The future for EV cars?..

[TB63]

Just watched Fifth Gear EV, Norwegian car manufacturer has invented a charging/refueling point that doesn't involve plugging in and waiting an eon. Drive up, press a button, computer takes over, parks your car, changes out battery pack for a fully charged one, 5 mins, never have to get out of the car..Game changer there...

[GogLais]

It certainly needs some sort of game changer where the charging/range issue is concerned. If I’m going to go electric anyway,

[TB63]

It was something else tbh.
Just need to get manufacturers to agree on standardisation of battery packs to possibly 5 or 6, then these changing stations could be everywhere.
Then Apple will launch a car where they change the type of pack every 12 months....

[GogLais]

It was something else tbh.
Just need to get manufacturers to agree on standardisation of battery packs to possibly 5 or 6

That'll be the sticking point of course, as far as I'm aware something as seemingly simple as the plug/socket arrangement isn't standardised at the moment. But at the least the major companies like VAG could have a modular battery system. I didn't see the programme - I'll try and catch it up.

[TB63]

Worth a watch.
Porsche against each other, 911 against 2 ton monster...

[GogLais]

The other thing is that like a lot of other people an EV would suit me fine for the vast majority of trips I do but ATM I'm not willing to accept the range restriction/complication for the odd trip I do to the wilder parts of the UK. There's a possible ownership model where I own an EV and hire an IC car for the longer trips but the trouble is that means dealing with car hire companies who in my experience are a bunch of thieves and vagabonds. I'm reasonably confident that the market will evolve - VW now offer hire cars but not at every dealer.

[TB63]

I'm in a position where an EV would suit me fine, do very little mileage these days.
But also can't wait to get the supercharger working on my hairdressers MK1 Miata..

[GogLais]

I'm in a position where an EV would suit me fine, do very little mileage these days.
But also can't wait to get the supercharger working on my hairdressers MK1 Miata..

That is the MX5 isn't it? Dare I mention the r word?

[TB63]

It's old.

It's yellow.

It's more fun than discovering another use for nipple clamps.

Yes it's an MX5..

[petej]

As a 2 car household my next car is 100% going to be electric. Will also add when my boiler goes kaput going to be replaced with air source heat pump.

[TB63]

How old is your house?

I'm all for ASHP, but, and it's a big but, only suits a certain type of house..

[petej]

How old is your house?

I'm all for ASHP, but, and it's a big but, only suits a certain type of house..

20-30years. I've updated all insulation to modern specs (cavity wall and roof insulation) in the last year.

[TB63]

You've no chance, but I'm about to log off and let's do this on another thread..

[petej]

You've no chance, but I'm about to log off and let's do this on another thread..

Fair enough but if that is the case the UK is absolutely fucked on the domestic heat front. I know it wouldn't be saving me any money. I know it wouldn't be a take out boiler and just replace with ashp.

[Farva]

Im thinking my next car will be electric, however, Im not convinced a system of replacing batteries at battery replacement stations is viable. The issue is that battery charge declines with age. How does that get managed with the replacement station - I wouldnt want my 1 year old battery replaced with a 10 year old battery with 20% less range on it.
Also, batteries can become dangerous if not cared for.

[PCPhil]

It’s an idea that has been around for a while but standardisation on batteries and connectors could be the killer. Might be too many evs out there before anyone takes it seriously.
I have also been told that diesel and petrol can be dangerous if not handled correctly.

[Kawazaki]

The thing that makes me laugh is the whole hypocrisy around EV cars. Firstly of course there's the whole concept of where the electricity comes from that charges EV cars, how do people think power stations generate electricity? Secondly however, is how we all view the car and what it is for. The size and weight of cars now is, frankly, obscene. Cars should be getting smaller and lighter but they've been going in the opposite direction for years. Cars with a huge mass require more energy to move and to stop, they will cause more damage when they crash, they do far more damage to roads and of course because they are so big they just take up more physical space so roads get narrower, more congested or impossible to pass.

We're all guilty of this. If we really gave a damn about the environment then cars would weigh no more than 1100kgs and would be significantly smaller. An electric AWD 4x4 7-seater that is 2mx5m is not the answer.

[charltom]

We're all guilty of this. If we really gave a damn about the environment then cars would weigh no more than 1100kgs and would be significantly smaller.

I've got two like that, and a motorbike. So I don't think we're "all guilty of this" Guilty of other things, maybe...!

[Raggs]

Don't think battery swaps will work to be honest, too many things to get in the way. I think it just takes a change in approach. We've got a tiny 22kwh battery, and did a 200km round trip not so long ago, simply stopping off at a tesco extra (free 7kwh chargers at most tesco extras) for a meal and a shop in each direction. OK, it's "only" 7kw, but since we planned it alongside the meal, it's not as though we were in a rush, and better yet, it was free. Met a guy who works at tescos with an EV, he'd done something like 4k miles and not paid a penny. Whenever the missus has a shift near our local tesco, she just parks there to charge for free.

More fast chargers will obviously help, but there's more and more all the time coming online.

[Biffer]

This would be what economists describe as commoditisation. It happened with cars as well - they had to all settle on one sort of fuel, and a refill nozzle and nozzle position that were all accessible and safe from the same pump. But it took a hell of a long time. It might happen quicker for EV as car manufacturers would rather buy components than manufacture them themselves where they can, so once a small number of battery manufacturers become dominant, they will start to make their batteries interchangeable so that they can compete for supply contracts without the car maker having to alter their design.

[Torquemada 1420]

It was something else tbh.
Just need to get manufacturers to agree on standardisation of battery packs to possibly 5 or 6, then these changing stations could be everywhere.
Then Apple will launch a car where they change the type of pack every 12 months....

Good luck with that. 4 decades into portable computers and we still can't agree on a common power connector.

[Raggs]

This would be what economists describe as commoditisation. It happened with cars as well - they had to all settle on one sort of fuel, and a refill nozzle and nozzle position that were all accessible and safe from the same pump. But it took a hell of a long time. It might happen quicker for EV as car manufacturers would rather buy components than manufacture them themselves where they can, so once a small number of battery manufacturers become dominant, they will start to make their batteries interchangeable so that they can compete for supply contracts without the car maker having to alter their design.

There's already been a general mass agreement though, on the charging sockets. At first there were quite a few types, now virtually every car uses the type 2.

Swapping in and out enormous battery packs requires the entire design of the car to be adjusted, that's a long way from simply agreeing a nozzle/socket shape.

[Biffer]

This would be what economists describe as commoditisation. It happened with cars as well - they had to all settle on one sort of fuel, and a refill nozzle and nozzle position that were all accessible and safe from the same pump. But it took a hell of a long time. It might happen quicker for EV as car manufacturers would rather buy components than manufacture them themselves where they can, so once a small number of battery manufacturers become dominant, they will start to make their batteries interchangeable so that they can compete for supply contracts without the car maker having to alter their design.

There's already been a general mass agreement though, on the charging sockets. At first there were quite a few types, now virtually every car uses the type 2.

Swapping in and out enormous battery packs requires the entire design of the car to be adjusted, that's a long way from simply agreeing a nozzle/socket shape.

Yeah, at the moment. Like I said, commoditisation can take a long time. And sometimes doesn't happen. It's driven by what's of benefit to the manufacturer so it balances out competitive advantage against consumer benefit in some ways, i.e. is it worth me paying more for this better car versus a not so good performance but easier charging.

[Glaston]

It was something else tbh.
Just need to get manufacturers to agree on standardisation of battery packs to possibly 5 or 6, then these changing stations could be everywhere.
Then Apple will launch a car where they change the type of pack every 12 months....

Apple battery change would mean a whole new engine as well.

[Raggs]

This would be what economists describe as commoditisation. It happened with cars as well - they had to all settle on one sort of fuel, and a refill nozzle and nozzle position that were all accessible and safe from the same pump. But it took a hell of a long time. It might happen quicker for EV as car manufacturers would rather buy components than manufacture them themselves where they can, so once a small number of battery manufacturers become dominant, they will start to make their batteries interchangeable so that they can compete for supply contracts without the car maker having to alter their design.

There's already been a general mass agreement though, on the charging sockets. At first there were quite a few types, now virtually every car uses the type 2.

Swapping in and out enormous battery packs requires the entire design of the car to be adjusted, that's a long way from simply agreeing a nozzle/socket shape.

Yeah, at the moment. Like I said, commoditisation can take a long time. And sometimes doesn't happen. It's driven by what's of benefit to the manufacturer so it balances out competitive advantage against consumer benefit in some ways, i.e. is it worth me paying more for this better car versus a not so good performance but easier charging.

Unless battery packs become suitcase sized, I simply don't see it happening at all. Not when it's easier to simply charge faster.

[Biffer]

There's already been a general mass agreement though, on the charging sockets. At first there were quite a few types, now virtually every car uses the type 2.

Swapping in and out enormous battery packs requires the entire design of the car to be adjusted, that's a long way from simply agreeing a nozzle/socket shape.

Yeah, at the moment. Like I said, commoditisation can take a long time. And sometimes doesn't happen. It's driven by what's of benefit to the manufacturer so it balances out competitive advantage against consumer benefit in some ways, i.e. is it worth me paying more for this better car versus a not so good performance but easier charging.

Unless battery packs become suitcase sized, I simply don't see it happening at all. Not when it's easier to simply charge faster.

That's the problem though - charging faster is very difficult.

[Torquemada 1420]

That's the problem though - charging faster is very difficult.

Dangerous and expensive too.

[Raggs]

That's the problem though - charging faster is very difficult.

More difficult than shrinking batteries down to suitcase size, and designing them to be hot swappable across a range of manufacturers, who have to arrange their designs to incorporate that? Likely requiring everyone to use the same batteries, since you don't want you top of the line battery pack being swapped for some cheap chinese knock off equivalent.

[Biffer]

That's the problem though - charging faster is very difficult.

More difficult than shrinking batteries down to suitcase size, and designing them to be hot swappable across a range of manufacturers, who have to arrange their designs to incorporate that? Likely requiring everyone to use the same batteries, since you don't want you top of the line battery pack being swapped for some cheap chinese knock off equivalent.

That's the balance that we don't know the answer to. Entirely possible that we end up with a hybrid model, where you have your main batteries but can swap out a suitcase sized pack to extend range or in an emergency. If you know the future you can make a lot of money out of it.

[Kawazaki]

This would be what economists describe as commoditisation. It happened with cars as well - they had to all settle on one sort of fuel, and a refill nozzle and nozzle position that were all accessible and safe from the same pump. But it took a hell of a long time. It might happen quicker for EV as car manufacturers would rather buy components than manufacture them themselves where they can, so once a small number of battery manufacturers become dominant, they will start to make their batteries interchangeable so that they can compete for supply contracts without the car maker having to alter their design.

Trouble is, Tesla/Musk are a way ahead regards battery development and factory tooling. In fact, I've heard Tesla described as a battery company who sell cars rather than vice-versa. Can you see the big motorcar manufacturers letting Tesla be the lead?

[ASMO]

This would be what economists describe as commoditisation. It happened with cars as well - they had to all settle on one sort of fuel, and a refill nozzle and nozzle position that were all accessible and safe from the same pump. But it took a hell of a long time. It might happen quicker for EV as car manufacturers would rather buy components than manufacture them themselves where they can, so once a small number of battery manufacturers become dominant, they will start to make their batteries interchangeable so that they can compete for supply contracts without the car maker having to alter their design.

Trouble is, Tesla/Musk are a way ahead regards battery development and factory tooling. In fact, I've heard Tesla described as a battery company who sell cars rather than vice-versa. Can you see the big motorcar manufacturers letting Tesla be the lead?

The way the prices of Electricity has gone up, Electric cars may not be economically viable soon.

[PCPhil]

The future is coal and steam boilers. You heard it here first.

[Raggs]

This would be what economists describe as commoditisation. It happened with cars as well - they had to all settle on one sort of fuel, and a refill nozzle and nozzle position that were all accessible and safe from the same pump. But it took a hell of a long time. It might happen quicker for EV as car manufacturers would rather buy components than manufacture them themselves where they can, so once a small number of battery manufacturers become dominant, they will start to make their batteries interchangeable so that they can compete for supply contracts without the car maker having to alter their design.

Trouble is, Tesla/Musk are a way ahead regards battery development and factory tooling. In fact, I've heard Tesla described as a battery company who sell cars rather than vice-versa. Can you see the big motorcar manufacturers letting Tesla be the lead?

The way the prices of Electricity has gone up, Electric cars may not be economically viable soon.

Only if petrol starts dropping, which it's not been doing (generally the opposite).

[Insane_Homer]

best I've seen, internal combustion Hydroden engines. might just save motor racing as it still makes a noise but produces water!

[Raggs]

best I've seen, internal combustion Hydroden engines. might just save motor racing as it still makes a noise but produces water!

Makes water, but uses energy to produce the hydrogen anyway, and it's a bugger to store.

[Insane_Homer]

Makes water, but uses energy to produce the hydrogen anyway, and it's a bugger to store.

yes, it's very much still in it's infancy. certainly clean, green, cheap hydrogen production is problematic but a problem worth solving in the long run.

[TB63]

Makes water, but uses energy to produce the hydrogen anyway, and it's a bugger to store.

yes, it's very much still in it's infancy. certainly clean, green, cheap hydrogen production is problematic but a problem worth solving in the long run.

Vaguely remember seeing a documentary on some Japanese island that is 100% hydrogen. All electric is generated with hydro, so ultimate green..

[Raggs]

Makes water, but uses energy to produce the hydrogen anyway, and it's a bugger to store.

yes, it's very much still in it's infancy. certainly clean, green, cheap hydrogen production is problematic but a problem worth solving in the long run.

Vaguely remember seeing a documentary on some Japanese island that is 100% hydrogen. All electric is generated with hydro, so ultimate green..

Think most hydrogen is actually produced from fossil fuels at the moment, so not green at all. I was going for a best case, where we start using electrolysis.

[TB63]

yes, it's very much still in it's infancy. certainly clean, green, cheap hydrogen production is problematic but a problem worth solving in the long run.

Vaguely remember seeing a documentary on some Japanese island that is 100% hydrogen. All electric is generated with hydro, so ultimate green..

Think most hydrogen is actually produced from fossil fuels at the moment, so not green at all. I was going for a best case, where we start using electrolysis.

I was talking about that Japanese island..

[Marylandolorian]

Tesla 3 is doing well in the UK.

https://www.motor1.com/news/561841/best ... orld-2021/