliberately starved the Dutch people is deeply inappropriate and you should really delete it. Whatever you think of the Tories what this does is trivialise what happened in Occupied Europe.

I don't think it does, it highlights the fact that the journey to extremeism always starts with small things and gradually builds. Take the focus on immigration during the Brexit vote, the fear of the foreigner being a key tool used by those wanting to leave the EU, how is that really any different to the Nazi's demonising the Jews, the language may be different but the sentiment is the same. The Nazi's said that "Jews were an “alien race” that fed off the host nation, poisoned its culture" sound familiar? They then went on to remove citizenship from Jewish people who were in most cases born and bred in Germany.

Nazism didn't really start with little things, it was starting violent insurrections and beating/killing people in the streets nigh on 20 years before the Holocaust started, built upon long traditions of anti-Semitic violence and murder and arose from a nation ravaged by world and then civil war.
Hitler wasn't really coy about wanting to get rid of the Jews, it's all there in Mein Kampf (even if he didn't necessarily mean to exterminate them at the time) and in their election campaigns (IIRC the Austrian Nazis had a slogan like 'x million unemployed, x milllion Jews, spot the issue' pre Anschluss).

The comparison is silly, fascism and Nazism are unique events to the times and locations that they occurred in.

[JM2K6]

Using Anne Frank to discuss British politics in 2021 is disgusting and this shouldn't need to be spelled out.


This is not, you will notice, is a defence of Priti Patel.

British politics in 2021 is disgusting and shying away from the fascist tendencies of the mob in charge should not be a thing. Pearl-clutching because people draw obvious conclusions and parallels from insane new laws being proposed - after some of the garbage that's already been passed (e.g. the anti-protest law) - is just missing the point entirely.

No, no-one expects this government to go after the jews. But they're happy to stoke fear and hatred, happy to demonise the weak and vulnerable, happy to find ever crueller ways to hurt the poor and 'different'. Introducing a law that would criminalise the RNLI for doing their fucking job instead of letting desperate people drown deserves this sort of comparison.

People should protest it, but oh wait we're at the mercy of the whims of the state now as to what protests are allowed.

[JM2K6]

Oh hey is it time to post the list of things that define fascism again

hint: it's not "if it's not exactly like Nazi Germany, it's not fascism"

[Paddington Bear]

Using Anne Frank to discuss British politics in 2021 is disgusting and this shouldn't need to be spelled out.


This is not, you will notice, is a defence of Priti Patel.

British politics in 2021 is disgusting and shying away from the fascist tendencies of the mob in charge should not be a thing. Pearl-clutching because people draw obvious conclusions and parallels from insane new laws being proposed - after some of the garbage that's already been passed (e.g. the anti-protest law) - is just missing the point entirely.

No, no-one expects this government to go after the jews. But they're happy to stoke fear and hatred, happy to demonise the weak and vulnerable, happy to find ever crueller ways to hurt the poor and 'different'. Introducing a law that would criminalise the RNLI for doing their fucking job instead of letting desperate people drown deserves this sort of comparison.

People should protest it, but oh wait we're at the mercy of the whims of the state now as to what protests are allowed.

There are ways of making these points that don't co-opt in Holocaust victims, and they are more powerful for doing so. Fwiw comparing everything to the Nazis has become such a tired trope that I think it switches people off from arguments that they'd actually agree with.

[JM2K6]

Using Anne Frank to discuss British politics in 2021 is disgusting and this shouldn't need to be spelled out.


This is not, you will notice, is a defence of Priti Patel.

British politics in 2021 is disgusting and shying away from the fascist tendencies of the mob in charge should not be a thing. Pearl-clutching because people draw obvious conclusions and parallels from insane new laws being proposed - after some of the garbage that's already been passed (e.g. the anti-protest law) - is just missing the point entirely.

No, no-one expects this government to go after the jews. But they're happy to stoke fear and hatred, happy to demonise the weak and vulnerable, happy to find ever crueller ways to hurt the poor and 'different'. Introducing a law that would criminalise the RNLI for doing their fucking job instead of letting desperate people drown deserves this sort of comparison.

People should protest it, but oh wait we're at the mercy of the whims of the state now as to what protests are allowed.

There are ways of making these points that don't co-opt in Holocaust victims, and they are more powerful for doing so. Fwiw comparing everything to the Nazis has become such a tired trope that I think it switches people off from arguments that they'd actually agree with.

If they've not already made their minds up by now I'm pretty sure the Nazi comparisons are irrelevant. It's not an attempt to win an argument.

I found it a pretty powerful comparison but then I don't have that sort of reflex "no, you CAN'T mention the Nazis!" reaction when people talk about fascist policies in that context. And I'd rather be angry about this shit happening right now than be angry about <checks notes> people drawing comparison with the most famous fascists when discussing fascist policies

[robmatic]

Immigration policy and practice in the UK is basically broken, including the process for claiming and granting asylum, and it doesn't really help move things forward when any discussion of it quickly descends into 'Ya! Boo! Fascist!' Some of the reforms that need to happen will necessarily be more restrictive than current practices, or be Nazi-approved in other words.

And just to clarify my position, which is probably 80% Nazi

a) My day job involves actually helping people immigrate to the UK
b) One of the reasons I don't live in the UK is because of a stupid UK immigration law making it difficult for my foreign spouse to get a visa
c) I'm generally in favour of immigration
d) I don't like right wing nationalism and populism

Pretty cool of you to work with asylum seekers

He’s a boat captain based in Calais.

Lorry driver.

[robmatic]

British politics in 2021 is disgusting and shying away from the fascist tendencies of the mob in charge should not be a thing. Pearl-clutching because people draw obvious conclusions and parallels from insane new laws being proposed - after some of the garbage that's already been passed (e.g. the anti-protest law) - is just missing the point entirely.

No, no-one expects this government to go after the jews. But they're happy to stoke fear and hatred, happy to demonise the weak and vulnerable, happy to find ever crueller ways to hurt the poor and 'different'. Introducing a law that would criminalise the RNLI for doing their fucking job instead of letting desperate people drown deserves this sort of comparison.

People should protest it, but oh wait we're at the mercy of the whims of the state now as to what protests are allowed.

There are ways of making these points that don't co-opt in Holocaust victims, and they are more powerful for doing so. Fwiw comparing everything to the Nazis has become such a tired trope that I think it switches people off from arguments that they'd actually agree with.

If they've not already made their minds up by now I'm pretty sure the Nazi comparisons are irrelevant. It's not an attempt to win an argument.

I found it a pretty powerful comparison but then I don't have that sort of reflex "no, you CAN'T mention the Nazis!" reaction when people talk about fascist policies in that context. And I'd rather be angry about this shit happening right now than be angry about <checks notes> people drawing comparison with the most famous fascists when discussing fascist policies

We get it, you are morally righteous and the people you disagree with are evil monsters.

[Paddington Bear]

British politics in 2021 is disgusting and shying away from the fascist tendencies of the mob in charge should not be a thing. Pearl-clutching because people draw obvious conclusions and parallels from insane new laws being proposed - after some of the garbage that's already been passed (e.g. the anti-protest law) - is just missing the point entirely.

No, no-one expects this government to go after the jews. But they're happy to stoke fear and hatred, happy to demonise the weak and vulnerable, happy to find ever crueller ways to hurt the poor and 'different'. Introducing a law that would criminalise the RNLI for doing their fucking job instead of letting desperate people drown deserves this sort of comparison.

People should protest it, but oh wait we're at the mercy of the whims of the state now as to what protests are allowed.

There are ways of making these points that don't co-opt in Holocaust victims, and they are more powerful for doing so. Fwiw comparing everything to the Nazis has become such a tired trope that I think it switches people off from arguments that they'd actually agree with.

If they've not already made their minds up by now I'm pretty sure the Nazi comparisons are irrelevant. It's not an attempt to win an argument.

I found it a pretty powerful comparison but then I don't have that sort of reflex "no, you CAN'T mention the Nazis!" reaction when people talk about fascist policies in that context. And I'd rather be angry about this shit happening right now than be angry about <checks notes> people drawing comparison with the most famous fascists when discussing fascist policies

I’ve been specifically talking about using Anne Frank as part of a political argument, notable that you reference it back to the Nazis more generally.

[JM2K6]

We get it, you are morally righteous and the people you disagree with are evil monsters.

I think Patel is an evil monster, along with a lot of the current Tory mob. I don't think you or Paddington are evil monsters. Bizarrely focusing on exactly the wrong thing, sure, but at no point have I even suggested you guys agree with what they're doing, let alone accused you of being like them. I hold no opinion on either of you as people and I frankly take it as default that you're both good people.

So maybe fuck off with that shit and let's argue about what the Tories are actually doing rather than crying because fascist policies get comparisons with fascist states?

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/priti-patel ... lp-1090690

While Tory MPs make speeches about their love of freedom in the Covid debate, the Home Office is busy churning out authoritarian legislation.

On Monday night, the policing bill, which silences protestors, passed its third reading. The next morning, the department published its latest effort: the Nationality and Borders Bill. It has a range of provisions, but its central aim seems quite simple: it is a systematic attempt to criminalise asylum seekers.

...

In 2019, about 62 per cent of asylum seekers entered the country irregularly. That shouldn’t discredit their claim. The majority are genuine refugees who are subsequently granted that status. It simply means that they’re desperate.

...

It permits authorities to sentence anyone who helps an asylum seeker reach Britain to life imprisonment, even if they received no financial payment for doing so.

...

These rules appear to be in clear contravention of the United Nations 1951 Refugee Convention – the key international treaty protecting those fleeing persecution.

Article 31 of the convention protects those who use irregular routes. It states that countries “shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees… coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened”.

Patel has effectively gone to war with this Article. Her attack centres on the word “directly”.

The convention did not state – and its authors did not intend – for that word to indicate that the refugee arrived without stopping anywhere else. There is no obligation in the convention for refugees to claim asylum in the first safe country they reach. And it’s not the definition which operates under English law either. In the 1999 court case of R v Uxbridge Magistrates Court, Lord Justice Simon Brown ruled that “some element of choice is indeed open to refugees as to where they may properly claim asylum”.

But Patel seemingly wants to redefine “directly” so that it means they came to the UK without visiting any countries in which they could be “reasonably expected” to have “sought protection”.

...

Underneath the warm words, this is what the bill actually does. It works to end asylum by criminalising and punishing all the things which someone must do in order to claim it.

It's absolutely fucking disgusting, and you don't need to be 'morally righteous' to see it.

[JM2K6]

There are ways of making these points that don't co-opt in Holocaust victims, and they are more powerful for doing so. Fwiw comparing everything to the Nazis has become such a tired trope that I think it switches people off from arguments that they'd actually agree with.

If they've not already made their minds up by now I'm pretty sure the Nazi comparisons are irrelevant. It's not an attempt to win an argument.

I found it a pretty powerful comparison but then I don't have that sort of reflex "no, you CAN'T mention the Nazis!" reaction when people talk about fascist policies in that context. And I'd rather be angry about this shit happening right now than be angry about <checks notes> people drawing comparison with the most famous fascists when discussing fascist policies

I’ve been specifically talking about using Anne Frank as part of a political argument, notable that you reference it back to the Nazis more generally.

The post of yours I replied to talked about comparing everything to the Nazis. But fair point re: Anne Frank in particular. She's used because she can be a reference point that everyone understands.

[Rinkals]

We get it, you are morally righteous and the people you disagree with are evil monsters.

I think Patel is an evil monster, along with a lot of the current Tory mob. I don't think you or Paddington are evil monsters. Bizarrely focusing on exactly the wrong thing, sure, but at no point have I even suggested you guys agree with what they're doing, let alone accused you of being like them. I hold no opinion on either of you as people and I frankly take it as default that you're both good people.

So maybe fuck off with that shit and let's argue about what the Tories are actually doing rather than crying because fascist policies get comparisons with fascist states?

https://inews.co.uk/opinion/priti-patel ... lp-1090690

While Tory MPs make speeches about their love of freedom in the Covid debate, the Home Office is busy churning out authoritarian legislation.

On Monday night, the policing bill, which silences protestors, passed its third reading. The next morning, the department published its latest effort: the Nationality and Borders Bill. It has a range of provisions, but its central aim seems quite simple: it is a systematic attempt to criminalise asylum seekers.

...

In 2019, about 62 per cent of asylum seekers entered the country irregularly. That shouldn’t discredit their claim. The majority are genuine refugees who are subsequently granted that status. It simply means that they’re desperate.

...

It permits authorities to sentence anyone who helps an asylum seeker reach Britain to life imprisonment, even if they received no financial payment for doing so.

...

These rules appear to be in clear contravention of the United Nations 1951 Refugee Convention – the key international treaty protecting those fleeing persecution.

Article 31 of the convention protects those who use irregular routes. It states that countries “shall not impose penalties, on account of their illegal entry or presence, on refugees… coming directly from a territory where their life or freedom was threatened”.

Patel has effectively gone to war with this Article. Her attack centres on the word “directly”.

The convention did not state – and its authors did not intend – for that word to indicate that the refugee arrived without stopping anywhere else. There is no obligation in the convention for refugees to claim asylum in the first safe country they reach. And it’s not the definition which operates under English law either. In the 1999 court case of R v Uxbridge Magistrates Court, Lord Justice Simon Brown ruled that “some element of choice is indeed open to refugees as to where they may properly claim asylum”.

But Patel seemingly wants to redefine “directly” so that it means they came to the UK without visiting any countries in which they could be “reasonably expected” to have “sought protection”.

...

Underneath the warm words, this is what the bill actually does. It works to end asylum by criminalising and punishing all the things which someone must do in order to claim it.

It's absolutely fucking disgusting, and you don't need to be 'morally righteous' to see it.

Does this not have to go before the Lords?

I haven't lived in the UK since 2004, but in those days, the Lords had a tendency to chuck out blatantly discriminatory and stupid legislation.

If an unelected House is simply there to rubber stamp frivolous laws promulgated by the Government of the day, then it has clearly outlived it's usefulness.

[JM2K6]

The Lords is overwhelmingly Tory, another thing Boris and his chums have ignored political norms to ensure.

[Rinkals]

The Lords is overwhelmingly Tory, another thing Boris and his chums have ignored political norms to ensure.

I used to be generally supportive of an unelected second House, but if it's just there to rubberstamp legislation, then it's a waste of time (and money).

[fishfoodie]

The Lords is overwhelmingly Tory, another thing Boris and his chums have ignored political norms to ensure.

I used to be generally supportive of an unelected second House, but if it's just there to rubberstamp legislation, then it's a waste of time (and money).

It's another case of where not having a written Constitution; & just relying on an inherent decency; & honesty amongst the political classes, is now an unsustainable position.

Even with a Constitution; the US systems failed to protect it from a narcissistic, looter; who didn't even win the popular vote

[Biffer]

Immigration policy and practice in the UK is basically broken, including the process for claiming and granting asylum, and it doesn't really help move things forward when any discussion of it quickly descends into 'Ya! Boo! Fascist!' Some of the reforms that need to happen will necessarily be more restrictive than current practices, or be Nazi-approved in other words.

And just to clarify my position, which is probably 80% Nazi

a) My day job involves actually helping people immigrate to the UK
b) One of the reasons I don't live in the UK is because of a stupid UK immigration law making it difficult for my foreign spouse to get a visa
c) I'm generally in favour of immigration
d) I don't like right wing nationalism and populism

Well, if you help an asylum seeker to enter the UK, you will now be considered a criminal by the UK, because of this government.

[Rinkals]

The Lords is overwhelmingly Tory, another thing Boris and his chums have ignored political norms to ensure.

I used to be generally supportive of an unelected second House, but if it's just there to rubberstamp legislation, then it's a waste of time (and money).

It's another case of where not having a written Constitution; & just relying on an inherent decency; & honesty amongst the political classes, is now an unsustainable position.

Even with a Constitution; the US systems failed to protect it from a narcissistic, looter; who didn't even win the popular vote

How depressingly true.