The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[I like neeps]

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

There are only two pro teams in the Scotland, it doesn't leave you with too many guys getting gametime at a decent level. Front row is especially problematic when it comes to to development in Scotland because playing the young guys generally involves the scrum getting minced in the ProXX/URC and until recently the level below the two pro teams was amateur and not up to much. The new Super 6 competition is semi pro and after a season or two that should lead to more professional standard players coming through.

Hislop is a good example of the problem, actually. Didn't get much of an opportunity at Edinburgh when he was 20/21 so left to play in the English Championship and after a few seasons down there he seems to have become a decent player and is doing alright in the Premiership.

I was thinking that with 2 pro teams you must have at least 6 SQP looseheads who are pro-level at minimum plus whichever others have moved on elsewhere for better money like Sutherland; after that you might need to pick up the likes of Hislop every now and then.

No because as Rob says the pro teams need to be competitive so need to have a good scrum so don't really develop props at all. Unless a prop is a freak like Fagerson they don't ever get picked until 23/24 by which time a lot of development has been wasted. Currently more props in Scotland that came from South Africa than are from Scotland. It's a mess. The pro teams are set up to compete not develop really.

This is what I don't like about the Scottish strategy of player eligibility. It's fine as a supplement but we turned it into strategic resourcing of certain positions. I'd be happy if there was never another player like Schoeman, Kebble or Nel signed with the explicit purpose of playing for Scotland. I like them all as individuals and you can see it does mean a lot to them. But it's plastering a structural issue.

[robmatic]

Auterac is a grandparent iirc, he's an ex-England U20 and did have a few years of looking top drawer in the Prem, probably was international quality during those, but injuries have really done for him.

Re: the bolded, calling up guys like him isn't a great look; it seems a bit barrel-scrapy. Are you really that low on depth? Surely there's someone in the Scottish system who'd be a better bet? Felt the same about a few of the names called up to your Summer squad.

There are only two pro teams in the Scotland, it doesn't leave you with too many guys getting gametime at a decent level. Front row is especially problematic when it comes to to development in Scotland because playing the young guys generally involves the scrum getting minced in the ProXX/URC and until recently the level below the two pro teams was amateur and not up to much. The new Super 6 competition is semi pro and after a season or two that should lead to more professional standard players coming through.

Hislop is a good example of the problem, actually. Didn't get much of an opportunity at Edinburgh when he was 20/21 so left to play in the English Championship and after a few seasons down there he seems to have become a decent player and is doing alright in the Premiership.

I was thinking that with 2 pro teams you must have at least 6 SQP looseheads who are pro-level at minimum plus whichever others have moved on elsewhere for better money like Sutherland; after that you might need to pick up the likes of Hislop every now and then.

Nah, if you are a coach at one of the pro teams, you don't want to have only Scottish-qualified props because if they are any good potentially all of them are likely to be unavailable for chunks of the season because they get called up to the national team. It's quite hard to be competitive in a league game against Munster when your first and second choice tightheads, for example, are in a Scotland training camp. It might be more feasible for the pro teams to go purely Scottish-qualified from now on if the URC continues to not clash with international windows though.

[robmatic]

Edinburgh have played Schoeman, Nel and two SA props for a fair number of games recently. Apart from those two our only Scottish prop is Grahamslaw.

That is mainly due to Cockerill encouraging three Scottish-developed props to piss off last season though.

[I like neeps]

There are only two pro teams in the Scotland, it doesn't leave you with too many guys getting gametime at a decent level. Front row is especially problematic when it comes to to development in Scotland because playing the young guys generally involves the scrum getting minced in the ProXX/URC and until recently the level below the two pro teams was amateur and not up to much. The new Super 6 competition is semi pro and after a season or two that should lead to more professional standard players coming through.

Hislop is a good example of the problem, actually. Didn't get much of an opportunity at Edinburgh when he was 20/21 so left to play in the English Championship and after a few seasons down there he seems to have become a decent player and is doing alright in the Premiership.

I was thinking that with 2 pro teams you must have at least 6 SQP looseheads who are pro-level at minimum plus whichever others have moved on elsewhere for better money like Sutherland; after that you might need to pick up the likes of Hislop every now and then.

Nah, if you are a coach at one of the pro teams, you don't want to have only Scottish-qualified props because if they are any good potentially all of them are likely to be unavailable for chunks of the season because they get called up to the national team. It's quite hard to be competitive in a league game against Munster when your first and second choice tightheads, for example, are in a Scotland training camp. It might be more feasible for the pro teams to go purely Scottish-qualified from now on if the URC continues to not clash with international windows though.

I think it makes it even less likely that we now develop Scottish props because Munster are now playing their first choice props every week. Good luck playing full noise Irish teams with inexperienced props. The URC massively cuts down on development players getting gametime. The pro14 international windows were good for Scottish teams as it meant loads of guys actually played rugby. When are those guys now going to play?

The super 6 might be good in a long time but the standout props this year were Thornton at 1 and McLaren at 3. Thornton has gone to the championship in England when is McLean playing rugby until the next super 6? How do you develop playing 10 semi pro games every year? You do not.

[Yr Alban]

OK, I’ll be the one to say it, someone’s going to eventually. We need a third pro team - somewhere that the guys who might actually come through the Super 6 can actually get games. Yes, it would be a development side. Yes, it would have trouble competing. But if we don’t have one then I don’t know where these guys will go for game time.

[Big D]

OK, I’ll be the one to say it, someone’s going to eventually. We need a third pro team - somewhere that the guys who might actually come through the Super 6 can actually get games. Yes, it would be a development side. Yes, it would have trouble competing. But if we don’t have one then I don’t know where these guys will go for game time.

The SRU can't afford it and I doubt the IRFU, WRU, SARFU, Italians and CVC are in a rush to see a 3rd Scottish side in the URC that would get pumped when they are trying to sell the product to a wider market. They already have Zebre who are shite.

I'd be surprised if the member clubs voted for it too.

[Jock42]

I've said it before but I'd go to see a development side if it were my District. I'd even get a season ticket (depending on price to time off ratio).

[Yr Alban]

OK, I’ll be the one to say it, someone’s going to eventually. We need a third pro team - somewhere that the guys who might actually come through the Super 6 can actually get games. Yes, it would be a development side. Yes, it would have trouble competing. But if we don’t have one then I don’t know where these guys will go for game time.

The SRU can't afford it and I doubt the IRFU, WRU, SARFU, Italians and CVC are in a rush to see a 3rd Scottish side in the URC that would get pumped when they are trying to sell the product to a wider market. They already have Zebre who are shite.

I'd be surprised if the member clubs voted for it too.

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

[Biffer]

OK, I’ll be the one to say it, someone’s going to eventually. We need a third pro team - somewhere that the guys who might actually come through the Super 6 can actually get games. Yes, it would be a development side. Yes, it would have trouble competing. But if we don’t have one then I don’t know where these guys will go for game time.

The SRU can't afford it and I doubt the IRFU, WRU, SARFU, Italians and CVC are in a rush to see a 3rd Scottish side in the URC that would get pumped when they are trying to sell the product to a wider market. They already have Zebre who are shite.

I'd be surprised if the member clubs voted for it too.

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

So where does the money come from?

[I like neeps]

Money, stadium, league, fanbase, training facilities etc.

We need a third pro team, we can't have one though. Too logistically challenging to set up sustainable professional sports clubs.

[Yr Alban]

The SRU can't afford it and I doubt the IRFU, WRU, SARFU, Italians and CVC are in a rush to see a 3rd Scottish side in the URC that would get pumped when they are trying to sell the product to a wider market. They already have Zebre who are shite.

I'd be surprised if the member clubs voted for it too.

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

So where does the money come from?

I honestly don't know. I'm no accountant. But the Welsh run 4 centrally controlled teams and aren't noticeably richer than we are. Surely we could manage 3?

[Big D]

OK, I’ll be the one to say it, someone’s going to eventually. We need a third pro team - somewhere that the guys who might actually come through the Super 6 can actually get games. Yes, it would be a development side. Yes, it would have trouble competing. But if we don’t have one then I don’t know where these guys will go for game time.

The SRU can't afford it and I doubt the IRFU, WRU, SARFU, Italians and CVC are in a rush to see a 3rd Scottish side in the URC that would get pumped when they are trying to sell the product to a wider market. They already have Zebre who are shite.

I'd be surprised if the member clubs voted for it too.

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

The SRU aren't solely responsible for the professional game. By giving more money to the pro game they'd be taking money from their member clubs, womans rugby, school programmes, initiatives who badly need it. They are talking about expanding the S6 to S8.

The cost of a 3rd pro team would be smaller than Edinburgh and Glasgow but still likely £3m+. They would need to rent a stadium and training facilities.

The SRU have tried and failed to punt Glasgow and Edinburgh to private companies and gotten nowhere, so it is unlikely private money will provide the funds so the SRU would need to cut another £3-4m minimum from another part of their spending.

They are responsible for much more than the Scotland men's national team and if the members would have to be convinced that it was beneficial before voting positively for it, especially considering it failed the last time.

[Big D]

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

So where does the money come from?

I honestly don't know. I'm no accountant. But the Welsh run 4 centrally controlled teams and aren't noticeably richer than we are. Surely we could manage 3?

Aren't the Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys privately owned?

[Yr Alban]

The SRU can't afford it and I doubt the IRFU, WRU, SARFU, Italians and CVC are in a rush to see a 3rd Scottish side in the URC that would get pumped when they are trying to sell the product to a wider market. They already have Zebre who are shite.

I'd be surprised if the member clubs voted for it too.

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

The SRU aren't solely responsible for the professional game. By giving more money to the pro game they'd be taking money from their member clubs, womans rugby, school programmes, initiatives who badly need it. They are talking about expanding the S6 to S8.

The cost of a 3rd pro team would be smaller than Edinburgh and Glasgow but still likely £3m+. They would need to rent a stadium and training facilities.

The SRU have tried and failed to punt Glasgow and Edinburgh to private companies and gotten nowhere, so it is unlikely private money will provide the funds so the SRU would need to cut another £3-4m minimum from another part of their spending.

They are responsible for much more than the Scotland men's national team and if the members would have to be convinced that it was beneficial before voting positively for it, especially considering it failed the last time.

This is the problem though. These are well rehearsed arguments. We are both right. And yet a solution has to be found somehow if we want to remain in any way competitive. I have liked the look of the S6 this year - but it's not going to be a whole lot of use if the players it develops can't get a look in at pro level.

[Yr Alban]

So where does the money come from?

I honestly don't know. I'm no accountant. But the Welsh run 4 centrally controlled teams and aren't noticeably richer than we are. Surely we could manage 3?

Aren't the Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys privately owned?

Are they? I was under the impression that all of the Welsh players were centrally contracted and the clubs centrally run. Willing to be corrected though?

[Big D]

I honestly don't know. I'm no accountant. But the Welsh run 4 centrally controlled teams and aren't noticeably richer than we are. Surely we could manage 3?

Aren't the Blues, Scarlets and Ospreys privately owned?

Are they? I was under the impression that all of the Welsh players were centrally contracted and the clubs centrally run. Willing to be corrected though?

Ospreys are definitely 75% owned by a couple of businessmen.

Not sure how it works but only the Dragons are run by the Union IIRC.

[robmatic]

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

So where does the money come from?

I honestly don't know. I'm no accountant. But the Welsh run 4 centrally controlled teams and aren't noticeably richer than we are. Surely we could manage 3?

Even with Welsh rugby in the doldrums they do have more folk turning up to watch their games (international and pro) than in Scotland so presumably the income streams are better. It's taken Edinburgh and Glasgow ages to get up to even their current crowd levels, and that has been with Glasgow playing outstanding, winning rugby over a number of seasons.

I am guessing that the two pro teams are much closer to sustainability than they used to be, with the new TV deals and better crowds. Back when I was a season ticket holder at Edinburgh, sometimes only 1,500 folk turned up and I can't even remember games being televised. So, a third pro team is probably more feasible these days.

Maybe one way to start building towards it would be a Caledonian (or wherever) Super 6/8 team that would lay the foundations and show that people would turn out to watch it and have the initial makings of a professional squad and coaching setup.

[I like neeps]

I think it's easier to set up a pro team when it was cheaper than it is now when you have to factor in 30 years of wage increases, facility improvements etc. Cutting the Reivers is in hindsight a huge mistake.

[Big D]

I think it's easier to set up a pro team when it was cheaper than it is now when you have to factor in 30 years of wage increases, facility improvements etc. Cutting the Reivers is in hindsight a huge mistake.

I am not sure it was a mistake, it was a financial drain and the Borders were never going to be fully supported to any significant extent. They started off with a bit of a bang but their last 5 years were pretty abject.

At the time the SRU were in massive debt and simply couldn't sustain a 3rd team that was underperforming to the extent they were. In fact truth be told they couldn't sustain 3 under performing teams. In 2003/04 the Scottish sides were 9/10/11 at the foot of the table. From then to when the Borders were done away with the highest finish for any Scottish sides was 5th out of 11 but the years after saw an immediate upturn at Glasgow and Edinburgh.

[Tichtheid]

I seem to recall when some of us went through costs before we got to around £10M for a pro team.

The SRU accounts show that all pro and international rugby costs circa £30M, so lets conservatively say £8M for a third pro team. Then you need a ground - Edinburgh struggle to fill a couple of taxis for supporters, the Borders never attracted that many, so... Aberdeen? Is there an appetite for it? It would take a long-term commitment to build a team there and get supporters coming in.

Then there is the issue of players, the topic was brought up due to lack of players in certain positions, now we need to find around 40 more players capable of playing in the URC.

This is why I've always favoured London Scottish as the third team, but that has gone by the bye, for the time being at least.
I don't really know what the solution is, I'm in favour of players moving on to English and French sides as that acts as a pressure release, but it isn't a solution either.

[I like neeps]

I think it's easier to set up a pro team when it was cheaper than it is now when you have to factor in 30 years of wage increases, facility improvements etc. Cutting the Reivers is in hindsight a huge mistake.

I am not sure it was a mistake, it was a financial drain and the Borders were never going to be fully supported to any significant extent. They started off with a bit of a bang but their last 5 years were pretty abject.

At the time the SRU were in massive debt and simply couldn't sustain a 3rd team that was underperforming to the extent they were. In fact truth be told they couldn't sustain 3 under performing teams. In 2003/04 the Scottish sides were 9/10/11 at the foot of the table. From then to when the Borders were done away with the highest finish for any Scottish sides was 5th out of 11 but the years after saw an immediate upturn at Glasgow and Edinburgh.

A third pro team makes the other two worse. Their depth is going to be gutted to find an extra 40 players.

(Which I'm all for, I'd still watch Edinburgh and Glasgow players if they only ever played SQ players).

[Big D]

I think it's easier to set up a pro team when it was cheaper than it is now when you have to factor in 30 years of wage increases, facility improvements etc. Cutting the Reivers is in hindsight a huge mistake.

I am not sure it was a mistake, it was a financial drain and the Borders were never going to be fully supported to any significant extent. They started off with a bit of a bang but their last 5 years were pretty abject.

At the time the SRU were in massive debt and simply couldn't sustain a 3rd team that was underperforming to the extent they were. In fact truth be told they couldn't sustain 3 under performing teams. In 2003/04 the Scottish sides were 9/10/11 at the foot of the table. From then to when the Borders were done away with the highest finish for any Scottish sides was 5th out of 11 but the years after saw an immediate upturn at Glasgow and Edinburgh.

A third pro team makes the other two worse. Their depth is going to be gutted to find an extra 40 players.

(Which I'm all for, I'd still watch Edinburgh and Glasgow players if they only ever played SQ players).

That is another reason it wouldn't work. Having 3 weak teams doesn't really provide any benefit either. Part of the reason the national side got better was the pro sides were playing better rugby and competing. Even when Edinburgh went through a rough patch Glasgow were good.

Edinburgh and Glasgow carry squads of 45 or so. They are unlikely to want to give up their best youth or fringe players and they are unlikely to want to move and get pumped every week.

[JM2K6]

English players often go to championship clubs (or ND1, or even below) to get regular game time against gnarled opposition. Might be an idea to encourage young Scottish frontrowers to do the same.

[Jock42]

Edinburgh and Glasgow carry squads of 45 or so. They are unlikely to want to give up their best youth or fringe players and they are unlikely to want to move and get pumped every week.

And yet this thread is littered with posts about players who never got a chance or who's career stalled until they moved club.

The Scotland team is having a bit of a purple patch but how long is that going to last? Without increasing the amount of pro players Scotland has it will come to an end. Even during this phase Scotland are still the also rans and won't be consistently competitive, like Ireland and Wales, with 2 teams.

I've got no idea how much it costs to run a pro team, or where the money would come from, but it's no surprise the SRU is only recently managing to drive things forward when this negativity is ingrained.

[robmatic]

English players often go to championship clubs (or ND1, or even below) to get regular game time against gnarled opposition. Might be an idea to encourage young Scottish frontrowers to do the same.

That probably would be beneficial. Although one of the ideas behind the new Super 6 competition is that the young pros can get farmed out from Edinburgh and Glasgow and play regularly at that kind of standard. It remains to be seen how that pans out though, and the Super 6 season is quite short.

[Jock42]

English players often go to championship clubs (or ND1, or even below) to get regular game time against gnarled opposition. Might be an idea to encourage young Scottish frontrowers to do the same.

That probably would be beneficial. Although one of the ideas behind the new Super 6 competition is that the young pros can get farmed out from Edinburgh and Glasgow and play regularly at that kind of standard. It remains to be seen how that pans out though, and the Super 6 season is quite short.

Will be more beneficial to the S6 when/if the cross border comp gets off the ground.

Were there English clubs slated to be involved?

[I like neeps]

English players often go to championship clubs (or ND1, or even below) to get regular game time against gnarled opposition. Might be an idea to encourage young Scottish frontrowers to do the same.

That probably would be beneficial. Although one of the ideas behind the new Super 6 competition is that the young pros can get farmed out from Edinburgh and Glasgow and play regularly at that kind of standard. It remains to be seen how that pans out though, and the Super 6 season is quite short.

This didn't happen though. Because the S6 as during preseason the props didn't get released very often. Or any of the players. Ollie Smith, Jordan Venter, Charlie Savala, Sam Grahamslaw, Murphy Walker were kept for preseason games.

Trying to get academy props into English sides is absolutely the right idea. We should be paying clubs to play them.

[robmatic]

English players often go to championship clubs (or ND1, or even below) to get regular game time against gnarled opposition. Might be an idea to encourage young Scottish frontrowers to do the same.

That probably would be beneficial. Although one of the ideas behind the new Super 6 competition is that the young pros can get farmed out from Edinburgh and Glasgow and play regularly at that kind of standard. It remains to be seen how that pans out though, and the Super 6 season is quite short.

This didn't happen though. Because the S6 as during preseason the props didn't get released very often. Or any of the players. Ollie Smith, Jordan Venter, Charlie Savala, Sam Grahamslaw, Murphy Walker were kept for preseason games.

Trying to get academy props into English sides is absolutely the right idea. We should be paying clubs to play them.

I don't understand why players weren't released more when there was basically no chance of them appearing in a matchday 23 in the URC in this first block of games.

[Big D]

Edinburgh and Glasgow carry squads of 45 or so. They are unlikely to want to give up their best youth or fringe players and they are unlikely to want to move and get pumped every week.

And yet this thread is littered with posts about players who never got a chance or who's career stalled until they moved club.

The Scotland team is having a bit of a purple patch but how long is that going to last? Without increasing the amount of pro players Scotland has it will come to an end. Even during this phase Scotland are still the also rans and won't be consistently competitive, like Ireland and Wales, with 2 teams.

I've got no idea how much it costs to run a pro team, or where the money would come from, but it's no surprise the SRU is only recently managing to drive things forward when this negativity is ingrained.

How is that statement negative rather than realistic? Edinburgh have used more than 30 players already this year, not including Watson, Toolis, Bofelli and Young who would all likely be in and around the squads when available. Combined with the younger payers they are managing like Muncaster, Harrison etc that is already close to 40 that they need and would want to keep. And 40 is around the number most clubs have for a squad. It has been widely admitted on this thread that a third team would be a "developmental" side, which is a euphemism for whipping boys. No one calls Connacht a "developmental" team now they are decent.

Negativity isn't ingrained at all. I have been involved in playing and running clubs and been to plenty of AGMs and an SGM, so I have seen, heard and shared concerns with committees from other clubs about the health of the game in Scotland when I was in committee roles. The SRU and its member clubs are about more than just the professional mens game. Clubs need help, school rugby needs help, the SRU need to try and stop the player drain around 16-18 year olds, the Woman's set up can and should get better and all that takes money. For the SRU to find the sums needed for a 3rd pro team would take funds from elsewhere and COVID will have hit clubs hard for many reasons.

There are other ways to get fringe players games for a fraction of the cost like exploring regular A games or starting a Celtic A league.

We keep trying to compare ourselves to Ireland and Wales when we have nowhere close to the same playing numbers, and in some cases finances. Wales have private owners of 3 of their regions, Ireland are loaded. We have 25% of the male playing numbers from U13 to adult and 75% of the numbers Wales do. They both have around double the number of male adult players. It doesn't mean we shouldn't try and find ways to get better and maintain levels but a punt costing the union 10's of millions over 4 or 5 years rather than investing that in the game elsewhere in the country isn't the best use of the little money the SRU has.

[Jock42]

7595b906a311af46e97096438d2f3604.jpg (22.7 KiB) Viewed 1133 times

[Yr Alban]

Edinburgh and Glasgow carry squads of 45 or so. They are unlikely to want to give up their best youth or fringe players and they are unlikely to want to move and get pumped every week.

And yet this thread is littered with posts about players who never got a chance or who's career stalled until they moved club.

The Scotland team is having a bit of a purple patch but how long is that going to last? Without increasing the amount of pro players Scotland has it will come to an end. Even during this phase Scotland are still the also rans and won't be consistently competitive, like Ireland and Wales, with 2 teams.

I've got no idea how much it costs to run a pro team, or where the money would come from, but it's no surprise the SRU is only recently managing to drive things forward when this negativity is ingrained.

Your first sentence is the key, for me anyway. One reason I raised this hoary old topic again is because the conversation had turned to why all of our props seem to be project players and imports. There are quite a few SQ players out there who left Scotland because they weren’t getting to play. Possibly not 40 of them, but if you add the players who are still in Scotland but not getting games (Chamberlain, for example), it probably comes to half a squad at least.

Is crowdfunding maybe an option? As a Hearts supporter, I can say that the Foundation of Hearts has been phenomenally successful at generating revenue - not only is the club fully fan owned, FoH funding paid for the bulk of the new Main Stand. Given the demographics of rugby supporters, I suspect that there’s quite a lot of people who can’t easily make it to games any more, but might be prevailed upon for a regular contribution?

[Biffer]

You say the SRU can’t afford to. I say the SRU can’t afford not to. We are stacking up problems for ourselves - sometimes we have three players in a squad competing for one jersey, when they all play for the same club. We’ve finally emerged from a slump that lasted about 15 years, and I for one never want to go back there again. I’m worried that only having two teams means we always run that risk.

I agree that getting a third team into the URC might be difficult now. Which is why we shouldn’t have left it this long.

So where does the money come from?

I honestly don't know. I'm no accountant. But the Welsh run 4 centrally controlled teams and aren't noticeably richer than we are. Surely we could manage 3?

WRU turnover is usually £80-90m. SRU turnover is usually £50-60m. So they're substantially better off.

[Yr Alban]

On a side issue - someone was lamenting the fact that Jack Dempsey was capped by Australia, given he has looked the part playing 8 for Glasgow. It’s just occurred to me that if WR vote to allow players to switch country after a 3-year layoff, he might be an early beneficiary. He’s got 14 caps and played for Oz in the last RWC - has he had a cap since then?

[charltom]

On a side issue - someone was lamenting the fact that Jack Dempsey was capped by Australia, given he has looked the part playing 8 for Glasgow. It’s just occurred to me that if WR vote to allow players to switch country after a 3-year layoff, he might be an early beneficiary. He’s got 14 caps and played for Oz in the last RWC - has he had a cap since then?

If I've understood correctly, either he or a parent would have to have been born in Scotland (in addition to the 3 year stand-down) and I don't think that's the case.

[Slick]

On a side issue - someone was lamenting the fact that Jack Dempsey was capped by Australia, given he has looked the part playing 8 for Glasgow. It’s just occurred to me that if WR vote to allow players to switch country after a 3-year layoff, he might be an early beneficiary. He’s got 14 caps and played for Oz in the last RWC - has he had a cap since then?

It was me that said it. I don’t think I could bear to go down that route to get players

[Yr Alban]

On a side issue - someone was lamenting the fact that Jack Dempsey was capped by Australia, given he has looked the part playing 8 for Glasgow. It’s just occurred to me that if WR vote to allow players to switch country after a 3-year layoff, he might be an early beneficiary. He’s got 14 caps and played for Oz in the last RWC - has he had a cap since then?

If I've understood correctly, either he or a parent would have to have been born in Scotland (in addition to the 3 year stand-down) and I don't think that's the case.

Ah, I thought it just excluded residential qualification. I’m not saying we should actually be trying to get players this way, merely that the possibility occurred to me

EDIT: Beeb says grandparents count. https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/59139431

[KingBlairhorn]

Its likely it won't pass anyway apparently. The likes of Georgia, Romania, Uruguay etc. believe this will actually enable the PIs to access a huge player base developed by other nations (NZ, Australia, France) rather than do the hard graft like them and invest in player pathways. Rightly or wrongly they will apparently likely vote on that basis, according to Tier 2 rugby twitter in any case.

Daniel Leo (who is CEO of PI player welfare) has proposed an amendment to only allow players to drop from Tier 1 to Tier 2 and not vice-versa. I don't think that is likely to be accepted, however it would preclude us from seeking any further players. The whole thing stinks to me of allowing Tier 1 nations (including Scotland) to have first dibs at players. Try to make it into a Tier 1 team and if you don't make it, you can go to a Tier 2 team. We would both benefit and be impacted by this in equal measure, but some of the lower ranked teams would potentially be left only with 2nd class players that know they can't make a Tier 1 squad.

[Jock42]

Knew Scott being in the squad was too good to be true, turning out for Leicester this weekend.

[KingBlairhorn]

Knew Scott being in the squad was too good to be true, turning out for Leicester this weekend.

Is it surprising though? He is a 12 who's biggest weakness is his passing, or a 13 who's not a particular defensive standout. He is a brilliant player but he's not what Toonie wants in his 12 or his 13.

[robmatic]

Knew Scott being in the squad was too good to be true, turning out for Leicester this weekend.

Is it surprising though? He is a 12 who's biggest weakness is his passing, or a 13 who's not a particular defensive standout. He is a brilliant player but he's not what Toonie wants in his 12 or his 13.

I'll admit I've not seen Leicester play recently but I thought he was regarded as a strong defender these days?