The Springboks vs British & Irish Lions 2nd Test Thread

[Paddington Bear]

Gatland influenced the tmo in the run up to the first test.

'The TMO should be from a neutral country' is both true and very different to an hour long monologue, this isn't complicated.

I agree, but World Rugby (not SARU) appointed Jonker and Gatland used it to put massive pressure on him.

I'm not blaming the SARU, WR should have shipped out a larger team of officials than they did.
As mentioned it also put Jonker in the nasty spot of needing to appear fair, all of us who've ever reffed our own team will understand that pressure. Gatland pointed this out, and realistically they had time to ship in another official.

[Kawazaki]

Sure someone has mentioned it above, but in literally every game of rugby ever you could put together a video of calls that didn't go your way. The shame is that if this does actually appear to influence a ref in the final two games everyone will start doing similar. Pathetic stuff that does the game no credit at all.

Gatland influenced the tmo in the run up to the first test.

'The TMO should be from a neutral country' is both true and very different to an hour long monologue, this isn't complicated.

The TMO doesn't even need to be in the same country as the match either. There's really no excuse.

[SaintK]

Can’t believe that a majority of SA posters seem to be now taking it as read that everything the ‘large verbal assaulter of refs’ insinuated is true. It was just how he said it that was a ‘tad’ strong. Every other rugby playing nations news considers it a national embarrassment.

More wagons please?

Can you imagine the howls of rage and indignation if Jones, Gatland or Hansen or any other tier 1 nation head coach had done the same thing when playing SA?

[JM2K6]

Can’t believe that a majority of SA posters seem to be now taking it as read that everything the ‘large verbal assaulter of refs’ insinuated is true. It was just how he said it that was a ‘tad’ strong. Every other rugby playing nations news considers it a national embarrassment.

More wagons please?

Can you imagine the howls of rage and indignation if Jones, Gatland or Hansen or any other tier 1 nation head coach had done the same thing when playing SA?

It's like people are forgetting just how much criticism Eddie Jones and Warren Gatland get when they do 10% of this sort of thing. Go back to the last Lions tour and Gatland's little comments were pissing Lions fans off.Something of this scale is insane.

[Blake]

Gatland influenced the tmo in the run up to the first test.

'The TMO should be from a neutral country' is both true and very different to an hour long monologue, this isn't complicated.

The TMO doesn't even need to be in the same country as the match either. There's really no excuse.

I think you underestimate the complexity of broadcasting and the time delays involved, as well as how the TMO is getting the feed that is used for decision making.
Maybe get some of that detail before making a comment?

[ScarfaceClaw]

Can’t believe that a majority of SA posters seem to be now taking it as read that everything the ‘large verbal assaulter of refs’ insinuated is true. It was just how he said it that was a ‘tad’ strong. Every other rugby playing nations news considers it a national embarrassment.

More wagons please?

Can you imagine the howls of rage and indignation if Jones, Gatland or Hansen or any other tier 1 nation head coach had done the same thing when playing SA?

Sir Clive Woodworm was rightly mocked for his PowerPoint presentations in NZ in 2005. Rassie is completely in the wrong with how he has delivered this and deservedly needs to be ridiculed for it. It’s deeply disappointing to see this sort of thing being done.

[handyman]

'The TMO should be from a neutral country' is both true and very different to an hour long monologue, this isn't complicated.

I agree, but World Rugby (not SARU) appointed Jonker and Gatland used it to put massive pressure on him.

I'm not blaming the SARU, WR should have shipped out a larger team of officials than they did.
As mentioned it also put Jonker in the nasty spot of needing to appear fair, all of us who've ever reffed our own team will understand that pressure. Gatland pointed this out, and realistically they had time to ship in another official.

That would have been the right call, but World Rugby wasn't strong enough to do it after Gatland spoke.

[assfly]

Sir Clive Woodworm was rightly mocked for his PowerPoint presentations in NZ in 2005. Rassie is completely in the wrong with how he has delivered this and deservedly needs to be ridiculed for it. It’s deeply disappointing to see this sort of thing being done.

But the points he raises in the video are correct and require a response from World Rugby.

[Kawazaki]

'The TMO should be from a neutral country' is both true and very different to an hour long monologue, this isn't complicated.

The TMO doesn't even need to be in the same country as the match either. There's really no excuse.

I think you underestimate the complexity of broadcasting and the time delays involved, as well as how the TMO is getting the feed that is used for decision making.
Maybe get some of that detail before making a comment?

You need to look up what 'raw feed' is. And it isn't that shit you call sausage for your BBQ.

[Margin__Walker]

Hey Handyman. Still waiting for some evidence of my baggage with everything South African. Any progress on that yet?

Don't expect much from him. Probably the worst Saffer poster out there, and that says a lot

Can't say I've really noticed him in a negative way before. Probably being overly sensitive, but I've never said a bad word about SA on here or PR, so I'm genuinely confused at being labelled in that way.

It's certainly an interesting build up to a test match this week. Hopefully we get a decent game to wash away all this nonsense.

[SaintK]

'The TMO should be from a neutral country' is both true and very different to an hour long monologue, this isn't complicated.

The TMO doesn't even need to be in the same country as the match either. There's really no excuse.

I think you underestimate the complexity of broadcasting and the time delays involved, as well as how the TMO is getting the feed that is used for decision making.
Maybe get some of that detail before making a comment?

They manage to do it remotely in Premier league soccer albeit within the same country.
You appear to be an expert, perhaps you could explain the technical issues involved.

[PCPhil]

Sir Clive Woodworm was rightly mocked for his PowerPoint presentations in NZ in 2005. Rassie is completely in the wrong with how he has delivered this and deservedly needs to be ridiculed for it. It’s deeply disappointing to see this sort of thing being done.

But the points he raises in the video are correct and require a response from World Rugby.

Point 1 - nope. Anyone can do selective editing
Point 2 - absolutely agree

[JM2K6]

Sir Clive Woodworm was rightly mocked for his PowerPoint presentations in NZ in 2005. Rassie is completely in the wrong with how he has delivered this and deservedly needs to be ridiculed for it. It’s deeply disappointing to see this sort of thing being done.

But the points he raises in the video are correct and require a response from World Rugby.

Jesus Christ, no. I can guarantee you that every single match has mistakes and missed offences by the bucketload. That's the sport, unfortunately. WR will not respond publicly and they absofuckinglutely should not be expected to give a detailed response every time some insane poor loser has a meltdown and spends an hour complaining about marginal decisions.

[assfly]

Jesus Christ, no. I can guarantee you that every single match has mistakes and missed offences by the bucketload. That's the sport, unfortunately. WR will not respond publicly and they absofuckinglutely should not be expected to give a detailed response every time some insane poor loser has a meltdown and spends an hour complaining about marginal decisions.

They weren't marginal decisions.

[handyman]

Hey Handyman. Still waiting for some evidence of my baggage with everything South African. Any progress on that yet?

Don't expect much from him. Probably the worst Saffer poster out there, and that says a lot

Can't say I've really noticed him in a negative way before. Probably being overly sensitive, but I've never said a bad word about SA on here or PR, so I'm genuinely confused at being labelled in that way.

It's certainly an interesting build up to a test match this week. Hopefully we get a decent game to wash away all this nonsense.

I might have mixed you up with someone else, if so, apologies

[PCPhil]

Jesus Christ, no. I can guarantee you that every single match has mistakes and missed offences by the bucketload. That's the sport, unfortunately. WR will not respond publicly and they absofuckinglutely should not be expected to give a detailed response every time some insane poor loser has a meltdown and spends an hour complaining about marginal decisions.

They weren't marginal decisions.

Bless

[sorCrer]

Sir Clive Woodworm was rightly mocked for his PowerPoint presentations in NZ in 2005. Rassie is completely in the wrong with how he has delivered this and deservedly needs to be ridiculed for it. It’s deeply disappointing to see this sort of thing being done.

But the points he raises in the video are correct and require a response from World Rugby.

Jesus Christ, no. I can guarantee you that every single match has mistakes and missed offences by the bucketload. That's the sport, unfortunately. WR will not respond publicly and they absofuckinglutely should not be expected to give a detailed response every time some insane poor loser has a meltdown and spends an hour complaining about marginal decisions.

My understanding is that he first approached WR for clarity who told him they weren't prepared to discuss it at the time?

[tc27]

I think the SA posters need to step back and consider what they are trying to defend here - the best possible spin you can put on Rassie's actions is that its an utterly cynical move that's going to sent a awful precedent but the most likely on is he's having some kind of publically played out breakdown about loosing last week.

[handyman]

I think all that could have been said about the Rassie saga have been said. The powers that be will decide his fate.

The world can't wait for this match and I hope it lives up to expectations.

[Kawazaki]

Jesus Christ, no. I can guarantee you that every single match has mistakes and missed offences by the bucketload. That's the sport, unfortunately. WR will not respond publicly and they absofuckinglutely should not be expected to give a detailed response every time some insane poor loser has a meltdown and spends an hour complaining about marginal decisions.

They weren't marginal decisions.

Bless

Worth mentioning the 2007 RWC final here.

[handyman]

I think the SA posters need to step back and consider what they are trying to defend here - the best possible spin you can put on Rassie's actions is that its an utterly cynical move that's going to sent a awful precedent but the most likely on is he's having some kind of publically played out breakdown about loosing last week.

It is what it is. Does it help going around in circles for pages upon pages, I don't think so? It's getting tiresome.

[Blake]

They manage to do it remotely in Premier league soccer albeit within the same country.
You appear to be an expert, perhaps you could explain the technical issues involved.

I've watched a couple of matches in pubs or friends' houses around stadiums when I couldn't get tickets, but still wanted to be part of the pre-match and post-match vibes.
There was a decent 10-15 second delay between the broadcast and the live action.

I don't know the all the technicalities involved myself, but I know the on-site TMO gets his feed from the production truck itself before getting broadcast.
If technology has improved then so be it, but having a 10-15s delay each time the TMO or ref needs a new angle or are trying to have a conversation about the ruling seems incredibly painful way to do it.

[Kawazaki]

I think the SA posters need to step back and consider what they are trying to defend here - the best possible spin you can put on Rassie's actions is that its an utterly cynical move that's going to sent a awful precedent but the most likely on is he's having some kind of publically played out breakdown about loosing last week.

You've got those reasons the wrong way around.

[average joe]

Ja, the TMO should have been replaced. The problem is not that Gatland raised it, it's how he raised it. I'm sure there's protocols and official channels to raise concerns about officials. Why blurt it out to the media instead? Because he wanted to apply pressure and effect the outcome of the match? Because he wanted to paint the Springbok camp as the villains with their hometown refs? Why did he make a big hoohaa about it in the media and why is it OK for only him to do it?

[Margin__Walker]

Don't expect much from him. Probably the worst Saffer poster out there, and that says a lot

Can't say I've really noticed him in a negative way before. Probably being overly sensitive, but I've never said a bad word about SA on here or PR, so I'm genuinely confused at being labelled in that way.

It's certainly an interesting build up to a test match this week. Hopefully we get a decent game to wash away all this nonsense.

I might have mixed you up with someone else, if so, apologies

No worries mate. Apologies, if I've been a dick about any of this.

Looking forward to some actual rugby now and will probably give this subject a wide berth until after the game.

[Sards]

Can't say I've really noticed him in a negative way before. Probably being overly sensitive, but I've never said a bad word about SA on here or PR, so I'm genuinely confused at being labelled in that way.

It's certainly an interesting build up to a test match this week. Hopefully we get a decent game to wash away all this nonsense.

I might have mixed you up with someone else, if so, apologies

No worries mate. Apologies, if I've been a dick about any of this.

Looking forward to some actual rugby now and will probably give this subject a wide berth until after the game.

Hear hear

[handyman]

Can't say I've really noticed him in a negative way before. Probably being overly sensitive, but I've never said a bad word about SA on here or PR, so I'm genuinely confused at being labelled in that way.

It's certainly an interesting build up to a test match this week. Hopefully we get a decent game to wash away all this nonsense.

I might have mixed you up with someone else, if so, apologies

No worries mate. Apologies, if I've been a dick about any of this.

Looking forward to some actual rugby now and will probably give this subject a wide berth until after the game.

All good. Yeah, we've got no control about what the coaches and dor's do or say, what we can do is enjoy the build up and then hopefully a cracker of a match.

[Blake]

I think the SA posters need to step back and consider what they are trying to defend here - the best possible spin you can put on Rassie's actions is that its an utterly cynical move that's going to sent a awful precedent but the most likely on is he's having some kind of publically played out breakdown about loosing last week.

If a new set of officials were going to be in charge for the second test, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Then whatever happened in the first test is water under the bridge and Rassie and Nienaber should just move onto the next match. Nothing about the first test's decisions have any baring on the second test.

But that's not the case in this series. It's the exact set of officials, just shuffled around, so it is important for the Bok team to understand the rulings of the first test and adapt their tactics.
The fact that World Rugby is so slow to release the referee report of the match is problematic, in this unique edge case, and them being so dismissive of Rassie's formal request is what has led to him airing his grievances out in public.

There is an official process, it was followed, but the machinery at WR wasn't able to provide the report as required in the condensed timeframe; which puts the Boks in a bit of a bind because they need clarity on a couple of the calls that went against them or were ignored or were dismissed when Kolisi raised them in the match.

[SaintK]

Ja, the TMO should have been replaced. The problem is not that Gatland raised it, it's how he raised it. I'm sure there's protocols and official channels to raise concerns about officials. Why blurt it out to the media instead? Because he wanted to apply pressure and effect the outcome of the match? Because he wanted to paint the Springbok camp as the villains with their hometown refs? Why did he make a big hoohaa about it in the media and why is it OK for only him to do it?

Ahh I see! Erasmus's utter stupidity is all Gatlands's fault....got it.

[Blake]

The TMO doesn't even need to be in the same country as the match either. There's really no excuse.

I think you underestimate the complexity of broadcasting and the time delays involved, as well as how the TMO is getting the feed that is used for decision making.
Maybe get some of that detail before making a comment?

You need to look up what 'raw feed' is. And it isn't that shit you call sausage for your BBQ.

If Raw Feed can be beamed and multiple angles can be controlled remotely over international distances in real time, then I stand corrected and apologise unreservedly.

[Sards]

“Rugby Australia has noted with dismay and concern the recent public commentary by South African Director of Rugby Rassie Erasmus, regarding Australian referee Nic Berry and other match officials,” the statement read.

“There is no place for abuse of match officials in Australian Rugby, with Rugby Australia committed to promoting a fair, safe and inclusive Rugby experience for all participants, officials and fans.”

RA CEO Andy Marinos confirmed they have taken the issue up with World Rugby as they continue to show support for Berry.

“Match officials form the very fabric of our game – simply, the game would not exist without them. As a highly regarded and respected international referee appointed by World Rugby, the attack on Nic’s integrity, character and reputation is unacceptable,” Marinos said.

“We have been in contact with World Rugby, under whose auspices this Test Series sit, and understand that they are actively reviewing this matter as some facts presented were not accurate.

“It is important to ensure public attacks of this nature are not tolerated. We will continue to provide support to Nic at this time, as both his physical and mental wellbeing remains a priority for us.”

Oops.....now the Aussies are pissed off

[average joe]

Ja, the TMO should have been replaced. The problem is not that Gatland raised it, it's how he raised it. I'm sure there's protocols and official channels to raise concerns about officials. Why blurt it out to the media instead? Because he wanted to apply pressure and effect the outcome of the match? Because he wanted to paint the Springbok camp as the villains with their hometown refs? Why did he make a big hoohaa about it in the media and why is it OK for only him to do it?

Ahh I see! Erasmus's utter stupidity is all Gatlands's fault....got it.

When I pronounce Gatlands name I do it in Afrikaans.

[Slick]

“Rugby Australia has noted with dismay and concern the recent public commentary by South African Director of Rugby Rassie Erasmus, regarding Australian referee Nic Berry and other match officials,” the statement read.

“There is no place for abuse of match officials in Australian Rugby, with Rugby Australia committed to promoting a fair, safe and inclusive Rugby experience for all participants, officials and fans.”

RA CEO Andy Marinos confirmed they have taken the issue up with World Rugby as they continue to show support for Berry.

“Match officials form the very fabric of our game – simply, the game would not exist without them. As a highly regarded and respected international referee appointed by World Rugby, the attack on Nic’s integrity, character and reputation is unacceptable,” Marinos said.

“We have been in contact with World Rugby, under whose auspices this Test Series sit, and understand that they are actively reviewing this matter as some facts presented were not accurate.

“It is important to ensure public attacks of this nature are not tolerated. We will continue to provide support to Nic at this time, as both his physical and mental wellbeing remains a priority for us.”

Oops.....now the Aussies are pissed off

And that is what pisses me off the most, the fact that this wasn't a general winge but a sustained attack on the integrity of an individual.

That's the last on this from me

[assfly]

Ahh I see! Erasmus's utter stupidity is all Gatlands's fault....got it.

He might be a lot of things, but he's not stupid.

[Biffer]

Jesus Christ, no. I can guarantee you that every single match has mistakes and missed offences by the bucketload. That's the sport, unfortunately. WR will not respond publicly and they absofuckinglutely should not be expected to give a detailed response every time some insane poor loser has a meltdown and spends an hour complaining about marginal decisions.

They weren't marginal decisions.

What, the whole hour wasn't marginal decisions? Nothing in the hour was marginal at all? Not even the squint lineouts?

[Raggs]

Jesus Christ, no. I can guarantee you that every single match has mistakes and missed offences by the bucketload. That's the sport, unfortunately. WR will not respond publicly and they absofuckinglutely should not be expected to give a detailed response every time some insane poor loser has a meltdown and spends an hour complaining about marginal decisions.

They weren't marginal decisions.

What, the whole hour wasn't marginal decisions? Nothing in the hour was marginal at all? Not even the squint lineouts?

Yeah, that lineout complaint at the end

Some were obviously incorrect, some were absolutely debateable due to numerous potential issues. I'm happy to admit that the Itoje turnover on the line was completely illegal, not supporting weight, not lifting the ball, Siya wasn't holding on either. However, I'm equally happy to go back to the first offence at that breakdown, which was one of the boks just diving in off his feet, so the penalty to Lions was the right call.

[Paddington Bear]

'The TMO should be from a neutral country' is both true and very different to an hour long monologue, this isn't complicated.

The TMO doesn't even need to be in the same country as the match either. There's really no excuse.

I think you underestimate the complexity of broadcasting and the time delays involved, as well as how the TMO is getting the feed that is used for decision making.
Maybe get some of that detail before making a comment?

WR should have sent a team of 5/6 officials who could all run the game if necessary, and one should be TMO. Not beyond the wit of man.

As ever, the test for Rassie's defenders should be 'how would I react if England had done this?'. I suspect not in the manner they are.

[Kawazaki]

If a new set of officials were going to be in charge for the second test, I'd be inclined to agree with you. Then whatever happened in the first test is water under the bridge and Rassie and Nienaber should just move onto the next match. Nothing about the first test's decisions have any baring on the second test.

But that's not the case in this series. It's the exact set of officials, just shuffled around, so it is important for the Bok team to understand the rulings of the first test and adapt their tactics.
The fact that World Rugby is so slow to release the referee report of the match is problematic, in this unique edge case, and them being so dismissive of Rassie's formal request is what has led to him airing his grievances out in public.

There is an official process, it was followed, but the machinery at WR wasn't able to provide the report as required in the condensed timeframe; which puts the Boks in a bit of a bind because they need clarity on a couple of the calls that went against them or were ignored or were dismissed when Kolisi raised them in the match.

That is all total and utter bollocks.

You might have a point if Erasmus had said in a press conference that he was unhappy with some of the calls so he's keen to communicate and learn from the team of officials as they're going to be the same for all three tests. But he didn't do that. He made an hour long video implying they were either bent, incompetent, arrogant, stupid and/or all of the above.

He's an idiot.

[Blake]

That is all total and utter bollocks.

You might have a point if Erasmus had said in a press conference that he was unhappy with some of the calls so he's keen to communicate and learn from the team of officials as they're going to be the same for all three tests. But he didn't do that. He made an hour long video implying they were either bent, incompetent, arrogant, stupid and/or all of the above.

He's an idiot.

He did say that in the post match press conference.
He also posted this right after the test:



Then he submitted the formal request to World Rugby for the Referee report on Sunday.
They blew him off, and that's when the circus started.

I only became aware of this sequence of events after watching the video he uploaded.
Before watching it, it thought it was just a tactic to divert media attention from the team.
I don't think that anymore. I honestly think they just want to prepare for the second test as best they can, and want to understand the rulings that went against them so they can adjust.
If they can't do it via the proper channels and the issues they raised with the officials before the match (as is the norm) were ignored on the field, what other options do they have?

[Blake]

WR should have sent a team of 5/6 officials who could all run the game if necessary, and one should be TMO. Not beyond the wit of man.

As ever, the test for Rassie's defenders should be 'how would I react if England had done this?'. I suspect not in the manner they are.

Agree 100%. There were a host of organisation blunders for this tour.
What would have happened if any of the officals actually got covid?
It was also a mistake to move the teams around between Johannesburg, Pretoria and Cape Town in retrospect.
Should have selected a single base of operations for both teams from the start IMO.

It's been a difficult tour for all involved. I was really looking forward to it but, like the Olympics, it is a very challenging time to try and host an event like this in times like these.

Pity we are going to have to wait 12 more years for another attempt.