Ref moaning and bitching thread

[Ymx]

Seems like Rennie at it now.

Rugby-Rennie launches referee attack after Wallabies lose to Wales

HONG KONG (Reuters) - Australia coach Dave Rennie launched an uncharacteristic attack on the quality of officiating during the Wallabies’ European tour on Saturday after seeing his side suffer a third straight reversal with a late loss against Wales.

The 29-28 defeat in Cardiff followed losses against Scotland and England and came after the Wallabies were forced to play for 66 minutes with 14 men following Rob Valetini’s sending off.
Rhys Priestland kicked a penalty after the hooter to give Wales the win against an Australian team that played with 13 men for 10 minutes after Kurtley Beale was given a yellow card.
A succession of decisions by referee Mike Adamson and his officiating team, and in particular by television match official (TMO) Marius Jonker, left Rennie frustrated.
“I make a real point not to criticise referees and we hand reports in and we seek a bit of clarity about things,” Rennie said.

“We did that after the Scotland game, got a lot of apologies during the week in a game that was a two-point ball game and (then got) the same TMO, who made a mess of a decision in that game as well.

“I just think our boys deserve better than that. It’s not going to help us, getting apologies during the week. The game’s gone.”

Rennie conceded the decision to hand Valetini a red card was correct after the number eight’s dangerous tackle on lock Adam Beard resulted in a clash of heads, but defended his decision to go public with his concerns about the standard of officiating.

“How do I support our team?” he said. “By biting my lip again and us getting apologies during the week? It doesn’t change the result.

“The boys emptied out the tank for each other and we deserved a better result than that.

“I felt it was important that I spoke my mind. I’ve been a professional coach for 20 years and I’ve never gone into the media and had a crack at a referee or the referee group.

“But I thought I had to tonight.”

The loss means the Australians have gone without a win in a European tour for the first time in 45 years, although Rennie felt there were positives gained despite the defeats.

“We’ll reflect back on three games that were winnable, so that’s frustrating,” he said. “We’ve learned a lot.
“What we’ve highlighted hopefully to everyone back home is there’s a huge amount of courage and character in this group and we saw that again tonight.”

[Sards]

Oh please, please, please no more ref bitching

[Kawazaki]

If that was all he said then he's hardly slandering them is he?!


Maybe we've all been desensitised due to Erasmus.

[sockwithaticket]

The boys emptied out the tank for each other and we deserved a better result than that.

That's not how sport works. Someone who's ascended to international head coach should really know that.

Look, those of us who support nations who've lost to Wales get it. It sucks, especially when it feels like they haven't actually been very good or apparent luck played a significant role, but sometimes the scoreline just doesn't end up in your favour.

Does he know what might have been enough to edge such a close encounter? Not picking up a red card or briefly being down to 13 men after Beale's clear yellow. Those were the ref correctly enforcing the laws and entirely within the control of the Wobblies playing staff.

[Kawazaki]

The boys emptied out the tank for each other and we deserved a better result than that.

That's not how sport works. Someone who's ascended to international head coach should really know that.

Look, those of us who support nations who've lost to Wales get it. It sucks, especially when it feels like they haven't actually been very good or apparent luck played a significant role, but sometimes the scoreline just doesn't end up in your favour.

Does he know what might have been enough to edge such a close encounter? Not picking up a red card or briefly being down to 13 men after Beale's clear yellow. Those were the ref correctly enforcing the laws and entirely within the control of the Wobblies playing staff.

Tbf, he did acknowledge the cards were correct. It was a fairly mild rebuke by Rennie. I only watched about 40 minutes of the game and I must admit I though the referee was only going after the Aussies just in that short viewing. I don't think he had a good game. And reviews like this just follow Jonker around all the time don't they.

[sockwithaticket]

The boys emptied out the tank for each other and we deserved a better result than that.

That's not how sport works. Someone who's ascended to international head coach should really know that.

Look, those of us who support nations who've lost to Wales get it. It sucks, especially when it feels like they haven't actually been very good or apparent luck played a significant role, but sometimes the scoreline just doesn't end up in your favour.

Does he know what might have been enough to edge such a close encounter? Not picking up a red card or briefly being down to 13 men after Beale's clear yellow. Those were the ref correctly enforcing the laws and entirely within the control of the Wobblies playing staff.

Tbf, he did acknowledge the cards were correct. It was a fairly mild rebuke by Rennie. I only watched about 40 minutes of the game and I must admit I though the referee was only going after the Aussies just in that short viewing. I don't think he had a good game. And reviews like this just follow Jonker around all the time don't they.

I can't recall any pens I'd say were obviously dodge and Wales certainly picked up pens of their own, it wasn't one way traffic. if he concedes the cards were right there's not an awful lot else to complain about. They would have had far more of an impact on the game.

[Ymx]

I wonder what the overall stats were of

Pens against/for and of cards.

For 6N v TRC

What’s a good source of stats these days?

[Ymx]

On the topic though. It seems there is growing dissent about the WR process and is not alone in frustration with sending reports/apologies but nothing improving.

Hask had a massive pop last night about them in the hospitality area. Saying Erasmus was wrong and got what he deserves, but also said it was needed to improve the situation.

[weegie01]

I have obviously missed something.

Who apologised to Australia about what?

[Ymx]

I have obviously missed something.

Who apologised to Australia about what?

World Rugby as per the bolded part in the OP

[Big D]

I have obviously missed something.

Who apologised to Australia about what?

World Rugby as per the bolded part in the OP

Every team could complain about decisions during games. Just seems the losers are complaining more loudly than the winners.

[Ymx]

Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

From an AB perspective I’ve nothing really I can moan about re reffing last night. I don’t think Barnes had a Homer.

I didn’t really follow the Aus game. But not surprised to see cards being dished out in true Wales home game form. It sounds like it was one sided officiating based on comments above.

Was at the Eng game and was very surprised not to see a card against the Etsebeth tackle. I get he was falling in to tackle which mitigated getting a straight red. Though yellow card against Nepo Laulala seemed of similar or lesser nature and impact.

Likewise cynical cards not really going against the home team.

Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

[Big D]

Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

It's not that at all.

Winners are equally allowed to be frustrated at penalty decisions but are more likely not to complain, or perhaps more correctly not complain in the press rather rather reaching out privately.

Because that is the case, it drives a narrative that the ref may have wrecked the game for the losing side. Occasionally that may have been the case but more often than not both sides could have complaints about the ref.

Scotland and Wales both had players in the bin yesterday.

[SaintK]

I stii don'y understand quite how Eng;land won conceding 18 penalties!!!

[boere wors]

Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

From an AB perspective I’ve nothing really I can moan about re reffing last night. I don’t think Barnes had a Homer.

I didn’t really follow the Aus game. But not surprised to see cards being dished out in true Wales home game form. It sounds like it was one sided officiating based on comments above.

Was at the Eng game and was very surprised not to see a card against the Etsebeth tackle. I get he was falling in to tackle which mitigated getting a straight red. Though yellow card against Nepo Laulala seemed of similar or lesser nature and impact.

Likewise cynical cards not really going against the home team.

Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

While a card would have probably been warranted according to the laws, I was happy with the refs decision. It is a contact sport, and obviously Etzebeth fell into the tackle. Penalty only is totally fine here. Haven't seen the Laulala incident.

[Calculon]

On the topic though. It seems there is growing dissent about the WR process and is not alone in frustration with sending reports/apologies but nothing improving.

Hask had a massive pop last night about them in the hospitality area. Saying Erasmus was wrong and got what he deserves, but also said it was needed to improve the situation.

Certainly seems to be a lot of frustration with the refs and world rugby. We've also seen a number of close games with the home team winning which will always mean a closer look at the refs influence on that particular match.

[Slick]

I stii don'y understand quite how Eng;land won conceding 18 penalties!!!

It was a godsend, gave the Saffers little to moan about.

[Margin__Walker]

I didn't watch the game. I did see that Rennie made a big deal about the Tompkins try. That's all well and good, but I did see that and that ball 100% did not go forward from Tompkins. I't not even 50:50, it just didn't. He should be angry at his team for not playing to the fucking whistle, rather than having a go at the ref and TMO there. It was actually a fantastic on field call from the ref.

“Kurtley Beale got sin-binned for slapping the ball down. They do the same thing, and it clearly goes forward and they get seven points out of us.

[Insane_Homer]

Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

From an AB perspective I’ve nothing really I can moan about re reffing last night. I don’t think Barnes had a Homer.

I didn’t really follow the Aus game. But not surprised to see cards being dished out in true Wales home game form. It sounds like it was one sided officiating based on comments above.

Was at the Eng game and was very surprised not to see a card against the Etsebeth tackle. I get he was falling in to tackle which mitigated getting a straight red. Though yellow card against Nepo Laulala seemed of similar or lesser nature and impact.

Likewise cynical cards not really going against the home team.

Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

While a card would have probably been warranted according to the laws, I was happy with the refs decision. It is a contact sport, and obviously Etzebeth fell into the tackle. Penalty only is totally fine here. Haven't seen the Lauhala incident.

My issue, as stated in the match thread, is that with the Eben forearm to the head, every effort was made to find mitigating circumstance. No mitigation was considered when Kolisi was yellowed for competing for the ball.

Lauhala incident - poor technique going in high results in a head clash. No mitigation. Red card.

[sockwithaticket]

I didn't watch the game. I did see that Rennie made a big deal about the Tompkins try. That's all well and good, but I did see that and that ball 100% did not go forward from Tompkins. I't not even 50:50, it just didn't. He should be angry at his team for not playing to the fucking whistle, rather than having a go at the ref and TMO there

“Kurtley Beale got sin-binned for slapping the ball down. They do the same thing, and it clearly goes forward and they get seven points out of us.

Exactly. If Beale had gone after Tompkins rather than stand there flapping his arms around like a penguin that doesn't know it can't fly, then perhaps Tompkins wouldn't have had a clear run to the line.

Rennie's complaints are somewhat undermined when he gets such a high profile and clear cut incident so fundamentally wrong.

Slipper seemed incredulous that it wasn't an offence and rather than making me question the officials it forces the consideration do Australia actually know the laws?

[Insane_Homer]

The Beale yellow was a no brainer.

[JM2K6]

Ewels was aiming for Etzebeth's midriff with his arm position, Etzebeth was upright and heading in his direction so had to be tackled. The rug got pulled out from under him and he nosedived into an arm.

There's literally nothing Ewels could have done. The picture presented to him when he decided to tackle was one thing, and he was attempting a legal tackle, was in control of his actions, and the tackle looked like it needed to be made. There was no danger inherent in his actions.

As much as I hate to say it, that's as close to a "rugby incident" and accidental as it gets.

Kolisi's tackle in the air was a borderline yellow. However it is incumbent on players to be aware of other players - if you choose to compete in the air and get it wrong, it's on you. Marchant ended up whacking his face fairly heavily on the ground so a yellow isn't the worst it could've been. This has been consistently refereed for a few years now.

I was disappointed to see two saffers deliberately smash a player in the air on the last play of the game; while I can totally see how Frans Steyn's knee drop on Smith could have been mostly accidental, there's no excuse for Etzebeth and co, and I felt a card was warranted there.

[weegie01]

I have obviously missed something.

Who apologised to Australia about what?

World Rugby as per the bolded part in the OP

The bolded bit just says they got apologies, not from whom.

I can only find one Australian source quoting Rennie as saying that World Rugby admitted that decisions in the Scotland game were wrong. Every other reference that comes up when I search for World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong goes back to Joubert.

Hence my surprise. World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong in a Scotland match would be all over the rugby press here, and it was not.

[boere wors]

Yeah I get it “Pipe down losers”

From an AB perspective I’ve nothing really I can moan about re reffing last night. I don’t think Barnes had a Homer.

I didn’t really follow the Aus game. But not surprised to see cards being dished out in true Wales home game form. It sounds like it was one sided officiating based on comments above.

Was at the Eng game and was very surprised not to see a card against the Etsebeth tackle. I get he was falling in to tackle which mitigated getting a straight red. Though yellow card against Nepo Laulala seemed of similar or lesser nature and impact.

Likewise cynical cards not really going against the home team.

Any yellow cards against home teams this Autumn?

While a card would have probably been warranted according to the laws, I was happy with the refs decision. It is a contact sport, and obviously Etzebeth fell into the tackle. Penalty only is totally fine here. Haven't seen the Lauhala incident.

My issue, as stated in the match thread, is that with the Eben forearm to the head, every effort was made to find mitigating circumstance. No mitigation was considered when Kolisi was yellowed for competing for the ball.

Lauhala incident - poor technique going in high results in a head clash. No mitigation. Red card.

Thanks. How can anyone compare that tackle to the Etzebeth incident. Poor technique, reckless, dumb. That is yellow, if not more.

Kolisi was strange, as the ref said no attempt to catch the ball, which was clearly the case. Only did he catch the player instead...

[Ymx]

I have obviously missed something.

Who apologised to Australia about what?

World Rugby as per the bolded part in the OP

The bolded bit just says they got apologies, not from whom.

I can only find one Australian source quoting Rennie as saying that World Rugby admitted that decisions in the Scotland game were wrong. Every other reference that comes up when I search for World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong goes back to Joubert.

Hence my surprise. World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong in a Scotland match would be all over the rugby press here, and it was not.

They admit they get decisions wrong all the time to the coaches in each post match review (in private).

Above it clearly states they received apologies, yet still ended up with the same TMO. Not too hard to read between the lines he is talking about WR.

They don’t hang it out in public though.

[Raggs]

I want to complain about the ref today, not harsh enough on offsides and personally felt some high tackles were let go. Really slow to call the tackle on what I felt was well over a 3 second clear wrap, not even just a shirt grab. Didn't complain in front of my players though.

This thread, when talkgin about u10s with dads as referees is where this sort of bitching goes too right?

[Sandstorm]

Anyone have an issue with Lavanini’s red this afternoon?

[Ymx]

I want to complain about the ref today, not harsh enough on offsides and personally felt some high tackles were let go. Really slow to call the tackle on what I felt was well over a 3 second clear wrap, not even just a shirt grab. Didn't complain in front of my players though.

This thread, when talkgin about u10s with dads as referees is where this sort of bitching goes too right?

Those little critters get away with murder. I’d say you pen an open letter to World Rugby.

[Raggs]

I want to complain about the ref today, not harsh enough on offsides and personally felt some high tackles were let go. Really slow to call the tackle on what I felt was well over a 3 second clear wrap, not even just a shirt grab. Didn't complain in front of my players though.

This thread, when talkgin about u10s with dads as referees is where this sort of bitching goes too right?

Those little critters get away with murder. I’d say you pen an open letter to World Rugby.

It's tempting, seeing as it was my own son that copped a swinging arm to the face. Not even a thought to a yellow card (not a red card offence due to a change in height, that I can understand). There again, given how the first game went, World Rugby would probably just think I was being bitter about our poor results earlier in the festival

[OomStruisbaai]

To be honest the Wallabies vs Wales ref is far below test level. I have been watching him in PRO14 level. Utterly kak.

The Irish ref in the Bok vs England match was consistent. That's enough and all you want.

Wayne Barnes in France vs All Blacks was the usual Wayne Barnes. Quick to blow against the All Blacks.

[boere wors]

Anyone have an issue with Lavanini’s red this afternoon?

FFS, did that moron get himself another card today???

[boere wors]

To be honest the Wallabies vs Wales ref is far below test level. I have been watching him in PRO14 level. Utterly kak.

The Irish ref in the Bok vs England match was consistent. That's enough and all you want.

Wayne Barnes in France vs All Blacks was the usual Wayne Barnes. Quick to blow against the All Blacks.

Spot on. He was mocked by Keo et al before the game, but I also thought not much to complain about

[OomStruisbaai]

Keo is rubbish Boet.

[Lobby]

To be honest the Wallabies vs Wales ref is far below test level. I have been watching him in PRO14 level. Utterly kak.

The Irish ref in the Bok vs England match was consistent. That's enough and all you want.

Wayne Barnes in France vs All Blacks was the usual Wayne Barnes. Quick to blow against the All Blacks.

The funniest bit in the Wales Aus match was when Nick White was berating the ref about another Aussie penalty, and the ref sent him away, telling him he would only talk to the Captain. White then tried to pretend he was now Captain, only for the ref to say “no you’re not, now go away.”

I’d have been tempted to march the Aussies back 10 meters for that and give White a yellow card for dissent, but the ref was more lenient.

[Ymx]

Nick White is the ultimate annoying yappy half back.

It was him wasn’t it who threw one of the ABs boots in to the crowd during a game?

[Ymx]

No, that was another Aus half back cretin.

Nick Phipps

https://www.smh.com.au/sport/rugby-unio ... r3i3o.html

[weegie01]

World Rugby as per the bolded part in the OP

The bolded bit just says they got apologies, not from whom.

I can only find one Australian source quoting Rennie as saying that World Rugby admitted that decisions in the Scotland game were wrong. Every other reference that comes up when I search for World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong goes back to Joubert.

Hence my surprise. World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong in a Scotland match would be all over the rugby press here, and it was not.

They admit they get decisions wrong all the time to the coaches in each post match review (in private).

Above it clearly states they received apologies, yet still ended up with the same TMO. Not too hard to read between the lines he is talking about WR.

They don’t hang it out in public though.

I am aware that there are reviews, but the only source that Australia got 'lots of apologies' appears to be Rennie. I doubt he is outright lying, but I also believe that he is presenting a very partial version of events others are unfamiliar with.

It may be that Australia were unhappy with Jonker before the game and told World Rugby so, but if they did, you can't have teams dictating who will officiate them unless there are very clear and obvious issues. I do not recall watching the game thinking the officials had got it seriously wrong a number of times, certainly not enough to warrant 'lots of apologies' which imply the officiating team had done a very poor job. There were undoubtedly calls that could have gone differently both ways, but that happens in any game.

World Rugby have apologised for significant errors before. This was not one of those occasions although Rennie appears to spinning that it was as opposed to the normal match review process.

[Torquemada 1420]

Gareth Thomas was as clear a red as there is under current laws.

[Ymx]

The bolded bit just says they got apologies, not from whom.

I can only find one Australian source quoting Rennie as saying that World Rugby admitted that decisions in the Scotland game were wrong. Every other reference that comes up when I search for World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong goes back to Joubert.

Hence my surprise. World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong in a Scotland match would be all over the rugby press here, and it was not.

They admit they get decisions wrong all the time to the coaches in each post match review (in private).

Above it clearly states they received apologies, yet still ended up with the same TMO. Not too hard to read between the lines he is talking about WR.

They don’t hang it out in public though.

I am aware that there are reviews, but the only source that Australia got 'lots of apologies' appears to be Rennie. I doubt he is outright lying, but I also believe that he is presenting a very partial version of events others are unfamiliar with.

It may be that Australia were unhappy with Jonker before the game and told World Rugby so, but if they did, you can't have teams dictating who will officiate them unless there are very clear and obvious issues. I do not recall watching the game thinking the officials had got it seriously wrong a number of times, certainly not enough to warrant 'lots of apologies' which imply the officiating team had done a very poor job. There were undoubtedly calls that could have gone differently both ways, but that happens in any game.

World Rugby have apologised for significant errors before. This was not one of those occasions although Rennie appears to spinning that it was as opposed to the normal match review process.

Not sure where we are going with this. I was responding to your comment “ World Rugby admitting the ref got it wrong in a Scotland match”

That’s exactly what happened and happens every week. Head coach sends in requests for comment on certain decisions.

The ref review process then agrees or disagrees with the various decisions. All normally behind closed doors, which is why you don’t hear it in the press.

It would appear the WR ref review uncovered a number of errors including that yellow card they had against them v Scotland.

[Raggs]

If a ref or tmo etc gets too many decisions wrong, they get put on a lower level game, or fired (if it's bad enough and they're at/near the end anyway).

They don't get to be awful with no consequences.