So, coronavirus...

[Slick]

Bozo's £10bn "world beating" contract tracing systern run by his crony appointee Lady Harding still failing miserably

Blackburn with Darwen council, in Lancashire, set up its own virus-hunting team after the national system failed to reach hundreds of its most vulnerable residents.
Dominic Harrison, the council’s director of public health, said the government programme was “simply not tracing enough cases and contacts fast enough”.
The move reflects growing frustration among local health officials with the national test-and-trace system, which was launched in May as a central plank of the strategy to ease England out of lockdown. The NHS system, which is run by the former TalkTalk executive Dido Harding, involves more than 20,000 contact tracers employed by private firms such as Serco and Sitel.

Well there we go, the exact area I was talking about. Who are these vulnerable residents and why are they vulnerable? Why is the system not working there when it is working in other areas? This is a global pandemic, surely we can cut the crap.

[JM2K6]

Bozo's £10bn "world beating" contract tracing systern run by his crony appointee Lady Harding still failing miserably

Blackburn with Darwen council, in Lancashire, set up its own virus-hunting team after the national system failed to reach hundreds of its most vulnerable residents.
Dominic Harrison, the council’s director of public health, said the government programme was “simply not tracing enough cases and contacts fast enough”.
The move reflects growing frustration among local health officials with the national test-and-trace system, which was launched in May as a central plank of the strategy to ease England out of lockdown. The NHS system, which is run by the former TalkTalk executive Dido Harding, involves more than 20,000 contact tracers employed by private firms such as Serco and Sitel.

Well there we go, the exact area I was talking about. Who are these vulnerable residents and why are they vulnerable? Why is the system not working there when it is working in other areas? This is a global pandemic, surely we can cut the crap.

We know who the most vulnerable people are. Older people with underlying health conditions. The same people Boris wants to 'shield'. I don't think there's a direct correlation between your two posts here.

I also don't know if you can say it's working in other areas. Is there any evidence for that?

[Slick]

Bozo's £10bn "world beating" contract tracing systern run by his crony appointee Lady Harding still failing miserably

Well there we go, the exact area I was talking about. Who are these vulnerable residents and why are they vulnerable? Why is the system not working there when it is working in other areas? This is a global pandemic, surely we can cut the crap.

We know who the most vulnerable people are. Older people with underlying health conditions. The same people Boris wants to 'shield'. I don't think there's a direct correlation between your two posts here.

I also don't know if you can say it's working in other areas. Is there any evidence for that?

In this particular area, where 79% of the cases are Asian, the most vulnerable are very specifically older Asian people with underlying health conditions. Why on earth can't you bring yourself to say that?

[JM2K6]

Well there we go, the exact area I was talking about. Who are these vulnerable residents and why are they vulnerable? Why is the system not working there when it is working in other areas? This is a global pandemic, surely we can cut the crap.

We know who the most vulnerable people are. Older people with underlying health conditions. The same people Boris wants to 'shield'. I don't think there's a direct correlation between your two posts here.

I also don't know if you can say it's working in other areas. Is there any evidence for that?

In this particular area, where 79% of the cases are Asian, the most vulnerable are very specifically older Asian people with underlying health conditions. Why on earth can't you bring yourself to say that?

It's really not a question of "bringing myself to say that". Anyone in that area who's older and has underlying health conditions is vulnerable. The disease doesn't just affect BAME people. I'm just questioning the relevance in this particular case. You seem to be hinting at some sort of political correctness issue (and sorry if I've the wrong end of the stick here), but I don't see how it can possibly be one. The track and trace stuff has been a shitshow from the beginning, and while it's certainly true that in some areas the majority of vulnerable people will be BAME, I just can't quite connect the dots to any sort of point being made.

Do you think that the track and trace is only failing BAME people or something? I'm struggling to work out what you're getting at.

[Slick]

We know who the most vulnerable people are. Older people with underlying health conditions. The same people Boris wants to 'shield'. I don't think there's a direct correlation between your two posts here.

I also don't know if you can say it's working in other areas. Is there any evidence for that?

In this particular area, where 79% of the cases are Asian, the most vulnerable are very specifically older Asian people with underlying health conditions. Why on earth can't you bring yourself to say that?

It's really not a question of "bringing myself to say that". Anyone in that area who's older and has underlying health conditions is vulnerable. The disease doesn't just affect BAME people. I'm just questioning the relevance in this particular case. You seem to be hinting at some sort of political correctness issue (and sorry if I've the wrong end of the stick here), but I don't see how it can possibly be one. The track and trace stuff has been a shitshow from the beginning, and while it's certainly true that in some areas the majority of vulnerable people will be BAME, I just can't quite connect the dots to any sort of point being made.

Do you think that the track and trace is only failing BAME people or something? I'm struggling to work out what you're getting at.

Christ, you are as frustrating as Bimbo in your own way.

Apologies for hinting, because yes, I am saying it is a politcal correctness issue and it is killing people. Of course it doesn't just affect BAME people but, and if there is anyone on the bored who would know this it's you, there has been weeks of reports that it is disproportionaly affecting BAME people. I don't think COVID is racist so why is affecting BAME folk more? Why won't anyone talk about it in the middle of a pandemic. It's insane.

[Raggs]

In this particular area, where 79% of the cases are Asian, the most vulnerable are very specifically older Asian people with underlying health conditions. Why on earth can't you bring yourself to say that?

It's really not a question of "bringing myself to say that". Anyone in that area who's older and has underlying health conditions is vulnerable. The disease doesn't just affect BAME people. I'm just questioning the relevance in this particular case. You seem to be hinting at some sort of political correctness issue (and sorry if I've the wrong end of the stick here), but I don't see how it can possibly be one. The track and trace stuff has been a shitshow from the beginning, and while it's certainly true that in some areas the majority of vulnerable people will be BAME, I just can't quite connect the dots to any sort of point being made.

Do you think that the track and trace is only failing BAME people or something? I'm struggling to work out what you're getting at.

Christ, you are as frustrating as Bimbo in your own way.

Apologies for hinting, because yes, I am saying it is a politcal correctness issue and it is killing people. Of course it doesn't just affect BAME people but, and if there is anyone on the bored who would know this it's you, there has been weeks of reports that it is disproportionaly affecting BAME people. I don't think COVID is racist so why is affecting BAME folk more? Why won't anyone talk about it in the middle of a pandemic. It's insane.

Why won't anyone talk about it? It was widely reported on when the differences first came to light. The first 10 doctors/nurses were all BAME, and it was investigated. The reason JMK is now trying to work out exactly what it is you're saying, is because it was widely reported on quite a while back, why you're now raising it in such a weird manner, obviously not trying to say what you're really thinking.

So please, put us out of our misery, and state exactly what it is you're trying to get at.

EDIT - https://www.theguardian.com/society/202 ... octors-bma first article I can easily find, from the 10th of April. No one talking about it my arse.

[JM2K6]

I can understand why you might think I'm being cute or something but I am being on the level with you here. I don't actually understand the exact point you're trying to make, and you being coy for whatever reason isn't helping.

There are two questions.

1) Why does COVID-19 affect BAME disproportionately? No-one knows for sure, and there's been loads of articles written with lots of different suggestions, eg https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-52219070 and https://www.channel4.com/news/factcheck ... ies-harder and https://www.theguardian.com/world/2020/ ... f-covid-19 - so it's clear that it is something that is being discussed, but also not yet answered. There's no political correctness here that I can see. People ARE talking about it, quite obviously, and I genuinely don't understand why you think they're not.

2) Why is it important that Darwen specifically mention the ethnicity of its vulnerable residents when talking about the failings of the track and trace program? I do not see the relevance. Yes, BAME are more at risk - but what's important is that they're vulnerable, which is what's acknowledged. Why does it matter that their race be mentioned? It's not like the disease only affects BAME people. I do not understand why this is important to you, and I'd like to understand why.

[Slick]

OK, since both of you seem to be genuinely confused about what I'm saying I'll have to accept I'm not being clear, fair enough.

I'm not saying no one is talking about COVID seemingly having a higher mortality rate amongst BAME folk, as you say that has been discussed for some time. I'm saying that the communities at the heart of most of the recent spikes and lockdowns are Asian. As I've said, there seems to be a number of reasons why this is the case but at the national level no one seems to want to come out and say it - even though none of them seem particularly contentious to me. I think this is an idiotic way to progress.

[JM2K6]

What are these reasons?

[Slick]

What are these reasons?

As I said above, overcrowded housing, working in front line jobs, working in shit conditions, lack of understanding of the restrictions, not giving a shit. These of course are not exclusive to Asian communities but perhaps more prevalent.

[Raggs]

What are these reasons?

As I said above, overcrowded housing, working in front line jobs, working in shit conditions, lack of understanding of the restrictions, not giving a shit. These of course are not exclusive to Asian communities but perhaps more prevalent.

Not giving a shit would surely also lead to them not being tested? Wouldn't giving a big shit, and being very responsible when finding out they've been in contact with someone, also lead to a larger than expected number?

[JM2K6]

What are these reasons?

As I said above, overcrowded housing, working in front line jobs, working in shit conditions, lack of understanding of the restrictions, not giving a shit. These of course are not exclusive to Asian communities but perhaps more prevalent.

I dunno about "not giving a shit" being specific to BAME communities! Ditto lack of understanding - there's been plenty of reports of just how confused people are by the government's guidance and the contradictory information being given out by various people, often on the same day.

So that leaves us with... they're often poor and so end up doing poor people's jobs and living in crowded accommodation, and they're also over-represented in the medical communities. Those may all be valid reasons. But, and this is where you and I diverge, I don't understand why it's important that we talk about this when a council talks about the gross failures of the track and trace system. What possible difference does it make? Why is it important that we acknowledge that poor people are more likely to be vulnerable if we're not doing anything to fix it?

So you can see my confusion here.

[Slick]

What are these reasons?

As I said above, overcrowded housing, working in front line jobs, working in shit conditions, lack of understanding of the restrictions, not giving a shit. These of course are not exclusive to Asian communities but perhaps more prevalent.

Not giving a shit would surely also lead to them not being tested? Wouldn't giving a big shit, and being very responsible when finding out they've been in contact with someone, also lead to a larger than expected number?

Yes, yes it would!

[Slick]

What are these reasons?

As I said above, overcrowded housing, working in front line jobs, working in shit conditions, lack of understanding of the restrictions, not giving a shit. These of course are not exclusive to Asian communities but perhaps more prevalent.

I dunno about "not giving a shit" being specific to BAME communities! Ditto lack of understanding - there's been plenty of reports of just how confused people are by the government's guidance and the contradictory information being given out by various people, often on the same day.

So that leaves us with... they're often poor and so end up doing poor people's jobs and living in crowded accommodation, and they're also over-represented in the medical communities. Those may all be valid reasons. But, and this is where you and I diverge, I don't understand why it's important that we talk about this when a council talks about the gross failures of the track and trace system. What possible difference does it make? Why is it important that we acknowledge that poor people are more likely to be vulnerable if we're not doing anything to fix it?

So you can see my confusion here.

My original 3 or 4 posts didn't mention track and trace, I just responded to something Saint posted and you latched onto that.

Anyway, my original interest in this came from a piece from Matthew Syed (a British Asian) who was scathing of the fact that in his opinion, and that of many community leaders, political correctness was preventing conversations about the ethnic variation in transmissions which was putting those very communities at most risk - "by tiptoeing around racial sensibilities, it will, I fear, cost lives"

But we can just put this one down to another subject you know more about that the people actually living it.

[JM2K6]

I'm bending over backwards to make this a neutral conversation and you're being a bit of a dick.

I replied to the post where you explicitly complained about the lack of talking about ethnicity with regards to the comments made about the failings of track & trace. That's what this current thread of conversation is about. If Syed has a point to make about it, great! It means people are talking about it. But, as it's behind a paywall, I can't read the article and therefore can't tell if he's actually saying anything concrete about the cultural differences.

Fancy posting the article so we can read it?

(I'd also say you never answered the question as to why you believe the system works elsewhere but not in that specific location: all the feedback about track & trace has been that it's a disaster)

[Un Pilier]

I don’t think Slick is being a dick, particularly, and believe that his point that these issues need to be openly discussed, with goodwill on all sides I would add, is a valid one. The fact that he doesn’t have all the answers (who does?) shouldn’t mean he can’t ask relevant questions.

I don’t know whether track and trace is more or less effective with any particular section of the community, whether that be by age profile or any other categorisation that they use. What I do know is if they understand the reasons for any differences they are more likely to come up with solutions. Is it because everyone assumes they are cold calls? Are there language issues? Are the apparently selfish cohort just saying fuck it?

It needs to be understood and addressed. Why shut down a perfectly valid discussion?

[CM11]

The risk of highlighting outbreaks along racial lines is that it will increase racial divides. If you come out and point blank say that the reason Manchester is locked down is because of the BAME community then what happens?

It's one thing highlighting they're more at risk, quite another delving into the class/racial divide amongst the cases (rather than deaths).

[Longshanks]

The risk of highlighting outbreaks along racial lines is that it will increase racial divides. If you come out and point blank say that the reason Manchester is locked down is because of the BAME community then what happens?

It's one thing highlighting they're more at risk, quite another delving into the class/racial divide amongst the cases (rather than deaths).

But sadly, there is clearly an issue, just because it might offend doesn't change that. Of course people using these outbreaks to justify racial prejudice is scum of the earth stuff.

[Raggs]

The risk of highlighting outbreaks along racial lines is that it will increase racial divides. If you come out and point blank say that the reason Manchester is locked down is because of the BAME community then what happens?

It's one thing highlighting they're more at risk, quite another delving into the class/racial divide amongst the cases (rather than deaths).

But sadly, there is clearly an issue, just because it might offend doesn't change that. Of course people using these outbreaks to justify racial prejudice is scum of the earth stuff.

And if that issue is that in the knowledge that they're more vulnerable, they're also far more likely to take it seriously and get tested? Not really an issue is it?

[JM2K6]

I don’t think Slick is being a dick, particularly, and believe that his point that these issues need to be openly discussed, with goodwill on all sides I would add, is a valid one. The fact that he doesn’t have all the answers (who does?) shouldn’t mean he can’t ask relevant questions.

This:

But we can just put this one down to another subject you know more about that the people actually living it.

is 100% being a dick.

I don’t know whether track and trace is more or less effective with any particular section of the community, whether that be by age profile or any other categorisation that they use. What I do know is if they understand the reasons for any differences they are more likely to come up with solutions. Is it because everyone assumes they are cold calls? Are there language issues? Are the apparently selfish cohort just saying fuck it?

It needs to be understood and addressed. Why shut down a perfectly valid discussion?

No-one is shutting it down. I'm asking for actual details rather than coy innuendo. I swear it's really difficult to have the discussion that people demand if everyone refuses to actually say what they mean.

[Biffer]

Well, that's a page and a half of prissy bitchfight I'm glad I won't have to read again.

[Slick]

I don’t think Slick is being a dick, particularly, and believe that his point that these issues need to be openly discussed, with goodwill on all sides I would add, is a valid one. The fact that he doesn’t have all the answers (who does?) shouldn’t mean he can’t ask relevant questions.

This:

But we can just put this one down to another subject you know more about that the people actually living it.

is 100% being a dick.

I don’t know whether track and trace is more or less effective with any particular section of the community, whether that be by age profile or any other categorisation that they use. What I do know is if they understand the reasons for any differences they are more likely to come up with solutions. Is it because everyone assumes they are cold calls? Are there language issues? Are the apparently selfish cohort just saying fuck it?

It needs to be understood and addressed. Why shut down a perfectly valid discussion?

No-one is shutting it down. I'm asking for actual details rather than coy innuendo. I swear it's really difficult to have the discussion that people demand if everyone refuses to actually say what they mean.

FFS. I've given you actual details of what I'm saying. I've even accepted I might not have been clear and repeated them several times. There is no coy innuendo, none. Everyone else seems to have got it. I don't know what more you want.

Actually, that's a lie, I know exactly what you want. You want some kind of "GOTCHA RACIST" moment because you can't understand that you can talk about race without being racist and actually it is really important to do so.

Anyway, here is a piece from the BBC this morning from a BAME chap talking about BAME people and COVID.

People from ethnic minority backgrounds in Britain "face greater barriers" when trying to protect themselves from coronavirus, according to a report.

The Runnymede Trust, a race equality think-tank, said Bangladeshi and black African people were most vulnerable.

Jobs, households and using public transport are all said to be risk factors.

The government said it is working to help ethnic minorities, who have been disproportionately harmed by Covid-19.

There is growing evidence that people from those communities are at greater risk from the virus.

The Runnymede Trust also warned important public safety messages aimed at reducing transmission were currently not reaching all black and minority ethnic (BAME) communities.


The survey of 2,585 adults in Great Britain, including 750 from BAME backgrounds, suggests ethnic minorities are "over-exposed" because they are more likely to live in multigenerational households, which can reduce the ability to self-isolate and shield from the virus.

Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Black African groups are said to be the most likely to live in "overcrowded housing".

And more than a quarter of people from BAME backgrounds classified themselves as a "key worker" (28%), compared with 23% of white British people questioned in the same survey.
'We are not in the same boat'

BAME key workers were also more likely to report feeling as if they had faced additional risks through not having adequate personal protective equipment (PPE).

The survey found those from ethnic minority backgrounds were also more likely to say they had used public transport during lockdown - which could increase the chance of transmission because they are enclosed spaces.

The Runnymede Trust said all these factors helped to explain why certain parts of society had been hardest hit during the pandemic.

"While we have all faced the same storm, we are not in the same boat." said Dr Zubaida Haque, interim director of the trust.

"Our findings explain why we are seeing outbreaks in places like Leicester, densely populated areas with multigenerational households. Many people are also struggling to pay bills so have to leave their homes to work.

"Temporary housing and financial support should be made available to facilitate those who need to self-isolate."

The report also found ethnic minorities are less likely to know about government messaging like "Stay Home" and economic measures like the furlough scheme.

It recommends the NHS Test and Trace system needs to be better at reaching the most vulnerable, including working closer with local authorities who already have trusted relationships with their communities.

A statement from the Department for Health said: "We know that Covid-19 has had a disproportionate effect on people from Bame backgrounds, and, following the findings of the Public Health England report, the equalities minister is now taking forward vital work to tackle these disparities and protect our most vulnerable communities from the impact of the virus."

[MungoMan]

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Thread Englished.

[mat the expat]

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Thread Englished.

I have Aussie Passport

[JM2K6]

FFS. I've given you actual details of what I'm saying. I've even accepted I might not have been clear and repeated them several times. There is no coy innuendo, none. Everyone else seems to have got it. I don't know what more you want.

Actually, that's a lie, I know exactly what you want. You want some kind of "GOTCHA RACIST" moment because you can't understand that you can talk about race without being racist and actually it is really important to do so.

Unless you were going to say "Black and Asian people simply don't wash and love to spit in each other's mouths" or something then no, I wasn't trying GOTCHA RACIST you. I was trying to get you to actually explain what you were trying to say, and repeatedly making it very clear I'd love to actually hear what the cultural differences are and whatever else you kept hinting at. The fact that you assumed I was trying to gotcha you has poisoned our entire interaction and is a major reason why it was so fucking weird and hostile. I've repeatedly made it clear that I'm being on the level with you, and it would be nice if you extended me the same courtesy.

Can you please post the Matthew Syed piece? I'd like to read it, and I'm sure it would help me understand your position.

People from ethnic minority backgrounds in Britain "face greater barriers" when trying to protect themselves from coronavirus, according to a report.

The Runnymede Trust, a race equality think-tank, said Bangladeshi and black African people were most vulnerable.

Jobs, households and using public transport are all said to be risk factors.

The government said it is working to help ethnic minorities, who have been disproportionately harmed by Covid-19.

There is growing evidence that people from those communities are at greater risk from the virus.

The Runnymede Trust also warned important public safety messages aimed at reducing transmission were currently not reaching all black and minority ethnic (BAME) communities.


The survey of 2,585 adults in Great Britain, including 750 from BAME backgrounds, suggests ethnic minorities are "over-exposed" because they are more likely to live in multigenerational households, which can reduce the ability to self-isolate and shield from the virus.

Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Black African groups are said to be the most likely to live in "overcrowded housing".

And more than a quarter of people from BAME backgrounds classified themselves as a "key worker" (28%), compared with 23% of white British people questioned in the same survey.
'We are not in the same boat'

BAME key workers were also more likely to report feeling as if they had faced additional risks through not having adequate personal protective equipment (PPE).

The survey found those from ethnic minority backgrounds were also more likely to say they had used public transport during lockdown - which could increase the chance of transmission because they are enclosed spaces.

The Runnymede Trust said all these factors helped to explain why certain parts of society had been hardest hit during the pandemic.

"While we have all faced the same storm, we are not in the same boat." said Dr Zubaida Haque, interim director of the trust.

"Our findings explain why we are seeing outbreaks in places like Leicester, densely populated areas with multigenerational households. Many people are also struggling to pay bills so have to leave their homes to work.

"Temporary housing and financial support should be made available to facilitate those who need to self-isolate."

The report also found ethnic minorities are less likely to know about government messaging like "Stay Home" and economic measures like the furlough scheme.

It recommends the NHS Test and Trace system needs to be better at reaching the most vulnerable, including working closer with local authorities who already have trusted relationships with their communities.

A statement from the Department for Health said: "We know that Covid-19 has had a disproportionate effect on people from Bame backgrounds, and, following the findings of the Public Health England report, the equalities minister is now taking forward vital work to tackle these disparities and protect our most vulnerable communities from the impact of the virus."

Thank you!

We've established that you're not talking about track & trace any more, which is fine. The fact that Asian communities are more likely to live in crowded and multi-generational homes is a given, I think. I genuinely do not understand how this is something that "no-one is talking about" or could possibly be construed as racist. Throughout this last page or two I've been trying to work out what big secret about BAME communities & cultural differences there might be that people wouldn't mention for fear of being called racist. I guess I just don't understand what there is to be 'racially sensitive' about here. I do think that saying "BAME folk live in more crowded accommodation due to financial and cultural factors" would be met with a "yes, and?" if there's nothing anyone's proposing to 'fix' that.

None of this stuff in that article has been going undiscussed - it's referred to in the links I gave earlier from major outlets - but it also doesn't really answer the question of why it's more lethal to BAME folks even adjusting for infection rates. There's some speculation regarding comorbidities but at the moment no-one really knows the answer.

Basically, I was looking for some reasons that might not be written about a lot in major publications, that people were afraid of talking about. I think I overestimated it.

[Slick]

Syed article. Helps with Cammy's point as well.

This is me done.

e may disagree about the government’s Covid strategy and the quality of the communication. We may even disagree about the timing of the decision late on Thursday to restrict much of the north of England, although I found it rather hypocritical that many who were blaming the government for acting too slowly at the start of the crisis are now angered they acted too fast.

But we can surely all agree that the announcement itself was a farce, a pantomime of Orwellian proportions. Here was a government imposing restrictions on a region where transmission is rising faster within some Asian communities, and on the eve of the most important festival in Islam, yet Matt Hancock said nothing of this, talking instead of transmission “between families” and “multigenerational households”. This was ministerial statement by code.

Over the next 48 hours, information came out in dribs and drabs — but not from ministers. The director of public health for Blackburn with Darwen said that 79% of recent cases in the predominantly white city had been among people from a south Asian background. Statistics from Public Health England for the week ending July 26 showed that 1,369 of those testing positive in England (37%) were Asian or Asian-British — a group that made up 7.5% of the population in the last census. Shouldn’t ministers have helped us interpret these statistics, rather than pretend they didn’t exist?

Some will doubtless applaud the government’s approach. After all, ministers are worried about igniting a backlash against Asians. They may also be fearful about being perceived as racist themselves. But shouldn’t we have learnt that racism is inflamed not by information, but by disinformation? Whatever the short-term risks from explaining the facts, they are far outweighed by the insidious decoupling of meaning from reality, creating the space for conspiracy theories to grow and mutate. Racism thrives in the gaps left open by right-minded people who fear inconvenient truths.

Among the litany of recent disasters, one can’t overlook various grooming scandals, including in Rotherham and Rochdale, where the unwillingness to discuss the ethnic dimension led to a virulent backlash against the Pakistani community that would have been inconceivable had a grown-up debate taken place earlier. It also led to more vulnerable youngsters being abused.

Across the Atlantic, one might also place police violence in this category: few pundits have had the courage to share peer-reviewed data — albeit contested — that lethal violence against black people is roughly the same as that against whites if the prevalence of crime in the two populations is taken into account. Why does this matter? Because the fearless analysis of data is the starting point for solutions — a point that should be embraced by the right and left.

Going back to Covid-19, nobody objects to ministers chronicling regional variation in the transmission of the virus. Indeed, this is what offers the best hope for a targeted approach. Yet the fact that they feel unable to talk about ethnic variation in transmission — information of lifesaving significance for the communities most at risk — shows how entangled we have become in the fine mesh of political correctness.

One of the most beautiful things about my father’s side of the family (he hails from Pakistan) is the deep love and respect for older people. It is rare to put parents into nursing homes because of the duty to care for them at home. But this is precisely why nothing would have had a deeper impact on Asian communities than a frank statement about how this cultural strength can, in the context of an epidemic, prove perilous. By tiptoeing around racial sensibilities, Hancock will, I fear, cost lives.

Allow me to restate: plain talking isn’t merely of great utility, it is also the surest antidote to bigotry. Why? Because by plainly stating the facts, we are likely to reach a more objective analysis. Craig Whittaker, one of the more hapless Tory MPs, explained the higher transmission among some ethnic groups as a disregard for rules on social distancing. “[Black and minority ethnic] communities are not taking this seriously enough,” he told LBC radio.

Yet while this may be a factor (some community leaders also made this point), I doubt he would have collapsed so complex a problem onto so simplistic a cause had the government set out a more comprehensive analysis from the outset. Asians — a diverse group — are, on average, more likely to work in frontline professions where social distancing is difficult, and to live in overcrowded housing. Whittaker was scarcely challenged by his interviewer.

The point is that data is not the enemy of rationality; it is the friend. This is particularly true during a pandemic — we need to know about risks of transmission in family settings, at meatpacking facilities and when people (mostly young and white) congregate on beaches or at raves and pubs. By understanding these patterns, we can take wiser precautions.

Of course, advocating for open discussion may seem quaint in a post-truth age. But look at the evidence. If you want to understand the growth of anti-immigrant sentiment in the UK, you are looking in the wrong place if you focus on Nigel Farage or even Tommy Robinson. No, this was seeded by Tony Blair and his mendacious silence about European Union enlargement in 2004, a topic that ministers were in effect barred from speaking about.

This fanned a sense of grievance, partly because nobody was addressing people’s concerns, but also because nobody was sharing hard data on the economic benefits of immigration, the net effect on the public purse and the heroic work performed by immigrants in the NHS and other services. In this context, it is worth recalling that the first four doctors who died from the coronavirus in the UK — Alfa Saadu, Amged el-Hawrani, Adil El Tayar and Habib Zaidi — were all from ethnic minority backgrounds.

Or take the rise of Donald Trump. He has got away with serial bigotry precisely because he could position it as an antidote to a climate of political correctness that has stifled free speech.

This is where the suppression of open dialogue ultimately leads. Polarisation. Post-truth. A clown in the White House clinging on to power. And, yes, a British minister unable to state a key reason for restrictions during a pandemic, leading to the viral dissemination of tropes and conspiracies.

Political correctness started out as a wonderful thing. Most people were delighted that the n-word and other hateful phrases had been removed from public discourse. But by taking it too far, we have exacerbated the problems it was designed to solve. This is the elephant in the room, the truth around which all right-minded people should coalesce.

As Orwell put it: “Political chaos is connected with the decay of language . . . one can probably bring about some improvement by starting at the verbal end.”

[Raggs]

Caring for elderly is an interesting angle.

Do we now see a raised level in BAME communities, because they don't put their elderly in care homes, whereas if they did, they'd have all been infected with the rest of them at the peak months ago?

The suggestion it's putting them at greater risk rather suggests that care homes have somehow been protected .

[JM2K6]

Thanks Slick. That article goes places I don't necessarily agree with, but the gist of it makes sense.

However, it is framed as " a government imposing restrictions on a region where transmission is rising faster within some Asian communities", which, well, isn't the whole truth. It's also rising faster within some white communities.

It's not mentioned, but I wonder whether the "reluctance" to mention Asian communities - assuming it's not just a case of "it's not just Asian communities so why would we say that" - is to reduce the risk of white people treating it less seriously? That jives with this: https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/04/manchest ... -13084480/ - an outbreak in Trafford, which is overwhelmingly white, making their public health official talk about complacency.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like that's any major cultural factors I was missing, so happy to end it here. Thanks for sticking with me to the bitter end, slick :)

[MungoMan]

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

Thread Englished.

I have Aussie Passport

Despite that being an APPALLING oversight on our part, lemme point output you weren’t amongst the preceding handful of posters.

[Slick]

Thanks Slick. That article goes places I don't necessarily agree with, but the gist of it makes sense.

However, it is framed as " a government imposing restrictions on a region where transmission is rising faster within some Asian communities", which, well, isn't the whole truth. It's also rising faster within some white communities.

It's not mentioned, but I wonder whether the "reluctance" to mention Asian communities - assuming it's not just a case of "it's not just Asian communities so why would we say that" - is to reduce the risk of white people treating it less seriously? That jives with this: https://metro.co.uk/2020/08/04/manchest ... -13084480/ - an outbreak in Trafford, which is overwhelmingly white, making their public health official talk about complacency.

Anyway, it doesn't seem like that's any major cultural factors I was missing, so happy to end it here. Thanks for sticking with me to the bitter end, slick :)

Always a pleasure

I'd actually missed your bit about posting the Syed article, forgot to do it last night, but it has all worked out well

[mat the expat]

EXECUTIVE SUMMARY

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I have Aussie Passport

Despite that being an APPALLING oversight on our part, lemme point output you weren’t amongst the preceding handful of posters.

The fools let me in

Just making sure

[.OverThere]

The multi-generational housing issue is in general not a poverty issue, but a social tradition within the indian/se asian communities.
A family of 4 brothers I know started in one house, then over time acquired wives/children, the house next door, and one across the road. They used to all eat together in one of the houses. Since those days, they have grown very wealthy, and acquired multiple houses which are considered to be investment properties. There have been deaths, marriages, and births, but the core of the family still live in the 3 houses.

[Hong Kong]

[Biffer]

I'd be deliberately coughing in their dinner.

[Jock42]

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Racist.

[Ovals]

I see the number reported new cases, in the UK, continues to edge upwards. 891 reported for yesterday

[ScarfaceClaw]

I’m a bit worried that I have mild dose of the rona. I’ve got a dry cough I can’t shake, metallic taste all through my mouth and am feeling a little short of breath. FFS. Nothing major but enough to nag away at the back of my mind. I have no idea where I might have got it. I’ve not left the house For a very long time other than to walk the dog.

[Un Pilier]

I’m a bit worried that I have mild dose of the rona. I’ve got a dry cough I can’t shake, metallic taste all through my mouth and am feeling a little short of breath. FFS. Nothing major but enough to nag away at the back of my mind. I have no idea where I might have got it. I’ve not left the house For a very long time other than to walk the dog.

So get it tested. Really

[Bokkom]

Ok, so I'm going to jump into this pond as well.
Anybody following John Campbell's daily report on Covid 19 and, if so, your take on it?

[sockwithaticket]

I’m a bit worried that I have mild dose of the rona. I’ve got a dry cough I can’t shake, metallic taste all through my mouth and am feeling a little short of breath. FFS. Nothing major but enough to nag away at the back of my mind. I have no idea where I might have got it. I’ve not left the house For a very long time other than to walk the dog.

Post?