Thanks all the same; but we'll pass on having another 500,000 SF drones being added to our electorate; & fucking up our Parliament; until we de-program the ones we already have.
Or "I pulled it out of my jacksie"Hal Jordan wrote: ↑Wed Feb 02, 2022 10:23 pm "Taken legal advice"
trans. I have spoken to a retired barrister down the golf club who practised in a different area, but he seems to remember something about it from his days as a pupil.
Not with Pretty Vacants new legislation there won't be !
It wouldn’t be very disobedient if it was allowed, tbffishfoodie wrote: ↑Tue Feb 08, 2022 8:38 pmNot with Pretty Vacants new legislation there won't be !
You get one opportunity to slam your door, really, really hard; when their candidates show up; & that's your lot !
... maybe don't feed the dog for a week beforehand too ?
https://www.derryjournal.com/news/natio ... st-3559456Colum Eastwood says he would be 'looking at British Government treatment' if he was a unionist
Colum Eastwood has said he would be 'looking closely at how the British Government treats him' if he was a unionist while blaming the DUP for the Protocol due to its support for a hard-Brexit.
Mr. Eastwood was speaking during the passage of the Northern Ireland (Ministers, Elections and Petitions of Concern) Bill at Westminster on Monday night.
"I hear a lot in this House about the precious Union and how this is all about the Union. Where is the Prime Minister or even his Secretary of State for Northern Ireland when a key part of that supposedly precious Union, the Executive of the devolved Administration of Northern Ireland, has collapsed?
"Nowhere to be seen is the Prime Minister of this precious United Kingdom. If I was a Unionist in Northern Ireland today—I can assure the House I am not—I would be looking very closely at how this Government treat them.
"To be honest, I find it quite shocking we are in this position today. One of the things that has led us to this position is that the Prime Minister, the former Brexit Secretary and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland have been promising to trigger article 16 for months.
"Of course, the protocol was part of the withdrawal agreement that this Prime Minister negotiated, signed and told everybody was fantastic. But what is worse about all this is that the DUP actually believed him. I have a four-year-old who would not have believed him.
"It is astonishing that, after all of this, the DUP, which championed Brexit—it’s all one United Kingdom referendum, we all have to leave together, we were told—[Interruption.] Then there was an opportunity—[Interruption.]
"Members really want to listen, Mr Deputy Speaker. Then there was an opportunity to stop a border in the Irish sea by voting for the whole of the United Kingdom to stay in the customs union and single market.
"The DUP rejected it. [Interruption.] I hear, 'That wasn’t Brexit.' Well, maybe it is about time that the DUP chose between the purest version of Brexit and the Union they profess to love. Now we have a protocol that had to be put in place because the DUP and others forced the hand of a previous Prime Minister into ensuring there would be a border in the Irish sea."
Mr. Eastwood claimed none of this was a surprise.
"Many of us, people of a nationalist persuasion and people of no persuasion at all, were shouting it loudly on TV and on the radio to tell them: this is what is going to happen if you don’t do something sensible about Brexit. We also have an opportunity. Let us get rid of most of the checks. Let us do it tomorrow. Let us have an Sanitary and Phytosanitary agreement with the European Union. The DUP reject that as well. How did they think this was going to end?
"Now we have the DUP, who for months have held a gun to their own head, telling the British Government and the European Union, 'If you don’t get me what I want, I’ll shoot.' And now they have shot and what have they got?
"This will never precipitate the result they want because it is impossible to do what the DUP wants. That is the reality. This is not about the protocol; this is about an election that will come in the next few months."
Mr. Eastwood claimed the decision to collapse the Executive was about 'shoring up the Unionist support.'
"That is what every election in Northern Ireland is about. Let’s get the people worried! Let’s get them scared! Who is going to be First Minister? Who is going to be Deputy First Minister? The Union is at risk!
"Why not actually work to make the institutions work and persuade the people out there who are interested in this big constitutional debate that they actually should vote for the Union at some point? But everything that the DUP does makes my job easier and easier.
"I do not have to do anything to persuade people to vote for constitutional change. I just have to let the DUP speak, because everything it has done over the past five or six years has led to more support for the Union," he said.
During the same debate the DUP leader Jeffrey Donaldson quoted the late John Hume in arguing against the Protocol.
"I am a Unionist. I believe passionately in Northern Ireland’s place within the United Kingdom. At the heart of the Belfast agreement is the principle of consensus. The former leader of the Social Democratic and Labour party, John Hume, told us time after time that the way forward in Northern Ireland was not the politics of one side being in charge of the other and of majority rule; it was about consensus.
"On a matter as fundamental as Northern Ireland’s relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom and the harm that the protocol is doing to that relationship, there is not a consensus in Northern Ireland. There is not a single Unionist party and not a single Unionist elected representative who supports the protocol," said the Lagan Valley MP.
Mr. Donaldson said he remembered the former Foyle MP Mark Durkan speaking of the need "'to remove some of the ugly scaffolding' of the Good Friday Agreement".
The DUP leader said: "The sooner we get on with some of that, the better, but that does not involve negating the need for dual consent in Northern Ireland. That consent is not forthcoming from the people I represent.
"There is this idea that the protocol can be proceeded with by ignoring the wishes of Unionists and just telling us, 'Get on with it—you can rage against it,' but that is not what the agreement says. It says that the Government will bring forward 'measures to protect and strengthen the UK internal market' and Northern Ireland’s place within it.
"Yet since the agreement two years ago and since the Command Paper more than six months ago, the Government have done nothing to protect Northern Ireland’s place in the internal market.
"They have not honoured their commitment in the agreement, which is the basis on which my party re-entered the power-sharing institutions in Northern Ireland. How long are we expected to be in the position of my Ministers having to implement measures that, day after day, are harming Northern Ireland’s relationship with the rest of the United Kingdom and our economy?"
Honestly I think there are very many in Government for whom an act of UDI by NI would solve an awful lot of problems. It's mostly the likes of Farage, ironically, who are strongly pro-Union over here.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:25 am Sorry, it's a bit long, but Colum Eastwood made a brilliant statement in the House, & he really skewered the arseholes in the DUP, who were whining as usual.
Did I just majorly Whooooosh you there ?redderneck wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:18 pmGive 'em what they want? Direct London rule. Obviate in one fell swoop any scintilla of local democratic accountability, let alone responsibility and put a kybosh on what would be seen as an irreversible slide demographically., slicing away the trappings of control and privilege they feel is their birthright.
Cement the Union for another generation, in spite of the fact that the numbers in favour of that diminish year-on-year? Feck off.
There's enough tail wagging dog going on in this world, without pandering to backwards/inwards-obsessed pricks like this.
I'm sure his inbox is being inundated as we speak. tempted to reply with "Needs more tits"
The DUP really have fucked this one up.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:25 am Sorry, it's a bit long, but Colum Eastwood made a brilliant statement in the House, & he really skewered the arseholes in the DUP, who were whining as usual.
2018 - we have all these brilliant ideas for brexit
Yeah, NI has a per capita GDP of €21k, Republic of Ireland is €86k. If reunification were to happen, the Republic would need to invest in NI in a similar way as West Germany did in the east. That would be tens of billions of euros a year to take on board a population, a big slab of which hates you, wishes you didn't exist, and may resort to violence against you.Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:22 amThe DUP really have fucked this one up.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:25 am Sorry, it's a bit long, but Colum Eastwood made a brilliant statement in the House, & he really skewered the arseholes in the DUP, who were whining as usual.
As I said in an earlier post a roadmap for a unification referendum needs laid out in the next 2 or 3 years. NI as a devolved state simply isn't working and its time to shit or get off the pot.
Let the DUP and UUP make their case for remaining part of the union, let the SDLP/Shinners make their case, let the southern parties make their case if they even want us, and what life would look like if unification were to happen, then let the people north and south decide, with a majority both north and south required for unification to happen.
Not sure what the polling data suggests in ROI but I could imagine a scenario were the north vote for a UI and the south vote against, in which case the nationalists up north need to be told to STFU for a generation and actually work within the framework to improve NI. Likewise if unification were to happen the unionist parties need to buy into the new state with "cultural provisions" to preserve their heritage blah blag blah.
They do not have a clue. The businesses most damaged by Brexit have mostly been smaller exporters.Biffer wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 10:18 am2018 - we have all these brilliant ideas for brexit
2019 - ok civil servants, we want all the brilliant ideas for brexit on our desks this month
2020 - businesses! we want to hear your brilliant ideas for brexit!
2022 - hey Sun readers, have you got any ideas for brexit?
2023 - Michael Gove returns to his netherworld form to commune with Cthulhu to find ideas for brexit
The GFA is the dual consent but it's hardly a surprise seeing as the DUP never supported the agreement in the first place.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:25 am Sorry, it's a bit long, but Colum Eastwood made a brilliant statement in the House, & he really skewered the arseholes in the DUP, who were whining as usual.
https://www.derryjournal.com/news/natio ... st-3559456Mr. Donaldson said he remembered the former Foyle MP Mark Durkan speaking of the need "'to remove some of the ugly scaffolding' of the Good Friday Agreement".
The DUP leader said: "The sooner we get on with some of that, the better, but that does not involve negating the need for dual consent in Northern Ireland. That consent is not forthcoming from the people I represent.
Probably.The sun god wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 8:30 amDid I just majorly Whooooosh you there ?redderneck wrote: ↑Fri Feb 04, 2022 3:18 pmGive 'em what they want? Direct London rule. Obviate in one fell swoop any scintilla of local democratic accountability, let alone responsibility and put a kybosh on what would be seen as an irreversible slide demographically., slicing away the trappings of control and privilege they feel is their birthright.
Cement the Union for another generation, in spite of the fact that the numbers in favour of that diminish year-on-year? Feck off.
There's enough tail wagging dog going on in this world, without pandering to backwards/inwards-obsessed pricks like this.
I don't think anyone can seriously see a reunification ref inside of ten years; but that does give us plenty of time to discuss what reunification would look like !Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 9:22 amThe DUP really have fucked this one up.fishfoodie wrote: ↑Wed Feb 09, 2022 10:25 am Sorry, it's a bit long, but Colum Eastwood made a brilliant statement in the House, & he really skewered the arseholes in the DUP, who were whining as usual.
As I said in an earlier post a roadmap for a unification referendum needs laid out in the next 2 or 3 years. NI as a devolved state simply isn't working and its time to shit or get off the pot.
Let the DUP and UUP make their case for remaining part of the union, let the SDLP/Shinners make their case, let the southern parties make their case if they even want us, and what life would look like if unification were to happen, then let the people north and south decide, with a majority both north and south required for unification to happen.
Not sure what the polling data suggests in ROI but I could imagine a scenario were the north vote for a UI and the south vote against, in which case the nationalists up north need to be told to STFU for a generation and actually work within the framework to improve NI. Likewise if unification were to happen the unionist parties need to buy into the new state with "cultural provisions" to preserve their heritage blah blag blah.
Well then they'll go the way of the dinosaurs they deny ever existedUncle fester wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:29 pm Won't work.
71% of the population of NI supported the GFA but the DUP don't do respecting democratic mandates that don't align with their dinosaur-hating worldviews.
https://www.rte.ie/news/ulster/2022/021 ... and-covid/The failure to lift remaining Covid restrictions in Northern Ireland is a "complete disgrace", the head of a leading business representative organisation has said.
Belfast Chamber chief executive Simon Hamilton, a former DUP minister, blamed "instability at Stormont" for the lack of progress this week on removing regulations.
Measures like mandatory face masks in retail and on public transport and Covid passports for nightclubs are still in place.
Health Minister Robin Swann received legal advice yesterday which highlighted potential legal complications of him acting without the wider endorsement of an Executive.
He has now written to other ministers asking for their input. The current Covid-19 regulations are not due to expire until 24 March, but were previously reviewed by the Executive every three weeks.
But Northern Ireland has no functioning Executive after the DUP removed Paul Givan as First Minister as part of a protest against the Northern Ireland Protocol.
Mr Hamilton tweeted: "It is, quite frankly, a complete disgrace that it appears, as feared, people and businesses in NI may be stuck with Covid restrictions because of instability at Stormont whilst the rest of the UK and Ireland begin to benefit from their removal."
Sinn Féin former Deputy First Minister Michelle O'Neill yesterday said that there was a "real prospect" Covid restrictions, such as the legal duty to wear face coverings, may have to remain in Northern Ireland.
But DUP leader Jeffrey Donaldson has insisted that Mr Swann has the legal authority to act and that the removal of restrictions does not need to be a collective decision.
SDLP Infrastructure Minister Nichola Mallon said the situation had arisen as a result of the "DUP boycott of Executive responsibility".
She added: "Today should have been a major milestone in our recovery from the Covid-19 pandemic.
"After all the sacrifices that people, families and businesses have made over the last two years, we should have been in a position to lift a significant number of the remaining legal restrictions.
"Instead, we're all locked into out-of-date restrictions because Jeffrey Donaldson and the DUP continue to boycott the Executive and shirk their responsibilities to people."
Earlier today, Britain's Secretary of State for Northern Ireland Brandon Lewis said unionist parties should commit to returning to powersharing if Sinn Féin emerges as the largest party after the Stormont elections.
He said he wanted to see both unionist and nationalist parties nominate for the roles of first and deputy first minister "whatever the result" in May.
Can't remember who wrote it but there was a good article recently about the fractures within unionism Vs the relative unity of the nationalists and the inability of unionists to win over their own people, let alone moderate nationalists.Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:41 am You'd like to think that UUP would capitalise on this fuck up of epic proportions and clean up at the May election to become the largest unionist party again but they are also well capable of shooting themselves in the foot. Plus the TUV will probably have a good election.
I can see the DUP falling to 3rd place in the Unionist party league table, which would be terrible for unionism as a whole with the fracturing of the vote, but hilarious to see at the same time.
Alex Kane and Susan McKay have both written about it recently.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:09 pmCan't remember who wrote it but there was a good article recently about the fractures within unionism Vs the relative unity of the nationalists and the inability of unionists to win over their own people, let alone moderate nationalists.Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Sun Feb 13, 2022 11:41 am You'd like to think that UUP would capitalise on this fuck up of epic proportions and clean up at the May election to become the largest unionist party again but they are also well capable of shooting themselves in the foot. Plus the TUV will probably have a good election.
I can see the DUP falling to 3rd place in the Unionist party league table, which would be terrible for unionism as a whole with the fracturing of the vote, but hilarious to see at the same time.
MPs mostly had no idea how the EU works... Although Elphicke should as she worked for inland revenue and a banking department for a pretty big law firm. Also set up a company which failed I noticed.
https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-60407234Jacob Rees-Mogg says little evidence Brexit hit trade
Evidence that leaving the EU has damaged UK trade is "few and far between", the government's Brexit opportunities minister has said.
Jacob Rees-Mogg, who was handed the new role last week, said recent drops in exports had been caused by disruption during Covid.
He argued that Brexit was "already a success" and is boosting the economy.
But the Office for Budget Responsibility said there was a Brexit hit to trade with the EU.
...
As Brexit has progressed NI Unionist politics has looked more reminiscent of white SA politics in the dying days of apartheid. The big problem for Unionism is they all backed not just Brexit (UUP were Remain, but stupidly flipped to Leave), but by failing to make any choice on what form of Brexit and chasing the unicorn they backed this hard Brexit too. So all their voters know they're totally implicated in an acceleration towards the ROI, and all their voters voted for that without knowing that's what they were doing (and I expect whilst dismissing those in their own community that warned them the whole way).fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:17 pm I don't think anyone can seriously see a reunification ref inside of ten years; but that does give us plenty of time to discuss what reunification would look like !
The problem is that there's almost no-one from the Unionist community, who'll meet publicly, & discuss the topic, because they know they'll get abused by the dickheads
Good comparison_Os_ wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 6:16 amAs Brexit has progressed NI Unionist politics has looked more reminiscent of white SA politics in the dying days of apartheid. The big problem for Unionism is they all backed not just Brexit (UUP were Remain, but stupidly flipped to Leave), but by failing to make any choice on what form of Brexit and chasing the unicorn they backed this hard Brexit too. So all their voters know they're totally implicated in an acceleration towards the ROI, and all their voters voted for that without knowing that's what they were doing (and I expect whilst dismissing those in their own community that warned them the whole way).fishfoodie wrote: ↑Thu Feb 10, 2022 6:17 pm I don't think anyone can seriously see a reunification ref inside of ten years; but that does give us plenty of time to discuss what reunification would look like !
The problem is that there's almost no-one from the Unionist community, who'll meet publicly, & discuss the topic, because they know they'll get abused by the dickheads
The reason they will not talk about unification, is because as soon as they do, it becomes more likely. The discussion then isn't "yes" or "no", it instead becomes what to them is the surrender terms.
In SA I guess it was a bit different in that the 1983 and 1992 referendums showed there was a majority of whites which wanted constitutional change, which most at the time interpreted as ending apartheid (especially the 1992 referendum). It was hard to get this will of the majority through the party politics and the fptp electoral system SA had then though (with rigged constituencies).
But anyway, the 1987 and 1989 elections are quite telling. In 1987 there were 3m registered white voters. 1.075m voted National party (the governing party), 547k Conservative Party (an even more far-right split of the National Party) 288k Progressive Federal Party (a liberal party that opposed apartheid), and 1m didn't vote. In 1989 1.039m voted National Party, 680k Conservative Party, 431k Democratic Party (the successor to Progressive Federal party after some mergers), and 1m didn't vote. Despite the Conservative Party growing less than the Democratic Party in absolute and relative terms, the Conservative Party grew more in terms of seats in parliament (because of fptp and crooked constituencies).
The take away in all that wasn't the National Party declining a small amount, nor was it the big growth in the Conservative Party (which never mind ending apartheid, wanted to harden it), it was the growth of the Democratic Party against the odds and despite it still not being a large amount of the 3 million registered voters. In a political system where there's a big existential question, eg "should there be a united Ireland?" or "should apartheid end?", the movement tends to be away from the centre and towards the extremes. When reality hits people, the reaction of most is to double down. We've seen that with Brexit also, it was always framed as a binary question without a middle ground (the Tories have become more extreme, and the Brexit that has happened is more extreme than anything anyone originally campaigned for). So when there is any movement at all towards the centre, especially by a community that stands to lose out, then that's a huge signal. There can't really be any middle ground on "should there be a united Ireland", so when a Unionist votes Alliance they're really saying they're now okay in some shape or form with a united Ireland. If Alliance grows by a bit that's more significant than some DUP voters becoming more extreme and supporting TUV.
At the end of apartheid the National Party negotiated for the government side (which meant for the whites), they basically tried to negotiate for group rights (in other words special carve outs for whites) and failed. The Conservative Party played no role in anything really and everything further to the right (AWB), just huffed and puffed and also influenced nothing (the tiny minority who started bombing were arrested/imprisoned/killed). The problem with not being realistic and getting more extreme, is any chance to influence anything disappears. Today 90%+ of whites who vote, vote for the DA (the successor to the PFP and DP), because if there's a party that wants to improve the lives of everyone that's a better choice than a narrow interest group fighting a war that's already lost and cannot be won.
If Unionist parties were sensible they would be trying to secure pensions, some fair system for whatever happens to land (it's always about the land), equal rights based in individualism not group membership (it can be dangerous for minorities to have their minority status recognised in law, because it opens the door to discrimination decades later, this is even more true for non-visible minorities). The stuff about flags and marches will just seem like irrelevant bullshit as soon as this gets real.
I expect that instead at some point probably not long from now events will just get ahead of them, they'll find they have no influence and no friends (it'll be electoral gold dust for any American president who is involved with bringing about a united Ireland), then they'll have to hope the people they regard enemies are actually decent people.
I would agree, especially with the loss of manufacturing jobs which would have been Group 2's foundation, although the constitutional issue hasn't impacted that to a large degree (most of the remaining big manufacturers haven't been hit by Brexit, yet). A united Ireland or remaining part of the UK won't change this.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:42 am Jim
In my experience, there's three groups rather than just two in NI. You have 1. middle class unionists like yourself (small U deliberate), 2. working class Protestants who would fall under the banner of "Loyalist" and 3. Catholics/Nationalists/nationalists who despite their differing social groupings tend to be pretty unified when it comes to working towards "big picture" common goals.
Group 2 have been totally left behind by progress and they are pissed, justifiably so to my mind. Group 1 have more in common with a good chunk of group 3 than they do their fellow Protestants in group 2.
I haven't seen the data, but my perception has been that, if you took two equivalent working class groups, from Nationalist, & Loyalist backgrounds, there's much higher expectation of having a 3rd level education on the Nationalist side ?Jim Lahey wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 12:12 pmI would agree, especially with the loss of manufacturing jobs which would have been Group 2's foundation, although the constitutional issue hasn't impacted that to a large degree (most of the remaining big manufacturers haven't been hit by Brexit, yet). A united Ireland or remaining part of the UK won't change this.Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:42 am Jim
In my experience, there's three groups rather than just two in NI. You have 1. middle class unionists like yourself (small U deliberate), 2. working class Protestants who would fall under the banner of "Loyalist" and 3. Catholics/Nationalists/nationalists who despite their differing social groupings tend to be pretty unified when it comes to working towards "big picture" common goals.
Group 2 have been totally left behind by progress and they are pissed, justifiably so to my mind. Group 1 have more in common with a good chunk of group 3 than they do their fellow Protestants in group 2.
The Unionist parties have largely neglected the needs Group 2 by not encouraging training in new skills or pushing for UK support to encourage FDI (they have in IT but that doesn't help the working classes).
Acknowledging that - and I'm in broad agreement with you - how the hell do you get past it? What does that look like? Who does that look like?Uncle fester wrote: ↑Fri Feb 18, 2022 11:42 am Jim
In my experience, there's three groups rather than just two in NI. You have 1. middle class unionists like yourself (small U deliberate), 2. working class Protestants who would fall under the banner of "Loyalist" and 3. Catholics/Nationalists/nationalists who despite their differing social groupings tend to be pretty unified when it comes to working towards "big picture" common goals.
Group 2 have been totally left behind by progress and they are pissed, justifiably so to my mind. Group 1 have more in common with a good chunk of group 3 than they do their fellow Protestants in group 2.
