The Official English Rugby Thread

[Glaston]

Cockers has left Edinburgh to pursue other opportunities, so expect him to rock up somewhere fairly shortly

Which clubs have space for a spectacularly grumpy head/forwards coach?

Sale surely

[Margin__Walker]

Maybe he's jacking it all in to open that yoga retreat



But yeah, France somewhere would probably be the front runner.

[Saint]

Mallinder gooooooonnnnnnneeeee......


To play 10 in Japan for a couple of seasons. Saints have first dibbs on him coming back to the UK

[Oxbow]

Probably for the best for both him and the club, he sorely needs game time and is behind several players at Saints. He's still relatively young, hopefully he'll come back in a couple of years a better, stronger player.

[Saint]

Agreed - he's lost out a lot both in gametime and seniority due to injuries. Getting some serious game time is likely his only chance to get things back on track, and I don;t see that happening at Saints or anywhere in the Premiership given his injury record

[sockwithaticket]

John Mitchell comes back to Wasps.

Wasps are delighted to announce that John Mitchell, currently part of England Men’s senior backroom staff, will be joining the Men’s team coaching set up.

The former Head Coach of the All Blacks has signed a contract with the Club that will see him link up with the squad this season.

Mitchell, England’s Forwards Coach under Sir Clive Woodward from 1997 to 2000, re-joins Wasps having spent time with the Club as an Assistant Coach during the 1999/2000 season.

The 57-year-old’s impressive résumé also includes being United States Head Coach from 2016 to 2017 and two stints coaching Sale Sharks. Mitchell has been in charge of England’s Defence since September 2018.

Men’s Head Coach Lee Blackett said: “We are thrilled to add John to the coaching group for this season. He brings a wealth of knowledge and will only improve our playing department.

“Once we knew John was available, we prioritised getting him back to Wasps.

“Finding somebody of John’s calibre at both an international and domestic level is rare. He fits the profile we have been looking for, adding to our talented group of coaches.

“John’s primary role will be to lead the attack, but his breadth of top-level experience will see him assist on a number of levels. He understands Wasps having worked here before and his passion for the club and improving our players shone through from the start.

“The support from the board in making this happen demonstrates the ambition of this club.”

Sounds like he's in for a brief stint to maybe give Blackett some back up, a senior head to guide and manage a young DoR finding his feet. It's not very clear whether he'll be combining this with England.

Interesting that he'll be focused on attack given he's just been an international defence coach.

[Raggs]

John Mitchell comes back to Wasps.

Wasps are delighted to announce that John Mitchell, currently part of England Men’s senior backroom staff, will be joining the Men’s team coaching set up.

The former Head Coach of the All Blacks has signed a contract with the Club that will see him link up with the squad this season.

Mitchell, England’s Forwards Coach under Sir Clive Woodward from 1997 to 2000, re-joins Wasps having spent time with the Club as an Assistant Coach during the 1999/2000 season.

The 57-year-old’s impressive résumé also includes being United States Head Coach from 2016 to 2017 and two stints coaching Sale Sharks. Mitchell has been in charge of England’s Defence since September 2018.

Men’s Head Coach Lee Blackett said: “We are thrilled to add John to the coaching group for this season. He brings a wealth of knowledge and will only improve our playing department.

“Once we knew John was available, we prioritised getting him back to Wasps.

“Finding somebody of John’s calibre at both an international and domestic level is rare. He fits the profile we have been looking for, adding to our talented group of coaches.

“John’s primary role will be to lead the attack, but his breadth of top-level experience will see him assist on a number of levels. He understands Wasps having worked here before and his passion for the club and improving our players shone through from the start.

“The support from the board in making this happen demonstrates the ambition of this club.”

Sounds like he's in for a brief stint to maybe give Blackett some back up, a senior head to guide and manage a young DoR finding his feet. It's not very clear whether he'll be combining this with England.

Interesting that he'll be focused on attack given he's just been an international defence coach.

Don't know about brief stint, the rumour is we're losing Gleeson to England. Regardless, looks to be a good acquisition. Definitely wonder if it's in addition to the England stuff.

[sockwithaticket]

John Mitchell comes back to Wasps.

Wasps are delighted to announce that John Mitchell, currently part of England Men’s senior backroom staff, will be joining the Men’s team coaching set up.

The former Head Coach of the All Blacks has signed a contract with the Club that will see him link up with the squad this season.

Mitchell, England’s Forwards Coach under Sir Clive Woodward from 1997 to 2000, re-joins Wasps having spent time with the Club as an Assistant Coach during the 1999/2000 season.

The 57-year-old’s impressive résumé also includes being United States Head Coach from 2016 to 2017 and two stints coaching Sale Sharks. Mitchell has been in charge of England’s Defence since September 2018.

Men’s Head Coach Lee Blackett said: “We are thrilled to add John to the coaching group for this season. He brings a wealth of knowledge and will only improve our playing department.

“Once we knew John was available, we prioritised getting him back to Wasps.

“Finding somebody of John’s calibre at both an international and domestic level is rare. He fits the profile we have been looking for, adding to our talented group of coaches.

“John’s primary role will be to lead the attack, but his breadth of top-level experience will see him assist on a number of levels. He understands Wasps having worked here before and his passion for the club and improving our players shone through from the start.

“The support from the board in making this happen demonstrates the ambition of this club.”

Sounds like he's in for a brief stint to maybe give Blackett some back up, a senior head to guide and manage a young DoR finding his feet. It's not very clear whether he'll be combining this with England.

Interesting that he'll be focused on attack given he's just been an international defence coach.

Don't know about brief stint, the rumour is we're losing Gleeson to England. Regardless, looks to be a good acquisition. Definitely wonder if it's in addition to the England stuff.

It only mentions this season, I don't know if that would've been specified were he sticking around longer.

[Raggs]

John Mitchell comes back to Wasps.



Sounds like he's in for a brief stint to maybe give Blackett some back up, a senior head to guide and manage a young DoR finding his feet. It's not very clear whether he'll be combining this with England.

Interesting that he'll be focused on attack given he's just been an international defence coach.

Don't know about brief stint, the rumour is we're losing Gleeson to England. Regardless, looks to be a good acquisition. Definitely wonder if it's in addition to the England stuff.

It only mentions this season, I don't know if that would've been specified were he sticking around longer.

Perhaps, I read that as meaning it's an immediate signing, rather than him coming in after the world cup or something.

[Raggs]

Chris Jones reporting that he's leaving England. So not a time share.

[JM2K6]

England's turnover of coaches is quite remarkable. Almost as remarkable as the injury count during England camps.

[Raggs]

England's turnover of coaches is quite remarkable. Almost as remarkable as the injury count during England camps.

Definitely a high turnover of coaches, but, we've not done that badly because of it? At least it doesn't feel that way.

[sockwithaticket]

Might we do better without it is the counter question. Not that there's any way to know.

[SaintK]

Might we do better without it is the counter question. Not that there's any way to know.

Proudfoot next then?

[JM2K6]

England's turnover of coaches is quite remarkable. Almost as remarkable as the injury count during England camps.

Definitely a high turnover of coaches, but, we've not done that badly because of it? At least it doesn't feel that way.

We've had some highs and some pretty big lows, some consistency would be nice

[SaintK]

England's turnover of coaches is quite remarkable. Almost as remarkable as the injury count during England camps.

Definitely a high turnover of coaches, but, we've not done that badly because of it? At least it doesn't feel that way.

We've had some highs and some pretty big lows, some consistency would be nice

Saw a mate of of mine yesterday who knows Mitchell well. Sounds like Mitchell had just had enough of Jones's hectoring and agressive (bullying?) management style. Think you can apply that to most of the others that have departed mid contract over the past few years!!!
Oh and Proudfoot is now b ack in S Africa and rumour has it is unlikely to return.

[geordie_6]

If that's true, then the rumours linking Cockhead to an Englanf assistant role are interesting.

Even if he was willing to take on the role, he doesn't strike me as the sort to take that sort of interaction lightly...

[JM2K6]

If that's true, then the rumours linking Cockhead to an Englanf assistant role are interesting.

Even if he was willing to take on the role, he doesn't strike me as the sort to take that sort of interaction lightly...

Honestly could see them working fine together, like Mallinder and West, but it'd likely be the last partnership England has under Eddie...

[sockwithaticket]

Definitely a high turnover of coaches, but, we've not done that badly because of it? At least it doesn't feel that way.

We've had some highs and some pretty big lows, some consistency would be nice

Saw a mate of of mine yesterday who knows Mitchell well. Sounds like Mitchell had just had enough of Jones's hectoring and agressive (bullying?) management style. Think you can apply that to most of the others that have departed mid contract over the past few years!!!
Oh and Proudfoot is now b ack in S Africa and rumour has it is unlikely to return.

And that's coming from a man who has his own rep of being fairly abrasive! Interesting about Proudfoot.


I do wonder what this England team would look like with greater consistency of coaching personnel. Might we have avoided the drastic peaking and troughing?

[SaintK]

We've had some highs and some pretty big lows, some consistency would be nice

Saw a mate of of mine yesterday who knows Mitchell well. Sounds like Mitchell had just had enough of Jones's hectoring and agressive (bullying?) management style. Think you can apply that to most of the others that have departed mid contract over the past few years!!!
Oh and Proudfoot is now b ack in S Africa and rumour has it is unlikely to return.

And that's coming from a man who has his own rep of being fairly abrasive! Interesting about Proudfoot.


I do wonder what this England team would look like with greater consistency of coaching personnel. Might we have avoided the drastic peaking and troughing?

The same mate has been in and out of the England camp quite regularly before and since Jones took over. Says Jones is warm and welcoming to to visitors and guests and to most of the players but is a complete and utter bastard to work for.

[SaintK]

So the latest chapter in the Eddie Jones book of man management. Joe Lewis the head analyst has left the RFU citing "personal reasons"
Which means that Jones is just about the last man standing...............just 2 years out from the next RWC!!!!
On the bright side Jones has had a face to face meeting with Richard Cockerill to dfiscuss a possible role in the coaching set up.

[Tichtheid]

So the latest chapter in the Eddie Jones book of man management. Joe Lewis the head analyst has left the RFU citing "personal reasons"
Which means that Jones is just about the last man standing...............just 2 years out from the next RWC!!!!
On the bright side Jones has had a face to face meeting with Richard Cockerill to dfiscuss a possible role in the coaching set up.

Did you read John Barclay's article on Cockers leaving Edinburgh?

[SaintK]

So the latest chapter in the Eddie Jones book of man management. Joe Lewis the head analyst has left the RFU citing "personal reasons"
Which means that Jones is just about the last man standing...............just 2 years out from the next RWC!!!!
On the bright side Jones has had a face to face meeting with Richard Cockerill to dfiscuss a possible role in the coaching set up.

Did you read John Barclay's article on Cockers leaving Edinburgh?

I did and was being somewhat ironic!!

[Tichtheid]

So the latest chapter in the Eddie Jones book of man management. Joe Lewis the head analyst has left the RFU citing "personal reasons"
Which means that Jones is just about the last man standing...............just 2 years out from the next RWC!!!!
On the bright side Jones has had a face to face meeting with Richard Cockerill to dfiscuss a possible role in the coaching set up.

Did you read John Barclay's article on Cockers leaving Edinburgh?

I did and was being somewhat ironic!!

Aye, you'd think there was only room enough for the one hectoring bully in the camp.

[sockwithaticket]

Ah bugger. I gather Edinburgh have been fairly stale under him he last couple fo seasons after an initial bounce, so I'm not sure Cockerill necessarily warrants a shot at the big time. That said we might rapidly be approaching the point where we have to take whoever wants the job - I doubt the sheer number of coaches who flee the England set up over the last few years has escaped the notice of serious applicants.

Unless we end up going on an amazing two year run with some really enjoyable performances, in which case I reserve the right to take this back, I'm looking forward to the end of the Jones era.

[Tichtheid]

Ah bugger. I gather Edinburgh have been fairly stale under him he last couple fo seasons after an initial bounce, so I'm not sure Cockerill necessarily warrants a shot at the big time. That said we might rapidly be approaching the point where we have to take whoever wants the job - I doubt the sheer number of coaches who flee the England set up over the last few years has escaped the notice of serious applicants.

Unless we end up going on an amazing two year run with some really enjoyable performances, in which case I reserve the right to take this back, I'm looking forward to the end of the Jones era.

Not so much stale as scared shitless to play what was in front of them because the players were given a huge bollocking and humiliated in front of their peers on the Monday if they tried something and it didn't come off.
Everything was called from the coaches box.

It was a toxic culture for over two years.

[sockwithaticket]

Ah bugger. I gather Edinburgh have been fairly stale under him he last couple fo seasons after an initial bounce, so I'm not sure Cockerill necessarily warrants a shot at the big time. That said we might rapidly be approaching the point where we have to take whoever wants the job - I doubt the sheer number of coaches who flee the England set up over the last few years has escaped the notice of serious applicants.

Unless we end up going on an amazing two year run with some really enjoyable performances, in which case I reserve the right to take this back, I'm looking forward to the end of the Jones era.

Not so much stale as scared shitless to play what was in front of them because the players were given a huge bollocking and humiliated in front of their peers on the Monday if they tried something and it didn't come off.
Everything was called from the coaches box.

It was a toxic culture for over two years.

Ah right. Well, great, what this England team really needs is to play even less rugby...

[Kawazaki]

Anyone get the feeling that Jones knows exactly who said what when they did his recent clandestine performance review and is making sure any dissenters are sacked?

I really hate Eddiot Jones for just about everything he stands for.

[inactionman]

Any Wasps fans got any insight on Martin Gleeson?

I know him from RL, had no idea he was coaching in Union prior to hearing he's been appointed England attack coach.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58115235

Seems almost a straight swap -noting different specialisms - with John Mitchell.

[sockwithaticket]

Any Wasps fans got any insight on Martin Gleeson?

I know him from RL, had no idea he was coaching in Union prior to hearing he's been appointed England attack coach.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58115235

Seems almost a straight swap -noting different specialisms - with John Mitchell.

Not really I'm afraid. He joined us for the 19/20 season and we obviously had a pretty glorious run in then, but given how we performed for the first half of that season I' not sure how much you can credit him with that vs. the emergence of Umaga and having all our key players available in a compressed time frame. Certainly we've been nothing to shout about this season shorn of some of those key individuals at various points and with Umaga not in such sparkling form a lot of the time.

[Raggs]

Our attack has been ambitious, heads up and expecting the forwards to be able to distribute and offload.

Ok the players haven't always been capable or been in form, but the attack itself is positive and looks to break down defences through play rather than individual brilliance.

If the seemingly Eddie led fast play at the end of the six nations is the direction we want to go in them Gleeson could be a good fit. We certainly have the players to make it work.

[Madness]

Lets hope for some positives to come out of the Lions tour for England and not the dumb as fuck idea of having Lawes at 6 in international rugby. However whats the bet we still go into the autumn internationals with a backline of Youngs, Ford, Watson, Farrell, Slade, May & Daly. Jones has said that the pace of the game is going to increase so lets go for it. Fit and in form lets go for:

Genge
George
Sinks
Itoje
Launchbury
Willis
Curry
Dombrandt
Robson
Smith
Watson
Tuilagi
Slade
Nowell
Malins

Mako, LCD, Stuart, Lawes, Billy, Randall, Ford, Daly

[ASMO]

Watching the Lions was like watching England, utterly depressing, i fear more of the same shit will be served up in the AI's and 6N.

[Paddington Bear]

In Eddie’s mind there is one AI - the Boks game. Hopefully there’ll be some realisation that we need to unpick their defence and won’t beat them by boshing it, but we’ll see

[sockwithaticket]

Think we can put to bed any notion that playing in the Championship leaves you ready for international rugby. Of the Saracens players only Itoje looked any good against serious opposition.

England players who come away from the tour as net positives?
Itoje - test performances speak for themselves
Lawes - he's not a back row, but he toiled hard and made some important carries at times.
LCD - best hooker on tour, which may sound a bit like damning with faint praise, but it is what it is.
Watson - limited opportunities to do anything, but when they arose he made ground.

[sockwithaticket]

In Eddie’s mind there is one AI - the Boks game. Hopefully there’ll be some realisation that we need to unpick their defence and won’t beat them by boshing it, but we’ll see

Yeah I won't be holding my breath, only the ABs and Aussies seem to have worked out that you can't out-Bok South Africa.

[Raggs]

We weren't boring towards the end of the 6N. We didn't do well, but we weren't playing a boring game.

[Kawazaki]

Think we can put to bed any notion that playing in the Championship leaves you ready for international rugby. Of the Saracens players only Itoje looked any good against serious opposition.

England players who come away from the tour as net positives?
Itoje - test performances speak for themselves
Lawes - he's not a back row, but he toiled hard and made some important carries at times.
LCD - best hooker on tour, which may sound a bit like damning with faint praise, but it is what it is.
Watson - limited opportunities to do anything, but when they arose he made ground.

Yeah, Itoje is a real exception to the rule

And of course, players like Hogg, Curry and Faletau really prove that playing Premiership rugby really prepares you for test rugby.

Jesus wept.


P.s I've no idea what Jamie George did to get dropped.

[sockwithaticket]

Think we can put to bed any notion that playing in the Championship leaves you ready for international rugby. Of the Saracens players only Itoje looked any good against serious opposition.

England players who come away from the tour as net positives?
Itoje - test performances speak for themselves
Lawes - he's not a back row, but he toiled hard and made some important carries at times.
LCD - best hooker on tour, which may sound a bit like damning with faint praise, but it is what it is.
Watson - limited opportunities to do anything, but when they arose he made ground.

Yeah, Itoje is a real exception to the rule

And of course, players like Hogg, Curry and Faletau really prove that playing Premiership rugby really prepares you for test rugby.

Jesus wept.


P.s I've no idea what Jamie George did to get dropped.

That's not an argument I was making. Saying the Championship isn't adequate preparation isn't the same as saying the Premiership is. There are no guarantees with player form, but playing in top flight competition certainly provides the best chance for players to be in the requisite form because they're playing against higher quality opposition week in week out. Faletau should never have been selected for the tour based on his 6 Nations and domestic form. I don't think Hogg was that bad, he wasn't great, but he deserved to be there and once there the choices were him an injured/out of form Williams or Daly...

George was demonstrably worse than LCD in the 6 Nations and I can't even remember his tour performances despite having watched every game.

[Kawazaki]

Think we can put to bed any notion that playing in the Championship leaves you ready for international rugby. Of the Saracens players only Itoje looked any good against serious opposition.

England players who come away from the tour as net positives?
Itoje - test performances speak for themselves
Lawes - he's not a back row, but he toiled hard and made some important carries at times.
LCD - best hooker on tour, which may sound a bit like damning with faint praise, but it is what it is.
Watson - limited opportunities to do anything, but when they arose he made ground.

Yeah, Itoje is a real exception to the rule

And of course, players like Hogg, Curry and Faletau really prove that playing Premiership rugby really prepares you for test rugby.

Jesus wept.


P.s I've no idea what Jamie George did to get dropped.

That's not an argument I was making. Saying the Championship isn't adequate preparation isn't the same as saying the Premiership is. There are no guarantees with player form, but playing in top flight competition certainly provides the best chance for players to be in the requisite form because they're playing against higher quality opposition week in week out. Faletau should never have been selected for the tour based on his 6 Nations and domestic form. I don't think Hogg was that bad, he wasn't great, but he deserved to be there and once there the choices were him an injured/out of form Williams or Daly...

George was demonstrably worse than LCD in the 6 Nations and I can't even remember his tour performances despite having watched every game.

George was better than Owens.

Itoje was, by a distance, the best Lions player and probably the best player of the whole series even if you include South Africans. That's a hell of an outlier. And being a Championship player, he'd have missed the tour if Gatland followed your logic.