It's 3 player's (including a current Yorkshire and England player)word against Vaughan's. Not sure that Panesar is qualified to say what did or did not happen. Especially as he is now a Daily Telegraph columnist as of course is Vaughan!!!
The Official Cricket Thread
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OomStruisbaai
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Pakistan Vernon Philander
Does he? Scored a nice ton against England in NZ a few years ago, but since then has averaged 11
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inactionman
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Yorkshire have canned pretty much the entire coaching setup - I was expecting a few heads to roll, but not quite this scale.
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/mart ... ff-1292123
https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/mart ... ff-1292123
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OomStruisbaai
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Thankfully for this
Jay Shah: India to tour SA for three Tests, three ODIs; T20Is to be played later https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/bcci ... er-1292188
Jay Shah: India to tour SA for three Tests, three ODIs; T20Is to be played later https://www.espncricinfo.com/story/bcci ... er-1292188
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Insane_Homer
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“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.”
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inactionman
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There's just something so captivating about gutlords pulling great catches out of the bag.
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Thor Sedan
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Think he got himself into trouble with some gambling problems - which I believe Yorkshire Cricket either helped pay off or helped sort him out. But this is now being spun as Yorkshire was actually being good and decent and that bad gambling and hard drinking Rafiq kinda deserved what happened to him cause he isn't a perfect human.
It is a typical Daily Mail optic.
Ahh, OK, thanks, honestly had no idea what it was referencing.Thor Sedan wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:33 pmThink he got himself into trouble with some gambling problems - which I believe Yorkshire Cricket either helped pay off or helped sort him out. But this is now being spun as Yorkshire was actually being good and decent and that bad gambling and hard drinking Rafiq kinda deserved what happened to him cause he isn't a perfect human.
It is a typical Daily Mail optic.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
It matters to the people affected by it, and it will impact any opinion you might form of Rafiq, and rightly so. But then, people only know who Rafiq is because of him exposing the rot at the heart of English cricket. It's a time-honoured tactic to smear the whistleblower.
As I said after you found out about the anti-semitic comments:
It is worth mentioning that the problem he exposed was that of institutional racism aimed at pretty much anyone non-white, and a cover-up assisted by the ECB who were more than happy to let Yorkshire investigate themselves and bury it as much as possible. Rafiq could well be a total arse, but what he's exposed is far bigger than him.
I'm not for a second conflating it with the Yorkshire issue. Bit surprised you would think that his own brand of shityness only matters to the people affected by it and can be described as just a smear tactic though.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:50 pmIt matters to the people affected by it, and it will impact any opinion you might form of Rafiq, and rightly so. But then, people only know who Rafiq is because of him exposing the rot at the heart of English cricket. It's a time-honoured tactic to smear the whistleblower.
As I said after you found out about the anti-semitic comments:
It is worth mentioning that the problem he exposed was that of institutional racism aimed at pretty much anyone non-white, and a cover-up assisted by the ECB who were more than happy to let Yorkshire investigate themselves and bury it as much as possible. Rafiq could well be a total arse, but what he's exposed is far bigger than him.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
His own brand of shittiness does indeed only matter to the people affected by it. And it's undeniably a smear tactic to dig up and publish every bit of dirt on the whistleblower. None of that excuses his behaviour. But the question is, why do you care about whether Rafiq is a good person or not? What will it change for you, particularly if you believe it has nothing to do with the Yorkshire issue?Slick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:10 pmI'm not for a second conflating it with the Yorkshire issue. Bit surprised you would think that his own brand of shityness only matters to the people affected by it and can be described as just a smear tactic though.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:50 pmIt matters to the people affected by it, and it will impact any opinion you might form of Rafiq, and rightly so. But then, people only know who Rafiq is because of him exposing the rot at the heart of English cricket. It's a time-honoured tactic to smear the whistleblower.
As I said after you found out about the anti-semitic comments:
It is worth mentioning that the problem he exposed was that of institutional racism aimed at pretty much anyone non-white, and a cover-up assisted by the ECB who were more than happy to let Yorkshire investigate themselves and bury it as much as possible. Rafiq could well be a total arse, but what he's exposed is far bigger than him.
So racism, for instance, isn't a societal issue, just one for the people affected by it?JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:12 pmHis own brand of shittiness does indeed only matter to the people affected by it. And it's undeniably a smear tactic to dig up and publish every bit of dirt on the whistleblower. None of that excuses his behaviour. But the question is, why do you care about whether Rafiq is a good person or not? What will it change for you, particularly if you believe it has nothing to do with the Yorkshire issue?Slick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:10 pmI'm not for a second conflating it with the Yorkshire issue. Bit surprised you would think that his own brand of shityness only matters to the people affected by it and can be described as just a smear tactic though.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 4:50 pm
It matters to the people affected by it, and it will impact any opinion you might form of Rafiq, and rightly so. But then, people only know who Rafiq is because of him exposing the rot at the heart of English cricket. It's a time-honoured tactic to smear the whistleblower.
As I said after you found out about the anti-semitic comments:
I've said twice now that it doesn't change anything for me about the Yorkshire issue. As you say, I knew nothing about him a few weeks ago and was disgusted about what has happened at Yorkshire, I now know more about him and am still disgusted by what happened at Yorkshire. I also think he sounds like a bit of an anti-Semitic sexual harasser and was surprised that this doesn't seem to bother you as much as it might in other cases.
All the money you made will never buy back your soul
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Paddington Bear
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Shitty attitude, considered to be fairly selfish, generally average bloke to be around a changing room with seems to be the consensus of those that don't like him. Some of the comments he made about him vs. Kane Williamson and how he would have had an England career (very, very dubious) are a bit of a window into it.
Doesn't change the seriousness of what he's uncovered at Yorkshire of course, and in fairness to him I think it has informed his position that he's not looking for a witch hunt.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
You have no idea how much it bothers me.Slick wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:26 pmSo racism, for instance, isn't a societal issue, just one for the people affected by it?JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 5:12 pmHis own brand of shittiness does indeed only matter to the people affected by it. And it's undeniably a smear tactic to dig up and publish every bit of dirt on the whistleblower. None of that excuses his behaviour. But the question is, why do you care about whether Rafiq is a good person or not? What will it change for you, particularly if you believe it has nothing to do with the Yorkshire issue?
I've said twice now that it doesn't change anything for me about the Yorkshire issue. As you say, I knew nothing about him a few weeks ago and was disgusted about what has happened at Yorkshire, I now know more about him and am still disgusted by what happened at Yorkshire. I also think he sounds like a bit of an anti-Semitic sexual harasser and was surprised that this doesn't seem to bother you as much as it might in other cases.
Some random bloke being racist to some other bloke matters to the people affected by it - directly or indirectly. I never said racism wasn't a societal issue, but it'd be a gigantic stretch to claim that Rafiq's anti-semitic remarks and sexting of a teenager are a societal issue rather than, well, him being a bit of a dickhead. He's one bloke. One neither of us knew before all this kicked off.
Edit: To put it another way - what is the wider importance of Rafiq's behaviour? Why is it of interest to us? Outside of being a whistleblower on Yorkshire's institutional racism (and the ECB's culpability), why does Rafiq matter to you or me? Outside of the Yorkshire issue, he's just another shitty bloke.
Ok, I’ll say the bleeding obvious (because I haven’t read social media responses on this), and let’s hear it.
His whistle blowing was about his experience of racism and how it affected him personally, in a very emotional plea. So it kind of makes it hypocritical and a far less powerful message based on his nasty anti-Semitic comments he casually made.
And I guess that him claiming he’s changed from saying it, and it was a long time ago also smacks of irony.
But I’m sure there is some ingrained lefty responses to this on other social media which I’m sure i will hear shortly ..
His whistle blowing was about his experience of racism and how it affected him personally, in a very emotional plea. So it kind of makes it hypocritical and a far less powerful message based on his nasty anti-Semitic comments he casually made.
And I guess that him claiming he’s changed from saying it, and it was a long time ago also smacks of irony.
But I’m sure there is some ingrained lefty responses to this on other social media which I’m sure i will hear shortly ..
You think the message that the institutional racism which infects, or infected, English cricket and affected scores of non white cricketers is a bad thing, is now diminish because one of the people who was affected by it made an anti-Semitic tweet. I think that says a lot about you.Ymx wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:13 pm Ok, I’ll say the bleeding obvious (because I haven’t read social media responses on this), and let’s hear it.
His whistle blowing was about his experience of racism and how it affected him personally, in a very emotional plea. So it kind of makes it hypocritical and a far less powerful message based on his nasty anti-Semitic comments he casually made.
And I guess that him claiming he’s changed from saying it, and it was a long time ago also smacks of irony.
But I’m sure there is some ingrained lefty responses to this on other social media which I’m sure i will hear shortly ..
Well I guess it shows that racist attitudes aren't the exclusive preserve of one community or another, but that just makes it more insidious and divisive. It doesn't change the fact that Yorkshire and wider cricket community need to root it out.Ymx wrote: ↑Mon Dec 06, 2021 7:13 pm Ok, I’ll say the bleeding obvious (because I haven’t read social media responses on this), and let’s hear it.
His whistle blowing was about his experience of racism and how it affected him personally, in a very emotional plea. So it kind of makes it hypocritical and a far less powerful message based on his nasty anti-Semitic comments he casually made.
And I guess that him claiming he’s changed from saying it, and it was a long time ago also smacks of irony.
But I’m sure there is some ingrained lefty responses to this on other social media which I’m sure i will hear shortly ..
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Torquemada 1420
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FFS. JM is absolutely correct.
Rafiq is obviously a bit of a dislikeable c**t but his personal actions only affected those he directed them at......... because they were personal actions.
What Rafiq has exposed (and his motivations are utterly irrelevant: this is not a personal injury court case....... or a bit of it might be ^^^ but is a sideshow) is an institutional rot. It's a far, far bigger deal. The fact that we are even arguing this shows how effective the distraction tactics are proving.
Rafiq is obviously a bit of a dislikeable c**t but his personal actions only affected those he directed them at......... because they were personal actions.
What Rafiq has exposed (and his motivations are utterly irrelevant: this is not a personal injury court case....... or a bit of it might be ^^^ but is a sideshow) is an institutional rot. It's a far, far bigger deal. The fact that we are even arguing this shows how effective the distraction tactics are proving.
Last edited by Torquemada 1420 on Wed Dec 08, 2021 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Torquemada 1420
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Paddington Bear
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I think it's hard for anyone involved in cricket not to acknowledge that Rafiq has raised some very serious issues with more than a ring of truth to them. Yorkshire has struck me throughout as particularly egregious but the general tone ('attitude' used to pick white players, 'you lot', calling Asian players English names etc) is pretty recognisable. Should have changed years ago and often hasn't.
My hope is that he's actually listened to and this results in positive change going forward rather than a deep dive into people's pasts. Cricket accomplishes nothing tearing itself apart, get this right and it could be a genuinely great tool for integration.
My hope is that he's actually listened to and this results in positive change going forward rather than a deep dive into people's pasts. Cricket accomplishes nothing tearing itself apart, get this right and it could be a genuinely great tool for integration.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
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Insane_Homer
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“Facts are meaningless. You could use facts to prove anything that's even remotely true.”
That'll teach him to run on the pitch!
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Torquemada 1420
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Sorry to see Ray Illingworth go the way he did.
Toss up for me whether he or Brearley was Eng's best ever captain. Won the Ashes in Aus back in the days when winning in Aus or NZ meant defeating bent umpiring too.
Toss up for me whether he or Brearley was Eng's best ever captain. Won the Ashes in Aus back in the days when winning in Aus or NZ meant defeating bent umpiring too.
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FalseBayFC
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Ngidi bowling well. He must be sitting at well over 100 kg though. Not great on the joints as a fast bowler. He's obviously had a great Dezemba.
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OomStruisbaai
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and you to.FalseBayFC wrote: ↑Sun Dec 26, 2021 11:59 am Ngidi bowling well. He must be sitting at well over 100 kg though. Not great on the joints as a fast bowler. He's obviously had a great Dezemba.
I do recall being frustrated - mostly due to his run rate not seemingly reflect the state of a match. And the run outs.
But he was a class player. Played through quite an era of change for the team.