Calcutta Cup match thread

[Biffer]

Ewan Ashman (Canada) – Parent
WP Nel (South Africa) – Residency
Pierre Schoeman (South Africa) – Residency
Javan Sebastian (Wales) – Parent
Sam Skinner (England) – Parent
Josh Bayliss (England) – Grandparent
Andy Christie (England) – Grandparent
Nick Haining (Australia) – Grandparent
Hamish Watson (England) – Grandparent
Ali Price (England) – Parent
Ben Vellacott (England) – Parent
Ben White (England) - Grandparent
Chris Harris (England) – Grandparent
Rory Hutchinson (England) – Parent
Sam Johnson (Australia) – Residency
Cameron Redpath (France) – Parent
Sione Tuipulotu (Australia) – Grandparent
Rufus McLean (USA) – Parent
Kyle Rowe (England) – Parent
Kyle Steyn (South Africa) – Parent
Duhan van de Merwe (South Africa) – Residency

I take it from this that you think that when Cameron Redpath played for England under 20s in 2018 and 2019, and when he was selected for an England tour of South Africa, he was a poach from France?

Toga rule change incoming…..

[Punter15]

If he grew up there, went to school there, learnt to play rugby there and came through the Philippines rugby system then he'd be a great role model for Philippines rugby.

Oh, so it's not just where you're born then. You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

We’ve got two teams. Get over yourself.

[Slick]

Oh, so it's not just where you're born then. You've got a whole set of arbitrary rules that you'll change at a moment's notice to pretend you were right.

I understand, thanks for clarifying.

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

We’ve got two teams. Get over yourself.

I think he is on to something. We need to develop a system where kids from the age of 5 (maybe 4) are transported to Scotland, from wherever their Scottish parents are living round the world, to some kind of boarding institution where they must stay until we can ascertain for sure if they want to play rugby or not.

[Big D]

No it's not. How many of the Scottish squad were developed as youth players in Scotland?

A few is no problem, but poaching is now the default development plan for Scottish players. It's not sustainable of course so when they run out, which they will, the lack of underlying systems with crucify Scotland.

Youth development in Scotland is currently better than it's ever been in the professional era. The main issue is primarily the numbers, as rugby is a minority sport in a small country. The setup there has actually been producing more and better players in recent years. Ten of the starting 15 on Saturday and arguably all of the world class ones are homegrown.

That's interesting, who are they?
Think there is probably just about one in the England squad despite the size of the player pool

I'd guess Hogg and Finn.

Watson is an interesting one I suppose. Joined Edinburgh at 20, played 7s and u20s but it took us 4 years to knock the Leicester out of him and get him to an acceptable standard.

[Big D]

Ewan Ashman (Canada) – Parent
WP Nel (South Africa) – Residency
Pierre Schoeman (South Africa) – Residency
Javan Sebastian (Wales) – Parent
Sam Skinner (England) – Parent
Josh Bayliss (England) – Grandparent
Andy Christie (England) – Grandparent
Nick Haining (Australia) – Grandparent
Hamish Watson (England) – Grandparent
Ali Price (England) – Parent
Ben Vellacott (England) – Parent
Ben White (England) - Grandparent
Chris Harris (England) – Grandparent
Rory Hutchinson (England) – Parent
Sam Johnson (Australia) – Residency
Cameron Redpath (France) – Parent
Sione Tuipulotu (Australia) – Grandparent
Rufus McLean (USA) – Parent
Kyle Rowe (England) – Parent
Kyle Steyn (South Africa) – Parent
Duhan van de Merwe (South Africa) – Residency

I take it from this that you think that when Cameron Redpath played for England under 20s in 2018 and 2019, and when he was selected for an England tour of South Africa, he was a poach from France?

Given he repped Scotland at 16s and 18s first, did you poach him from us then? Or did we poach him from France? Or did you poach him from France, we from you, you from us and then us back from you?

Gets a bit confusing this malarkey.

Edit: worth noting, Redpath chose Scotland the minute his club contract secure. The sale 5 year deal, his first as a pro, was nice but when Bath pay 6 figures for him that freed him to chose without any real blow back from the club.

[Punter15]

Look, the composition of the Scottish rugby squad is frankly a disgrace. The SRU spend more money employing ancestral analysts than rugby coaches.

If you're going to blow smoke up a poached players arse as though Scottish rugby had anything to do with it then just own it when called out on it.

We’ve got two teams. Get over yourself.

I think he is on to something. We need to develop a system where kids from the age of 5 (maybe 4) are transported to Scotland, from wherever their Scottish parents are living round the world, to some kind of boarding institution where they must stay until we can ascertain for sure if they want to play rugby or not.

Excellent idea. Traditionally all ‘European’ All Blacks are essentially Scots who know how to score tries, so we should open up some repatriation camps, and sprinkle in anyone else we like the look of with promise of possible caps and a date with Karen Gillan.

[sockwithaticket]

We’ve got two teams. Get over yourself.

I think he is on to something. We need to develop a system where kids from the age of 5 (maybe 4) are transported to Scotland, from wherever their Scottish parents are living round the world, to some kind of boarding institution where they must stay until we can ascertain for sure if they want to play rugby or not.

Excellent idea. Traditionally all ‘European’ All Blacks are essentially Scots who know how to score tries, so we should open up some repatriation camps, and sprinkle in anyone else we like the look of with promise of possible caps and a date with Karen Gillan.

*Starts frantically searching for Scottish ancestry*

[Big D]

We’ve got two teams. Get over yourself.

I think he is on to something. We need to develop a system where kids from the age of 5 (maybe 4) are transported to Scotland, from wherever their Scottish parents are living round the world, to some kind of boarding institution where they must stay until we can ascertain for sure if they want to play rugby or not.

Excellent idea. Traditionally all ‘European’ All Blacks are essentially Scots who know how to score tries, so we should open up some repatriation camps, and sprinkle in anyone else we like the look of with promise of possible caps and a date with Karen Gillan.

Scotland could have done with Scots born Finlay Christie about now.

[Tichtheid]

I think he is on to something. We need to develop a system where kids from the age of 5 (maybe 4) are transported to Scotland, from wherever their Scottish parents are living round the world, to some kind of boarding institution where they must stay until we can ascertain for sure if they want to play rugby or not.

Excellent idea. Traditionally all ‘European’ All Blacks are essentially Scots who know how to score tries, so we should open up some repatriation camps, and sprinkle in anyone else we like the look of with promise of possible caps and a date with Karen Gillan.

Scotland could have done with Scots born Finlay Christie about now.

Aye, he can repent that decision at leisure

[SaintK]

Youth development in Scotland is currently better than it's ever been in the professional era. The main issue is primarily the numbers, as rugby is a minority sport in a small country. The setup there has actually been producing more and better players in recent years. Ten of the starting 15 on Saturday and arguably all of the world class ones are homegrown.

That's interesting, who are they?
Think there is probably just about one in the England squad despite the size of the player pool

I'd guess Hogg and Finn.

Watson is an interesting one I suppose. Joined Edinburgh at 20, played 7s and u20s but it took us 4 years to knock the Leicester out of him and get him to an acceptable standard.

I don't think there are many "world class" players in the 6N at all. I reckon only Hogg would possibly make a "world training squad" from Scotland
Looking at the match squads for this weekend
Furlong from Ireland
Itoje from England
Rees-Zammit from Wales
Penaud and Woki from France (a fit Dupont would be a shoo-in)
No Italians
Reckon the majority would be from the SH still.

[JM2K6]

That's interesting, who are they?
Think there is probably just about one in the England squad despite the size of the player pool

I'd guess Hogg and Finn.

Watson is an interesting one I suppose. Joined Edinburgh at 20, played 7s and u20s but it took us 4 years to knock the Leicester out of him and get him to an acceptable standard.

I don't think there are many "world class" players in the 6N at all. I reckon only Hogg would possibly make a "world training squad" from Scotland
Looking at the match squads for this weekend
Furlong from Ireland
Itoje from England
Rees-Zammit from Wales
Penaud and Woki from France (a fit Dupont would be a shoo-in)
No Italians
Reckon the majority would be from the SH still.

Which is fun, as SA lost to England, NZ got gubbed by Ireland and France, and Australia were thrashed

[SaintK]

I'd guess Hogg and Finn.

Watson is an interesting one I suppose. Joined Edinburgh at 20, played 7s and u20s but it took us 4 years to knock the Leicester out of him and get him to an acceptable standard.

I don't think there are many "world class" players in the 6N at all. I reckon only Hogg would possibly make a "world training squad" from Scotland
Looking at the match squads for this weekend
Furlong from Ireland
Itoje from England
Rees-Zammit from Wales
Penaud and Woki from France (a fit Dupont would be a shoo-in)
No Italians
Reckon the majority would be from the SH still.

Which is fun, as SA lost to England, NZ got gubbed by Ireland and France, and Australia were thrashed

Doesn't neccessarily mean they don't have more "world class" players though.

[sockwithaticket]

That's interesting, who are they?
Think there is probably just about one in the England squad despite the size of the player pool

I'd guess Hogg and Finn.

Watson is an interesting one I suppose. Joined Edinburgh at 20, played 7s and u20s but it took us 4 years to knock the Leicester out of him and get him to an acceptable standard.

I don't think there are many "world class" players in the 6N at all. I reckon only Hogg would possibly make a "world training squad" from Scotland
Looking at the match squads for this weekend
Furlong from Ireland
Itoje from England
Rees-Zammit from Wales
Penaud and Woki from France (a fit Dupont would be a shoo-in)
No Italians
Reckon the majority would be from the SH still.

I'd be adding Fickou and Ford to the list for sure.

Not familiar enough with most of Ireland's players, but they've got a bunch of relatively inexperienced internationals now, some of whom could get there. Keenan's class.

[Margin__Walker]

Oh god. Not the definition of 'world class' debate.

The game can't come quick enough

[sefton]

Ford, does he he mean George?

Surely not

[weegie01]

What would Toga make of Olujare Ayoyemi Oguntibeju in the Scottish U20 squad?

Born in Nigeria, learned his rugby in South Africa, plays for Ealing Trailfinders. But qualifies for Scotland as he lived here aged 2 to 14, and apparently regards Edinburgh as his home town.

Edit.
And I see we have an English cap in the Women's squad under the new dispensation. But she was born in Scotland.

[Lobby]

What would Toga make of Olujare Ayoyemi Oguntibeju in the Scottish U20 squad?

Born in Nigeria, learned his rugby in South Africa, plays for Ealing Trailfinders. But qualifies for Scotland as he lived here aged 2 to 14, and apparently regards Edinburgh as his home town.

Edit.
And I see we have an English cap in the Women's squad under the new dispensation. But she was born in Scotland.

As Toga spent several years suggesting that Ayoola Erinle (also born in Nigeria) should have been England’s go to centre, I am sure he would applaud Scotland’s nurturing of young Oguntibeju.

[SaintK]

What would Toga make of Olujare Ayoyemi Oguntibeju in the Scottish U20 squad?

Born in Nigeria, learned his rugby in South Africa, plays for Ealing Trailfinders. But qualifies for Scotland as he lived here aged 2 to 14, and apparently regards Edinburgh as his home town.

Edit.
And I see we have an English cap in the Women's squad under the new dispensation. But she was born in Scotland.

If he hasn’t been selected for England then good luck to him

[Kawazaki]

Ewan Ashman (Canada) – Parent
WP Nel (South Africa) – Residency
Pierre Schoeman (South Africa) – Residency
Javan Sebastian (Wales) – Parent
Sam Skinner (England) – Parent
Josh Bayliss (England) – Grandparent
Andy Christie (England) – Grandparent
Nick Haining (Australia) – Grandparent
Hamish Watson (England) – Grandparent
Ali Price (England) – Parent
Ben Vellacott (England) – Parent
Ben White (England) - Grandparent
Chris Harris (England) – Grandparent
Rory Hutchinson (England) – Parent
Sam Johnson (Australia) – Residency
Cameron Redpath (France) – Parent
Sione Tuipulotu (Australia) – Grandparent
Rufus McLean (USA) – Parent
Kyle Rowe (England) – Parent
Kyle Steyn (South Africa) – Parent
Duhan van de Merwe (South Africa) – Residency

I take it from this that you think that when Cameron Redpath played for England under 20s in 2018 and 2019, and when he was selected for an England tour of South Africa, he was a poach from France?

It's a poach if the player learned all their rugby as a youth in another country. E.g Manu Tuilagi came to England aged 16 so I'd consider him as a poach but he'd never played any representative age-level rugby for Samoa. It's a poach+ if they learned all their rugby in another country and played for that country's junior representative teams. I get why Scottish fans are so touchy about this subject, they know the SRU are royally taking the piss and abusing the privilege but it becomes tribal and I can see it's important to push through that cognitive dissonance and lash out. I get it. It's not a great look that Scotland has so many poaches though.

[Slick]

Is anyone keeping a list of the rules?

[Biffer]

Is anyone keeping a list of the rules?

He doesn’t know what they are either.

[Kawazaki]

What would Toga make of Olujare Ayoyemi Oguntibeju in the Scottish U20 squad?

Born in Nigeria, learned his rugby in South Africa, plays for Ealing Trailfinders. But qualifies for Scotland as he lived here aged 2 to 14, and apparently regards Edinburgh as his home town.

Edit.
And I see we have an English cap in the Women's squad under the new dispensation. But she was born in Scotland.

As Toga spent several years suggesting that Ayoola Erinle (also born in Nigeria) should have been England’s go to centre, I am sure he would applaud Scotland’s nurturing of young Oguntibeju.

I spent about a month suggesting Erinle should replace Tindall when he was scoring tries for fun for Wasps and was easily the best 13 in the Premiership at that time. But call it years if it soothes you.

[Slick]

Ewan Ashman (Canada) – Parent
WP Nel (South Africa) – Residency
Pierre Schoeman (South Africa) – Residency
Javan Sebastian (Wales) – Parent
Sam Skinner (England) – Parent
Josh Bayliss (England) – Grandparent
Andy Christie (England) – Grandparent
Nick Haining (Australia) – Grandparent
Hamish Watson (England) – Grandparent
Ali Price (England) – Parent
Ben Vellacott (England) – Parent
Ben White (England) - Grandparent
Chris Harris (England) – Grandparent
Rory Hutchinson (England) – Parent
Sam Johnson (Australia) – Residency
Cameron Redpath (France) – Parent
Sione Tuipulotu (Australia) – Grandparent
Rufus McLean (USA) – Parent
Kyle Rowe (England) – Parent
Kyle Steyn (South Africa) – Parent
Duhan van de Merwe (South Africa) – Residency

I take it from this that you think that when Cameron Redpath played for England under 20s in 2018 and 2019, and when he was selected for an England tour of South Africa, he was a poach from France?

It's a poach if the player learned all their rugby as a youth in another country. E.g Manu Tuilagi came to England aged 16 so I'd consider him as a poach but he'd never played any representative age-level rugby for Samoa. It's a poach+ if they learned all their rugby in another country and played for that country's junior representative teams. I get why Scottish fans are so touchy about this subject, they know the SRU are royally taking the piss and abusing the privilege but it becomes tribal and I can see it's important to push through that cognitive dissonance and lash out. I get it. It's not a great look that Scotland has so many poaches though.

So if I, born in Scotland to Scottish parents but moved down to England as a 7 year old and played through the system there, wanted to play for the Scottish National side I’d be considered a poach?

[Punter15]

So anyway, that Eddie Jones eh?

[Kawazaki]

I take it from this that you think that when Cameron Redpath played for England under 20s in 2018 and 2019, and when he was selected for an England tour of South Africa, he was a poach from France?

It's a poach if the player learned all their rugby as a youth in another country. E.g Manu Tuilagi came to England aged 16 so I'd consider him as a poach but he'd never played any representative age-level rugby for Samoa. It's a poach+ if they learned all their rugby in another country and played for that country's junior representative teams. I get why Scottish fans are so touchy about this subject, they know the SRU are royally taking the piss and abusing the privilege but it becomes tribal and I can see it's important to push through that cognitive dissonance and lash out. I get it. It's not a great look that Scotland has so many poaches though.

So if I, born in Scotland to Scottish parents but moved down to England as a 7 year old and played through the system there, wanted to play for the Scottish National side I’d be considered a poach?

No, because you were born in Scotland.

[Slick]

It's a poach if the player learned all their rugby as a youth in another country. E.g Manu Tuilagi came to England aged 16 so I'd consider him as a poach but he'd never played any representative age-level rugby for Samoa. It's a poach+ if they learned all their rugby in another country and played for that country's junior representative teams. I get why Scottish fans are so touchy about this subject, they know the SRU are royally taking the piss and abusing the privilege but it becomes tribal and I can see it's important to push through that cognitive dissonance and lash out. I get it. It's not a great look that Scotland has so many poaches though.

So if I, born in Scotland to Scottish parents but moved down to England as a 7 year old and played through the system there, wanted to play for the Scottish National side I’d be considered a poach?

No, because you were born in Scotland.

Can you add that into the annex then?

[Kawazaki]

So if I, born in Scotland to Scottish parents but moved down to England as a 7 year old and played through the system there, wanted to play for the Scottish National side I’d be considered a poach?

No, because you were born in Scotland.

Can you add that into the annex then?

No need to. The giveaway is that all the examples of Scottish squad players I posted earlier were born outside Scotland.

[Ymx]

Do you have an English accent?

[Yr Alban]

I love the fact that when people who bang on about this are challenged, the qualification suddenly changes from where you were born to ‘where you learned your rugby’. Handing a neat advantage to places where people tend to migrate for economic or work reasons. Loads of people emigrate to NZ from the South Sea islands, but if they play for NZ, that’s fine because that’s ‘where they learned their rugby’. Rugby is a minority sport in Scotland with a predominantly middle-class following. Middle class families are more likely to move around for work, and in Scottish terms are a lot more likely to move to England. It’s estimated there are as many Scots outside Scotland than in it.

I’d venture to say that nobody gets to choose where they were born, and very few get any say in where they grow up. Both of these may well influence your identity growing up, but they don’t define it. I was born in England and lived there until age 13, I’d have needed a parental qualification, but I’ve identified as Scottish my entire life. My sons were born in England and are growing up in Wales - both identity as Scottish too. At least their mum is Glasgow born so they wouldn’t need to go to a grandparent.

What’s particularly ridiculous is that it is Hamish Watson who came under fire here. Watson’s folks took him to Murrayfield as a child. He’s been supporting Scotland his whole life. If you want to call him English, I wouldn’t do it where he can hear you.

[Slick]

Do you have an English accent?

Me? Yes, mainly

[Ymx]

Do you have an English accent?

Me? Yes, mainly

Poach !!

[Slick]

No, because you were born in Scotland.

Can you add that into the annex then?

No need to. The giveaway is that all the examples of Scottish squad players I posted earlier were born outside Scotland.

Yes, but that was when you were in the middle of changing your own rules the first time, so just trying to tighten it up for you

[Slick]

Do you have an English accent?

Me? Yes, mainly

Poach !!

Ironically, that’s one of the words that does come out with a Scottish accent

[Kawazaki]

I love the fact that when people who bang on about this are challenged, the qualification suddenly changes from where you were born to ‘where you learned your rugby’. Handing a neat advantage to places where people tend to migrate for economic or work reasons. Loads of people emigrate to NZ from the South Sea islands, but if they play for NZ, that’s fine because that’s ‘where they learned their rugby’. Rugby is a minority sport in Scotland with a predominantly middle-class following. Middle class families are more likely to move around for work, and in Scottish terms are a lot more likely to move to England. It’s estimated there are as many Scots outside Scotland than in it.

I’d venture to say that nobody gets to choose where they were born, and very few get any say in where they grow up. Both of these may well influence your identity growing up, but they don’t define it. I was born in England and lived there until age 13, I’d have needed a parental qualification, but I’ve identified as Scottish my entire life. My sons were born in England and are growing up in Wales - both identity as Scottish too. At least their mum is Glasgow born so they wouldn’t need to go to a grandparent.

What’s particularly ridiculous is that it is Hamish Watson who came under fire here. Watson’s folks took him to Murrayfield as a child. He’s been supporting Scotland his whole life. If you want to call him English, I wouldn’t do it where he can hear you.

Hamish Watson is a fine player and I've no doubt he's as proud as anyone to wear the Scottish shirt. He's not really an example of poaching and I have no problem with him or those like him playing for Scotland. However, you don't have to look very hard to find egregious examples of poaching in the Scotland squad.

[Slick]

Tantrum is easing off

[Kawazaki]

Can you add that into the annex then?

No need to. The giveaway is that all the examples of Scottish squad players I posted earlier were born outside Scotland.

Yes, but that was when you were in the middle of changing your own rules the first time, so just trying to tighten it up for you

I haven't changed any rules. I don't even get to make them.

As I said, I get why you're lashing out, nobody likes to be accused of poachng and it gets tribal.

[robmatic]

What’s particularly ridiculous is that it is Hamish Watson who came under fire here. Watson’s folks took him to Murrayfield as a child. He’s been supporting Scotland his whole life. If you want to call him English, I wouldn’t do it where he can hear you.

To be fair, he does sound quite English, but judging from the fact that he's called Hamish, his parents must be 220% Scottish.

[robmatic]

Identity is a funny thing, it's obviously not about where you are born or even necessarily where you are brought up. My little boy was born in Turkey, is a Turkish citizen and only speaks Turkish so far (he's only a toddler), but I expect him to feel an affinity for the UK as well that he will get from me.

[Punter15]

No need to. The giveaway is that all the examples of Scottish squad players I posted earlier were born outside Scotland.

Yes, but that was when you were in the middle of changing your own rules the first time, so just trying to tighten it up for you

I haven't changed any rules. I don't even get to make them.

As I said, I get why you're lashing out, nobody likes to be accused of poachng and it gets tribal.

No he’s not, you just won’t let up about it because for once your team doesn’t have Islanders and Kiwi rejects swearing allegiance to the rose. Bottom line, it’s every coach’s job to pick the best possible team available. That’s all there is to it.

Can we move on?

[Kawazaki]

Identity is a funny thing, it's obviously not about where you are born or even necessarily where you are brought up...

...it's getting a call out of the blue from the SRU.