FOSTER - NOW GONE 🎉 - congrats kiwis

[Insane_Homer]

Feels like the ABs have made more unforced handling errors on this tour than their previous 3 years of rugby. totally out of character.

[Gumboot]

Feels like the ABs have made more unforced handling errors on this tour than their previous 3 years of rugby. totally out of character.

Yep, our handling and kicking have been woeful when they mattered most. Cost us dearly, especially with such limited territory and possession to play with. Never mind the defensive pressure we were under, we blew far too many good chances through poor skill execution.

[Ymx]

Foster has turned the All Blacks in to far less than the sum of the parts.

This is obviously notable when you look at what Super Rugby NZ was producing in terms of players, cohesion, outrageous precision, and dominance.

Not disagreeing but might need some moderation due to your opposition. Aus Soup is down the toilet and SA sides have struggled against the might of Wales and Italy in the Pro 14.

FWIW though, watching the likes of the Magpies and you do have to think there is something wrong at AB level.

Yes and I get the Aussie thing. But even that aside, the terrible precision which has evolved in to the team and become worse over the season. The exciting players which have plummeted to such a low standard. Eg Havili, Richie Mo. The entire forward pack probably. Pretty much the entire team aside from Jordie Barrett.

I support the Crusaders more than the All Blacks with the current shitshow

[Torquemada 1420]

I support the Crusaders more than the All Blacks with the current shitshow

Hah. I've felt that pain on and off for 30 odd years!

[OomStruisbaai]

All Blacks going through a difficult cycle.

Know it's not easy for the supporters.

The most worrying is the form of your experience players.

Maybe need more games through the season?

Chucking out the SA teams was a big mistake.

[Ymx]

All Blacks going through a difficult cycle.

Know it's not easy for the supporters.

The most worrying is the form of your experience players.

Maybe need more games through the season?

Chucking out the SA teams was a big mistake.

I don’t really think not playing SA teams is a problem. Nor is playing enough games (15 intls)

I think you might want to have a quick peek at the thread title and the contents for some clues.

[Sandstorm]

Foster has turned the All Blacks in to far less than the sum of the parts.

This is obviously notable when you look at what Super Rugby NZ was producing in terms of players, cohesion, outrageous precision, and dominance.

Not disagreeing but might need some moderation due to your opposition. Aus Soup is down the toilet and SA sides have struggled against the might of Wales and Italy in the Pro 14.

FWIW though, watching the likes of the Magpies and you do have to think there is something wrong at AB level.

Yes and I get the Aussie thing. But even that aside, the terrible precision which has evolved in to the team and become worse over the season. The exciting players which have plummeted to such a low standard. Eg Havili, Richie Mo. The entire forward pack probably. Pretty much the entire team aside from Jordie Barrett.

I support the Crusaders more than the All Blacks with the current shitshow

6 months ago you were all calling for Jordie’s head, now he’s the best AB on tour??

Shows how flat everyone else in the team really is right now.

[OomStruisbaai]

Ja you want Scot Robinson.

[Uncle fester]

Your pack is old and shit and you need to address that.
Hope that helps.

[Enzedder]

Your pack is old and shit and you need to address that.
Hope that helps.

Not enough youngsters in the Crusaders pack to get the support of the glitterati.

[FalseBayFC]

I know the game has changed a lot but one of my enduring memories of the nineties was just how well drilled the All Black forwards were. They were so good at the ruck and maul area. Ditto the great McCaw era teams. I've watched a bit of domestic NZ rugby this year and it seems that this facet of the game has declined a little in NZ. Its a tactical thing, a conscious decision to not contest breakdowns as aggressively.

A Shelford, Fitzpatrick ,Umaga or McCaw I feel would have the stature to challenge Foster here and they were great at outfoxing the opposition on the field. They're great players but neither Whitelock nor Cane have the upper 2 inches to be great AB captains. Whitelock has looked visibly rattled and frustrated as captain on more than a few occasions. I haven't seen that happen a lot.

[Ymx]

I think the wound already is sufficiently salted by us thanks!

[JM2K6]

I actually had the same thought when chatting rugby with a mate the other day. The number one reason why NH sides feared the ABs wasn't because of the razzle-dazzle, it was because they'd fucking kill us at the breakdown - the high skill, high octane attacking game was just the way they'd beat you after that. I'm not sure whether it's been a slow decline or whether we've just become better at competing, though - I'm leaning towards the latter but haven't made my mind up.

[Grandpa]

I actually had the same thought when chatting rugby with a mate the other day. The number one reason why NH sides feared the ABs wasn't because of the razzle-dazzle, it was because they'd fucking kill us at the breakdown - the high skill, high octane attacking game was just the way they'd beat you after that. I'm not sure whether it's been a slow decline or whether we've just become better at competing, though - I'm leaning towards the latter but haven't made my mind up.

It's been an active policy to arrogantly not commit numbers to the breakdown... with the assumption that we have always been so good that even one player can out-compete 3 or 4... it may have worked 5 to 10 years ago, but the rest of the world has wised up... and for some reason, firstly Hansen and now Foster are stubbornly continuing with it.

Same on attack... out-dated and easily defended against, so we rely more and more on individuals rather than any tactical system...

Posted on the other site.. but partly sums up the problems..

[Ymx]

I think we are losing the breakdowns. One of the key parts of our success was rapid recycling.

The NH teams are now sorting out their rucks faster than us, 2 seconds to recycle from a tackle.

Whereas we are getting slowed down and often pinged for holding on. We’ve not adapted to how it’s reffed these days up here. Nor are we effectively clearing out rucks.

[JM2K6]

Part of it is the approach to rucks has become more technical in the last 4-5 years, due to the focus on the safety aspect.

[Grandpa]

I just find it hard to believe that firstly Hansen and now Foster and his team are unware of this? They won't admit it is a problem area.. and instead blame it on things like decision making in the backs...

[JM2K6]

I just find it hard to believe that firstly Hansen and now Foster and his team are unware of this? They won't admit it is a problem area.. and instead blame it on things like decision making in the backs...

Do you have a better pack available? If not, you've got to make do with what you have, and your backs have no excuse for being so shaky.

Basically if my view of things holds up, then what we're seeing is just that other sides have matched/overtaken NZ in terms of breakdown talent. I'm sure some of it can be addressed by changing the approach - it's not quite as simple as "add more people" because the best attacking sides are incredibly judicious about how many players they throw in - but ever since Richie left NZ hasn't been blessed with a lot of extremely good breakdown operators as far as I can tell. Is that fair, or are there guys waiting in the wings who are dominating at Super Rugby level?

[OomStruisbaai]

I think we are losing the breakdowns. One of the key parts of our success was rapid recycling.

The NH teams are now sorting out their rucks faster than us, 2 seconds to recycle from a tackle.

Whereas we are getting slowed down and often pinged for holding on. We’ve not adapted to how it’s reffed these days up here. Nor are we effectively clearing out rucks.

It has a lot to do with the reffing of breakdowns. In the NPC or CC the refs let the rucks go for much longer to let the game flow. Up north its a quick penalty either way. Our teams are still struggling to cope with this in the URC.

[Ymx]

I just find it hard to believe that firstly Hansen and now Foster and his team are unware of this? They won't admit it is a problem area.. and instead blame it on things like decision making in the backs...

Well actually the backs fluidity is another area lacking.

Though it was never lacking during Supe where players positioned themselves and the ball was distributed like the team was a single organism.

But that fell apart when Foster got his hands on the team.

[Grandpa]

I just find it hard to believe that firstly Hansen and now Foster and his team are unware of this? They won't admit it is a problem area.. and instead blame it on things like decision making in the backs...

Do you have a better pack available? If not, you've got to make do with what you have, and your backs have no excuse for being so shaky.

Basically if my view of things holds up, then what we're seeing is just that other sides have matched/overtaken NZ in terms of breakdown talent. I'm sure some of it can be addressed by changing the approach - it's not quite as simple as "add more people" because the best attacking sides are incredibly judicious about how many players they throw in - but ever since Richie left NZ hasn't been blessed with a lot of extremely good breakdown operators as far as I can tell. Is that fair, or are there guys waiting in the wings who are dominating at Super Rugby level?

Watch the Crusaders play and it is totally different to the All Blacks and most other NZ sides. They rule the breakdown in Super Rugby even when SAn sides were involved.. They swarm it like the top European and Springbok sides. But the Crusaders are also not only able to create quick ruck ball, and gain turnovers, they can quickly move into attack mode... but they have a forward platform first.. the All Blacks backs keep trying to play when no forward momentum has been gained.

Just watch that video on how France smashed the All Blacks to see where the coaching is going wrong... we rely too much on individual brilliance rather than good structures creating opportunities.

[Grandpa]

I just find it hard to believe that firstly Hansen and now Foster and his team are unware of this? They won't admit it is a problem area.. and instead blame it on things like decision making in the backs...

Well actually the backs fluidity is another area lacking.

Though it was never lacking during Supe where players positioned themselves and the ball was distributed like the team was a single organism.

But that fell apart when Foster got his hands on the team.

I have a horrible feeling that Foster won't adapt... he is almost in denial that NZ is behind the European and Boks sides when it comes to the breakdown... he has known it is a problem area since 2017... and yet I can't see any signs of him changing anything to combat this?

[JM2K6]

I just find it hard to believe that firstly Hansen and now Foster and his team are unware of this? They won't admit it is a problem area.. and instead blame it on things like decision making in the backs...

Do you have a better pack available? If not, you've got to make do with what you have, and your backs have no excuse for being so shaky.

Basically if my view of things holds up, then what we're seeing is just that other sides have matched/overtaken NZ in terms of breakdown talent. I'm sure some of it can be addressed by changing the approach - it's not quite as simple as "add more people" because the best attacking sides are incredibly judicious about how many players they throw in - but ever since Richie left NZ hasn't been blessed with a lot of extremely good breakdown operators as far as I can tell. Is that fair, or are there guys waiting in the wings who are dominating at Super Rugby level?

Watch the Crusaders play and it is totally different to the All Blacks and most other NZ sides. They rule the breakdown in Super Rugby even when SAn sides were involved.. They swarm it like the top European and Springbok sides. But the Crusaders are also not only able to create quick ruck ball, and gain turnovers, they can quickly move into attack mode... but they have a forward platform first.. the All Blacks backs keep trying to play when no forward momentum has been gained.

Just watch that video on how France smashed the All Blacks to see where the coaching is going wrong... we rely too much on individual brilliance rather than good structures creating opportunities.

I'll watch it - I have a natural aversion to Squidge videos as he loves himself some ergo hoc post propter hoc. Everything is ~carefully planned and executed~ whereas in reality of lot of things are purely coincidental, accidental, or entirely off-the-cuff.

[laurent]

Do you have a better pack available? If not, you've got to make do with what you have, and your backs have no excuse for being so shaky.

Basically if my view of things holds up, then what we're seeing is just that other sides have matched/overtaken NZ in terms of breakdown talent. I'm sure some of it can be addressed by changing the approach - it's not quite as simple as "add more people" because the best attacking sides are incredibly judicious about how many players they throw in - but ever since Richie left NZ hasn't been blessed with a lot of extremely good breakdown operators as far as I can tell. Is that fair, or are there guys waiting in the wings who are dominating at Super Rugby level?

Watch the Crusaders play and it is totally different to the All Blacks and most other NZ sides. They rule the breakdown in Super Rugby even when SAn sides were involved.. They swarm it like the top European and Springbok sides. But the Crusaders are also not only able to create quick ruck ball, and gain turnovers, they can quickly move into attack mode... but they have a forward platform first.. the All Blacks backs keep trying to play when no forward momentum has been gained.

Just watch that video on how France smashed the All Blacks to see where the coaching is going wrong... we rely too much on individual brilliance rather than good structures creating opportunities.

I'll watch it - I have a natural aversion to Squidge videos as he loves himself some ergo hoc post propter hoc. Everything is ~carefully planned and executed~ whereas in reality of lot of things are purely coincidental, accidental, or entirely off-the-cuff.

He can be annoying but his stuff is useful.

[Grandpa]

Watch the Crusaders play and it is totally different to the All Blacks and most other NZ sides. They rule the breakdown in Super Rugby even when SAn sides were involved.. They swarm it like the top European and Springbok sides. But the Crusaders are also not only able to create quick ruck ball, and gain turnovers, they can quickly move into attack mode... but they have a forward platform first.. the All Blacks backs keep trying to play when no forward momentum has been gained.

Just watch that video on how France smashed the All Blacks to see where the coaching is going wrong... we rely too much on individual brilliance rather than good structures creating opportunities.

I'll watch it - I have a natural aversion to Squidge videos as he loves himself some ergo hoc post propter hoc. Everything is ~carefully planned and executed~ whereas in reality of lot of things are purely coincidental, accidental, or entirely off-the-cuff.

He can be annoying but his stuff is useful.

Yeah I find him annoying too. But he made some good points in this video

[FalseBayFC]

I think we are losing the breakdowns. One of the key parts of our success was rapid recycling.

The NH teams are now sorting out their rucks faster than us, 2 seconds to recycle from a tackle.

Whereas we are getting slowed down and often pinged for holding on. We’ve not adapted to how it’s reffed these days up here. Nor are we effectively clearing out rucks.

It has a lot to do with the reffing of breakdowns. In the NPC or CC the refs let the rucks go for much longer to let the game flow. Up north its a quick penalty either way. Our teams are still struggling to cope with this in the URC.

Right now you don't have a monster like Jerry Collins or Jerome Kaino who had both the pace and power to play blow the oppo out of the ruck. I think the AB's miss a Kaino type even more than they do McCaw. I also think that no.8 must be a specialist position. Its not just a generic loose forward role. The very best 8s are not mere flankers. Shelford, Zinzan, Teichman, Read, Parisse, Vermeulen all had/have height, weight and a very heightened sense of positional play which separates them from utility loose forward. Savea and Akira Ioane don't have the whole suit. Ardie is an openside flanker and Akira is a blindside. NZ need a no.8.

[OomStruisbaai]

Ardea use to dominate the breakdowns. Nowadays he enjoy swan dives after scoring tries. He will be my first pick for the 7 (our 6) jersey.

[Gumboot]

I also think that no.8 must be a specialist position. Its not just a generic loose forward role. The very best 8s are not mere flankers. Shelford, Zinzan, Teichman, Read, Parisse, Vermeulen all had/have height, weight and a very heightened sense of positional play which separates them from utility loose forward.

But Read started his career at blindside, before being converted into a no.8 when So'oialo's form nosedived in 2009.

And what about your very own RWC-winning lock cum no.8 Mark Andrews?

[FalseBayFC]

I also think that no.8 must be a specialist position. Its not just a generic loose forward role. The very best 8s are not mere flankers. Shelford, Zinzan, Teichman, Read, Parisse, Vermeulen all had/have height, weight and a very heightened sense of positional play which separates them from utility loose forward.

But Read started his career at blindside, before being converted into a no.8 when So'oialo's form nosedived in 2009.

And what about your very own RWC-winning lock cum no.8 Mark Andrews?

Read in his prime was the best 8 I ever saw. We didn't get to see much of Buck Shelford here in SA. The Mark Andrews experiment was a real gamble but came off well. But he had great ball skills for a lock at that time. He was a water polo beast at school.
I remember reading this opinion from Buck Shelford last year. There does seem to be a move in rugby to have more utility type loosies and experiment with combinations. But the 8,9,10 combination is so vital, the ABs destroy opponents with quick ball from set pieces and phase ball a good specialist 8 makes that happen. The Boks are going to hit the same problem when Vermeulen exits.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2020/06/22/buck ... -number-8/

[Grandpa]

I also think that no.8 must be a specialist position. Its not just a generic loose forward role. The very best 8s are not mere flankers. Shelford, Zinzan, Teichman, Read, Parisse, Vermeulen all had/have height, weight and a very heightened sense of positional play which separates them from utility loose forward.

But Read started his career at blindside, before being converted into a no.8 when So'oialo's form nosedived in 2009.

And what about your very own RWC-winning lock cum no.8 Mark Andrews?

Read in his prime was the best 8 I ever saw. We didn't get to see much of Buck Shelford here in SA. The Mark Andrews experiment was a real gamble but came off well. But he had great ball skills for a lock at that time. He was a water polo beast at school.
I remember reading this opinion from Buck Shelford last year. There does seem to be a move in rugby to have more utility type loosies and experiment with combinations. But the 8,9,10 combination is so vital, the ABs destroy opponents with quick ball from set pieces and phase ball a good specialist 8 makes that happen. The Boks are going to hit the same problem when Vermeulen exits.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2020/06/22/buck ... -number-8/

I wouldn't have minded Akira Ioane getting a go there. He played 8 a lot before Sotutu came along and it suits his game better being the loosest of the three flanker roles... plus he has good ball skills. Would like him to get back to his playing weight of a few years ago. He was still big, but looks a bit fat nowadays.

[FalseBayFC]

But Read started his career at blindside, before being converted into a no.8 when So'oialo's form nosedived in 2009.

And what about your very own RWC-winning lock cum no.8 Mark Andrews?

Read in his prime was the best 8 I ever saw. We didn't get to see much of Buck Shelford here in SA. The Mark Andrews experiment was a real gamble but came off well. But he had great ball skills for a lock at that time. He was a water polo beast at school.
I remember reading this opinion from Buck Shelford last year. There does seem to be a move in rugby to have more utility type loosies and experiment with combinations. But the 8,9,10 combination is so vital, the ABs destroy opponents with quick ball from set pieces and phase ball a good specialist 8 makes that happen. The Boks are going to hit the same problem when Vermeulen exits.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2020/06/22/buck ... -number-8/

I wouldn't have minded Akira Ioane getting a go there. He played 8 a lot before Sotutu came along and it suits his game better being the loosest of the three flanker roles... plus he has good ball skills. Would like him to get back to his playing weight of a few years ago. He was still big, but looks a bit fat nowadays.

I've always thought that the best no.8s had a canny quality. Zinzan and Read really exemplified this. They were great at organizing and reading defence and attack. Akira still has time to develop this. He's an explosive athlete and he seems to be maturing mentally. Foster would need to commit though.

[Gumboot]

Yeah, Akira's always looked like a more natural no.8 than blindside to me.

Read's right up there with Zinny as the best All Blacks no.8 I've seen. Ámong his many magnificent feats, he was instrumental in ending the test career of Springboks legend Pierre Spies.

[FalseBayFC]

Yeah, Akira's always looked like a more natural no.8 than blindside to me.

Read's right up there with Zinny as the best All Blacks no.8 I've seen. Ámong his many magnificent feats, he was instrumental in ending the test career of Springboks legend Pierre Spies.

On Pierre Spies's wikipedia page. You just know he contributed that himself to the page.

As of 2009, Spies could power clean 135 kg, dead-lift 240 kg, bench-press 165 kg and do pull-ups with a 50 kg weight between his legs. He could jump 1.4m onto a raised platform and had a body-fat percentage of 6.5.

[Grandpa]

Yeah, Akira's always looked like a more natural no.8 than blindside to me.

Read's right up there with Zinny as the best All Blacks no.8 I've seen. Ámong his many magnificent feats, he was instrumental in ending the test career of Springboks legend Pierre Spies.

On Pierre Spies's wikipedia page. You just know he contributed that himself to the page.

As of 2009, Spies could power clean 135 kg, dead-lift 240 kg, bench-press 165 kg and do pull-ups with a 50 kg weight between his legs. He could jump 1.4m onto a raised platform and had a body-fat percentage of 6.5.

Where did it all go wrong...

[Grandpa]

The All Blacks need a coach who can get them playing better than the sum of their parts... at the moment we're too reliant on the parts...

[Sandstorm]

I also think that no.8 must be a specialist position. Its not just a generic loose forward role. The very best 8s are not mere flankers. Shelford, Zinzan, Teichman, Read, Parisse, Vermeulen all had/have height, weight and a very heightened sense of positional play which separates them from utility loose forward.

But Read started his career at blindside, before being converted into a no.8 when So'oialo's form nosedived in 2009.

And what about your very own RWC-winning lock cum no.8 Mark Andrews?

Read in his prime was the best 8 I ever saw. We didn't get to see much of Buck Shelford here in SA. The Mark Andrews experiment was a real gamble but came off well. But he had great ball skills for a lock at that time. He was a water polo beast at school.
I remember reading this opinion from Buck Shelford last year. There does seem to be a move in rugby to have more utility type loosies and experiment with combinations. But the 8,9,10 combination is so vital, the ABs destroy opponents with quick ball from set pieces and phase ball a good specialist 8 makes that happen. The Boks are going to hit the same problem when Vermeulen exits.

https://www.1news.co.nz/2020/06/22/buck ... -number-8/

Evan Roos

[Ymx]

The All Blacks need a coach who can get them playing better than the sum of their parts... at the moment we're too reliant on the parts...

I’d settle for close to the sum of their parts. That would be a huge improvement

[JM2K6]

Do you have a better pack available? If not, you've got to make do with what you have, and your backs have no excuse for being so shaky.

Basically if my view of things holds up, then what we're seeing is just that other sides have matched/overtaken NZ in terms of breakdown talent. I'm sure some of it can be addressed by changing the approach - it's not quite as simple as "add more people" because the best attacking sides are incredibly judicious about how many players they throw in - but ever since Richie left NZ hasn't been blessed with a lot of extremely good breakdown operators as far as I can tell. Is that fair, or are there guys waiting in the wings who are dominating at Super Rugby level?

Watch the Crusaders play and it is totally different to the All Blacks and most other NZ sides. They rule the breakdown in Super Rugby even when SAn sides were involved.. They swarm it like the top European and Springbok sides. But the Crusaders are also not only able to create quick ruck ball, and gain turnovers, they can quickly move into attack mode... but they have a forward platform first.. the All Blacks backs keep trying to play when no forward momentum has been gained.

Just watch that video on how France smashed the All Blacks to see where the coaching is going wrong... we rely too much on individual brilliance rather than good structures creating opportunities.

I'll watch it - I have a natural aversion to Squidge videos as he loves himself some ergo hoc post propter hoc. Everything is ~carefully planned and executed~ whereas in reality of lot of things are purely coincidental, accidental, or entirely off-the-cuff.

I watched it and good lord he's insufferable, he's really dialled the modern YouTuber attitude up to 11, hasn't he? He had essentially two real comments to make about the ABs, which is that their attacking patterns are a bit obvious and that teams find success going up the guts. The latter was true way back to the World Cup when England exploited it, and the former is pretty obvious to anyone with working eyes IMO. Hilarious that he went so overboard about the (admittedly lovely) bit of skill by Ntamack, like we've not seen it before from, erm, TJ Perenara to Beauden Barrett...

He never really comments on on-field decision making because he seems to think everything is a plan and so he totally ignores the very concept of on-field leadership & decision making under pressure, which IMO is a big miss when talking about the ABs.

[Grandpa]

Watch the Crusaders play and it is totally different to the All Blacks and most other NZ sides. They rule the breakdown in Super Rugby even when SAn sides were involved.. They swarm it like the top European and Springbok sides. But the Crusaders are also not only able to create quick ruck ball, and gain turnovers, they can quickly move into attack mode... but they have a forward platform first.. the All Blacks backs keep trying to play when no forward momentum has been gained.

Just watch that video on how France smashed the All Blacks to see where the coaching is going wrong... we rely too much on individual brilliance rather than good structures creating opportunities.

I'll watch it - I have a natural aversion to Squidge videos as he loves himself some ergo hoc post propter hoc. Everything is ~carefully planned and executed~ whereas in reality of lot of things are purely coincidental, accidental, or entirely off-the-cuff.

I watched it and good lord he's insufferable, he's really dialled the modern YouTuber attitude up to 11, hasn't he? He had essentially two real comments to make about the ABs, which is that their attacking patterns are a bit obvious and that teams find success going up the guts. The latter was true way back to the World Cup when England exploited it, and the former is pretty obvious to anyone with working eyes IMO. Hilarious that he went so overboard about the (admittedly lovely) bit of skill by Ntamack, like we've not seen it before from, erm, TJ Perenara to Beauden Barrett...

He never really comments on on-field decision making because he seems to think everything is a plan and so he totally ignores the very concept of on-field leadership & decision making under pressure, which IMO is a big miss when talking about the ABs.

Yeah ignore the annoying part... and it was a problem long before the world cup semi v England... it's been a problem since 2016/17... and I suspect we'll still be talking about it at the next world cup if Foster is still in charge...

[Ymx]

Sam Cane now signed up until 2025.

I’d be surprised if he can last given his brutal style, and the dreadful injuries he’s had.