The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[westport]

From TOL

"EDINBURGH RUGBY’s new home bound on the back pitches at Murrayfield will be called ‘The DAM Health Stadium’ for the next-five years as part of a seven-figure agreement announced this afternoon."

Excellent news.

Here is the whole thing

https://www.edinburghrugby.org/the-club ... 60aI7qZGPY

[Biffer]

Any Dam questions?

Yeah, Where's the fucking toilets.

[Slick]

From TOL

"EDINBURGH RUGBY’s new home bound on the back pitches at Murrayfield will be called ‘The DAM Health Stadium’ for the next-five years as part of a seven-figure agreement announced this afternoon."

Excellent news.

Here is the whole thing

https://www.edinburghrugby.org/the-club ... 60aI7qZGPY

Ermm, is this not one of those companies that has become mega rich due to the largess of the Tory government?

[Yr Alban]

I was surprised at the last Edinburgh derby footie match I went to that there were groups of young lads on both sides waving their flags and singing their songs, hadn't seen that 20 years ago when I went to my last one. One of the older guys I was sat near said it was a thing about 40 years ago, then died out, and most of the supporters were horrified it had come back.

I've never come across it as a rugger thing and it certainly didn't spring to mind when I saw the strip!

Hearts have always had a small hard core of total rockets who get off on behaving like the worst kind of ‘Rangers’ fans. The vast majority of the supporters detest this and wish they would feck off permanently. This results in a number of Union flags, especially v Hibs and Celtic, and some questionable songs. I’m not sure it ever disappeared entirely - I know that Hello Hello was a frequent song when I started going to games in the early 90s (it doesn’t matter if you claim you’re singing ‘alternative’ lyrics, it’s the same song) but there was a great deal less attention paid to it back then. The sectarian angle has been played up by the media now again, because although it is on nowhere near the scale of Glasgow, nobody wants to upset the clubs there and Hearts are a convenient soft target.

Other than that, it’s really not a major issue in the East. Rugby has a very different crowd, and I very much doubt anyone gives a toss what colour the Embra shirts are.

[robmatic]

From TOL

"EDINBURGH RUGBY’s new home bound on the back pitches at Murrayfield will be called ‘The DAM Health Stadium’ for the next-five years as part of a seven-figure agreement announced this afternoon."

Excellent news.

Here is the whole thing

https://www.edinburghrugby.org/the-club ... 60aI7qZGPY

Ermm, is this not one of those companies that has become mega rich due to the largess of the Tory government?

At least some of their ill-gotten gains are finding their way to a worthy home.

[Jock42]

15. Henry Immelman *

14. Darcy Graham (39)
13. Mark Bennett (54)
12. Cammy Hutchison (2)
11. Damien Hoyland (85)

10. Blair Kinghorn (102)
9. Ben Vellacott*

1. Pierre Schoeman (65)
2. Stuart McInally (153)
3. Lee Roy Atalifo (10)
4. Marshall Sykes (8)
5. Grant Gilchrist (159) CAPTAIN
6. Jamie Ritchie (77)
7. Luke Crosbie (58)
8. Viliame Mata (89)

Replacements: 16. Dave Cherry (36) 17. Boan Venter (8) 18. WP Nel (156) 19. Jamie Hodgson (23) 20. Connor Boyle (7) 21. Henry Pyrgos (53) 22. Jaco van der Walt (71) 23. James Lang*


Looking forward to this. Is Kinghorn 1st choice 10?

[KingBlairhorn]

Is Kinghorn 1st choice 10?

Bizarre if he is IMO. He's still relatively young at 24, but the time for a switch was surely some point over the last few years as he was developing, not now when he is an established international level player and must be close to being an Edinburgh centurion - all at fullback or wing.

He's had a tough few years relatively speaking, but given the gameplan at Edinburgh effectively didn't allow for his greatest attributes. I also think he has solved some of his biggest issues from when he broke through at Edinburgh, specifically his tendency to lose concentration and his somewhat poor positioning.

[Slick]

Is Kinghorn 1st choice 10?

Bizarre if he is IMO. He's still relatively young at 24, but the time for a switch was surely some point over the last few years as he was developing, not now when he is an established international level player and must be close to being an Edinburgh centurion - all at fullback or wing.

He's had a tough few years relatively speaking, but given the gameplan at Edinburgh effectively didn't allow for his greatest attributes. I also think he has solved some of his biggest issues from when he broke through at Edinburgh, specifically his tendency to lose concentration and his somewhat poor positioning.

Well, I’ve been saying for a few seasons that Edinburgh desperately need a 10 and Jaco isn’t up to it. Doesn’t look good.

I’m still pissed of Jaco was given a cap

[I like neeps]

Is Kinghorn 1st choice 10?

Bizarre if he is IMO. He's still relatively young at 24, but the time for a switch was surely some point over the last few years as he was developing, not now when he is an established international level player and must be close to being an Edinburgh centurion - all at fullback or wing.

He's had a tough few years relatively speaking, but given the gameplan at Edinburgh effectively didn't allow for his greatest attributes. I also think he has solved some of his biggest issues from when he broke through at Edinburgh, specifically his tendency to lose concentration and his somewhat poor positioning.

Well, I’ve been saying for a few seasons that Edinburgh desperately need a 10 and Jaco isn’t up to it. Doesn’t look good.

I’m still pissed of Jaco was given a cap

Agree entirely. I can accept project players but not guys like Jaco who were capped purely as a break glass for emergency situation. Especially as when there was an emergency with Russell, Hastings, Weir all out they played Hogg at 10.

Kinghorn has been a huge disappointment imo. 5 years ago looked like he'd be world beating but he's actually just not very good.

[Tichtheid]

Bizarre if he is IMO. He's still relatively young at 24, but the time for a switch was surely some point over the last few years as he was developing, not now when he is an established international level player and must be close to being an Edinburgh centurion - all at fullback or wing.

He's had a tough few years relatively speaking, but given the gameplan at Edinburgh effectively didn't allow for his greatest attributes. I also think he has solved some of his biggest issues from when he broke through at Edinburgh, specifically his tendency to lose concentration and his somewhat poor positioning.

Well, I’ve been saying for a few seasons that Edinburgh desperately need a 10 and Jaco isn’t up to it. Doesn’t look good.

I’m still pissed of Jaco was given a cap

Agree entirely. I can accept project players but not guys like Jaco who were capped purely as a break glass for emergency situation. Especially as when there was an emergency with Russell, Hastings, Weir all out they played Hogg at 10.

Kinghorn has been a huge disappointment imo. 5 years ago looked like he'd be world beating but he's actually just not very good.

I can't say I'd agree with that, Toonie said he was the quickest in the Scotland squad and he keeps picking him - he was in the AI squad last year, the 6N squad this year and would have been first choice fullback in the summer had the tour gone ahead.
He has very good hand skills and a real eye for a gap, he has opened up defences when acting as first receiver and he has a huge boot on him.

Kinghorn hasn't exactly flourished under the Cockerill regime, but who did? Duhan? Any winger who can knock a lock on his arse will do well playing for any side.
Mark Bennett? One of the best attacking 13s in the league for Glasgow, but for Embra? Chris Dean is very highly rated by his fellow players, and by his coaches but he has stalled badly. Jaco vdW? Nope. Charlie Shiel was going to be a superstar, at the arse end of last season he looked hesitant, slow and lacking the confidence that made him so special. JJ didn't kick on from early promise, Chamberlain sat getting skelfs in his airse for game after game as an unused sub.
Damo played ok and Wee Darcy will always give everything he has, but he could have been even better if we'd had been looking to manufacture space for him.

At 24 it's way too early to wrote off Kinghorn imo, there are good young Scottish players in the side, Hutchinson, Currie and Blain all look the part, I really really hope Kinghorn can make the switch

[Tichtheid]

btw and apropos of nowt, I was having the same discussion elsewhere and the name Rufus McLean came up, and it game me the excuse to watch this again, and again

[Big D]

Agree entirely. I can accept project players but not guys like Jaco who were capped purely as a break glass for emergency situation. Especially as when there was an emergency with Russell, Hastings, Weir all out they played Hogg at 10.

Kinghorn has been a huge disappointment imo. 5 years ago looked like he'd be world beating but he's actually just not very good.

I am equally disappointed Jaco got a new deal. Who knows maybe Blair can sort him out.

On Kinghorn, I think there is a middle ground between him being at fault and coaching. For a while the attaching game plan for Edinburgh was "give in to Bill, Blair or Duhan and they'll do something". Not conducive to the education and development of a full back.

[robmatic]

Is Kinghorn 1st choice 10?

Bizarre if he is IMO. He's still relatively young at 24, but the time for a switch was surely some point over the last few years as he was developing, not now when he is an established international level player and must be close to being an Edinburgh centurion - all at fullback or wing.

He's had a tough few years relatively speaking, but given the gameplan at Edinburgh effectively didn't allow for his greatest attributes. I also think he has solved some of his biggest issues from when he broke through at Edinburgh, specifically his tendency to lose concentration and his somewhat poor positioning.

Well, I’ve been saying for a few seasons that Edinburgh desperately need a 10 and Jaco isn’t up to it. Doesn’t look good.

I’m still pissed of Jaco was given a cap

I have time for Jaco, he's an honest player and he's obviously worked hard to develop his game since he came to Edinburgh. I don't think he's naturally a kicking fly half so we might actually see him flourish under a non-Cockerill game plan.

[I like neeps]

Well, I’ve been saying for a few seasons that Edinburgh desperately need a 10 and Jaco isn’t up to it. Doesn’t look good.

I’m still pissed of Jaco was given a cap

Agree entirely. I can accept project players but not guys like Jaco who were capped purely as a break glass for emergency situation. Especially as when there was an emergency with Russell, Hastings, Weir all out they played Hogg at 10.

Kinghorn has been a huge disappointment imo. 5 years ago looked like he'd be world beating but he's actually just not very good.

I can't say I'd agree with that, Toonie said he was the quickest in the Scotland squad and he keeps picking him - he was in the AI squad last year, the 6N squad this year and would have been first choice fullback in the summer had the tour gone ahead.
He has very good hand skills and a real eye for a gap, he has opened up defences when acting as first receiver and he has a huge boot on him.

Kinghorn hasn't exactly flourished under the Cockerill regime, but who did? Duhan? Any winger who can knock a lock on his arse will do well playing for any side.
Mark Bennett? One of the best attacking 13s in the league for Glasgow, but for Embra? Chris Dean is very highly rated by his fellow players, and by his coaches but he has stalled badly. Jaco vdW? Nope. Charlie Shiel was going to be a superstar, at the arse end of last season he looked hesitant, slow and lacking the confidence that made him so special. JJ didn't kick on from early promise, Chamberlain sat getting skelfs in his airse for game after game as an unused sub.
Damo played ok and Wee Darcy will always give everything he has, but he could have been even better if we'd had been looking to manufacture space for him.

At 24 it's way too early to wrote off Kinghorn imo, there are good young Scottish players in the side, Hutchinson, Currie and Blain all look the part, I really really hope Kinghorn can make the switch

Duhan... Graham... Sau... If anyone did well under cockers it was the back three!

Bennett was one of the best attacking 13s for Glasgow before the injuries. He was then second best to Nick Grigg (I think he's excellent) and then moved on when Huw Jones signed. Hopefully Bennett is good again this season but again not like centres never do well under Cockers Scott was incredibly when he was allowed to slim down.

I'm sure Kinghorn is very fast, and makes a line break every few weeks. But he also makes a lot of mistakes, didn't improve under the high ball ever and had lapses in concentration.

[Yr Alban]

Even if we agree Jaco isn’t good enough (which isn’t really a controversial notion), Embra have both Chamberlain and Savala on the books and with Pro14 game time at 10. If you were one of those guys, how would you feel to discover you’ve been shunted down the pecking order by a guy who has almost exclusively played in the back 3 at pro level?

[Slick]

I think some of that is a bit harsh on Kinghorn as well.

He certainly hasn't developed as we might of liked over the last couple of years but he was incredibly young when he was first capped and looked the part immediately, that doesn't just disappear. As Scotland has developed, he hasn't, and it's a big ask for a guy his age to go from hero to (not quite) zero in a short space of time and bounce back. I suspect he wasn't getting the help on that front from Cockers so hopefully the new regime can help him along.

I can't see an obvious talent like that being disregarded by Scottish rugby for too long.

[Tichtheid]

The parts of Kinghorn's game that really improved over the last couple of seasons are his defensive positioning and his taking of the high ball. There might be a bit of confirmation bias at work, these things tend to stick with players, Hogg still gets pelters for being defensively weak and poor under the high ball.

The part of Kinghorn's game that didn't show up as well was the big line breaks where he was running in open prairie for 30, 40 metres, however he did score as many last season as van der Merwe, Sau and Graham in as many games as Graham and vdM and far fewer than Sau, by the way I defended Sau elsewhere against very hard criticism of his defensive positioning and his work under a high ball, the same accusations get levelled at Duhan.

Kinghorn is 24, he still has time to make it as a ten, it won't be this year, but just say he makes it for the 2023 6N as the back up to Finn, he'll have just turned 26 by the start of the tournament, and there is nothing to stop him playing in the back three in the meantime.

[Yr Alban]

The parts of Kinghorn's game that really improved over the last couple of seasons are his defensive positioning and his taking of the high ball. There might be a bit of confirmation bias at work, these things tend to stick with players, Hogg still gets pelters for being defensively weak and poor under the high ball.

The part of Kinghorn's game that didn't show up as well was the big line breaks where he was running in open prairie for 30, 40 metres, however he did score as many last season as van der Merwe, Sau and Graham in as many games as Graham and vdM and far fewer than Sau, by the way I defended Sau elsewhere against very hard criticism of his defensive positioning and his work under a high ball, the same accusations get levelled at Duhan.

Kinghorn is 24, he still has time to make it as a ten, it won't be this year, but just say he makes it for the 2023 6N as the back up to Finn, he'll have just turned 26 by the start of the tournament, and there is nothing to stop him playing in the back three in the meantime.

Fair enough, but right now we have two front-rank contenders for the international 10 shirt, and less depth in the back 3, especially at 15. Maitland is an able backup to Hogg, but also 33. If Kinghorn is playing 10, who is the next cab off the rank? Right now it’s probably Cole Forbes?

The development options for 10 are currently getting more game time than the ones at 15. Or they were!

[KingBlairhorn]

Christ, Mark Robson is the most irritating commentator going. He has honestly listed the birthplace of every Glasgow player that isn’t Scotland. He asked Barclay if any Scotland international was actually born in Scotland. Such a bell end.

[Tichtheid]

Christ, Mark Robson is the most irritating commentator going. He has honestly listed the birthplace of every Glasgow player that isn’t Scotland. He asked Barclay if any Scotland international was actually born in Scotland. Such a bell end.

One of the absolute worst, he doesn’t know how to shut his hole for one second

[Slick]

Christ, Mark Robson is the most irritating commentator going. He has honestly listed the birthplace of every Glasgow player that isn’t Scotland. He asked Barclay if any Scotland international was actually born in Scotland. Such a bell end.

I’ve mentioned this on the commentator thread. He’s really bad

[Slick]

Dobie has been an awful lot better than Horne tonight

[KingBlairhorn]

Dobie has been an awful lot better than Horne tonight

Horne’s box kicking was awful

[Biffer]

Glasgow pick and go game on this last ten has been pish. One paced (and that pace is glacial) and predictable.

[KingBlairhorn]

Aye, not so good. It all looked a bit confused at times in set play attack, players clearly in the way blocking their own moves. A bit more practice needed.

Overall not the worst result at the Kingspan, but they’ll probably be kicking themselves they didn’t win.

Fair play to the Ulster fans when the first 50/20 was kicked around 70mins. I was expecting the crowd to go mental when Glasgow were given the throw but the crowd seemed to know the new law en mass. I’m not sure it would be the same in Scotland.

[Slick]

Entertaining match but Glasgow should have won it. Hopefully will give them a bit of confidence

[unionfan]

Dobie has been an awful lot better than Horne tonight

Horne’s box kicking was awful

Horne is a panic master. Very quick but seems the basic skills are lacking. Impressed tonite: Darge, Tuipolotu, Matthews, second set of props. Pass mark: Dobbie, both starting wings and fullback. Jury still out: both 10s, all three locks. Dunno what to say: Kline (I like him a lot), Wilson.

[Slick]

Dobie has been an awful lot better than Horne tonight

Horne’s box kicking was awful

Horne is a panic master. Very quick but seems the basic skills are lacking. Impressed tonite: Darge, Tuipolotu, Matthews, second set of props. Pass mark: Dobbie, both starting wings and fullback. Jury still out: both 10s, all three locks. Dunno what to say: Kline (I like him a lot), Wilson.

Sam Johnson is a very classy player and I thought Dobie was great

[Tichtheid]

The parts of Kinghorn's game that really improved over the last couple of seasons are his defensive positioning and his taking of the high ball. There might be a bit of confirmation bias at work, these things tend to stick with players, Hogg still gets pelters for being defensively weak and poor under the high ball.

The part of Kinghorn's game that didn't show up as well was the big line breaks where he was running in open prairie for 30, 40 metres, however he did score as many last season as van der Merwe, Sau and Graham in as many games as Graham and vdM and far fewer than Sau, by the way I defended Sau elsewhere against very hard criticism of his defensive positioning and his work under a high ball, the same accusations get levelled at Duhan.

Kinghorn is 24, he still has time to make it as a ten, it won't be this year, but just say he makes it for the 2023 6N as the back up to Finn, he'll have just turned 26 by the start of the tournament, and there is nothing to stop him playing in the back three in the meantime.

Fair enough, but right now we have two front-rank contenders for the international 10 shirt, and less depth in the back 3, especially at 15. Maitland is an able backup to Hogg, but also 33. If Kinghorn is playing 10, who is the next cab off the rank? Right now it’s probably Cole Forbes?

The development options for 10 are currently getting more game time than the ones at 15. Or they were!

There is nothing to say that Kinghorn can't be a back up for the back three for Scotland if he is playing ten for Edinburgh.
Graham played really well at 15 for Embra when Kinghorn was injured, I'd trust him as a back up option for Hogg, Hastings can play 15, Blain and McLean are both very good on the wing or at fullback, Steyn is another option. Hoyland has been playing well and will let no one down.
That's seven replacements for the back three before you get to McGuigan, Duncan Taylor, Huw Jones, Cole Forbes.

No doubt I've missed others

I don't think our back three resources are all that bad, to be honest

[Biffer]

There are plenty of players who switch comfortably between ten and fifteen. To assume our players can't us just another layer of the Scottish 'oh, aren't we shit, thanks fir letting us play' cap doffing bullshit.

[Tichtheid]

Finn is back for Racing v Lyon today. 4pm, it clashes with Embra but I'll record it.

[Big D]

Dobie has been an awful lot better than Horne tonight

Horne’s box kicking was awful

Horne is a panic master. Very quick but seems the basic skills are lacking. Impressed tonite: Darge, Tuipolotu, Matthews, second set of props. Pass mark: Dobbie, both starting wings and fullback. Jury still out: both 10s, all three locks. Dunno what to say: Kline (I like him a lot), Wilson.

Browns last passage of play was embarrassing. Get ball, go alone, stand up right and throw it away. Threw away a golden opportunity for a big time away win.

[I like neeps]

The parts of Kinghorn's game that really improved over the last couple of seasons are his defensive positioning and his taking of the high ball. There might be a bit of confirmation bias at work, these things tend to stick with players, Hogg still gets pelters for being defensively weak and poor under the high ball.

The part of Kinghorn's game that didn't show up as well was the big line breaks where he was running in open prairie for 30, 40 metres, however he did score as many last season as van der Merwe, Sau and Graham in as many games as Graham and vdM and far fewer than Sau, by the way I defended Sau elsewhere against very hard criticism of his defensive positioning and his work under a high ball, the same accusations get levelled at Duhan.

Kinghorn is 24, he still has time to make it as a ten, it won't be this year, but just say he makes it for the 2023 6N as the back up to Finn, he'll have just turned 26 by the start of the tournament, and there is nothing to stop him playing in the back three in the meantime.

Fair enough, but right now we have two front-rank contenders for the international 10 shirt, and less depth in the back 3, especially at 15. Maitland is an able backup to Hogg, but also 33. If Kinghorn is playing 10, who is the next cab off the rank? Right now it’s probably Cole Forbes?

The development options for 10 are currently getting more game time than the ones at 15. Or they were!

There is nothing to say that Kinghorn can't be a back up for the back three for Scotland if he is playing ten for Edinburgh.
Graham played really well at 15 for Embra when Kinghorn was injured, I'd trust him as a back up option for Hogg, Hastings can play 15, Blain and McLean are both very good on the wing or at fullback, Steyn is another option. Hoyland has been playing well and will let no one down.
That's seven replacements for the back three before you get to McGuigan, Duncan Taylor, Huw Jones, Cole Forbes.

No doubt I've missed others

I don't think our back three resources are all that bad, to be honest

I think our back three is very ropey. Hogg and Duhan - sorted. Maitland one of Scotland's best players of the last decade not long left. Then you have Graham - exceptional. And then you have a whole lot of question marks. Steyn looks great for Glasgow after his injury let's see. Hoyland is a fantastic club player I'm not so sure international class. Then you have McLean, Forbes, Blain who are young guys wait and see. Then McGuigan could do a job, Duncan Taylor is nowhere near wing speed now and made of tablet. Jones/Hastings could be tried at fullback.

Kinghorn was supposed to be the answer at 14 but he's way off.

[Jock42]

Thats an ominous start. Dropping the first ever competitive ball

[KingBlairhorn]

Vellacott having an absolute stormer here

[Tichtheid]

Vellacott having an absolute stormer here

He has serious wheels on him.

I thought we were going to get battered after 20 minutes because we couldn't get any possession or territory.

Kinghorn has had a mixed bag, which was always going to be the case, but what he has done well he has done brilliantly.

Wee Darcy is on fire.

[robmatic]

Vellacott having an absolute stormer here

He has some gas, hasn't he?

Scarlets look decent when they shift it wide but good defence from Edinburgh under a lot of pressure then some real liveliness going forward.

[Jock42]

Shite working shifts. What a spectacle for those in the ground today. Not going to be a chore watching Embra this season.

Agreed on Vellacott and Graham. Bennett having a decent game too, as is Crosbie. Richie bit of a mixed bag but being a nuisance. Immelman looks like a solid signing so far.

[Jock42]

Anymore stoppages and I'm going to be late for work

[KingBlairhorn]

More excitement from Edinburgh this game than the whole of last season.