The Official English Rugby Thread
Owen Farrell plays much better for his club side than he does for England (much like every other player who represents England under Jones). Farrell probably would have improved England had he started at 12 instead of Slade yesterday. He's not the answer to the England 12 problem but hopefully some of the naysayers can see that in the Eddie Jones vision, it's not an easy place to slot into.
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Paddington Bear
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No doubt controversial but can’t help but feel Faz’s boot may have closed out the game at the end yesterday.Kawazaki wrote: ↑Sun Feb 06, 2022 6:54 pm Owen Farrell plays much better for his club side than he does for England (much like every other player who represents England under Jones). Farrell probably would have improved England had he started at 12 instead of Slade yesterday. He's not the answer to the England 12 problem but hopefully some of the naysayers can see that in the Eddie Jones vision, it's not an easy place to slot into.
Tend to agree that even when England’s gameplan is to kick you can’t take away the responsibility of the players for doing so 1) in great attacking positions and 2) kicking so poorly
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
Felt like our backs and forwards were disconnected. Very little support in a lot of the breakdowns, and against Scotland that's a recipe for disaster.
It's one of my main fears of having league coaches, coaching the attack.
It's one of my main fears of having league coaches, coaching the attack.
Give a man a fire and he'll be warm for a day. Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
https://www.msn.com/en-gb/sport/rugbyle ... d=msedgntpEddie Jones admits the role his mismanagement of replacing Luke Cowan-Dickie played in England’s dramatic 20-17 defeat by Scotland.
Cowan-Dickie was sent to the sin-bin for a deliberate knock-on that prevented Darcy Graham from scoring a probable try in a tense final quarter of the Six Nations opener at Murrayfield.
Instead of bringing on Jamie George as specialist hooker cover, Jones kept his back row intact only for the decision to backfire when it meant prop Joe Marler had to throw in at the line-out.
Marler’s throw failed to travel five metres and from the resulting scrum England conceded a penalty which Finn Russell used to land the match-winning kick.
“We thought we could wait for a scrum because we wanted to keep the back rowers on at that stage,” Jones said.
“Scotland were moving the ball around well. We thought we needed that third back rower on. Certainly I take the blame for that.”
Chris Jack, 67 test All Black - "I was voted most useless and laziest cunt in the English Premiership two years on the trot"
Inspired by some chat in the Scottish rugby thread and the earlier discussion in here about England's kicking, I thought I'd take a look at the stats. The official 6N stats include metres kicked and "ball played by hand %" - i.e. not kicked - but not "number of times kicked" which is annoying. Anyway, here they are:
What does this show us? Well, straight off:
France - everyone is comfortable kicking as an option, but the centres and wings kick around 10% of the time. Dupont kicks very little for a 9. France had a fuck-ton of ball and kicked it a lot but it was in proportion to the amount of possession they had.
Italy - Lots of players who do not kick. Garbisi was leathering the hell out of it. Italy were under the cosh, so...
Ireland - very low kick percentage from the halfbacks and fullback. Conway kicked more than anyone. Clear plan to keep ball in hand.
Wales - Bizarrely, no outside back except LRZ kicked the ball. They kept the ball in hand almost the entire game. Tomos Williams kicked 4% of the time. Very strange.
Scotland - Hogg and Russell kicked loads. Everyone else kept ball in hand. Price only kicked 14% of ball. Neither Scottish centre kicked it.
And as for England - every single player in the backline bar Marchant kicked the ball a lot. Only one centre (Brex, Italy) liked kicking more often than the England centres. Youngs kicked more distance than any other player this weekend (most of them being too long). England had the highest average kick-to-pass-or-run ratio from the starting teams (only just, mind). Smith was not kicking for distance - only Sexton made fewer metres with kicks out of hand.
It was a clear tactic to have England's outside backs kick the ball at every opportunity. According to this article: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... es-1446323 England kicked the ball away at least five times inside Scotland's 22. Youngs' kicking was diabolical, and he inflicted more of it on us than any other scrum half attempted in round 1. Even a shithouse Italy side under the cosh against the French, playing in dreadful conditions, kept the ball in hand more than we did.
Everyone else has the balls to actually run it, and to kick in attack when the individuals think it's on, not because it's the primary tactic.
Code: Select all
France:
| # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15 | Jaminet | 326 | 66% | 34% |
| 14 | Penaud | 78 | 88% | 12% |
| 13 | Fickou | 11 | 91% | 9% |
| 12 | Danty | 22 | 90% | 10% |
| 11 | Villiere | 46 | 93% | 7% |
| 10 | Ntamack | 296 | 73% | 27% |
| 9 | Dupont | 329 | 87% | 13% |
| sub | Lucu | 23 | 90% | 10% |
| sub | Moefana | 6 | 85% | 15% |
| sub | Ramos | 61 | 75% | 25% |
| START | TOTAL | 1108 | AVERAGE: 84% | 16% |
| SUB | TOTAL | 90 | AVERAGE: 83% | 17% |
Italy:
| # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15 | Padovani | 85 | 76% | 24% |
| 14 | Menoncello | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 13 | Brex | 40 | 66% | 33% |
| 12 | Zanon | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 11 | Ioane | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 10 | Garbisi | 438 | 58% | 42% |
| 9 | Varney | 231 | 81% | 19% |
| sub | Braley | 32 | 91% | 9% |
| sub | Marin | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| START | TOTAL | 794 | AVERAGE: 83% | 17% |
| SUB | TOTAL | 32 | AVERAGE: 95% | 5% |
Ireland:
| # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|-------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15 | Keenan | 88 | 81% | 19% |
| 14 | Conway | 49 | 77% | 23% |
| 13 | Ringrose | 22 | 95% | 5% |
| 12 | Aki | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 11 | Hansen | 23 | 93% | 7% |
| 10 | Sexton | 70 | 90% | 10% |
| 9 | Gibson-Park | 200 | 90% | 10% |
| sub | Murray | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| sub | Carbery | 32 | 91% | 9% |
| sub | Hume | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| START | TOTAL | 452 | AVERAGE: 89% | 11% |
| SUB | TOTAL | 32 | AVERAGE: 97% | 3% |
Wales:
| # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|-------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15 | Williams | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 14 | McNicholl | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 13 | Adams | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 12 | Tompkins | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 11 | Rees-Zammit | 176 | 72% | 28% |
| 10 | Biggar | 182 | 84% | 16% |
| 9 | Williams | 36 | 96% | 4% |
| sub | Davies | 58 | 90% | 10% |
| sub | Sheedy | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| sub | Watkin | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| START | TOTAL | 394 | AVERAGE: 93% | 7% |
| SUB | TOTAL | 58 | AVERAGE: 97% | 3% |
Scotland:
| # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|-----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15 | Hogg | 275 | 65% | 35% |
| 14 | Graham | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 13 | Harris | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 12 | Johnson | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 11 | vd Merwe | 45 | 87% | 13% |
| 10 | Russell | 357 | 61% | 39% |
| 9 | Price | 148 | 86% | 14% |
| sub | White | 1 | 95% | 5% |
| sub | Tuipulotu | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| START | TOTAL | 825 | AVERAGE: 86% | 14% |
| SUB | TOTAL | 1 | AVERAGE: 98% | 2% |
and finally, England:
| # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc |
|-------|----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------|
| 15 | Steward | 39 | 72% | 28% |
| 14 | Malins | 35 | 81% | 19% |
| 13 | Daly | 50 | 80% | 20% |
| 12 | Slade | 123 | 85% | 15% |
| 11 | Marchant | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| 10 | Smith | 133 | 78% | 22% |
| 9 | Youngs | 456 | 78% | 22% |
| sub | Ford | 0 | 100% | 0% |
| START | TOTAL | 836 | AVERAGE: 82% | 18% |
| SUB | TOTAL | 0 | AVERAGE: 100% | 0% |France - everyone is comfortable kicking as an option, but the centres and wings kick around 10% of the time. Dupont kicks very little for a 9. France had a fuck-ton of ball and kicked it a lot but it was in proportion to the amount of possession they had.
Italy - Lots of players who do not kick. Garbisi was leathering the hell out of it. Italy were under the cosh, so...
Ireland - very low kick percentage from the halfbacks and fullback. Conway kicked more than anyone. Clear plan to keep ball in hand.
Wales - Bizarrely, no outside back except LRZ kicked the ball. They kept the ball in hand almost the entire game. Tomos Williams kicked 4% of the time. Very strange.
Scotland - Hogg and Russell kicked loads. Everyone else kept ball in hand. Price only kicked 14% of ball. Neither Scottish centre kicked it.
And as for England - every single player in the backline bar Marchant kicked the ball a lot. Only one centre (Brex, Italy) liked kicking more often than the England centres. Youngs kicked more distance than any other player this weekend (most of them being too long). England had the highest average kick-to-pass-or-run ratio from the starting teams (only just, mind). Smith was not kicking for distance - only Sexton made fewer metres with kicks out of hand.
It was a clear tactic to have England's outside backs kick the ball at every opportunity. According to this article: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... es-1446323 England kicked the ball away at least five times inside Scotland's 22. Youngs' kicking was diabolical, and he inflicted more of it on us than any other scrum half attempted in round 1. Even a shithouse Italy side under the cosh against the French, playing in dreadful conditions, kept the ball in hand more than we did.
Everyone else has the balls to actually run it, and to kick in attack when the individuals think it's on, not because it's the primary tactic.
Yep - Eddie likes his kicking game - but none of it suggests that the backs are told to completely ignore overlaps and always kick those balls away. They just make poor choices.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 2:32 pm Inspired by some chat in the Scottish rugby thread and the earlier discussion in here about England's kicking, I thought I'd take a look at the stats. The official 6N stats include metres kicked and "ball played by hand %" - i.e. not kicked - but not "number of times kicked" which is annoying. Anyway, here they are:
What does this show us? Well, straight off:Code: Select all
France: | # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc | |-------|----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------| | 15 | Jaminet | 326 | 66% | 34% | | 14 | Penaud | 78 | 88% | 12% | | 13 | Fickou | 11 | 91% | 9% | | 12 | Danty | 22 | 90% | 10% | | 11 | Villiere | 46 | 93% | 7% | | 10 | Ntamack | 296 | 73% | 27% | | 9 | Dupont | 329 | 87% | 13% | | sub | Lucu | 23 | 90% | 10% | | sub | Moefana | 6 | 85% | 15% | | sub | Ramos | 61 | 75% | 25% | | START | TOTAL | 1108 | AVERAGE: 84% | 16% | | SUB | TOTAL | 90 | AVERAGE: 83% | 17% | Italy: | # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc | |-------|------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------| | 15 | Padovani | 85 | 76% | 24% | | 14 | Menoncello | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 13 | Brex | 40 | 66% | 33% | | 12 | Zanon | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 11 | Ioane | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 10 | Garbisi | 438 | 58% | 42% | | 9 | Varney | 231 | 81% | 19% | | sub | Braley | 32 | 91% | 9% | | sub | Marin | 0 | 100% | 0% | | START | TOTAL | 794 | AVERAGE: 83% | 17% | | SUB | TOTAL | 32 | AVERAGE: 95% | 5% | Ireland: | # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc | |-------|-------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------| | 15 | Keenan | 88 | 81% | 19% | | 14 | Conway | 49 | 77% | 23% | | 13 | Ringrose | 22 | 95% | 5% | | 12 | Aki | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 11 | Hansen | 23 | 93% | 7% | | 10 | Sexton | 70 | 90% | 10% | | 9 | Gibson-Park | 200 | 90% | 10% | | sub | Murray | 0 | 100% | 0% | | sub | Carbery | 32 | 91% | 9% | | sub | Hume | 0 | 100% | 0% | | START | TOTAL | 452 | AVERAGE: 89% | 11% | | SUB | TOTAL | 32 | AVERAGE: 97% | 3% | Wales: | # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc | |-------|-------------|---------------|---------------------|-----------| | 15 | Williams | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 14 | McNicholl | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 13 | Adams | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 12 | Tompkins | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 11 | Rees-Zammit | 176 | 72% | 28% | | 10 | Biggar | 182 | 84% | 16% | | 9 | Williams | 36 | 96% | 4% | | sub | Davies | 58 | 90% | 10% | | sub | Sheedy | 0 | 100% | 0% | | sub | Watkin | 0 | 100% | 0% | | START | TOTAL | 394 | AVERAGE: 93% | 7% | | SUB | TOTAL | 58 | AVERAGE: 97% | 3% | Scotland: | # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc | |-------|-----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------| | 15 | Hogg | 275 | 65% | 35% | | 14 | Graham | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 13 | Harris | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 12 | Johnson | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 11 | vd Merwe | 45 | 87% | 13% | | 10 | Russell | 357 | 61% | 39% | | 9 | Price | 148 | 86% | 14% | | sub | White | 1 | 95% | 5% | | sub | Tuipulotu | 0 | 100% | 0% | | START | TOTAL | 825 | AVERAGE: 86% | 14% | | SUB | TOTAL | 1 | AVERAGE: 98% | 2% | and finally, England: | # | Player | Metres Kicked | Ball Played by Hand | Kick Perc | |-------|----------|---------------|---------------------|-----------| | 15 | Steward | 39 | 72% | 28% | | 14 | Malins | 35 | 81% | 19% | | 13 | Daly | 50 | 80% | 20% | | 12 | Slade | 123 | 85% | 15% | | 11 | Marchant | 0 | 100% | 0% | | 10 | Smith | 133 | 78% | 22% | | 9 | Youngs | 456 | 78% | 22% | | sub | Ford | 0 | 100% | 0% | | START | TOTAL | 836 | AVERAGE: 82% | 18% | | SUB | TOTAL | 0 | AVERAGE: 100% | 0% |
France - everyone is comfortable kicking as an option, but the centres and wings kick around 10% of the time. Dupont kicks very little for a 9. France had a fuck-ton of ball and kicked it a lot but it was in proportion to the amount of possession they had.
Italy - Lots of players who do not kick. Garbisi was leathering the hell out of it. Italy were under the cosh, so...
Ireland - very low kick percentage from the halfbacks and fullback. Conway kicked more than anyone. Clear plan to keep ball in hand.
Wales - Bizarrely, no outside back except LRZ kicked the ball. They kept the ball in hand almost the entire game. Tomos Williams kicked 4% of the time. Very strange.
Scotland - Hogg and Russell kicked loads. Everyone else kept ball in hand. Price only kicked 14% of ball. Neither Scottish centre kicked it.
And as for England - every single player in the backline bar Marchant kicked the ball a lot. Only one centre (Brex, Italy) liked kicking more often than the England centres. Youngs kicked more distance than any other player this weekend (most of them being too long). England had the highest average kick-to-pass-or-run ratio from the starting teams (only just, mind). Smith was not kicking for distance - only Sexton made fewer metres with kicks out of hand.
It was a clear tactic to have England's outside backs kick the ball at every opportunity. According to this article: https://inews.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/s ... es-1446323 England kicked the ball away at least five times inside Scotland's 22. Youngs' kicking was diabolical, and he inflicted more of it on us than any other scrum half attempted in round 1. Even a shithouse Italy side under the cosh against the French, playing in dreadful conditions, kept the ball in hand more than we did.
Everyone else has the balls to actually run it, and to kick in attack when the individuals think it's on, not because it's the primary tactic.
Obviously I can't prove that, Ovals. But it does seem to be stretching the bounds of credulity to believe it was all just a coincidence that every outside back bar Marchant (who was usually the guy chasing the kick) chose to kick in those moments. They played like it had been drummed into them. Hence me suspecting it had been.
Kicking good turnover ball away was a feature for England under Eddie previously. I don't really see how this is much different.
Kicking good turnover ball away was a feature for England under Eddie previously. I don't really see how this is much different.
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sockwithaticket
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- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:48 am
Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.
Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.
Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.
Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.
Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.
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inactionman
- Posts: 3065
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 7:37 am
To be fair, some of the kicks looked a bit like the player in question running out of space and not wanting to be isolated. Even so, it happened far, far too much (eta: and too frequently when in good, threatening positions) to feel it was anything other than preordained. It also never really threatened to be successful.
In other 'rugby things that could be predicted', Bath got drummed 40-3 by Sarries. Our two-match winning run** has been broken.
** if we ignore a respectable European loss to La Rochelle and a shellacking by Leinster, of course. And I am ignoring them.
In other 'rugby things that could be predicted', Bath got drummed 40-3 by Sarries. Our two-match winning run** has been broken.
** if we ignore a respectable European loss to La Rochelle and a shellacking by Leinster, of course. And I am ignoring them.
inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 4:19 pm In other 'rugby things that could be predicted', Bath got drummed 40-3 by Sarries. Our two-match winning run** has been broken.
I watched some of that game. Ben Spencer looked very good again despite the dross around him. He was certainly playing better than the Saracens 9.
I'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.
Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.
Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.
Smith’s scoring the try and ignoring Eddie’s instructions to kick is probably why he was subbed.Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pmI'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.
Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.
Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.
It is a bit worrying that we lost to Scotland who really didn't look very good - aside from defending very well. But I think we'll win a couple of games. We often play better when we have less possession.
Oh come on - the fact that England didn't kick the ball when 5m from the line isn't proof of anything.Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pmI'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.
Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.
Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.
5m !! maybe you should stick to imperial units if you think that was 5m - but you simply cannot deny that we do score tries without kicking the ball away in and around the 22.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:32 pmOh come on - the fact that England didn't kick the ball when 5m from the line isn't proof of anything.Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pmI'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 3:54 pm Good work JMK, even if depressing to read.
Ovals, you're being charitable to Eddie there. This isn't the first time England have kicked away attacking ball in good positions under him and in the past it's often been repeated in the next game with no personnel being dropped, which rather suggests either they were following instructions or he was ok with their interpretation of what he wanted from them.
Even in this game, if he didn't like what was happening Smith and another back could've been subbed far earlier than they were.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1pt5Dw4eKU
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Rhubarb & Custard
- Posts: 2097
- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 4:04 pm
That and the drop outs. Still, he didn't tell them to kick badly
Jesus, Ovals. I'm saying the kicking it in the wider channels and trying to put pressure on rather than keeping ball in hand was Eddie's tactic for this match. Not that it's Eddie's tactic in every match. Showing me Marcus Smith playing like Marcus Smith in different match doesn't change that.Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:36 pm5m !! maybe you should stick to imperial units if you think that was 5m - but you simply cannot deny that we do score tries without kicking the ball away in and around the 22.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:32 pmOh come on - the fact that England didn't kick the ball when 5m from the line isn't proof of anything.Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:17 pm
I'm not being charitable, Im being logical - It is clear that they don't always kick the ball in promising attacks in and around the 22 - we saw that when Smith scored and on loads of previous occassions when we've passed the ball along to the try scorer. Yes, Eddie is a numpty who does encourage too much kicking - but it's down to the players to make the choice in those positions - they don't always choose to kick but when they do it is often the wrong choice. I suspect Eddie could change that, if he said only kick in the final third as a last option - but the players are the ones making the decisions and they just aren't getting it right.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1pt5Dw4eKU
My apologies about the 5m comment. Here's when Marcus gets the ball:
No-one in their right minds would suggest that him not kicking it there is any kind of evidence contrary to the suggestion that we deliberately kicked away good attacking ball as part of a plan.
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Iain(bobbity)
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This invites the "arrogance" tag but for me the frustrating aspect of England is the feeling they could be significantly better than they are. Applying the "normal" league point rules (so no GS extras) over Jones's tenure we're actually performing slightly better than, and at very similar levels to, the rest of the old 5N. Ireland never hit our lows, but we have more regular highs; Wales & France are actually more inconsistent than us.
So in many ways perhaps we should be accepting that this is what normal looks like when the 6N is widely competitive, as it has been the last decade.
Yet it feels tremendously frustrating watching them because it feels like they should be capable of more.
Code: Select all
| | 2016 | 2017 | 2018 | 2019 | 2020 | 2021 | Sum | Mean | Median | Min | Max |
|----------|-----:|-----:|-----:|-----:|-----:|-----:|----:|-----:|-------:|----:|----:|
| England | 21 | 19 | 10 | 18 | 18 | 10 | 96 | 16.0 | 18.0 | 10 | 21 |
| Ireland | 13 | 14 | 23 | 14 | 14 | 15 | 93 | 15.5 | 14.0 | 13 | 23 |
| Wales | 16 | 10 | 15 | 20 | 8 | 20 | 89 | 14.8 | 15.5 | 8 | 20 |
| France | 8 | 14 | 11 | 10 | 18 | 16 | 77 | 12.8 | 12.5 | 8 | 18 |
| Scotland | 10 | 14 | 13 | 9 | 14 | 15 | 75 | 12.5 | 13.5 | 9 | 15 |
| Italy | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 1 | 0.2 | 0.0 | 0 | 1 |
Yet it feels tremendously frustrating watching them because it feels like they should be capable of more.
Wha daur meddle wi' me?
to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team
the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing
the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing
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inactionman
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I'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team
the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing
Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.
eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.
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sockwithaticket
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He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.
My interpretation is that it was because somebody recently quote tweeted something from him from early pandemic along the lines of "get behind the government in doing their best with this" which was pretty innocuous at the time but earned him a pile-on in the context of the last couple of months.
Wha daur meddle wi' me?
Remember Bomber?inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pmI'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team
the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing
Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.
eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.
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sockwithaticket
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- Joined: Tue Jun 30, 2020 11:48 am
Fondlyshaggy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pmRemember Bomber?inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pmI'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team
the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing
Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.
eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.
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inactionman
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I remember him getting stuck between a rock and hard place with Sam Burgess.shaggy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pmRemember Bomber?inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pmI'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team
the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing
Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.
eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.
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Paddington Bear
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- Location: Hertfordshire
The new coach is always a direct opposite of the last.shaggy wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 3:14 pmRemember Bomber?inactionman wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:35 pmI'd tend to agree. Who would enjoy being beasted and belittled on what appears an hourly basis.Monk wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 10:33 am to my mind Eddie Jones simply is unable to properly guage a player's worth - that is both his inherent rugby qualities and what he would bring to a team
the bottom line is that the England side is not a happy one - there is no sign of them enjoying the game they are playing
Interesting to note that the England football team suffered this - it's mainly why Scholes and Carrick, amongst others, retired as it was so unpleasant going on international duty - and it's only after Southgate has encouraged a pleasant working environment that the results have improved.
eta: Southgate also seems to have a feel for character and personality, as noted in other threads he disposed of Mason Greenwood but retained Phil Foden for the same transgression.
Old men forget: yet all shall be forgot, But he'll remember with advantages, What feats he did that day
I find it hard to work out just what you think Eddie is instructing them to do and when to do it. We, quite obviously, don't always kick good attacking ball away - so the players must be making some judgement about when to do it. They still have the choice and can choose to kick, or not to kick - and they often exercise either option. Hence, you have to conclude that they, too often, make the wrong choice - regardless Eddie's penchant for kicking.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 6:47 pmJesus, Ovals. I'm saying the kicking it in the wider channels and trying to put pressure on rather than keeping ball in hand was Eddie's tactic for this match. Not that it's Eddie's tactic in every match. Showing me Marcus Smith playing like Marcus Smith in different match doesn't change that.Ovals wrote: ↑Mon Feb 07, 2022 5:36 pm5m !! maybe you should stick to imperial units if you think that was 5m - but you simply cannot deny that we do score tries without kicking the ball away in and around the 22.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1pt5Dw4eKU
My apologies about the 5m comment. Here's when Marcus gets the ball:
No-one in their right minds would suggest that him not kicking it there is any kind of evidence contrary to the suggestion that we deliberately kicked away good attacking ball as part of a plan.
Agreed - England don't really need him for Italy - I assume Lawes will be back so he could have stuck with Isiekwe and Itoge - he's also got plenty of other backrow options with Dombrandt and Barbeary (the latter has played 6 for Wasps at times recently).sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm
He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.
Nonetheless, having Launchbury back, in the matchday squad, certainly strengthens it - as would bringing in Tuilagi, even if nether of them have played much since returning from injury.
Last edited by Ovals on Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Tuilagi's ability to get over the game line regardless of the quality of the ball you shovel out to him is priceless to England. If only he wasn't injured so often.Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:30 pmAgreed - England don't really need him for Italy - I assume Lawes will be back so he could have stick with Isiekwe and Itoge - he's also got plenty of other backrow options with Dombrandt and Barbeary (the latter has played 6 for Wasps at times recently).sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm
He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.
Nonetheless, having Launchbury back, in the matchday squad, certainly strenthens it - as would bringing in Tuilagi, even if nether of them have played much since returning from injury.
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sockwithaticket
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Exclusively when Tom Willis starts. The two of them in tandem is bloody dangerous.Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:30 pmAgreed - England don't really need him for Italy - I assume Lawes will be back so he could have stuck with Isiekwe and Itoge - he's also got plenty of other backrow options with Dombrandt and Barbeary (the latter has played 6 for Wasps at times recently).sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm
He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.
Nonetheless, having Launchbury back, in the matchday squad, certainly strengthens it - as would bringing in Tuilagi, even if nether of them have played much since returning from injury.
I'm more worried about Launch in training than in a match situation. If we could keep him with Wasps during the week and just drop him off on game day that'd be best.
Paolo Odogwu at 13 or Dan Kelly at 12. Probably not going to happen this side of the world cup, but it would put a big runner in the midfield.petej wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:43 pmTuilagi's ability to get over the game line regardless of the quality of the ball you shovel out to him is priceless to England. If only he wasn't injured so often.Ovals wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 4:30 pmAgreed - England don't really need him for Italy - I assume Lawes will be back so he could have stick with Isiekwe and Itoge - he's also got plenty of other backrow options with Dombrandt and Barbeary (the latter has played 6 for Wasps at times recently).sockwithaticket wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 12:43 pm
He's only played 90 minutes since his 9 month lay off, even allowing for some selfish desire that Wasps get to keep hold of him, I'm not sure Eddie's England training is what he needs right now.
Nonetheless, having Launchbury back, in the matchday squad, certainly strenthens it - as would bringing in Tuilagi, even if nether of them have played much since returning from injury.
Hassell-Collins on one of the wings to balance out lither runners in Malins and Steward wouldn't be a bad idea either.