The Official English Rugby Thread

[Raggs]

I was putting Ford in the "no longer an England player" bracket, but absolutely

Christ I hope that's not the case.

[Margin__Walker]

Obano follows Watson into the Bath ruptured ACL club.

When it rains, it pours

[sockwithaticket]

Poor bugger's already had lots of time out with injuries.

Probably didn't do himself any favours by insisting on staying on to take part in a scrum after getting injured. Players really do need saving from themselves sometimes.

[Margin__Walker]

Interesting article (paywalled) on the difficulty working for and playing for with Eddie and high staff turnover.

Sounds like John Mitchell ended up telling Eddie to get fucked, when he tried to stop him going to watch his son play cricket on his day off.

As Mitchell was leaving, though, he was caught by Jones. Jones asked him where he was going and Mitchell replied: “I’m going to the cricket.” Jones told him: “No, you’re not.” Mitchell’s response was that it was a day off. Jones’s response was to tell Mitchell that, actually, he had some work for him to do.

This stand-off did not go well. The result was that Mitchell did indeed go to the cricket. On July 23, the RFU then released a press statement saying that, after the November series, Mitchell would be leaving his role as England’s defence coach. In fact, Mitchell didn’t even hang on that long; within days, he was in his new post at Wasps.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd8e ... 54e9dc2939

[SaintK]

Interesting article (paywalled) on the difficulty working for and playing for with Eddie and high staff turnover.

Sounds like John Mitchell ended up telling Eddie to get fucked, when he tried to stop him going to watch his son play cricket on his day off.

As Mitchell was leaving, though, he was caught by Jones. Jones asked him where he was going and Mitchell replied: “I’m going to the cricket.” Jones told him: “No, you’re not.” Mitchell’s response was that it was a day off. Jones’s response was to tell Mitchell that, actually, he had some work for him to do.

This stand-off did not go well. The result was that Mitchell did indeed go to the cricket. On July 23, the RFU then released a press statement saying that, after the November series, Mitchell would be leaving his role as England’s defence coach. In fact, Mitchell didn’t even hang on that long; within days, he was in his new post at Wasps.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd8e ... 54e9dc2939

Complete twat to work for!!!

[inactionman]

Interesting article (paywalled) on the difficulty working for and playing for with Eddie and high staff turnover.

Sounds like John Mitchell ended up telling Eddie to get fucked, when he tried to stop him going to watch his son play cricket on his day off.

As Mitchell was leaving, though, he was caught by Jones. Jones asked him where he was going and Mitchell replied: “I’m going to the cricket.” Jones told him: “No, you’re not.” Mitchell’s response was that it was a day off. Jones’s response was to tell Mitchell that, actually, he had some work for him to do.

This stand-off did not go well. The result was that Mitchell did indeed go to the cricket. On July 23, the RFU then released a press statement saying that, after the November series, Mitchell would be leaving his role as England’s defence coach. In fact, Mitchell didn’t even hang on that long; within days, he was in his new post at Wasps.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd8e ... 54e9dc2939

It's all a bit baffling - I get Eddie operates by constantly challenging people, but it doesn't help anyone to push people so far that that they up and leave. Not letting someone go and watch their son perform on their day off is pretty shitty, what exactly was it that Eddie thought was so important that couldn't wait?

I've worked with a few people who liked to press, but they usually worked by bollocking then praising effusively - keep people on toes, but keep people onside. Relentlessly slagging would just create a poisonous atmosphere. Made worse when your boss doesn't have your back, as Eddie has demonstrated on quite a few occasions.

[Kawazaki]

I guarantee that if you go to the comments in The Times you will find the usual mustard cords brigade singing Eddie's praises citing win percentage, win percentage and then more win percentage. The brainless fucking morons think he's great.

[Tichtheid]

Eddie's a brilliant England coach, he should get another ten years at least

[Brazil]

Quoted from a former boredist: "He's probably the hardest working coach in the game but his fanaticism is over the top. As Wallaby coach he went though assistant coaches at a rate of knots.
One of them was a friend of mine who told me he worked people into the ground and could be paranoid, vicious and vindictive, prone to extraordinary temper tantrums.
I was also turned off by his petulance at press conferences and baiting of opponents through the media. I see less of it these days, maybe he's grown up a little." Suspect the final sentence may still be up for review.

[sockwithaticket]

Non-paywalled version

https://archive.ph/mS0W9

Found this bit very interesting

Initially staff started disappearing in the summer of 2017, 18 months into Jones’s reign: a coach, an analyst, a psychologist, a senior communications officer. All of this was noted by the players. For a while, the players had a song about this, written by Jonny May, in which they would recall the missing. Soon there were too many to name and, really, it wasn’t funny any more.

In those days, the RFU used to name all the assistant England staff in the Twickenham match-day programmes, but this soon stopped because this just told the story of Jones’s revolving-door policy.

and this

“Also, the text messages: it’s not good for an athlete in the grind of a season if you come off the pitch from a club game and the first message you see — he’s clearly texted during the game — is telling you you’ve blown an opportunity. It’s basically saying ‘You’re shit’ in a one-liner. That’s not good for people’s confidence or wellbeing, especially if you’ve just lost a game or not played as well as you wanted to.

“You just end up worrying about what he’s thinking. In mid-game, I find myself worrying about doing certain things or expressing myself or being able to play with freedom because I’m worried about the message I’m going to get from him.

“I’ve been sat in pre-match food with my club and I’ve got a message telling me I wasn’t going to be selected for the next England squad — when you’re literally about to go and play a game. Can you imagine how mentally tough that is? When we told the other England coaches, they were fuming.”

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Apparently Gustard thought he was great! It seems he brought the same approach to Quins.

[JM2K6]

Apparently Gustard thought he was great! It seems he brought the same approach to Quins.

Yup. Quins had the same problem of coach (and player) turnover under Gustard. Clearly the pair of them think that being a gigantic cunt is what gets results.

Remarkable article. Did laugh at the bit about Johnny May's song for the fallen!

[SaintK]

Non-paywalled version

https://archive.ph/mS0W9

Found this bit very interesting

Initially staff started disappearing in the summer of 2017, 18 months into Jones’s reign: a coach, an analyst, a psychologist, a senior communications officer. All of this was noted by the players. For a while, the players had a song about this, written by Jonny May, in which they would recall the missing. Soon there were too many to name and, really, it wasn’t funny any more.

In those days, the RFU used to name all the assistant England staff in the Twickenham match-day programmes, but this soon stopped because this just told the story of Jones’s revolving-door policy.

and this

“Also, the text messages: it’s not good for an athlete in the grind of a season if you come off the pitch from a club game and the first message you see — he’s clearly texted during the game — is telling you you’ve blown an opportunity. It’s basically saying ‘You’re shit’ in a one-liner. That’s not good for people’s confidence or wellbeing, especially if you’ve just lost a game or not played as well as you wanted to.

“You just end up worrying about what he’s thinking. In mid-game, I find myself worrying about doing certain things or expressing myself or being able to play with freedom because I’m worried about the message I’m going to get from him.

“I’ve been sat in pre-match food with my club and I’ve got a message telling me I wasn’t going to be selected for the next England squad — when you’re literally about to go and play a game. Can you imagine how mentally tough that is? When we told the other England coaches, they were fuming.”

Thanks for that. What a gigantic cock of a man

[dpedin]

I can't see Cockerill lasting long ... he will probably lamp the wee shit!

[Kawazaki]

Interesting article (paywalled) on the difficulty working for and playing for with Eddie and high staff turnover.

Sounds like John Mitchell ended up telling Eddie to get fucked, when he tried to stop him going to watch his son play cricket on his day off.

As Mitchell was leaving, though, he was caught by Jones. Jones asked him where he was going and Mitchell replied: “I’m going to the cricket.” Jones told him: “No, you’re not.” Mitchell’s response was that it was a day off. Jones’s response was to tell Mitchell that, actually, he had some work for him to do.

This stand-off did not go well. The result was that Mitchell did indeed go to the cricket. On July 23, the RFU then released a press statement saying that, after the November series, Mitchell would be leaving his role as England’s defence coach. In fact, Mitchell didn’t even hang on that long; within days, he was in his new post at Wasps.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd8e ... 54e9dc2939

Just read the article in full. It's damning. Makes the point I've made for years that what Jones is truly exceptional at is managing up. He's an abysmal man-manager, selector and it appears, an aggressive bully with a chip on his shoulder about the English. In short, he's a total cunt.

[inactionman]

Interesting article (paywalled) on the difficulty working for and playing for with Eddie and high staff turnover.

Sounds like John Mitchell ended up telling Eddie to get fucked, when he tried to stop him going to watch his son play cricket on his day off.

As Mitchell was leaving, though, he was caught by Jones. Jones asked him where he was going and Mitchell replied: “I’m going to the cricket.” Jones told him: “No, you’re not.” Mitchell’s response was that it was a day off. Jones’s response was to tell Mitchell that, actually, he had some work for him to do.

This stand-off did not go well. The result was that Mitchell did indeed go to the cricket. On July 23, the RFU then released a press statement saying that, after the November series, Mitchell would be leaving his role as England’s defence coach. In fact, Mitchell didn’t even hang on that long; within days, he was in his new post at Wasps.

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd8e ... 54e9dc2939

Just read the article in full. It's damning. Makes the point I've made for years that what Jones is truly exceptional at is managing up. He's an abysmal man-manager, selector and it appears, an aggressive bully with a chip on his shoulder about the English. In short, he's a total cunt.

His argument seems to be that players should be tough enough for the environment he's created - despite little evidence I can see of that approach really ever working, so how he's worked out that hostile atmospheres bring out the best in people is beyond me. Yes, set high standards, but support players and other staff in reaching them.

c.f. Capello and Southgate in football - my old man works closely with some of the recently-ex England players and they all say the same thing about dreading going away with England, partly as club rivalries were left unchecked but also as the management (particularly under Capello who treated them like naughty schoolboys) were not creating any sort of team environment and it was simply a burdensome experience. Southgate has now made it a pleasant, supportive, decent environment and - lo and behold - the team have made semi and final in the last two tournaments.

I'm not claiming to be a world-leading manager but surely adjusting your approach to the character of each team member to get the best from each is the fundamental role of a manager?

[JM2K6]

IMO, you just need to look at the actually successful guys and see what they did. England under Woodward, NZ under a variety of coaches, SA under a variety of coaches, Ireland under Schmidt - none of these guys took any shit, but they also treated their players like professionals.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

I can't see Cockerill lasting long ... he will probably lamp the wee shit!

The other possibility is that they are birds of a feather and Cockers joins in the pile-on.

[JM2K6]

Anyway, getting away from Mad Eddie and his not so Merry Men, here's the lineups for what should've been a mouthwatering clash but instead has been hacked to pieces by our insane schedule:

Harlequins Starting XV
1. Santiago Garcia Botta
2. Jack Walker
3. Will Collier
4. Hugh Tizard
5. Dino Lamb
6. James Chisholm
7. Jack Kenningham
8. Tom Lawday
9. Danny Care – Captain
10. Tommy Allan
11. Cadan Murley
12. Andre Esterhuizen
13. Luke Northmore
14. Louis Lynagh
15. Tyrone Green

Impact Players
16. Sam Riley
17. Simon Kerrod
18. Wilco Louw
19. Stephan Lewies
20. Luke Wallace
21. Scott Steele
22. Will Edwards
23. Huw Jones

Saracens
1 Mako Vunipola
2 Tom Woolstencroft
3 Vincent Koch
4 Nick Isiekwe
5 Tim Swinson
6 Andy Christie
7 Jackson Wray (c)
8 Billy Vunipola
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Alex Lozowski
11 Sean Maitland
12 Nick Tompkins
13 Dom Morris
14 Alex Lewington
15 Alex Goode (c)

Replacements:

16 Ethan Lewis
17 Eroni Mawi
18 Marco Riccioni
19 Theo McFarland
20 Ben Earl
21 Aled Davies
22 Rotimi Segun
23 Elliott Obatoyinbo

Sarries with twice as many internationals starting, Quins down to their last man standing on the loosehead and he's pretty shit as it is. Not sure why Lawday is at 8 and not Chisholm. Losing Symons means a very raw second row pairing. Backs could do something great but not sure they're going to get much ball. Good to see Louw and Lewies back on the bench at least. Sarries should be comfortable favourites for this one.

It's a real shame we've been robbed of the chance to see Farrell vs Smith, Billy v Dombrandt, Marler v Koch, etc.

[Kawazaki]

Same number of players missing for England from both teams isn't it?

I hope Saracens tear Quins a new arsehole but suspect it's too close to call.

[inactionman]

wasps:
15 Marcus Watson, 14 Zach Kibirige, 13 Michael Le Bourgeois, 12 Jimmy Gopperth, 11 Josh Bassett, 10 Jacob Umaga, 9 Dan Robson; 1 Robin Hislop, 2 Gabriel Oghre, 3 Jeff Toomaga-Allen, 4 Vaea Fifita, 5 Elliott Stooke, 6 Brad Shields ©, 7 Thomas Young, 8 Tom Willis

REPLACEMENTS
16 Michael van Vuuren, 17 Zac Nearchou, 18 Elliot Millar-Mills, 19 Tim Cardall, 20 Nizaam Carr, 21 Will Porter, 22 Alex McHenry, 23 Ali Crossdale

I've a feeling this is not going to go well.

[sockwithaticket]

wasps:
15 Marcus Watson, 14 Zach Kibirige, 13 Michael Le Bourgeois, 12 Jimmy Gopperth, 11 Josh Bassett, 10 Jacob Umaga, 9 Dan Robson; 1 Robin Hislop, 2 Gabriel Oghre, 3 Jeff Toomaga-Allen, 4 Vaea Fifita, 5 Elliott Stooke, 6 Brad Shields ©, 7 Thomas Young, 8 Tom Willis

REPLACEMENTS
16 Michael van Vuuren, 17 Zac Nearchou, 18 Elliot Millar-Mills, 19 Tim Cardall, 20 Nizaam Carr, 21 Will Porter, 22 Alex McHenry, 23 Ali Crossdale

I've a feeling this is not going to go well.

Definitely a stronger team from us. I hope Booj is actually fit and not been rushed back in a panic due to the lack of centres.

Oghre's ban expiring has come at a great time. That's the third brand new name in the 16 shirt in as many matches. Not looking forward to scrums once the replacement front row come on; very green or new to Wasps.

Happy to see Porter rewarded for last week. Was miles better than Hougaard when he came on.

[ASMO]

Bath are mud, Wasps will beat them handily i think.

[Margin__Walker]

I put a few quid on Bath. Just for the Craic like.

[sockwithaticket]

Bath are mud, Wasps will beat them handily i think.

Nah, it'll be close. They might be badly coached, but we're a mid-table team at best.

[JM2K6]

Bath have so few players who'd be nailed on starters at other clubs.

[Kawazaki]

Bath have so few players who'd be nailed on starters at other clubs.

Four of them got in the England squad FFS.

#eddiot

[Dragster]

Wasps should handle that bath side.

Glaws have a reasonable side out.

[sockwithaticket]

Good try that. Exeter have looked quite vulnerably to the maul this season.

[Niegs]

Interesting article (paywalled) on the difficulty working for and playing for with Eddie and high staff turnover.

Sounds like John Mitchell ended up telling Eddie to get fucked, when he tried to stop him going to watch his son play cricket on his day off.



https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/fd8e ... 54e9dc2939

Just read the article in full. It's damning. Makes the point I've made for years that what Jones is truly exceptional at is managing up. He's an abysmal man-manager, selector and it appears, an aggressive bully with a chip on his shoulder about the English. In short, he's a total cunt.

His argument seems to be that players should be tough enough for the environment he's created - despite little evidence I can see of that approach really ever working, so how he's worked out that hostile atmospheres bring out the best in people is beyond me. Yes, set high standards, but support players and other staff in reaching them.

c.f. Capello and Southgate in football - my old man works closely with some of the recently-ex England players and they all say the same thing about dreading going away with England, partly as club rivalries were left unchecked but also as the management (particularly under Capello who treated them like naughty schoolboys) were not creating any sort of team environment and it was simply a burdensome experience. Southgate has now made it a pleasant, supportive, decent environment and - lo and behold - the team have made semi and final in the last two tournaments.

I'm not claiming to be a world-leading manager but surely adjusting your approach to the character of each team member to get the best from each is the fundamental role of a manager?

Not only do I think you're spot on, I think it's even more important with this generation. Unlikely to have had a hardass teacher in school, maybe not even parents. So having a coach do that isn't going to work at all, imo (like it ever should have as opposed to being respectfully demanding in ways that lead them to greatness).

And it's not them being 'soft'. I've found this generation no less driven to succeed, and even at the amateur level where I coach they're more 'professional' than people who were older than me when I started club rugby (highly unlikely to turn up to a match hungover, next to none smoke - even weed - more likely edibles if any, take care of their injuries, etc. better).

[sockwithaticket]

Glaws are doing a good job of making Exeter look fairly toothless.

[Niegs]

Excellent tracking by Woodward! Stood the forward up, bought just enough time for help to arrive and drive him into touch.

[Kawazaki]

Exeter getting found out a bit aren't they. They don't really have a Plan B.

[Niegs]

Even before that gaffe, was saying: "Points!" You're up by a converted try. Pot one over to make it a two score game and get possession back, ffs!

[Niegs]

I don't disagree with Ojo, but, um, 9 passing to a static runner is like 80% of 9's passes these days.

[Niegs]

Nice move, that, but arguably butchered by not giving one more pass to the wing.

... feeling a bit of 'I told you so' about not taking 3 when on offer!

[Niegs]

That's probably the shittest maul I've ever seen. I'm not so up on ref interpretations, but looks daft that three Exeter players could be bound on the Glos side of things.

[Paddington Bear]

Weird game with neither side able to land the killer blow

[Paddington Bear]

… and again. Didn’t draw the man properly in his desperation to put LRZ in

[Kawazaki]

… and again. Didn’t draw the man properly in his desperation to put LRZ in

That's a bit harsh!