The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[I like neeps]

One small concern about the debutants yesterday of the 5 developed in Scotland 4 went to private schools. Still need to work hard on developing rugby in state schools and clubs.

[Margin__Walker]

Kyle Rowe scored a cracking try off the bench for LI in the loss to Bristol yesterday. Apparently did similar in an A game the other day. May be one to watch this season.

[weegie01]

One small concern about the debutants yesterday of the 5 developed in Scotland 4 went to private schools. Still need to work hard on developing rugby in state schools and clubs.

My younger son did his honours paper on the dominance of the private schools in Scottish rugby and what to do about it. He interviewed coaches from full international down to club. The DoRs of rugby at all the major rugby playing schools, and players from club through to senior international covering players from both tracks. The fact he knows a lot of them personally was helpful as he got a few frank comments which may not otherwise have been forthcoming.

There is some really interesting thinking going on. At Scotland age group level players are supposed to be picked on potential, not achievement. It is widely recognised that a player who goes to a private school will look better than an equivalently talented player one from a state school / club due to better coaching, playing in better teams etc. So coaches needed to look past current performance and look at potential.

While all the coaches agreed this was the theory and was practiced, the close calls always went to the private school pupils. The coaches are still expected to produce winning teams, so if there is a state school kid who is raw but clearly has huge potential they get the nod, even over a private
school pupil who is currently executing at a higher level due to coaching rather than talent. But on close calls, they'll go with the known quantity.

It would take pages to explain the things that are being looked at, but I was impressed by the range options being discussed, and by the fact that the DoRs in the private schools are surprisingly active at driving the debate. As one put it 'we need more competition as we really only get a half dozen truly competitive games a year,. It is too easy for us as coaches and the players so no one comes out properly hardened for senior rugby'.

[Big D]

I like Blair Kinghorn, he’s 24 years old and has talked about the abuse he’s had on social media and how it affects guys like himself who are at the age where using the internet is such a big part of their lives.
I’m not saying that makes rugby players immune to fair or realistic criticism, but I wonder, Slick, is Ross Thompson more deserving of being developed by dint of being two years younger than Kinghorn?
To my mind Kinghorn has a huge ceiling as a fly half and this was the game to try him out, his pass for one of McLean’s tries was straight out of the Finn play book, as was the kick to Steyn.
Not everything came off, he was bounced by the winger who bounced Graham a few times but no one is calling out his defence

This was BK’s what fourth pro start at 10? I hope he shows the critics up, I really do.

On another note Jamie Ritchie showed again that he should have toured with the Lions

Tichtheid, I think if you look back in this thread you will see I am a huge fan of Kinghorn. he is an incredibly skilful player (Barclay said yesterday one of the most skilful he has played with) a beautiful runner and passer and has great vision. His coming on to the scene at a young age was fantastic and I hope he is around the team for many years. His form has dipped a little in the last couple of years but I'd still have him in just about every squad i pick.

You might be right, he might become a great fly half, but I don't think he is at the moment. I didn't think he played particularly well yesterday, or the other game I've seen him play in that position for his club, and if you watch again he missed a lot more than one tackle. Having played fly half all my "career", some at a decent level, I do concentrate on that position a bit more than the others and can probably be a bit more critical, but ultimately I haven't seen very much to convince me he is a top level 10 and I'm not sure it's worth pursuing. He will eventually take over from Hogg and in the meantime can cover, or play, in the back 3. Who knows, but I don't think Toony sees him as a realistic 10 either.

It has nothing to do with age, but Ross Thompson is a 10, has always been a 10 and will always be a 10 , so we should be developing him rather than trying to shoehorn someone into a position I don't think they look comfortable in.

Zero to do with Kinghorn as a young, talented player.

The fact Edinburgh have moved him and Townsend has followed it through (possibly protecting Thomson for a bit as it is early in his career) suggests its happened at worst with Townsend's agreement.

Criticism should be aimed at the coaches rather than Blair Kinghorn. IIRC he only played 10 at U20s when the first choice was rested.

We are "Mossying" him because our grass roots system can't produce a 10 and one of our clubs is left with the likes of Jaco who is bang average for a pro.

Looking back through the 20s there's been; Thomson, Chamberlain (not Scottish system), Henderson (now in Hong Kong), Eastgate (not Scottish system), Hastings (not Scottish system), Hutchinson played 10 (not Scottish system), Chalmers (not sure where we went after Bordeaux), Tommy Allen (not Scottish system), Leonard (grew up down south), Russell who played 12 IIRC, then we are back to Duncam Weir.

So since Russell came through there is only Hastings and Thomson getting regular game time at 10 anywhere excluding Allen.

I get that standoff is a hard position to fill but across the 2 pro teams there are 2 10s that came through the Scottish system.

Townsend is 19 and who knows if he'll be good enough to but there has to be a better plan with him.

[I like neeps]

Hastings did come through the Scottish pathways he just left for Millfield as Gav thought the English private schools game would be harder than Hastings being part of an all conquering Watson's side. He probably wasn't wrong.

But yes it's a real problem, Scotland doesn't have enough young kids playing.

[JM2K6]

Huw Jones had a bit of a shocker off the bench today

[I like neeps]

Huw Jones had a bit of a shocker off the bench today

Get used to it I'm afraid. Couldn't get in the Glasgow team as a 13.

But Townsend keeps picking him over Hutchinson. Annoying!

[JM2K6]

Huw Jones had a bit of a shocker off the bench today

Get used to it I'm afraid. Couldn't get in the Glasgow team as a 13.

But Townsend keeps picking him over Hutchinson. Annoying!

Well there goes my theory the problem is we're playing him at 12

[KingBlairhorn]

One small concern about the debutants yesterday of the 5 developed in Scotland 4 went to private schools. Still need to work hard on developing rugby in state schools and clubs.

I would agree it’s an issue we need to improve on and it’s good to hear (further down thread) that it’s being actively looked at. I would say it’s not just a Scotland issue though. If you look through the Ireland squad for instance the number of them that didn’t come through a private school is tiny (excluding the qualifying players from outside Ireland). I think there must be 10-12 from Blackrock & St Michaels alone. Perhaps we should be asking, and again it sounds like we are, why the Irish private schools are producing a higher standard of player. It’s almost certainly not money, because as I understand it our schools have considerably more than theirs.

[I like neeps]

Huw Jones had a bit of a shocker off the bench today

Get used to it I'm afraid. Couldn't get in the Glasgow team as a 13.

But Townsend keeps picking him over Hutchinson. Annoying!

Well there goes my theory the problem is we're playing him at 12

That's mad he can't pass.

[Big D]

Hastings did come through the Scottish pathways he just left for Millfield as Gav thought the English private schools game would be harder than Hastings being part of an all conquering Watson's side. He probably wasn't wrong.

But yes it's a real problem, Scotland doesn't have enough young kids playing.

Fair cop.on Hastings.

[robmatic]

I like Blair Kinghorn, he’s 24 years old and has talked about the abuse he’s had on social media and how it affects guys like himself who are at the age where using the internet is such a big part of their lives.
I’m not saying that makes rugby players immune to fair or realistic criticism, but I wonder, Slick, is Ross Thompson more deserving of being developed by dint of being two years younger than Kinghorn?
To my mind Kinghorn has a huge ceiling as a fly half and this was the game to try him out, his pass for one of McLean’s tries was straight out of the Finn play book, as was the kick to Steyn.
Not everything came off, he was bounced by the winger who bounced Graham a few times but no one is calling out his defence

This was BK’s what fourth pro start at 10? I hope he shows the critics up, I really do.

On another note Jamie Ritchie showed again that he should have toured with the Lions

I have a lot of time for Kinghorn and some of the criticism of him online is just daft, but like you said he's barely played at 10 and he's got some way to go yet with the game management side of things. Jaco also doesn't have many fans it seems, but to me he's looked better than Kinghorn for Embra so far this season, even if he doesn't have the same potential.

I don't think we learned much about Kinghorn's ability as an international 10 from Saturday's game - I think we would learn more from him turning out for his club against Leinster etc - but I reckon Toonie is prepping him to be what could be a very useful option in a matchday 23 or World Cup squad. If there is a 6-2 split on the bench, Kinghorn can cover 10, wing, full back and Toonie was talking about him being able to play outside centre. The World Cup squad can be two specialist 10s in Russell and Hastings with Kinghorn as back up.

[Slick]

I like Blair Kinghorn, he’s 24 years old and has talked about the abuse he’s had on social media and how it affects guys like himself who are at the age where using the internet is such a big part of their lives.
I’m not saying that makes rugby players immune to fair or realistic criticism, but I wonder, Slick, is Ross Thompson more deserving of being developed by dint of being two years younger than Kinghorn?
To my mind Kinghorn has a huge ceiling as a fly half and this was the game to try him out, his pass for one of McLean’s tries was straight out of the Finn play book, as was the kick to Steyn.
Not everything came off, he was bounced by the winger who bounced Graham a few times but no one is calling out his defence

This was BK’s what fourth pro start at 10? I hope he shows the critics up, I really do.

On another note Jamie Ritchie showed again that he should have toured with the Lions

I have a lot of time for Kinghorn and some of the criticism of him online is just daft, but like you said he's barely played at 10 and he's got some way to go yet with the game management side of things. Jaco also doesn't have many fans it seems, but to me he's looked better than Kinghorn for Embra so far this season, even if he doesn't have the same potential.

I don't think we learned much about Kinghorn's ability as an international 10 from Saturday's game - I think we would learn more from him turning out for his club against Leinster etc - but I reckon Toonie is prepping him to be what could be a very useful option in a matchday 23 or World Cup squad. If there is a 6-2 split on the bench, Kinghorn can cover 10, wing, full back and Toonie was talking about him being able to play outside centre. The World Cup squad can be two specialist 10s in Russell and Hastings with Kinghorn as back up.

This makes a lot of sense.

I didn't know he had been copping abuse online, that's mental - what's being said?

[I like neeps]

Would be annoyed if we started with 6/2 benches. It's fine for the super negative rugby of South Africa and England as their clear strength is just having a better pack than everyone else. We don't have that strength and generally rely on our backs to win us games. Would be especially annoyed if the only back on the bench was Kinghorn as if we're playing him at 10 in a tier one test not a money grab training one against a tier 2 side with an arm tied behind their back we're in trouble. He's also not one of our better back three players either.

[robmatic]

I like Blair Kinghorn, he’s 24 years old and has talked about the abuse he’s had on social media and how it affects guys like himself who are at the age where using the internet is such a big part of their lives.
I’m not saying that makes rugby players immune to fair or realistic criticism, but I wonder, Slick, is Ross Thompson more deserving of being developed by dint of being two years younger than Kinghorn?
To my mind Kinghorn has a huge ceiling as a fly half and this was the game to try him out, his pass for one of McLean’s tries was straight out of the Finn play book, as was the kick to Steyn.
Not everything came off, he was bounced by the winger who bounced Graham a few times but no one is calling out his defence

This was BK’s what fourth pro start at 10? I hope he shows the critics up, I really do.

On another note Jamie Ritchie showed again that he should have toured with the Lions

I have a lot of time for Kinghorn and some of the criticism of him online is just daft, but like you said he's barely played at 10 and he's got some way to go yet with the game management side of things. Jaco also doesn't have many fans it seems, but to me he's looked better than Kinghorn for Embra so far this season, even if he doesn't have the same potential.

I don't think we learned much about Kinghorn's ability as an international 10 from Saturday's game - I think we would learn more from him turning out for his club against Leinster etc - but I reckon Toonie is prepping him to be what could be a very useful option in a matchday 23 or World Cup squad. If there is a 6-2 split on the bench, Kinghorn can cover 10, wing, full back and Toonie was talking about him being able to play outside centre. The World Cup squad can be two specialist 10s in Russell and Hastings with Kinghorn as back up.

This makes a lot of sense.

I didn't know he had been copping abuse online, that's mental - what's being said?

I dunno about direct abuse but I saw one comment at the weekend that he shouldn't be starting at 10 as he was "too smug". A fly half, smug? It's like complaining about a scrum half being gobby.

[clydecloggie]

Amusing footage of a game that would never go ahead these days.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Amusing footage of a game that would never go ahead these days.

Sometimes joked about drowning at the bottom of a ruck, but never played in conditions where it was a genuine likelihood!

[Slick]

Did you see the stamp on Bruce Hay's head at about 50 seconds! What a twat

[clydecloggie]

[sockwithaticket]

Pleased for Hislop, he's been stellar for us in the opening games of the season. Can you please send him back in one piece? We've already got enough injury worries in the pack.

[dpedin]

Are these injuries? I was hoping to see Darge get a chance this autumn, he has been the top 7 in Scotland this year and Watson is very short of match practice and not on top form.

[clydecloggie]

Are these injuries? I was hoping to see Darge get a chance this autumn, he has been the top 7 in Scotland this year and Watson is very short of match practice and not on top form.

Darge and Sutherland confirmed as injuries. Bradbury and Hoyland may just be surplus to requirements? Announcement didn't give a specific reason for those two.

Hoyland I get - with McLean and Steyn bagging 6 tries between them and generally showing excellent winger skills, it'd be hard for him to get into the conversation for the remaining 3 matches.
Bradbury would be a disappointment if he is seen as not good enough.

[Jock42]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

[robmatic]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

[Jock42]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

Cheers

[I like neeps]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

Auterac has been starting for saints quite a bit lately. I watch their games whenever on as I like to watch Hutchinson and the Chris Boyd style of rugby.

I don't think Bradbury has pissed on anyone's chips. He's a replacement at Edinburgh, he hardly demands selection. In the last year Haining has performed well when given the chance for Scotland.

[SaintK]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

Auterac has been starting for saints quite a bit lately. I watch their games whenever on as I like to watch Hutchinson and the Chris Boyd style of rugby.

I don't think Bradbury has pissed on anyone's chips. He's a replacement at Edinburgh, he hardly demands selection. In the last year Haining has performed well when given the chance for Scotland.

Two starts while Waller was injured and three from the bench
Serial club hopper

[Biffer]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

They sound like minor characters in Les Miserables.

[Slick]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

They sound like minor characters in Les Miserables.

[Slick]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

[SaintK]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

Auterac out of Saracens academy and England U20's in 2012. Been to Bath, Quins and Saints in recent times.
Born in London, Auterac not a very English/Scots name so maybe his Scottish connection is on his Mum's side
Certainly not an international standard prop

[sockwithaticket]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

[Slick]

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

Well, I guess the Super6 is meant to address this but it is very early stages. In saying that, to be perfectly honest it is a bit disappointing that we are searching around for people to make up the numbers given the number of Saffers we have adopted recently.

[I like neeps]

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

There are not. The only Scottish qualified looseheads we have in Scotland not in the squad are academy guys, Sam Grahamslaw (4th choice at Edinburgh) or Nathan McBeth (recently signed from SA).

Scotland are scratching the barrel. It's a quite strange we compete at the level we do with only two professional teams.

[Wylie Coyote]

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

There are not. The only Scottish qualified looseheads we have in Scotland not in the squad are academy guys, Sam Grahamslaw (4th choice at Edinburgh) or Nathan McBeth (recently signed from SA).

Scotland are scratching the barrel. It's a quite strange we compete at the level we do with only two professional teams.

What happened to Allan Dell? He was a decent enough loosehead, seems to have vanished of late.

[charltom]

Who are Auterac and Sebastian?

Bradbury has definitely pissed on Toonies chips, probably whilst his mum was eating them.

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

They were named in a Scotland squad earlier in the year. Was it the squad that ended up with no matches?

[I like neeps]

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

There are not. The only Scottish qualified looseheads we have in Scotland not in the squad are academy guys, Sam Grahamslaw (4th choice at Edinburgh) or Nathan McBeth (recently signed from SA).

Scotland are scratching the barrel. It's a quite strange we compete at the level we do with only two professional teams.

What happened to Allan Dell? He was a decent enough loosehead, seems to have vanished of late.

He's a replacement for London Irish

[robmatic]

Sebastian is a tighthead at Scarlets, had a year at Glasgow a few years back. Auterac is a prop at Saints, loosehead I think? Don't think either are regular starters.

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

There are only two pro teams in the Scotland, it doesn't leave you with too many guys getting gametime at a decent level. Front row is especially problematic when it comes to to development in Scotland because playing the young guys generally involves the scrum getting minced in the ProXX/URC and until recently the level below the two pro teams was amateur and not up to much. The new Super 6 competition is semi pro and after a season or two that should lead to more professional standard players coming through.

Hislop is a good example of the problem, actually. Didn't get much of an opportunity at Edinburgh when he was 20/21 so left to play in the English Championship and after a few seasons down there he seems to have become a decent player and is doing alright in the Premiership.

[sockwithaticket]

I see Sebastien has a Scottish dad, can't find the link for Auterac?

Never heard of either of them, which doesn't sit particularly well.

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

There are only two pro teams in the Scotland, it doesn't leave you with too many guys getting gametime at a decent level. Front row is especially problematic when it comes to to development in Scotland because playing the young guys generally involves the scrum getting minced in the ProXX/URC and until recently the level below the two pro teams was amateur and not up to much. The new Super 6 competition is semi pro and after a season or two that should lead to more professional standard players coming through.

Hislop is a good example of the problem, actually. Didn't get much of an opportunity at Edinburgh when he was 20/21 so left to play in the English Championship and after a few seasons down there he seems to have become a decent player and is doing alright in the Premiership.

I was thinking that with 2 pro teams you must have at least 6 SQP looseheads who are pro-level at minimum plus whichever others have moved on elsewhere for better money like Sutherland; after that you might need to pick up the likes of Hislop every now and then.

[Biffer]

Edinburgh have played Schoeman, Nel and two SA props for a fair number of games recently. Apart from those two our only Scottish prop is Grahamslaw.