Agree with point 1, and point 2 he's definitely improved but he's no Tom Croft. I'd hesitate to say actively slow, he did make a try-saver on Scott Williams, and although not his forte his tight and loose carrying is markedly improved from early in his career.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 6:12 pmNo I get it, and from my perspective this is just a discussion. But I'd say that I don't rate any of his performances since the RWC bar maybe one (and I can't remember which one it was!) and his total lack of club form plus his injury record mean that I am less enthused by him than by some of the guys who have more impact than he does at club level. Obviously he has the international experience and pedigree that they cannot point to. Anyway, his weaknesses:inactionman wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:39 pmI just disagree, sorry. He's performed against the best in the world on the international stage over a period of time - the WC wasn't the first time he's played well. All the others mentioned, simply put, really haven't - with the exception of Lawes.JM2K6 wrote: ↑Mon Feb 14, 2022 5:10 pm Underhill in 55mins v SA: 3 tackles made, 2 missed. 1 carry for 0m. 1 pass. Practically invisible while watching the game apart from the penalty he gave away.
Look, I agree class is permanent. I'm just not sure Underhill merits being rated above Jack Willis or Ben Curry or Courtney Lawes. Alfie Barbeary I can understand being a bit of an eyebrow-raiser, because he's still very raw and that'd be a punt on what he does well (bulldozer carrying, ball-thieving) and hoping the rest of his game catches up.
Underhill has a fair few downsides to his game and if that hammer tackling isn't getting him anywhere he really doesn't offer as much as any of the alternatives.
I'd be interested in what the downsides you note are, all I see is an workhorse beast of a defender who jackals with the best of them and has added to his running game. Yes, Barbeary is a much more impressive carrier but that isn't the prime role, nor is catching at the lineout.
Apols if I'm appearing tetchy but, seriously, one poor game and a run of injuries and he's written off. Like the worst of 1990s England cricket. It's mad.
1) No lineout presence at all
2) Pretty leaden-footed - he's slow and his footwork is not great (he has worked on this and his carrying actually exists now)
3) His jackal work has not kicked on, it was a real bonus early in his international career but he seems to have regressed there
4) He actually misses a fair few tackles now. I wrote this one before checking, but actually: His stats for Oz and SA are attempted 13 (not a lot for a flanker in approx 100 minutes), missed 6.
plus 5) is that he's fairly likely to KO himself in a game...
I know it's not international rugby but watching him put in poor performance after poor performance at club level really worries me. We've seen Ben Curry play bloody well for England, and he's a standout for Sale; his brother is fantastic and there's not much between them. Jack Willis is, IMO, a generational talent: a guy who influences every single game he plays in, one of the best I've seen over the ball and with a superb record of try scoring from his heavy carrying.
Points 3 and 4 are the issues related to form.
Point 5 is unfortunately getting far too frequent for comfort, especially the last few where he doesn't seem to be in a good position. I'd still say related to the issue of from noted above.
He's not featured that much for Bath this season - probably for the best - but it's not impossible to perform even in a losing cause. Anthony Watson was in great nick before he popped his knee, which is just adding injury to insult as he was the only Bath player still in top form. It just seems Underhill never got a run of games fully fit and firing, much like Faletau's sadly interrupted time at the club. Would have loved to have really seen Flouw, Underhill and Faletau motoring in the backrow, with Mercer in the mix. Just never happened, with injuries, covid and (in Mercer's case) Eddie and Hooper.
All good players who can do a job in the back row when required, but usually alongside other recognised back row players.
