Red Card - New laws?

[ia801310]

Most rugby players don't play to entertain you. They play because they love the game. Go down to your local club and watch the 4th team play, as much passion as the pros..

This 100%, Rugby is going nowhere

Oh right so rugby doesn't need supporters and would carry on regardless?
Seriously..
WTF?

Nobody is forcing you to watch it. I don't share your pessimism about Rugby but I guess only time will tell who is right.

I think the bigger danger for Rugby is chasing markets that don't exist whilst neglecting the core countries.

[GogLais]

This 100%, Rugby is going nowhere

Oh right so rugby doesn't need supporters and would carry on regardless?
Seriously..
WTF?

Nobody is forcing you to watch it. I don't share your pessimism about Rugby but I guess only time will tell who is right.

I think the bigger danger for Rugby is chasing markets that don't exist whilst neglecting the core countries.

Re chasing markets that don’t exist - there’s been a long and complex debate here about the laws relating to and the refereeing of the breakdown. Good luck with breaking into new mass markets when games can be decided by what will seem like arbitrary narrow decisions to the lay person.

[GogLais]

This 100%, Rugby is going nowhere

Oh right so rugby doesn't need supporters and would carry on regardless?
Seriously..
WTF?

Nobody is forcing you to watch it. I don't share your pessimism about Rugby but I guess only time will tell who is right.

I think the bigger danger for Rugby is chasing markets that don't exist whilst neglecting the core countries.

I’m at least partly in the same boat as Line 6. I don’t know if I posted it in this thread but the commentary at the start of the Scarlets Dragons game was dominated by concussion issues relating to three players. I’m pretty sure that during the game another two went off for and failed HIAs. I stayed and watched it but it isn’t always comfortable viewing.

[Slick]

This 100%, Rugby is going nowhere

Oh right so rugby doesn't need supporters and would carry on regardless?
Seriously..
WTF?

Nobody is forcing you to watch it. I don't share your pessimism about Rugby but I guess only time will tell who is right.

I think the bigger danger for Rugby is chasing markets that don't exist whilst neglecting the core countries.

The problem with this is that huge numbers of clubs have already lost their 3rd/4th/5th teams and they are not coming back

However, the point about chasing new markets 100% agree with, it's ludicrous

[Torquemada 1420]

Re chasing markets that don’t exist - there’s been a long and complex debate here about the laws relating to and the refereeing of the breakdown. Good luck with breaking into new mass markets when games can be decided by what will seem like arbitrary narrow decisions to the lay person.

100% this. In fact, it's possibly the reverse i.e. alienating existing watchers at the fringes who simply can't be arsed any more. 7s is a much more marketable game to the masses than XVs.

[SaintK]

So Biggar finally got the red card he's been asking for the past few weeks on Saturday
Happened in the 28th minute and probably cost Saints the match.
Such a crucial time for him to go missing in the Prem run in.............twat!!!!

[Kawazaki]

Biggar doesn't just tackle high, he jumps up to tackle high! It's a dreadful technique that shows a total lack of coaching (and self-awareness) to be honest.

[Slick]

Is that the tackle he got red for?

[JM2K6]

Oh right so rugby doesn't need supporters and would carry on regardless?
Seriously..
WTF?

Nobody is forcing you to watch it. I don't share your pessimism about Rugby but I guess only time will tell who is right.

I think the bigger danger for Rugby is chasing markets that don't exist whilst neglecting the core countries.

I’m at least partly in the same boat as Line 6. I don’t know if I posted it in this thread but the commentary at the start of the Scarlets Dragons game was dominated by concussion issues relating to three players. I’m pretty sure that during the game another two went off for and failed HIAs. I stayed and watched it but it isn’t always comfortable viewing.

If Wales were more successful this season he'd be taking an entirely different tack so I suspect yours is a more honest viewpoint.

Imo rugby needs more major surgery right now, the tinkering isn't working. My main two issues are player safety - mostly tackle and "collision" based - and the wildly different interpretations of the laws at the ruck. Neither problem is solved with tweaks.

[Ymx]

It must have looked worse from another angle. Not seeing force as a big component of that. Perhaps another angle might show force. Maybe at the start there’s more contact than it appears.

Shame if it ruined the game. No 20 min rule in prem then?

[JM2K6]

It must have looked worse from another angle. Not seeing force as a big component of that. Perhaps another angle might show force. Maybe at the start there’s more contact than it appears.

Shame if it ruined the game. No 20 min rule in prem then?

He literally jumps into the guy with a shoulder to the head, how much force do you want?

[Lobby]

It must have looked worse from another angle. Not seeing force as a big component of that. Perhaps another angle might show force. Maybe at the start there’s more contact than it appears.

Shame if it ruined the game. No 20 min rule in prem then?

He literally jumps into the guy with a shoulder to the head, how much force do you want?

It's about time Biggar was penalised for jumping into tackles and targeting players' heads, which seems to be part of his regular technique. He did the same against Maro Itoje in 2019. Rather than being penalised for a deliberately high and dangerous tackle, he was lauded by Welsh fans.



You can see the video here

https://www.rugbydump.com/news/that-dan ... unishment/

As some said at the time, if Farrell had done the same thing, there would have been an outcry.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Biggar doesn't just tackle high, he jumps up to tackle high! It's a dreadful technique that shows a total lack of coaching (and self-awareness) to be honest.

I think the coaches will be pretty happy with him. At least I suspect they're going to want players to seek contact, apply pressure, fill a hole etc. Given the angle he's coming from Biggar is at least partly blocked from making a tackle that's 'better' by the shoulder/elbow position of the carrier, and by his own team mate, at which point the game wants him to stand off and not just fly into contact in uncontrolled fashion, but I don't know he shows a lack of coaching, I think the coaches will take seeking contact over player safety and they do want him to act even if it's not especially controlled. Sometimes as in this instance the lack of control will cost, but I bet on balance they reason the go forward/seek contact mentality works in their favour

[Kawazaki]

Biggar doesn't just tackle high, he jumps up to tackle high! It's a dreadful technique that shows a total lack of coaching (and self-awareness) to be honest.

I think the coaches will be pretty happy with him. At least I suspect they're going to want players to seek contact, apply pressure, fill a hole etc. Given the angle he's coming from Biggar is at least partly blocked from making a tackle that's 'better' by the shoulder/elbow position of the carrier, and by his own team mate, at which point the game wants him to stand off and not just fly into contact in uncontrolled fashion, but I don't know he shows a lack of coaching, I think the coaches will take seeking contact over player safety and they do want him to act even if it's not especially controlled. Sometimes as in this instance the lack of control will cost, but I bet on balance they reason the go forward/seek contact mentality works in their favour

That is a fairly mental take on that tackle, and I say that as one of the moderate conservatives when it comes to the often hysterical atmosphere regarding anything close to a borderline high-shot.

[Torquemada 1420]

Biggar doesn't just tackle high, he jumps up to tackle high! It's a dreadful technique that shows a total lack of coaching (and self-awareness) to be honest.

Seen him piggyback a number of time which he gets away with because it's from behind but same jump into the tackle technique.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Biggar doesn't just tackle high, he jumps up to tackle high! It's a dreadful technique that shows a total lack of coaching (and self-awareness) to be honest.

I think the coaches will be pretty happy with him. At least I suspect they're going to want players to seek contact, apply pressure, fill a hole etc. Given the angle he's coming from Biggar is at least partly blocked from making a tackle that's 'better' by the shoulder/elbow position of the carrier, and by his own team mate, at which point the game wants him to stand off and not just fly into contact in uncontrolled fashion, but I don't know he shows a lack of coaching, I think the coaches will take seeking contact over player safety and they do want him to act even if it's not especially controlled. Sometimes as in this instance the lack of control will cost, but I bet on balance they reason the go forward/seek contact mentality works in their favour

That is a fairly mental take on that tackle, and I say that as one of the moderate conservatives when it comes to the often hysterical atmosphere regarding anything close to a borderline high-shot.

That's perhaps not an unfair observation. But if your job is coaching people to fly into other people at speed with a high degree a danger in the name of winning some lack of mental stability is at least in some ways a boon, normal people would think in terms of fairness, safety and so on, people involved in rugby management think in terms of dominating and winning

And this presents a challenge if you want to ameliorate behaviour such as Biggar's head high shot, because the laws need to cater for people who don't want to give an inch, not so much for people that would be more reasonable because they wouldn't be as daft to begin with

[Kawazaki]

Biggar has been a professional rugby player for 15 years, we're not breaking in a kid who spent his youth in borstal.

[JM2K6]

I think the coaches will be pretty happy with him. At least I suspect they're going to want players to seek contact, apply pressure, fill a hole etc. Given the angle he's coming from Biggar is at least partly blocked from making a tackle that's 'better' by the shoulder/elbow position of the carrier, and by his own team mate, at which point the game wants him to stand off and not just fly into contact in uncontrolled fashion, but I don't know he shows a lack of coaching, I think the coaches will take seeking contact over player safety and they do want him to act even if it's not especially controlled. Sometimes as in this instance the lack of control will cost, but I bet on balance they reason the go forward/seek contact mentality works in their favour

That is a fairly mental take on that tackle, and I say that as one of the moderate conservatives when it comes to the often hysterical atmosphere regarding anything close to a borderline high-shot.

That's perhaps not an unfair observation. But if your job is coaching people to fly into other people at speed with a high degree a danger in the name of winning some lack of mental stability is at least in some ways a boon, normal people would think in terms of fairness, safety and so on, people involved in rugby management think in terms of dominating and winning

And this presents a challenge if you want to ameliorate behaviour such as Biggar's head high shot, because the laws need to cater for people who don't want to give an inch, not so much for people that would be more reasonable because they wouldn't be as daft to begin with

Jumping into tackles like that seems uniquely a Dan Biggar problem. It's not actually more effective than trying to tackle legally, and coaches are very much going to be pissed off with their star flyhalf consistently hurting the team with penalties and cards.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

And professional people in rugby want their players to seek contact. They'd rather take the risk of a card, even a red, than have more passive contacts or even a lack of contacts at the tackle line.

I'm not suggesting that's the correct line of thinking, only I don't think Biggar shows a lack of coaching, I think rather he's doing what his coaches would want and therein lies a problem in even trying to make the players safer. His coaches would prefer he only connects a little lower and doesn't concede a penalty, but the mindset to initiate contact and accept some risk doesn't scream any sort of aberration from what's coached into professional players

[Rhubarb & Custard]

That is a fairly mental take on that tackle, and I say that as one of the moderate conservatives when it comes to the often hysterical atmosphere regarding anything close to a borderline high-shot.

That's perhaps not an unfair observation. But if your job is coaching people to fly into other people at speed with a high degree a danger in the name of winning some lack of mental stability is at least in some ways a boon, normal people would think in terms of fairness, safety and so on, people involved in rugby management think in terms of dominating and winning

And this presents a challenge if you want to ameliorate behaviour such as Biggar's head high shot, because the laws need to cater for people who don't want to give an inch, not so much for people that would be more reasonable because they wouldn't be as daft to begin with

Jumping into tackles like that seems uniquely a Dan Biggar problem. It's not actually more effective than trying to tackle legally, and coaches are very much going to be pissed off with their star flyhalf consistently hurting the team with penalties and cards.

Biggar has history no doubt. Just in how that specific contact comes about I can see why Biggar might wonder how he makes contact whilst keeping his face out of a shoulder/elbow. And once he has the possible conflict he can either think bollocks to this and jump into contact, or hold back. And I'd be willing to guess what many coaches would actually say about being passive Vs jumping into contact even with a lack of control

[Kawazaki]

...he can either think bollocks to this and jump into contact, or hold back.

Those aren't the only two options.

[JM2K6]

Yeah uh there's a reason we don't see people jump into contact. The situation presented there is not abnormal on a rugby pitch. Jumping into that tackle (regardless of shoulder to face) is not the only option for making a decent defensive action, otherwise we'd see it all the time.

[Brazil]

We were always taught not to jump into the tackle because it was shit and ineffective, so fuck knows what Biggar thinks he's playing at.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

...he can either think bollocks to this and jump into contact, or hold back.

Those aren't the only two options.

Or he can plant his face into a shoulder and/or elbow, or he can try to morph into space his teammate is already using. What else? Just go really low trying to get beneath the elbow, or try to grab a shoulder and haul down whilst being driven backwards? As Biggar is coming across with the angle the carrier is leaning towards him I don't think that will look like an easy picture to envisage making a clean/controlled and effective tackle, I'd consider that would encourage the panic that sees the bad tackle attempt made rather than he's just going to jump into the tackle whatever.

I could of course be wrong in this, and actually every time Biggar has jumped into a tackle his coaches have said that's a problem Dan, we'll be doing 20 minutes extras every day for the next 1-2 weeks across a number of scenarios to seek an improvement in this area of your game, both for the safety of others and to reduce the risk of penalties and cards to us. However I just think it more likely they'll consider something along the lines of defence is a mindset, there are hundreds of collisions every game, and we're happy to see our players want to seek contact even if every now and then that costs us because the alternative of being more cautious is a much bigger risk in our estimation. Basically I doubt any of his jumping into tackles moments have led to much if any extra detail on his tackling, and if they're not spending actual serious time addressing it they cannot think it serious. They might say they'd attend a course just to get a sanction reduced, some may place more value on that than I would

How one ups the sanction such coaches would try to cut out 100% of high tackles I don't know. It already comes with a risk of a red card and a long ban, we could add a penalty try to that no matter where the offence takes place and even before a lot of people would dislike such influence on the game the coaches might think we're still going to get away with a lot of collisions where players don't make the ideal tackle, and we'd still rather out players want to seek contact. I don't know how many tackles Saints go between red cards, nor how many of them would be less than ideal such as Biggar tried that managed to stay legal or at least escape sanction, but they likely do and they actively accept the tradeoff

[sockwithaticket]

It becomes increasingly clear that most coaches and players only pay lip service to player safety in the tackle. If it stops a turnover or an offload etc. they're more than happy for to dangerously smash into the opposition. It's really unclear how that mindset gets changed.

Biggar has gotten away with going high like that on a few occasions prior to this one where he's actually been punished, so of course his coaches haven't addressed it with him. However, I can well imagine he'll just get some limp conversation about trying to do better next time rather than be asked to do anything tangible about technique because the coaches don't really give a shit. If he gets punished again, they might.

[Kawazaki]

...he can either think bollocks to this and jump into contact, or hold back.

Those aren't the only two options.

Or he can plant his face into a shoulder and/or elbow, or he can try to morph into space his teammate is already using. What else? Just go really low trying to get beneath the elbow, or try to grab a shoulder and haul down whilst being driven backwards? As Biggar is coming across with the angle the carrier is leaning towards him I don't think that will look like an easy picture to envisage making a clean/controlled and effective tackle, I'd consider that would encourage the panic that sees the bad tackle attempt made rather than he's just going to jump into the tackle whatever.

I could of course be wrong in this, and actually every time Biggar has jumped into a tackle his coaches have said that's a problem Dan, we'll be doing 20 minutes extras every day for the next 1-2 weeks across a number of scenarios to seek an improvement in this area of your game, both for the safety of others and to reduce the risk of penalties and cards to us. However I just think it more likely they'll consider something along the lines of defence is a mindset, there are hundreds of collisions every game, and we're happy to see our players want to seek contact even if every now and then that costs us because the alternative of being more cautious is a much bigger risk in our estimation. Basically I doubt any of his jumping into tackles moments have led to much if any extra detail on his tackling, and if they're not spending actual serious time addressing it they cannot think it serious. They might say they'd attend a course just to get a sanction reduced, some may place more value on that than I would

How one ups the sanction such coaches would try to cut out 100% of high tackles I don't know. It already comes with a risk of a red card and a long ban, we could add a penalty try to that no matter where the offence takes place and even before a lot of people would dislike such influence on the game the coaches might think we're still going to get away with a lot of collisions where players don't make the ideal tackle, and we'd still rather out players want to seek contact. I don't know how many tackles Saints go between red cards, nor how many of them would be less than ideal such as Biggar tried that managed to stay legal or at least escape sanction, but they likely do and they actively accept the tradeoff

You're verbose aren't you.

I don't think I've got anything to add that I haven't said already.

[SaintK]

So Biggar finally got the red card he's been asking for the past few weeks on Saturday
Happened in the 28th minute and probably cost Saints the match.
Such a crucial time for him to go missing in the Prem run in.............twat!!!!

Six weeks reduced to 3

Northampton Saints fly-half Dan Biggar has been suspended for three weeks following an independent Disciplinary Hearing following the Club’s Challenge Cup clash against Gloucester Rugby at Kingsholm.

Because of the men in Black, Green and Gold’s forthcoming fixture schedule, Biggar is free to play again from Monday 23 May – however, if he applies for and completes a World Rugby Coaching Intervention, he will be free to play from Monday 2 May.