Concussion Legal Action Against WR

[shaggy]

Another study to be published tomorrow. Not good reading!

A single season of professional rugby could be enough to cause a decline in a player’s blood flow to the brain and cognitive function, according to a study.
The research, reported by the BBC, also suggests that repetitive contact events, rather than only concussions, incurred through rugby caused the declines seen in the players.
Researchers from the University of South Wales followed a professional team playing in the United Rugby Championship over the course of a season, testing the players pre-season, mid-season and post-season.
The peer-reviewed study, which will be published on Wednesday in the Journal of Experimental Physiology, found that over the season the squad experienced reduced blood flow to the brain and cognitive function – the ability to reason, remember, formulate ideas and perform mental gymnastics.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021 ... -suggests
https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/58369271

Where does this lead to for other contact sports such as boxing?

[BnM]

Must be very worrying if you're a former pro in the early days of professionalism.

[Slick]

Must be very worrying if you're a former pro in the early days of professionalism.

I guess you just have to think some people are more predisposed to it. It can’t be great for anyone, but not everyone is going to get dementia

[Line6 HXFX]

As I said watching rugby is now akin to watching dog fighting or paying an imbecile 200 quid to hit themselves on the head with a hammer...

Before anyone says it.... and makes a joke.. yes yes "I'll give you 300" etc.

But stepping back and big picture.. wtf are we supporting here..jesus.

How can anyone feel good about watching or supporting this sport?

"Look son, the young man is losing 15 IQ points for your entertainment and seriously risking early onset dementia, isn't he a hero"?


It is just so fucking wrong mun.

[GogLais]

As I said watching rugby is now akin to watching dog fighting or paying an imbecile 200 quid to hit themselves on the head with a hammer...

Before anyone says it.... and makes a joke.. yes yes "I'll give you 300" etc.

But stepping back and big picture.. wtf are we supporting here..jesus.

How can anyone feel good about watching or supporting this sport?

"Look son, the young man is losing 15 IQ points for your entertainment and seriously risking early onset dementia, isn't he a hero"?


It is just so fucking wrong mun.

I’ve probably said it before but wth - if you were designing a professional sport from scratch you wouldn’t end up with Rugby Union.

[Niegs]

Dr Tucker explores the idea that reducing subs = safer game on the idea that fresh players cause greater risk, but weighs that against the counter notion that fatigue is more of a factor.

https://podcasts.apple.com/za/podcast/s ... 0538592097

[Margin__Walker]

Carl Hayman

Another with early onset dementia (and CTE)

https://dylancleaver.substack.com/p/car ... tm_source=

[Gumboot]

Carl Hayman

Another with early onset dementia (and CTE)

https://dylancleaver.substack.com/p/car ... tm_source=

The poor bloke's only 41 years old.

Dementia killed my father in January, and I just moved my mother into a nursing home on Monday. She's fading fast, and for the past few months we've been having the same conversations over and over again every day. The new euthanasia law's coming too late for her. Dementia sucks balls.

[fishfoodie]

Carl Hayman

Another with early onset dementia (and CTE)

https://dylancleaver.substack.com/p/car ... tm_source=

The poor bloke's only 41 years old.

Dementia killed my father in January, and I just moved my mother into a nursing home on Monday. She's fading fast, and for the past few months we've been having the same conversations over and over again every day. The new euthanasia law's coming too late for her. Dementia sucks balls.

Take care of yourself buddy.

There's a lot of money, & research going into Dementia, & Brain injuries in general; but it's a generation late from our perspective , & our loved one; but people in their middle age today, will see treatments, that weren't available for their parents

I've a family member who's working her adult life in this; & ironically; the big boost in funding came because of the war in Iraq, & Afghanistan; & the number of soldiers who were surviving severe brain injuries; that would have been fatal previously. The US has been pouring money into research; & there are significant advances being made into; both the triage, for events like concussion; & a growing understanding of how to diagnose; & slow; the development of brain injuries.

[Calculon]

Carl Hayman

Another with early onset dementia (and CTE)

https://dylancleaver.substack.com/p/car ... tm_source=

Fuck Rugby, is it worth it? Don't see how you can prevent it other than turning it into touch rugby or drastically limiting the amount of games played.

[assfly]

Awful news, and I'm sure many more will be making similar announcements in the coming months.

[ScarfaceClaw]

Wonder if he can now use that as an excuse for why the slapped the fuck out of his wife.

[assfly]

Wonder if he can now use that as an excuse for why the slapped the fuck out of his wife.

Go on....

[Gumboot]

Carl Hayman

Another with early onset dementia (and CTE)

https://dylancleaver.substack.com/p/car ... tm_source=

The poor bloke's only 41 years old.

Dementia killed my father in January, and I just moved my mother into a nursing home on Monday. She's fading fast, and for the past few months we've been having the same conversations over and over again every day. The new euthanasia law's coming too late for her. Dementia sucks balls.

Take care of yourself buddy.

There's a lot of money, & research going into Dementia, & Brain injuries in general; but it's a generation late from our perspective , & our loved one; but people in their middle age today, will see treatments, that weren't available for their parents

I've a family member who's working her adult life in this; & ironically; the big boost in funding came because of the war in Iraq, & Afghanistan; & the number of soldiers who were surviving severe brain injuries; that would have been fatal previously. The US has been pouring money into research; & there are significant advances being made into; both the triage, for events like concussion; & a growing understanding of how to diagnose; & slow; the development of brain injuries.

Cheers.

[Brazil]

Wonder if he can now use that as an excuse for why the slapped the fuck out of his wife.

Well increased aggressiveness is a symptom of dementia, and he's cited it along with alcohol abuse and erratic behaviour in his statement.

[Grandpa]

Wonder if he can now use that as an excuse for why the slapped the fuck out of his wife.

He did. He has said the headaches and brain fog screwed him over and turned him into a different person in recent years... citing his behaviour change etc...

[sockwithaticket]

Carl Hayman

Another with early onset dementia (and CTE)

https://dylancleaver.substack.com/p/car ... tm_source=

Fuck Rugby, is it worth it? Don't see how you can prevent it other than turning it into touch rugby or drastically limiting the amount of games played.

For the moment at least, all those coming forward are from the a generation of professionals where head contact was treated as insignificant. Perhaps our current protocols and awareness won't make any difference to a game based on people violently colliding, but there are things in place now that simply weren't for a player of Hayman's vintage.

[Calculon]

Carl Hayman

Another with early onset dementia (and CTE)

https://dylancleaver.substack.com/p/car ... tm_source=

Fuck Rugby, is it worth it? Don't see how you can prevent it other than turning it into touch rugby or drastically limiting the amount of games played.

For the moment at least, all those coming forward are from the a generation of professionals where head contact was treated as insignificant. Perhaps our current protocols and awareness won't make any difference to a game based on people violently colliding, but there are things in place now that simply weren't for a player of Hayman's vintage.

Yeah, just think it's not so much the fairly rare violent head contact but the repeated head jarring that takes place throughout the game

[sockwithaticket]

Fuck Rugby, is it worth it? Don't see how you can prevent it other than turning it into touch rugby or drastically limiting the amount of games played.

For the moment at least, all those coming forward are from the a generation of professionals where head contact was treated as insignificant. Perhaps our current protocols and awareness won't make any difference to a game based on people violently colliding, but there are things in place now that simply weren't for a player of Hayman's vintage.

Yeah, just think it's not so much the fairly rare violent head contact but the repeated head jarring that takes place throughout the game

I was talking about general contact rather than specifically head because, yes, the head being jarred is sufficient. The way the game is now, every contact looks pretty violent to me and I'm sure heads are being rattled constantly. It remains to be seen whether changes over the last decade or so will be enough to mitigate the effects and prevent the issues the first wave of pros are now experiencing.

[Gumboot]

Helmets?

[sockwithaticket]

Helmets?

Do nothing to stop the brain rattling around inside the head. In fact, if anything, the evidence from the NFL is that they players behave more recklessly on the field because they believe, falsely, that they're more protected.

[Gumboot]

Helmets?

Do nothing to stop the brain rattling around inside the head. In fact, if anything, the evidence from the NFL is that they players behave more recklessly on the field because they believe, falsely, that they're more protected.

The NFL is as violent as rugby but has helmets.

[sockwithaticket]

Helmets?

Do nothing to stop the brain rattling around inside the head. In fact, if anything, the evidence from the NFL is that they players behave more recklessly on the field because they believe, falsely, that they're more protected.

The NFL is as violent but has helmets.

It's mostly tradition/organisational intertia at this point. They do provide some additional protection against facial injuries, teeth getting knocked out etc, but not to the extent that helmets would be introduced if they weren't already in use. The idea that they can protect against brain trauma has long since been put to bed.

[SaintK]

Wonder if he can now use that as an excuse for why the slapped the fuck out of his wife.

He did. He has said the headaches and brain fog screwed him over and turned him into a different person in recent years... citing his behaviour change etc...

My mate worked with Hayman twice a month when he was at Pau. Said he was a really nice guy to work with but absolutely out of control when he'd had a drink. There was also a lot of talk amongst the players how much he was "juicing" in the gym as well which wasn't helping his massive mood swings.

[Gumboot]

Do nothing to stop the brain rattling around inside the head. In fact, if anything, the evidence from the NFL is that they players behave more recklessly on the field because they believe, falsely, that they're more protected.

The NFL is as violent but has helmets.

It's mostly tradition/organisational intertia at this point. They do provide some additional protection against facial injuries, teeth getting knocked out etc, but not to the extent that helmets would be introduced if they weren't already in use. The idea that they can protect against brain trauma has long since been put to bed.

Cheers, didn't know that.

[Ymx]

Why are they going after world rugby and not say the clubs they worked for?

[JM2K6]

Because the clubs aren't responsible for the sport, its laws, and its governing framework.

[inactionman]

Because the clubs aren't responsible for the sport, its laws, and its governing framework.

I'm not sure that gives them a free pass, every employer has as duty of care to employees, but yes, ultimately the governing body should be accountable.

I posted this on the old board, but it's an example of an employer failing their duty of care so miserably that I'd have thought they'd be open for prosecution, let alone litigation. I saw this live and was incredulous, it's just awful. World Rugby unquestionably needed to get a grip on this, but what Toulouse did was unforgivable - within the regulation of the time or no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg

I appreciate we've (thankfully) moved on from this, and the question is more around how we adjust the sport to reduce risks of long term damage from cumulative brain injury, but for historic cases I'd have thought there's quite a few clubs and coaches who are wide open for court action.

[Big D]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

[fishfoodie]

Why are they going after world rugby and not say the clubs they worked for?

The honest answer is, deep pockets.

[Ymx]

Think the clubs pockets are fairly deep. But I guess it creates a common enemy for the affected players

Although it’s a bit like trying to sue a regulator for not having strict enough regulations.

[JM2K6]

Because the clubs aren't responsible for the sport, its laws, and its governing framework.

I'm not sure that gives them a free pass, every employer has as duty of care to employees, but yes, ultimately the governing body should be accountable.

I posted this on the old board, but it's an example of an employer failing their duty of care so miserably that I'd have thought they'd be open for prosecution, let alone litigation. I saw this live and was incredulous, it's just awful. World Rugby unquestionably needed to get a grip on this, but what Toulouse did was unforgivable - within the regulation of the time or no.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrWDOZmhqmg

I appreciate we've (thankfully) moved on from this, and the question is more around how we adjust the sport to reduce risks of long term damage from cumulative brain injury, but for historic cases I'd have thought there's quite a few clubs and coaches who are wide open for court action.

I do think in individual cases like that, the club should be held responsible.

But the whole point of this is that the problem was endemic within the sport, the governing body was not interested in the research, the laws didn't prioritise player health, and the professional game as a whole is much more dangerous than it should be. That's not the fault of individual clubs.

[Niegs]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

It's been a couple of years since I've properly coached, but at the time we weren't allowed HIAs at all, even though our club had two athletic therapy students at every game getting their work experience hours (and their supervisor usually also putting in a shift or working with one, but not all teams on the day).

I think the argument was that no one had 'proper' medical staff or that the league hadn't mandated bylaws for it. And, yes, "when it doubt, sit them out" is the best way forward, but we had a policy of having those trainers run on to check people if they showed even the most minute of symptoms, like slow to get up, that often aren't concussion but old/frustrated/tired man dragging his ass. Putting something in place, with the potential for it to be abused (which was the excuse most often given as to why we didn't have HIA subs), I think, would have been better than players knowing they couldn't have a sub to get checked, so they just stay on and 'push through'.

I really tried to say that no game is worth it and could cite examples of friends I have with long term effects of concussion (and the poor high school student who died in Ontario because of second impact syndrome, for whom the law around education and protocols is now named).

[Slick]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

My initial reaction to this would be that the risk is greatly minimised by the fact that they are just not in contact anywhere near as much as the pro's. Game on Saturday and 1 or 2 training sessions a week - the most recent suggestion seems to be it's the mini knocks from contact in training that is the real issue.

In saying that, my dad had early onset Alzheimer's and my mum is 100% convinced it was due to a few major concussions when he played rugby.

[Big D]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

It's been a couple of years since I've properly coached, but at the time we weren't allowed HIAs at all, even though our club had two athletic therapy students at every game getting their work experience hours (and their supervisor usually also putting in a shift or working with one, but not all teams on the day).

I think the argument was that no one had 'proper' medical staff or that the league hadn't mandated bylaws for it. And, yes, "when it doubt, sit them out" is the best way forward, but we had a policy of having those trainers run on to check people if they showed even the most minute of symptoms, like slow to get up, that often aren't concussion but old/frustrated/tired man dragging his ass. Putting something in place, with the potential for it to be abused (which was the excuse most often given as to why we didn't have HIA subs), I think, would have been better than players knowing they couldn't have a sub to get checked, so they just stay on and 'push through'.

I really tried to say that no game is worth it and could cite examples of friends I have with long term effects of concussion (and the poor high school student who died in Ontario because of second impact syndrome, for whom the law around education and protocols is now named).

When my shoulder injury finally won, I did a year coaching our 2's, would still be coaching but life gets in the way. We had the very basic cognitive tests and I subbed a few guys over the 6 months because they took a head knock but I have seen other coaches not. There are also the non obvious concussive hits too which we are ill equipped to spot.

I have been speaking to a couple of old team mates who now coach, seconds and thirds are struggling to fill their teams (some firsts too), how is a coach going to bring a player off who might be concussed and drop his team to 14. Some will and take the heat but others wont.

[Slick]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

It's been a couple of years since I've properly coached, but at the time we weren't allowed HIAs at all, even though our club had two athletic therapy students at every game getting their work experience hours (and their supervisor usually also putting in a shift or working with one, but not all teams on the day).

I think the argument was that no one had 'proper' medical staff or that the league hadn't mandated bylaws for it. And, yes, "when it doubt, sit them out" is the best way forward, but we had a policy of having those trainers run on to check people if they showed even the most minute of symptoms, like slow to get up, that often aren't concussion but old/frustrated/tired man dragging his ass. Putting something in place, with the potential for it to be abused (which was the excuse most often given as to why we didn't have HIA subs), I think, would have been better than players knowing they couldn't have a sub to get checked, so they just stay on and 'push through'.

I really tried to say that no game is worth it and could cite examples of friends I have with long term effects of concussion (and the poor high school student who died in Ontario because of second impact syndrome, for whom the law around education and protocols is now named).

When my shoulder injury finally won, I did a year coaching our 2's, would still be coaching but life gets in the way. We had the very basic cognitive tests and I subbed a few guys over the 6 months because they took a head knock but I have seen other coaches not. There are also the non obvious concussive hits too which we are ill equipped to spot.

I have been speaking to a couple of old team mates who now coach, seconds and thirds are struggling to fill their teams (some firsts too), how is a coach going to bring a player off who might be concussed and drop his team to 14. Some will and take the heat but others wont.

Back in the day I seem to remember you would only get subbed off if you really were in a state, but my club was pretty strict about taking a couple of weeks off if you had any concussion symptoms in the bar after.

[Big D]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

My initial reaction to this would be that the risk is greatly minimised by the fact that they are just not in contact anywhere near as much as the pro's. Game on Saturday and 1 or 2 training sessions a week - the most recent suggestion seems to be it's the mini knocks from contact in training that is the real issue.

In saying that, my dad had early onset Alzheimer's and my mum is 100% convinced it was due to a few major concussions when he played rugby.

I am genuinely not sure. I know few guys who feel a step slower and claim it's their head rather than their age.

The risk will be lower for grass roots, but 60-90min full whack contact training on a Tuesday, rucking and tackling on a Thursday and then a game on Saturday as it was back then is still a lot of contact over a season. Not sure how old you are Slick, but when I was 15/16 some of us would train for the U16s on a Tuesday/Thursday at 5-5.30, join the Under 18s and seniors from 7 on those nights and play school rugby on a Saturday morning, under 18s on a Saturday afternoon and U16s on a Sunday.

Granted a lower level will be lower paced but even in regional leagues in Scotland there are some guys shifting weights Monday/Wednesday/Friday probably within 20% of what the professionals are. There are still some big collisions. The risk will be lower, but I am not sure it is that much lower where it isn't something to be concerned about.

[Big D]

It's been a couple of years since I've properly coached, but at the time we weren't allowed HIAs at all, even though our club had two athletic therapy students at every game getting their work experience hours (and their supervisor usually also putting in a shift or working with one, but not all teams on the day).

I think the argument was that no one had 'proper' medical staff or that the league hadn't mandated bylaws for it. And, yes, "when it doubt, sit them out" is the best way forward, but we had a policy of having those trainers run on to check people if they showed even the most minute of symptoms, like slow to get up, that often aren't concussion but old/frustrated/tired man dragging his ass. Putting something in place, with the potential for it to be abused (which was the excuse most often given as to why we didn't have HIA subs), I think, would have been better than players knowing they couldn't have a sub to get checked, so they just stay on and 'push through'.

I really tried to say that no game is worth it and could cite examples of friends I have with long term effects of concussion (and the poor high school student who died in Ontario because of second impact syndrome, for whom the law around education and protocols is now named).

When my shoulder injury finally won, I did a year coaching our 2's, would still be coaching but life gets in the way. We had the very basic cognitive tests and I subbed a few guys over the 6 months because they took a head knock but I have seen other coaches not. There are also the non obvious concussive hits too which we are ill equipped to spot.

I have been speaking to a couple of old team mates who now coach, seconds and thirds are struggling to fill their teams (some firsts too), how is a coach going to bring a player off who might be concussed and drop his team to 14. Some will and take the heat but others wont.

Back in the day I seem to remember you would only get subbed off if you really were in a state, but my club was pretty strict about taking a couple of weeks off if you had any concussion symptoms in the bar after.

My club was too, when they could see something wasn't right but plenty simply went home before showing symptoms. Truthfully, many wouldn't have known what the symptoms were and confused hangover with concussion.

[Slick]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

My initial reaction to this would be that the risk is greatly minimised by the fact that they are just not in contact anywhere near as much as the pro's. Game on Saturday and 1 or 2 training sessions a week - the most recent suggestion seems to be it's the mini knocks from contact in training that is the real issue.

In saying that, my dad had early onset Alzheimer's and my mum is 100% convinced it was due to a few major concussions when he played rugby.

I am genuinely not sure. I know few guys who feel a step slower and claim it's their head rather than their age.

The risk will be lower for grass roots, but 60-90min full whack contact training on a Tuesday, rucking and tackling on a Thursday and then a game on Saturday as it was back then is still a lot of contact over a season. Not sure how old you are Slick, but when I was 15/16 some of us would train for the U16s on a Tuesday/Thursday at 5-5.30, join the Under 18s and seniors from 7 on those nights and play school rugby on a Saturday morning, under 18s on a Saturday afternoon and U16s on a Sunday.

Granted a lower level will be lower paced but even in regional leagues in Scotland there are some guys shifting weights Monday/Wednesday/Friday probably within 20% of what the professionals are. There are still some big collisions. The risk will be lower, but I am not sure it is that much lower where it isn't something to be concerned by.

Yeah, I definitely know guys who do suffer from the effects. I'm 47 and did similar, would be training most nights with one group or another and usually played a minimum of 2 games a week. I can remember specific head knocks I had and it does worry me a bit.

It's a pretty fundamental question for the sport really. if there is a small chance and you are just a bit unlucky then for the vast majority the risk is worth it for all the enormous upsides rugby brings. If there is a larger risk than we knew about then the balance start to tip.

[Brazil]

There is a lot of talk about the pro game and understandably so. But I really worry about those of us who played at a lower level. Even at the real grass roots level guys are bigger and stronger than they were, I am mid 30's but within my playing career I saw plenty guys knocked loopy or out cold and get back up and play on and those were just the obvious times.

The conditioning of players has increased massively right through the game, as has the amount of contact. Apocryphally, it also seems there's a lot of juicing going on, and I wouldn't be surprised if we started to see consequences for lower level players further down the line. Then again, I don't know what training looks like for amateur clubs nowadays, and if they're reducing contact training, then that should mitigate the risk to some extent.