White privilege and other matters

[notfatcat]

I've seen some odd things directed at Patel on Facebook over the last several days.

Taking the knee is surely the very definition of gesture politics.

[Rinkals]

I've seen some odd things directed at Patel on Facebook over the last several days.

Taking the knee is surely the very definition of gesture politics.

Are you suggesting that drawing attention to racist behaviour is hypocritical?

Presumably that is because you feel that such behaviour doesn't exist?

Because I feel that it does exist and I feel that taking the knee is a valid way of drawing attention to it.

[notfatcat]

Are you suggesting that drawing attention to racist behaviour is hypocritical?

No I'm not.

[Paddington Bear]

A few thousand people across England absolutely disgraced themselves on Sunday, whilst the vast majority had a great day.
Note the condemnation of racism is near universal, from The Sun downward.
Wembley was carnage but compare it to England fans of the 90s and there's no comparison.
After the loss in 96 there were riots, severe criminal damage to German businesses and a murder. Beyond a few cretins round Trafalgar Square, on Sunday just about everyone went home. 78% are proud of the team rather than disappointed, there's no effigies on streets or dartboards in the papers.

Obviously we still have major strides to take, but the revulsion (and that is the word) across English society at the way some people have treated the players is indicative of a society that has transformed in 20 odd years.

Social media amplifies cretins, they clearly do not speak for England.

And the people calling the Italian win a victory for anti-racism can cop the fuck on.

[I like neeps]

A few thousand people across England absolutely disgraced themselves on Sunday, whilst the vast majority had a great day.
Note the condemnation of racism is near universal, from The Sun downward.
Wembley was carnage but compare it to England fans of the 90s and there's no comparison.
After the loss in 96 there were riots, severe criminal damage to German businesses and a murder. Beyond a few cretins round Trafalgar Square, on Sunday just about everyone went home. 78% are proud of the team rather than disappointed, there's no effigies on streets or dartboards in the papers.

Obviously we still have major strides to take, but the revulsion (and that is the word) across English society at the way some people have treated the players is indicative of a society that has transformed in 20 odd years.

Social media amplifies cretins, they clearly do not speak for England.

And the people calling the Italian win a victory for anti-racism can cop the fuck on.

The problem is when to Home Secretary says it's okay for fans to boo an anti racist gesture.

[Tichtheid]

I see that England player Tyrone Mings has called out Priti Patel (for non-UKers, she is the Home Secretary)

Mings tweeted a response to her voicing her disgust at the racist abuse aimed at some of the team after Sunday's defeat;

“You don’t get to stoke the fire at the beginning of the tournament by labelling our anti-racism message as ‘Gesture Politics’ & then pretend to be disgusted when the very thing we’re campaigning against, happens.”

https://theathletic.com/news/tyrone-min ... FSvG0dJgLE

Also for non UK'ers
Thats Priti Patel of Asian background who has quite often been racially abused by numerous Lefties in UK Politics.
Even in the House of Commons

I don't doubt that's true, there are nutters across the board, but can you point to particular incidents of Patel being racially abused by political figures in the house of commons or elsewhere?
I don't remember her being the butt of racist abuse, but I am open to hearing about it.

[Paddington Bear]

A few thousand people across England absolutely disgraced themselves on Sunday, whilst the vast majority had a great day.
Note the condemnation of racism is near universal, from The Sun downward.
Wembley was carnage but compare it to England fans of the 90s and there's no comparison.
After the loss in 96 there were riots, severe criminal damage to German businesses and a murder. Beyond a few cretins round Trafalgar Square, on Sunday just about everyone went home. 78% are proud of the team rather than disappointed, there's no effigies on streets or dartboards in the papers.

Obviously we still have major strides to take, but the revulsion (and that is the word) across English society at the way some people have treated the players is indicative of a society that has transformed in 20 odd years.

Social media amplifies cretins, they clearly do not speak for England.

And the people calling the Italian win a victory for anti-racism can cop the fuck on.

The problem is when to Home Secretary says it's okay for fans to boo an anti racist gesture.

Which only a tiny minority across the country did, which is my point, and I don't think whatever the Government said would have stopped the thousand or so who tweeted vile stuff on Sunday night. Doesn't excuse anyone's actions, just puts them into the perspective that even The Sun realises the money (of course it's not principle with them) follows anti racism now. This certainly wasn't true 20 years ago.

England as a nation is voting with it's feet on this.

[assfly]

I often find that when we are repeatedly told "it's a minority", it's not always the case.

[Tichtheid]

A few thousand people across England absolutely disgraced themselves on Sunday, whilst the vast majority had a great day.
Note the condemnation of racism is near universal, from The Sun downward.
Wembley was carnage but compare it to England fans of the 90s and there's no comparison.
After the loss in 96 there were riots, severe criminal damage to German businesses and a murder. Beyond a few cretins round Trafalgar Square, on Sunday just about everyone went home. 78% are proud of the team rather than disappointed, there's no effigies on streets or dartboards in the papers.

Obviously we still have major strides to take, but the revulsion (and that is the word) across English society at the way some people have treated the players is indicative of a society that has transformed in 20 odd years.

Social media amplifies cretins, they clearly do not speak for England.

And the people calling the Italian win a victory for anti-racism can cop the fuck on.

The problem is when to Home Secretary says it's okay for fans to boo an anti racist gesture.

Which only a tiny minority across the country did, which is my point, and I don't think whatever the Government said would have stopped the thousand or so who tweeted vile stuff on Sunday night. Doesn't excuse anyone's actions, just puts them into the perspective that even The Sun realises the money (of course it's not principle with them) follows anti racism now. This certainly wasn't true 20 years ago.

England as a nation is voting with it's feet on this.

Doesn't the Home Secretary have some kind of responsibility to lead by example on this?

[Paddington Bear]

I often find that when we are repeatedly told "it's a minority", it's not always the case.

If you think 1,000 twitter accounts better represents the nation than opinion polling, the universal take of the national press, the vast outpourings on social media, condemnation from across the political spectrum and from virtually all aspects of civil society that's fine, but I suspect it might just be easier to say you'd never give English people the benefit of the doubt.

[Tichtheid]

I often find that when we are repeatedly told "it's a minority", it's not always the case.

..or it's a sizeable minority, at least.

and the Home Secretary seems to have their backs

[notfatcat]

Maybe I've got it wrong but I thought she said they have every right to boo taking the knee, not that she said they should do.

[assfly]

If you think 1,000 twitter accounts better represents the nation than opinion polling, the universal take of the national press, the vast outpourings on social media, condemnation from across the political spectrum and from virtually all aspects of civil society that's fine, but I suspect it might just be easier to say you'd never give English people the benefit of the doubt.

Not at all. I know the English well from my time living and working there. What we're seeing isn't a surprise to me, which is why I believe perhaps it's time to realise it's not a minority.

[I like neeps]

A few thousand people across England absolutely disgraced themselves on Sunday, whilst the vast majority had a great day.
Note the condemnation of racism is near universal, from The Sun downward.
Wembley was carnage but compare it to England fans of the 90s and there's no comparison.
After the loss in 96 there were riots, severe criminal damage to German businesses and a murder. Beyond a few cretins round Trafalgar Square, on Sunday just about everyone went home. 78% are proud of the team rather than disappointed, there's no effigies on streets or dartboards in the papers.

Obviously we still have major strides to take, but the revulsion (and that is the word) across English society at the way some people have treated the players is indicative of a society that has transformed in 20 odd years.

Social media amplifies cretins, they clearly do not speak for England.

And the people calling the Italian win a victory for anti-racism can cop the fuck on.

The problem is when to Home Secretary says it's okay for fans to boo an anti racist gesture.

Which only a tiny minority across the country did, which is my point, and I don't think whatever the Government said would have stopped the thousand or so who tweeted vile stuff on Sunday night. Doesn't excuse anyone's actions, just puts them into the perspective that even The Sun realises the money (of course it's not principle with them) follows anti racism now. This certainly wasn't true 20 years ago.

England as a nation is voting with it's feet on this.

She said it because she thought it would be popular though, we've got a never ending culture war ongoing. So yes the vocal racists are a minority but the Sun run hundreds of negative stories about Sterling and Patel suggests booing players kneeling is okay because a lot of people agree/positively engage with that position whether it's clicking on the story or voting Tory.

[Paddington Bear]

The problem is when to Home Secretary says it's okay for fans to boo an anti racist gesture.

Which only a tiny minority across the country did, which is my point, and I don't think whatever the Government said would have stopped the thousand or so who tweeted vile stuff on Sunday night. Doesn't excuse anyone's actions, just puts them into the perspective that even The Sun realises the money (of course it's not principle with them) follows anti racism now. This certainly wasn't true 20 years ago.

England as a nation is voting with it's feet on this.

She said it because she thought it would be popular though, we've got a never ending culture war ongoing. So yes the vocal racists are a minority but the Sun run hundreds of negative stories about Sterling and Patel suggests booing players kneeling is okay because a lot of people agree/positively engage with that position whether it's clicking on the story or voting Tory.

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

[GogLais]

Maybe I've got it wrong but I thought she said they have every right to boo taking the knee, not that she said they should do.

If she’d wanted to she could have said people are free to boo but she’d rather they didn’t, I’d guess she’d have said something on those lines about booing anthems for example.

[notfatcat]

Maybe I've got it wrong but I thought she said they have every right to boo taking the knee, not that she said they should do.

If she’d wanted to she could have said people are free to boo but she’d rather they didn’t, I’d guess she’d have said something on those lines about booing anthems for example.

Yep.

[MoreOrLess]

Maybe I've got it wrong but I thought she said they have every right to boo taking the knee, not that she said they should do.

If she’d wanted to she could have said people are free to boo but she’d rather they didn’t, I’d guess she’d have said something on those lines about booing anthems for example.

It's a similar "we won't stop you, but you shouldn't" line that the gov have taken to dropping face masks. I'd have thought racism is a much more important issue to take that view on than whether or not I wear some recycled boxer shorts on my face in tesco.

Obviously priti disagrees.

[Random1]

We are sitting with a similar issue in South Africa.
White people who were born here from generations of white people who were born here are not considered to be African.

You piqued my interest on South Africa, so had a bit of a google and found this;

Is this programme mainstream or a shock jock thing? As the racism (anti white) is pretty overt and felt really divisive.

[Slick]

A few thousand people across England absolutely disgraced themselves on Sunday, whilst the vast majority had a great day.
Note the condemnation of racism is near universal, from The Sun downward.
Wembley was carnage but compare it to England fans of the 90s and there's no comparison.
After the loss in 96 there were riots, severe criminal damage to German businesses and a murder. Beyond a few cretins round Trafalgar Square, on Sunday just about everyone went home. 78% are proud of the team rather than disappointed, there's no effigies on streets or dartboards in the papers.

Obviously we still have major strides to take, but the revulsion (and that is the word) across English society at the way some people have treated the players is indicative of a society that has transformed in 20 odd years.

Social media amplifies cretins, they clearly do not speak for England.

And the people calling the Italian win a victory for anti-racism can cop the fuck on.

Well said.

I also wonder if there would have been the same amount of revulsion and general reaction to the abuse in any other country (I'm talking UK) on the planet. I think not. We are very far from perfect but completely agree that things have moved a good way forward in the last few years.

[Random1]

Which only a tiny minority across the country did, which is my point, and I don't think whatever the Government said would have stopped the thousand or so who tweeted vile stuff on Sunday night. Doesn't excuse anyone's actions, just puts them into the perspective that even The Sun realises the money (of course it's not principle with them) follows anti racism now. This certainly wasn't true 20 years ago.

England as a nation is voting with it's feet on this.

She said it because she thought it would be popular though, we've got a never ending culture war ongoing. So yes the vocal racists are a minority but the Sun run hundreds of negative stories about Sterling and Patel suggests booing players kneeling is okay because a lot of people agree/positively engage with that position whether it's clicking on the story or voting Tory.

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

Completely agree, social change over that timeframe is something we should be proud of.

Conversely though, the fact that there are still such racist pricks out there makes me feel a decent level of shame.

It’s made me warm to the taking a knee symbol - it’s clear we always need to be working to reduce the number of people who feel racism is acceptable.

[Slick]

She said it because she thought it would be popular though, we've got a never ending culture war ongoing. So yes the vocal racists are a minority but the Sun run hundreds of negative stories about Sterling and Patel suggests booing players kneeling is okay because a lot of people agree/positively engage with that position whether it's clicking on the story or voting Tory.

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

Completely agree, social change over that timeframe is something we should be proud of.

Conversely though, the fact that there are still such racist pricks out there makes me feel a decent level of shame.

It’s made me warm to the taking a knee symbol - it’s clear we always need to be working to reduce the number of people who feel racism is acceptable.

Yes, I've been thinking about that also. I get that taking a knee is a bit divisive re the link to BLM so can't we come up with our own UK version that is unambiguously anti-racist/anti-bigotry and can be taken up across the sporting, cultural, political, social, etc groups.

[robmatic]

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

Completely agree, social change over that timeframe is something we should be proud of.

Conversely though, the fact that there are still such racist pricks out there makes me feel a decent level of shame.

It’s made me warm to the taking a knee symbol - it’s clear we always need to be working to reduce the number of people who feel racism is acceptable.

Yes, I've been thinking about that also. I get that taking a knee is a bit divisive re the link to BLM so can't we come up with our own UK version that is unambiguously anti-racist/anti-bigotry and can be taken up across the sporting, cultural, political, social, etc groups.

I expect that the people who have an issue with taking the knee would still have an issue with whatever the gesture would be. I'm not a massive fan of American culture war stuff being imported to the UK but the whole supposed issue of it being Marxist is absolute bollocks.

[Biffer]

I often find that when we are repeatedly told "it's a minority", it's not always the case.

If you think 1,000 twitter accounts better represents the nation than opinion polling, the universal take of the national press, the vast outpourings on social media, condemnation from across the political spectrum and from virtually all aspects of civil society that's fine, but I suspect it might just be easier to say you'd never give English people the benefit of the doubt.

The problem is 'it's a minority' is a throwaway line that can refer to millions of people. 40% is a minority. That's 25 million people in the UK (not that I'm suggesting that many people were racist online). The actions (or lack of actions / condemnations) embolden more people so that minority gets bigger.

And what do you mean by English people? Rashford and Sterling are English people and he's given them the benefit of the doubt quite clearly.

[Biffer]

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

Completely agree, social change over that timeframe is something we should be proud of.

Conversely though, the fact that there are still such racist pricks out there makes me feel a decent level of shame.

It’s made me warm to the taking a knee symbol - it’s clear we always need to be working to reduce the number of people who feel racism is acceptable.

Yes, I've been thinking about that also. I get that taking a knee is a bit divisive re the link to BLM so can't we come up with our own UK version that is unambiguously anti-racist/anti-bigotry and can be taken up across the sporting, cultural, political, social, etc groups.

It's difficult to come up with an anti racist symbol that racists are comfortable with to be honest.

[Paddington Bear]

I often find that when we are repeatedly told "it's a minority", it's not always the case.

If you think 1,000 twitter accounts better represents the nation than opinion polling, the universal take of the national press, the vast outpourings on social media, condemnation from across the political spectrum and from virtually all aspects of civil society that's fine, but I suspect it might just be easier to say you'd never give English people the benefit of the doubt.

The problem is 'it's a minority' is a throwaway line that can refer to millions of people. 40% is a minority. That's 25 million people in the UK (not that I'm suggesting that many people were racist online). The actions (or lack of actions / condemnations) embolden more people so that minority gets bigger.

And what do you mean by English people? Rashford and Sterling are English people and he's given them the benefit of the doubt quite clearly.

Not sure what 40% refers to. If it turns out 40% of the country have been racially abusing the team I would fully agree we have a serious, serious problem.
I’m suggesting that the numbers involved are significantly smaller, the abuse came from about 1,000 twitter accounts, at least some of them not English. 1,000 too many of course.

And lack of condemnations? It’s been universal across English society. People are having their careers ended for joining it with it.
The Sun is going hard on it. This shows the way the wind is blowing in England. More still to do? Of course. But don’t pretend England hasn’t changed.

[Biffer]

If you think 1,000 twitter accounts better represents the nation than opinion polling, the universal take of the national press, the vast outpourings on social media, condemnation from across the political spectrum and from virtually all aspects of civil society that's fine, but I suspect it might just be easier to say you'd never give English people the benefit of the doubt.

The problem is 'it's a minority' is a throwaway line that can refer to millions of people. 40% is a minority. That's 25 million people in the UK (not that I'm suggesting that many people were racist online). The actions (or lack of actions / condemnations) embolden more people so that minority gets bigger.

And what do you mean by English people? Rashford and Sterling are English people and he's given them the benefit of the doubt quite clearly.

Not sure what 40% refers to. If it turns out 40% of the country have been racially abusing the team I would fully agree we have a serious, serious problem.
I’m suggesting that the numbers involved are significantly smaller, the abuse came from about 1,000 twitter accounts, at least some of them not English. 1,000 too many of course.

And lack of condemnations? It’s been universal across English society. People are having their careers ended for joining it with it.
The Sun is going hard on it. This shows the way the wind is blowing in England. More still to do? Of course. But don’t pretend England hasn’t changed.

The 40% is just an example of what a minority can actually be, and what the line 'it's a minority' can be used to obscure. As I said, it's not a suggestion that many were involved as it's obvious they weren't. The lack of actions I'm referring to are Johnson and Patel saying it's ok to boo an anti-racist stance. They didn't have to jump right on board with kneeling, it's possible to produce a more nuanced message than that. But defending people booing what was an anti racist protest is likely to have made the abuse more widespread.

And the country has changed, yes. You can't just be casually racist on a public platform in the way you could a few decades ago. To me that demonstrates that protest and public pressure works.

[Slick]

Completely agree, social change over that timeframe is something we should be proud of.

Conversely though, the fact that there are still such racist pricks out there makes me feel a decent level of shame.

It’s made me warm to the taking a knee symbol - it’s clear we always need to be working to reduce the number of people who feel racism is acceptable.

Yes, I've been thinking about that also. I get that taking a knee is a bit divisive re the link to BLM so can't we come up with our own UK version that is unambiguously anti-racist/anti-bigotry and can be taken up across the sporting, cultural, political, social, etc groups.

It's difficult to come up with an anti racist symbol that racists are comfortable with to be honest.

So which of the sportsmen, including many black sportsmen, are you calling racist for not wanting to take the knee?

[Biffer]

Yes, I've been thinking about that also. I get that taking a knee is a bit divisive re the link to BLM so can't we come up with our own UK version that is unambiguously anti-racist/anti-bigotry and can be taken up across the sporting, cultural, political, social, etc groups.

It's difficult to come up with an anti racist symbol that racists are comfortable with to be honest.

So which of the sportsmen, including many black sportsmen, are you calling racist for not wanting to take the knee?

Where did I say that?

[Random1]

Completely agree, social change over that timeframe is something we should be proud of.

Conversely though, the fact that there are still such racist pricks out there makes me feel a decent level of shame.

It’s made me warm to the taking a knee symbol - it’s clear we always need to be working to reduce the number of people who feel racism is acceptable.

Yes, I've been thinking about that also. I get that taking a knee is a bit divisive re the link to BLM so can't we come up with our own UK version that is unambiguously anti-racist/anti-bigotry and can be taken up across the sporting, cultural, political, social, etc groups.

I expect that the people who have an issue with taking the knee would still have an issue with whatever the gesture would be. I'm not a massive fan of American culture war stuff being imported to the UK but the whole supposed issue of it being Marxist is absolute bollocks.

Depends whether you think post modernism is derived/influenced by Marxism.

For me, the philosophical links between them feel well established.

Therefore I think current culture war stuff can be seen as a Marxist product.

[Slick]

It's difficult to come up with an anti racist symbol that racists are comfortable with to be honest.

So which of the sportsmen, including many black sportsmen, are you calling racist for not wanting to take the knee?

Where did I say that?

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you were getting at.

What were you getting at?

[Tichtheid]

Depends whether you think post modernism is derived/influenced by Marxism.

For me, the philosophical links between them feel well established.

Therefore I think current culture war stuff can be seen as a Marxist product.

That is genuinely hilarious.

Have you ever come across the phrase "That is not even wrong"?

It comes from an academic who was shown an undegrad paper that was so far off it was "not even wrong"

[Random1]

Depends whether you think post modernism is derived/influenced by Marxism.

For me, the philosophical links between them feel well established.

Therefore I think current culture war stuff can be seen as a Marxist product.

That is genuinely hilarious.

Have you ever come across the phrase "That is not even wrong"?

It comes from an academic who was shown an undegrad paper that was so far off it was "not even wrong"

Care to explain?

[Tichtheid]

Depends whether you think post modernism is derived/influenced by Marxism.

For me, the philosophical links between them feel well established.

Therefore I think current culture war stuff can be seen as a Marxist product.

That is genuinely hilarious.

Have you ever come across the phrase "That is not even wrong"?

It comes from an academic who was shown an undegrad paper that was so far off it was "not even wrong"

Care to explain?

Just so as we can establish some common ground regarding the terms, and in order that we are talking about the same things, perhaps you could outline some tenets or a definition of Postmodernism?
Then the same with Marxism

I'll start, among other things Postmodernism is about scepticism, irony, ambiguity, deconstructionism, self-reference, it denies universal truths, objective reality and materialism.

Marxism ain't that, at all.

I think Jordan Peterson saw that a couple of French guys were Marxists in the 60s and made some great big leap, with which he made a million bucks a year from desperate people on Patreon.
It's a bit like Scientology.

[Biffer]

So which of the sportsmen, including many black sportsmen, are you calling racist for not wanting to take the knee?

Where did I say that?

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you were getting at.

What were you getting at?

I wasn't getting at anything other than it's difficult to find anti racist symbols that racists are comfortable with.

[Openside]

Which only a tiny minority across the country did, which is my point, and I don't think whatever the Government said would have stopped the thousand or so who tweeted vile stuff on Sunday night. Doesn't excuse anyone's actions, just puts them into the perspective that even The Sun realises the money (of course it's not principle with them) follows anti racism now. This certainly wasn't true 20 years ago.

England as a nation is voting with it's feet on this.

She said it because she thought it would be popular though, we've got a never ending culture war ongoing. So yes the vocal racists are a minority but the Sun run hundreds of negative stories about Sterling and Patel suggests booing players kneeling is okay because a lot of people agree/positively engage with that position whether it's clicking on the story or voting Tory.

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

That was bizarre - I had followed him on Twitter a while ago as a video he did was amusing (none of the others have been) and I saw his tweets just after the match and thought WTF and unfollowed him. Professional suicide!!

[Paddington Bear]

The idea that Southgate is a Marxist pushing subversion against the State through taking the knee would still be laughable had he not written an essay to the nation pre tournament citing his love of Queen and Country, but is especially laughable given that he did

[sockwithaticket]

She said it because she thought it would be popular though, we've got a never ending culture war ongoing. So yes the vocal racists are a minority but the Sun run hundreds of negative stories about Sterling and Patel suggests booing players kneeling is okay because a lot of people agree/positively engage with that position whether it's clicking on the story or voting Tory.

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

That was bizarre - I had followed him on Twitter a while ago as a video he did was amusing (none of the others have been) and I saw his tweets just after the match and thought WTF and unfollowed him. Professional suicide!!

I remember perhaps a decade ago he was a genuinely funny up and coming comedian. I'd completely forgotten he existed until today when his bizarre tweet came up somewhere on Reddit. Turns out even prior to this he's basically been ostracised by the Uk comedy industry for dropping off a cliff humour-wise and skirting ever closer to just out and out racism, culminating in what's just happened.

[Openside]

Interestingly, the government moved away from their position because they worked out it wasn't popular. There is a culture war but English attitudes to race are actually not so different across party lines, hard to believe if you're very online but the evidence is in front of us.

The stories became so parodied that they have all but stopped - the market for them has declined significantly. As I've said, I don't ascribe morals to The Sun or The Mail, they've made a commercial decision that those stories hurt them.

As another point, in the 90s Baddiel did a comedy bit in blackface mocking a player (forget who) on national TV. Waved through as a bit because people thought nothing of it and clearly people thought it was funny. Compare that to Andrew Lawrence basically ending his career yesterday. England has made huge progress.

That was bizarre - I had followed him on Twitter a while ago as a video he did was amusing (none of the others have been) and I saw his tweets just after the match and thought WTF and unfollowed him. Professional suicide!!

I remember perhaps a decade ago he was a genuinely funny up and coming comedian. I'd completely forgotten he existed until today when his bizarre tweet came up somewhere on Reddit. Turns out even prior to this he's basically been ostracised by the Uk comedy industry for dropping off a cliff humour-wise and skirting ever closer to just out and out racism, culminating in what's just happened.

Makes sense, just had a total brain bypass.

[Yeeb]

I wonder which camping supplies shop he used ?