Calcutta Cup match thread

[clydecloggie]

Should be quite a back row tussle. Back our side 1-15.

It's a relatively weak England team with few proven names compared to other seasons. Lack of international experience could tell if it's a close game - which it is likely to be.

But I'd feel dirty and stupid saying Scotland are favourites, even if they've maybe deserved that tag in the last four years of this fixture.

So really close 50/50 game; England's greater physicality could win it in rotten weather, or Scotland's greater experience at this level could win it in the last 20.

[weegie01]

I'd have started Bradbury over Fagerson for a bit more bulk in the forecast conditions, I still think Tuipulotu is not ready for this level, and have not the faintest idea about White. But there are no obvious weaknesses on the pitch or bench. When was that last true?

I'll stick my neck out and say that sub front row will be a step up in the scrums.

[Margin__Walker]

No major surprises in the Scotland selection, perhaps a couple of slightly raised eyebrows, just a flicker.

I know nothing about Ben White other than the fact he plays for 'Irish.

Ben White's decent. Was a big prospect early on playing for Leicester at 17 and being a key figure in a good Eng U20s team. Found himself down the pecking order last season though, hence the move to LI.

He's mostly played back up to Phipps, but has looked very good. Decent service and basics. He's also pretty direct and likes to challenge the ruck defence. Couple of the tries he's scored this year below.

[Mahoney]

It's a relatively weak England team

Wouldn't be my take. Happier with several key selections than I have been for a long time. Youngs is a perennial sore, and not sure about Isiekwe & Ludlam; other than that my concern would be a lack of power in the centres, it's a backline to play fast and loose and not sure whether the weather is going to support that. Even when the weather's fine it's always nice to have a centre who can crash it up when nothing's on.

[ASMO]

Anyone going to try a head to head scoring?

[clydecloggie]

It's a relatively weak England team

Wouldn't be my take. Happier with several key selections than I have been for a long time. Youngs is a perennial sore, and not sure about Isiekwe & Ludlam; other than that my concern would be a lack of power in the centres, it's a backline to play fast and loose and not sure whether the weather is going to support that. Even when the weather's fine it's always nice to have a centre who can crash it up when nothing's on.

'Relatively' does a lot of heavy lifting in that sentence. And compared to the household names that populated a RWC-finalist team up until very recently, that line-up doesn't scream world class to me.

[Slick]

It's a relatively weak England team

Wouldn't be my take. Happier with several key selections than I have been for a long time. Youngs is a perennial sore, and not sure about Isiekwe & Ludlam; other than that my concern would be a lack of power in the centres, it's a backline to play fast and loose and not sure whether the weather is going to support that. Even when the weather's fine it's always nice to have a centre who can crash it up when nothing's on.

So other that the scrum half, back row, 2nd row and centres you would disagree?

[Mahoney]

I mentioned 4 out of 15; you've upgraded that to 8 / 15, which seems odd.

[sockwithaticket]

Fans' recognition of the names isn't a particularly good metric of whether the team's any good. Youngs is well known and he's regularly a complete hinderance. Mako Vunipola remained a mediocre, often dodgy, scrummager his whole career.

A bloke you've never heard of can absolutely be better than the established player who's been hung onto due to their experience and loyalty of the coach rather than form.

[Slick]

I mentioned 4 out of 15; you've upgraded that to 8 / 15, which seems odd.

Just pulling your plonker old boy

[weegie01]

Anyone going to try a head to head scoring?

I would but I'd end up depressed when I realised how superior England are. Motivated by last year's narrow defeat, it is their's to lose.

[JM2K6]

Have to say I'm in agreement with the Scots here: it's not a great looking England team when you consider the changes + a few punts on form/fitness/whatever, and Scotland should be confident of a decent win.

Would be nice to not have new centres every fucking week. And for an attacking team to be allowed to attack.

[Big D]

Anyone going to try a head to head scoring?

I would but I think it is marginal either way in most positions and haven't seen enough of all the players recently. For example I've heard that Sinckler hasn't been close to his best but that could just be hearsay.

The obvious standout differences are a 2, 8 and 9. I think LCD (and George) and Simmonds would start for Scotland and Price would start for England. The two best second rows in the match are Itoje and Gray (if he's fit) and I thinknwed be splitting hairs in most positions.

This game should be close. Would expect the weather to help England more than Scotland but if either side is blown away then major questions should be asked.

One match up that I think could be absolutely key is Ford v Kinghorn off the bench if Finn doesn't last 80. Ford is an in form, experienced international with a good kicking game. Kinghorn an in form very recent full time convert to 10 with a big but inconsistent boot.

[Big D]

Marler v Nel at scrum time could be good too.

[Tichtheid]

Doing objective head to head scoring is nigh on impossible - eg, Hamish Watson hasn't missed a tackle for Scotland getting on for three years now. It's been 700 minutes since he last conceded a penalty in the six nations, Over the last two years, he has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.
That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.
He wins headline-grabbing turnovers at crucial moments and has earned the name "Pinball" due to his bouncing defenders when carrying.

(These figures were compiled by the Glasgow stats guy Disco last summer)


Still, I would wager most England fans will pick Curry in a head to head.

I'm not arguing for Watson here, just thinking that it's very difficult to not pick your own man over the opposition

[Kawazaki]

Doing objective head to head scoring is nigh on impossible - eg, Hamish Watson hasn't missed a tackle for Scotland getting on for three years now. It's been 700 minutes since he last conceded a penalty in the six nations, Over the last two years, he has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.
That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.
He wins headline-grabbing turnovers at crucial moments and has earned the name "Pinball" due to his bouncing defenders when carrying.

(These figures were compiled by the Glasgow stats guy Disco last summer)


Still, I would wager most England fans will pick Curry in a head to head.

I'm not arguing for Watson here, just thinking that it's very difficult to not pick your own man over the opposition

You forgot to add that Watson is also English.

[Tichtheid]

Doing objective head to head scoring is nigh on impossible - eg, Hamish Watson hasn't missed a tackle for Scotland getting on for three years now. It's been 700 minutes since he last conceded a penalty in the six nations, Over the last two years, he has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.
That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.
He wins headline-grabbing turnovers at crucial moments and has earned the name "Pinball" due to his bouncing defenders when carrying.

(These figures were compiled by the Glasgow stats guy Disco last summer)


Still, I would wager most England fans will pick Curry in a head to head.

I'm not arguing for Watson here, just thinking that it's very difficult to not pick your own man over the opposition

You forgot to add that Watson is also English.

Jesus was born in a byre, it didnae make him a cow.

[Biffer]

Doing objective head to head scoring is nigh on impossible - eg, Hamish Watson hasn't missed a tackle for Scotland getting on for three years now. It's been 700 minutes since he last conceded a penalty in the six nations, Over the last two years, he has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.
That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.
He wins headline-grabbing turnovers at crucial moments and has earned the name "Pinball" due to his bouncing defenders when carrying.

(These figures were compiled by the Glasgow stats guy Disco last summer)


Still, I would wager most England fans will pick Curry in a head to head.

I'm not arguing for Watson here, just thinking that it's very difficult to not pick your own man over the opposition

You forgot to add that Watson is also English.

So Marcus Smith should be playing for the Philippines?

[Kawazaki]

Doing objective head to head scoring is nigh on impossible - eg, Hamish Watson hasn't missed a tackle for Scotland getting on for three years now. It's been 700 minutes since he last conceded a penalty in the six nations, Over the last two years, he has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.
That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.
He wins headline-grabbing turnovers at crucial moments and has earned the name "Pinball" due to his bouncing defenders when carrying.

(These figures were compiled by the Glasgow stats guy Disco last summer)


Still, I would wager most England fans will pick Curry in a head to head.

I'm not arguing for Watson here, just thinking that it's very difficult to not pick your own man over the opposition

You forgot to add that Watson is also English.

So Marcus Smith should be playing for the Philippines?

If he grew up there, went to school there, learnt to play rugby there and came through the Philippines rugby system then he'd be a great role model for Philippines rugby.

[Happyhooker]

Doing objective head to head scoring is nigh on impossible - eg, Hamish Watson hasn't missed a tackle for Scotland getting on for three years now. It's been 700 minutes since he last conceded a penalty in the six nations, Over the last two years, he has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.
That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.
He wins headline-grabbing turnovers at crucial moments and has earned the name "Pinball" due to his bouncing defenders when carrying.

(These figures were compiled by the Glasgow stats guy Disco last summer)


Still, I would wager most England fans will pick Curry in a head to head.

I'm not arguing for Watson here, just thinking that it's very difficult to not pick your own man over the opposition

You forgot to add that Watson is also English.

Jesus was born in a byre, it didnae make him a cow.

Alas he wasn't. That was a mistranslation

[Paddington Bear]

Should be quite a back row tussle. Back our side 1-15.

It's a relatively weak England team with few proven names compared to other seasons. Lack of international experience could tell if it's a close game - which it is likely to be.

But I'd feel dirty and stupid saying Scotland are favourites, even if they've maybe deserved that tag in the last four years of this fixture.

So really close 50/50 game; England's greater physicality could win it in rotten weather, or Scotland's greater experience at this level could win it in the last 20.

Inexperienced yes, weak no. Someone like Isiekwe is an excellent player playing alongside his club colleague so am fairly confident he'll go well.

Think Ticht raises a good point on head to heads, would add in that we always tend to remember excellent performances by our own players more than those of other teams, emotional investment is a hell of a thing.

[Mahoney]

The bit I think is odd about head to heads is that there are plenty of positions on the pitch where you mostly aren't in direct competition with your opposite number.

Tight head faces off with loose head at the scrum
Hooker is up against the opposition jumpers at the lineout, not the other hooker
Scrum-half is up against guards at the ruck / flankers at the scrum
Fly-half is rarely tackled by the opposition 10, though they occasionally exchange kick tennis when they are both dropping back to cover

Half the game is about engineering mismatches so 8 is running over 10, or 13 running past 3.

I guess it can serve as a sort of proxy measure for the quality gap between the teams as a whole, but it's pretty arbitrary. You'd be better off awarding each player points out of 5 or something & then totalling the points to compare the two sides.

[Biffer]

You forgot to add that Watson is also English.

So Marcus Smith should be playing for the Philippines?

If he grew up there, went to school there, learnt to play rugby there and came through the Philippines rugby system then he'd be a great role model for Philippines rugby.

Oh, so it's not just where you're born then. You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

[Kawazaki]

So Marcus Smith should be playing for the Philippines?

If he grew up there, went to school there, learnt to play rugby there and came through the Philippines rugby system then he'd be a great role model for Philippines rugby.

Oh, so it's not just where you're born then. You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

[Slick]

Doing objective head to head scoring is nigh on impossible - eg, Hamish Watson hasn't missed a tackle for Scotland getting on for three years now. It's been 700 minutes since he last conceded a penalty in the six nations, Over the last two years, he has carried or passed/offloaded the ball 231 times for Scotland and only conceded 8 turnovers.
That’s a turnover for every 28.9 carries / passes / offloads or a turnover every 148 minutes – not far off just one per two full games played.
He wins headline-grabbing turnovers at crucial moments and has earned the name "Pinball" due to his bouncing defenders when carrying.

(These figures were compiled by the Glasgow stats guy Disco last summer)


Still, I would wager most England fans will pick Curry in a head to head.

I'm not arguing for Watson here, just thinking that it's very difficult to not pick your own man over the opposition

You forgot to add that Watson is also English.

You could have picked a couple, but Watson is a really, really bad example

[Biffer]

If he grew up there, went to school there, learnt to play rugby there and came through the Philippines rugby system then he'd be a great role model for Philippines rugby.

Oh, so it's not just where you're born then. You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

It's ok, we understand you're going to change the rules whatever anyone on here says, and that's fine, you carry on.

[Slick]

If he grew up there, went to school there, learnt to play rugby there and came through the Philippines rugby system then he'd be a great role model for Philippines rugby.

Oh, so it's not just where you're born then. You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

Oh, Toga is having one of “those” days. He tries so hard to keep it together then, pop, out it all comes like a baby clearing some wind

[Happyhooker]

The bit I think is odd about head to heads is that there are plenty of positions on the pitch where you mostly aren't in direct competition with your opposite number.

Tight head faces off with loose head at the scrum
Hooker is up against the opposition jumpers at the lineout, not the other hooker
Scrum-half is up against guards at the ruck / flankers at the scrum
Fly-half is rarely tackled by the opposition 10, though they occasionally exchange kick tennis when they are both dropping back to cover

Half the game is about engineering mismatches so 8 is running over 10, or 13 running past 3.

I guess it can serve as a sort of proxy measure for the quality gap between the teams as a whole, but it's pretty arbitrary. You'd be better off awarding each player points out of 5 or something & then totalling the points to compare the two sides.

Good luck telling a hooker after a game that he wasn't playing against the opposition hooker

[Paddington Bear]

You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

This will be the bored's epitaph.

[Crash669]

The bit I think is odd about head to heads is that there are plenty of positions on the pitch where you mostly aren't in direct competition with your opposite number.

Tight head faces off with loose head at the scrum
Hooker is up against the opposition jumpers at the lineout, not the other hooker
Scrum-half is up against guards at the ruck / flankers at the scrum
Fly-half is rarely tackled by the opposition 10, though they occasionally exchange kick tennis when they are both dropping back to cover

Half the game is about engineering mismatches so 8 is running over 10, or 13 running past 3.

I guess it can serve as a sort of proxy measure for the quality gap between the teams as a whole, but it's pretty arbitrary. You'd be better off awarding each player points out of 5 or something & then totalling the points to compare the two sides.

Good luck telling a hooker after a game that he wasn't playing against the opposition hooker

Tbf anything beyond one syllable and you've lost the whole front row.

[Kawazaki]

Oh, so it's not just where you're born then. You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

Oh, Toga is having one of “those” days. He tries so hard to keep it together then, pop, out it all comes like a baby clearing some wind

No it's not. How many of the Scottish squad were developed as youth players in Scotland?

A few is no problem, but poaching is now the default development plan for Scottish players. It's not sustainable of course so when they run out, which they will, the lack of underlying systems with crucify Scotland.

[SaintK]

You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

This will be the bored's epitaph.

well said

[Kawazaki]

Ewan Ashman (Canada) – Parent
WP Nel (South Africa) – Residency
Pierre Schoeman (South Africa) – Residency
Javan Sebastian (Wales) – Parent
Sam Skinner (England) – Parent
Josh Bayliss (England) – Grandparent
Andy Christie (England) – Grandparent
Nick Haining (Australia) – Grandparent
Hamish Watson (England) – Grandparent
Ali Price (England) – Parent
Ben Vellacott (England) – Parent
Ben White (England) - Grandparent
Chris Harris (England) – Grandparent
Rory Hutchinson (England) – Parent
Sam Johnson (Australia) – Residency
Cameron Redpath (France) – Parent
Sione Tuipulotu (Australia) – Grandparent
Rufus McLean (USA) – Parent
Kyle Rowe (England) – Parent
Kyle Steyn (South Africa) – Parent
Duhan van de Merwe (South Africa) – Residency

[robmatic]

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

Oh, Toga is having one of “those” days. He tries so hard to keep it together then, pop, out it all comes like a baby clearing some wind

No it's not. How many of the Scottish squad were developed as youth players in Scotland?

A few is no problem, but poaching is now the default development plan for Scottish players. It's not sustainable of course so when they run out, which they will, the lack of underlying systems with crucify Scotland.

Youth development in Scotland is currently better than it's ever been in the professional era. The main issue is primarily the numbers, as rugby is a minority sport in a small country. The setup there has actually been producing more and better players in recent years. Ten of the starting 15 on Saturday and arguably all of the world class ones are homegrown.

[Biffer]

Oh, Toga is having one of “those” days. He tries so hard to keep it together then, pop, out it all comes like a baby clearing some wind

No it's not. How many of the Scottish squad were developed as youth players in Scotland?

A few is no problem, but poaching is now the default development plan for Scottish players. It's not sustainable of course so when they run out, which they will, the lack of underlying systems with crucify Scotland.

Youth development in Scotland is currently better than it's ever been in the professional era. The main issue is primarily the numbers, as rugby is a minority sport in a small country. The setup there has actually been producing more and better players in recent years. Ten of the starting 15 on Saturday and arguably all of the world class ones are homegrown.

Just leave him to howl at the moon. It doesn't matter what you say, he'll just change his argument so he can abuse you, run away shouting 'I won mommy' and masturbate in a corner.

[sockwithaticket]

How a player sounds is always an interesting one, it tends to be indicative of where they did most of their growing up. You see some of the chatter about Lynagh potentially playing for Italy or Australia, but you just have to listen to the kid - he's very English. Similarly I've seen Kiwis displaying their typical wilful ignorance of the game up here assuming Umaga's a poach, but to hear him talk he is, again, very English.

That's not really to weigh in on where someone might feel their allegiance belongs, it's just something I've noticed.

Another slightly tangential comment, I was always amazed at the number of Welsh who came out of the woodwork at uni during the 6 Nations. People with a variety of regional accents, none of which were remotely Welsh, putting their firm support behind the men in red. Most of those I spoke to were a quarter Welsh (or grandaparent qualification as it were). Usually it seemed to be a dad passing on their allegiance and it begs an interesting question of how far down the line it can be passed. Someone can be brought up to cheer for a team they have an increasingly distant blood connection to, but that's why these debates always get a bit messy; it's not all about blood or birthplace.

[SaintK]

Oh, Toga is having one of “those” days. He tries so hard to keep it together then, pop, out it all comes like a baby clearing some wind

No it's not. How many of the Scottish squad were developed as youth players in Scotland?

A few is no problem, but poaching is now the default development plan for Scottish players. It's not sustainable of course so when they run out, which they will, the lack of underlying systems with crucify Scotland.

Youth development in Scotland is currently better than it's ever been in the professional era. The main issue is primarily the numbers, as rugby is a minority sport in a small country. The setup there has actually been producing more and better players in recent years. Ten of the starting 15 on Saturday and arguably all of the world class ones are homegrown.

That's interesting, who are they?
Think there is probably just about one in the England squad despite the size of the player pool

[Slick]

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

Oh, Toga is having one of “those” days. He tries so hard to keep it together then, pop, out it all comes like a baby clearing some wind

No it's not. How many of the Scottish squad were developed as youth players in Scotland?

A few is no problem, but poaching is now the default development plan for Scottish players. It's not sustainable of course so when they run out, which they will, the lack of underlying systems with crucify Scotland.

Want some warm milk?

[Big D]

How a player sounds is always an interesting one, it tends to be indicative of where they did most of their growing up. You see some of the chatter about Lynagh potentially playing for Italy or Australia, but you just have to listen to the kid - he's very English. Similarly I've seen Kiwis displaying their typical wilful ignorance of the game up here assuming Umaga's a poach, but to hear him talk he is, again, very English.

That's not really to weigh in on where someone might feel their allegiance belongs, it's just something I've noticed.

Another slightly tangential comment, I was always amazed at the number of Welsh who came out of the woodwork at uni during the 6 Nations. People with a variety of regional accents, none of which were remotely Welsh, putting their firm support behind the men in red. Most of those I spoke to were a quarter Welsh (or grandaparent qualification as it were). Usually it seemed to be a dad passing on their allegiance and it begs an interesting question of how far down the line it can be passed. Someone can be brought up to cheer for a team they have an increasingly distant blood connection to, but that's why these debates always get a bit messy; it's not all about blood or birthplace.

Correct.

Gabby Logan spoke about this on the rugby pod. She is English born, supports Wales, Kenny supports Scotland. Their son plays for Wasps academy and if he makes it will have an interesting decision.

The world is a much smaller place than it was, Scottish people regularly move around the world, but especially within the UK+I. I dare say that's why the London Exile clubs became a thing.

Given the small player pool, and then mobility of the Scottish population in getting out the country to better themselves, for jobs or travel we are always going to have non Scots born players. Especially sons of ex players.

Some of those listed have come right through age grade teams and played 7s too. It isn't like they have all been grabbed at 26.

[Lobby]

Ewan Ashman (Canada) – Parent
WP Nel (South Africa) – Residency
Pierre Schoeman (South Africa) – Residency
Javan Sebastian (Wales) – Parent
Sam Skinner (England) – Parent
Josh Bayliss (England) – Grandparent
Andy Christie (England) – Grandparent
Nick Haining (Australia) – Grandparent
Hamish Watson (England) – Grandparent
Ali Price (England) – Parent
Ben Vellacott (England) – Parent
Ben White (England) - Grandparent
Chris Harris (England) – Grandparent
Rory Hutchinson (England) – Parent
Sam Johnson (Australia) – Residency
Cameron Redpath (France) – Parent
Sione Tuipulotu (Australia) – Grandparent
Rufus McLean (USA) – Parent
Kyle Rowe (England) – Parent
Kyle Steyn (South Africa) – Parent
Duhan van de Merwe (South Africa) – Residency

I take it from this that you think that when Cameron Redpath played for England under 20s in 2018 and 2019, and when he was selected for an England tour of South Africa, he was a poach from France?