What to do with Beauden Barrett?

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Richie is shit compared to Beauden and you won't sway me otherwise.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Many NZ rugby observers are not only calling Richie comfortably the best 10 in the country, but in fact the player of the season in Super Rugby Aotearoa.

[Amethyst]

Richie is shit compared to Beauden and you won't sway me otherwise.

You don't know what the fuck you are talking about. Many NZ rugby observers are not only calling Richie comfortably the best 10 in the country, but in fact the player of the season in Super Rugby Aotearoa.

Barrett is a better test player. Richie does well in handball/netball style NZ superrugby which is shit,headless rugby.

[JM2K6]

Mo'unga has binned the habit of making 2-3 big errors a game and the only thing he does that's not top class is tackle.

[booji boy]

Mo'unga has binned the habit of making 2-3 big errors a game and the only thing he does that's not top class is tackle.

I wouldn't call it a glaring weakness though. I saw him make some great tackles during SRA, especially cover tackles.

[Jb1981]

Mo'unga has binned the habit of making 2-3 big errors a game and the only thing he does that's not top class is tackle.

I wouldn't call it a glaring weakness though. I saw him make some great tackles during SRA, especially cover tackles.

I wouldn’t call it a weakness at all. Rugby Pass had him tackling at 82% in Super Rugby Aotearoa.

[Carter's Choice]

Mo'unga has binned the habit of making 2-3 big errors a game and the only thing he does that's not top class is tackle.

He's won 4 SR titles and three provincial titles before that, and replaced dual WR Player of the Year Bauden Barrett at 10 for the AB's in late 2019 despite BB being the coach's favourite player and possibly his cabana boy. What an achievement from a first five who make so many "big errors" every single match. It's almost as if you don't know what you're talking about?

[Carter's Choice]

Interesting to see that Ian Foster is laying the groundwork for Barrett's return to the All Black no.10 jersey.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... acks-at-10

“I’ve always said I think he’s a 10 who plays 15, and that really hasn’t changed.” said Foster of Barrett who played fullback almost exclusively for the All Blacks in 2019 and only moved into the No 10 role for the Blues over the back end of Super Rugby Aotearoa.

“He’s had a pretty rich history in the black jersey as a starting 10.

Foster even conceded he now had an exciting “two-horse” race for the black No 10 jersey, even while his fellow selector Grant Fox was doing his level best to dampen expectations of next Saturday’s interisland showdown providing any definitive answers.

“They are two outstanding players who are proven at international level,” said Foster. “It’s been well documented Beaudy has played a lot of rugby at 15, but he’s gone into 10 the last few weeks. We see this as a chance for him to get another game under his belt and get used to playing there again.

“It’s going to be an interesting contest. We’ve got high regard for both and Beaudy has still got some flexibility around the positional thing. The good thing is we’ve got two exceptional rugby players that people are talking about.”

[mrbrownstone]

Richie Mo'unga is clearly the best 10 in New Zealand, and any selection policy that doesn't recognise this is inept.

Having said that, I wouldn't discount Beauden Barrett at fullback just yet. I still think he's clearly the best option. Writing off proven, world class All Blacks based off Super Rugby form rarely ends well. We heard for years that Nonu was done, McCaw was past it, and Carter would never be back. BB deserves to remain the incumbent until his test form dictates otherwise.

[Carter's Choice]

Richie Mo'unga is clearly the best 10 in New Zealand, and any selection policy that doesn't recognise this is inept.

According to the current All Black head coach there is nothing clear about it. It's an "exciting two horse race" between BB and Mo'unga for the All Black 10 jersey.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Interesting to see that Ian Foster is laying the groundwork for Barrett's return to the All Black no.10 jersey.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... acks-at-10

“I’ve always said I think he’s a 10 who plays 15, and that really hasn’t changed.” said Foster of Barrett who played fullback almost exclusively for the All Blacks in 2019 and only moved into the No 10 role for the Blues over the back end of Super Rugby Aotearoa.

“He’s had a pretty rich history in the black jersey as a starting 10.

Foster even conceded he now had an exciting “two-horse” race for the black No 10 jersey, even while his fellow selector Grant Fox was doing his level best to dampen expectations of next Saturday’s interisland showdown providing any definitive answers.

“They are two outstanding players who are proven at international level,” said Foster. “It’s been well documented Beaudy has played a lot of rugby at 15, but he’s gone into 10 the last few weeks. We see this as a chance for him to get another game under his belt and get used to playing there again.

“It’s going to be an interesting contest. We’ve got high regard for both and Beaudy has still got some flexibility around the positional thing. The good thing is we’ve got two exceptional rugby players that people are talking about.”

Absolutely, but that's what shit coaches do. Make wrong calls. Even when it comes to their own specialist position.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Richie Mo'unga is clearly the best 10 in New Zealand, and any selection policy that doesn't recognise this is inept.

Having said that, I wouldn't discount Beauden Barrett at fullback just yet. I still think he's clearly the best option. Writing off proven, world class All Blacks based off Super Rugby form rarely ends well. We heard for years that Nonu was done, McCaw was past it, and Carter would never be back. BB deserves to remain the incumbent until his test form dictates otherwise.

I don't think any informed rugby observer would write off Barrett as a fullback, back up 10 or bench option. He's still a world class rugby player, just not the best 10 in New Zealand.

[Carter's Choice]

Another BB sympathy piece on stuff.co.nz. It seems strange that all of a sudden a number of journalists are running pro-BB stories on the same day.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... udy-debate


It quotes James Parsons, who says he'd pick BB over Mo'unga for the All Blacks 10 jersey

Parsons, a former All Blacks hooker still plying his trade with the Blues, put forward a strong case for Barrett to be the playmaker based on his building form throughout the domestic competition where he returned form a lengthy layoff, first at fullback, but then at No 10 for the vastly improved Blues outfit.

T“I don’t think we can look past how good Beaudy looked at 10 when he moved there,” Parsons told the Aotearoa Rugby Podcast on Rugby Pass.

“Richie – don’t get me wrong, I’ve raved about him, I think he’s great and he’s definitely the form 10 – but with the three games Beaudy had at 10, he changed our attack massively.

“Just his ability to be flat at the line and hold defenders, his ability to kick and pass.

“It’s a tough decision and one that’s just not going to get answered because you could start either of them.

“Richie’s probably got the inside running because he’s played seven games, and even before Super, because Beaudy had that sabbatical, he’s been the form one all year.

“He just has that ability to cut teams open regularly, and he’s also a pretty sharp shooter with the boot, so it’s a tough one.

“I’m going to be biased. I would probably pick Beaudy but that’s just because he’s in my team and that’s just the natural way it is, but I appreciate what Richie’s got about his game.”

And continues by quoting Brad Weber

“Beaudy’s got so many years, though, of just quality first-five work for the All Blacks, so it’s going to take a fair bit to take that off Beaudy as well,” Weber said on the Aotearoa Rugby Podcast on Rugby Pass.

[Gumboot]

Richie Mo'unga is clearly the best 10 in New Zealand, and any selection policy that doesn't recognise this is inept.

Having said that, I wouldn't discount Beauden Barrett at fullback just yet. I still think he's clearly the best option. Writing off proven, world class All Blacks based off Super Rugby form rarely ends well. We heard for years that Nonu was done, McCaw was past it, and Carter would never be back. BB deserves to remain the incumbent until his test form dictates otherwise.

I don't think any informed rugby observer would write off Barrett as a fullback, back up 10 or bench option. He's still a world class rugby player, just not the best 10 in New Zealand.

No, but is he the second best? I don't see much wrong with Foster pitting him against Mo'unga in this game tbh - that's what trial games are for. With all the young gun fullbacks around, I really wouldn't mind seeing him back in the ABs no.23 jersey - he's probably the best impact player we've ever had.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

Richie Mo'unga is clearly the best 10 in New Zealand, and any selection policy that doesn't recognise this is inept.

Having said that, I wouldn't discount Beauden Barrett at fullback just yet. I still think he's clearly the best option. Writing off proven, world class All Blacks based off Super Rugby form rarely ends well. We heard for years that Nonu was done, McCaw was past it, and Carter would never be back. BB deserves to remain the incumbent until his test form dictates otherwise.

I don't think any informed rugby observer would write off Barrett as a fullback, back up 10 or bench option. He's still a world class rugby player, just not the best 10 in New Zealand.

No, but is he the second best? I don't see much wrong with Foster pitting him against Mo'unga in this game tbh - that's what trial games are for. With all the young gun fullbacks around, I really wouldn't mind seeing him back in the ABs no.23 jersey - he's probably the best impact player we've ever had.

If I was picking an AB squad to play this weekend that's where I'd be selecting Barrett. At 22 or 23 potentially covering both 10 and 15.

[Jb1981]

The attributes Parson’s called out are all areas Mo’unga is clearly stronger:

Just his ability to be flat at the line and hold defenders, his ability to kick and pass.

These are the areas Barrett struggles in. When he is flat to the line he doesn’t have time. That is when he turns sideways and costs his outside players or is forced into poor kicks.

If Foster truly sees a race for the first-five slot and not Mo’unga resting over the line waiting for Barrett to finish, he is as poor a judge as most of us feared.

[Enzedder]

Richie Mo'unga is clearly the best 10 in New Zealand, and any selection policy that doesn't recognise this is inept.

According to the current All Black head coach there is nothing clear about it. It's an "exciting two horse race" between BB and Mo'unga for the All Black 10 jersey.

It is - the match-up that I am looking forward to most in the North - South game

[Monkey Magic]

Richie Mo'unga is clearly the best 10 in New Zealand, and any selection policy that doesn't recognise this is inept.

Having said that, I wouldn't discount Beauden Barrett at fullback just yet. I still think he's clearly the best option. Writing off proven, world class All Blacks based off Super Rugby form rarely ends well. We heard for years that Nonu was done, McCaw was past it, and Carter would never be back. BB deserves to remain the incumbent until his test form dictates otherwise.

I don't think any informed rugby observer would write off Barrett as a fullback, back up 10 or bench option. He's still a world class rugby player, just not the best 10 in New Zealand.

No, but is he the second best? I don't see much wrong with Foster pitting him against Mo'unga in this game tbh - that's what trial games are for. With all the young gun fullbacks around, I really wouldn't mind seeing him back in the ABs no.23 jersey - he's probably the best impact player we've ever had.

When was the last time he fulfilled that impact role. I know he was coming in from sabbatical but he didn't really light things up at fullback for the blues

[Carter's Choice]

It is - the match-up that I am looking forward to most in the North - South game

Tbf, they've opposed each other numerous times at SR level, with Mo'unga outplaying BB on every occasion. If Richie outplays Barrett in this match it will be business as usual/ nothing to see here/Rolls Royce pack etc. However were the contest to be even, or were BB to play marginally better, that would be seized upon by Ian Foster as reason for BB to wear the All Black 10 jersey for the entirety of the next RWC cycle.

[Carter's Choice]

When was the last time he fulfilled that impact role. I know he was coming in from sabbatical but he didn't really light things up at fullback for the blues

He made one line break for the entire Super Rugby Aoteara. He looked slow and disinterested throughout. But because he's the highest paid player in NZ, and the coach's favourite, he'll get to choose wherever he plays.

[JM2K6]

Mo'unga has binned the habit of making 2-3 big errors a game and the only thing he does that's not top class is tackle.

He's won 4 SR titles and three provincial titles before that, and replaced dual WR Player of the Year Bauden Barrett at 10 for the AB's in late 2019 despite BB being the coach's favourite player and possibly his cabana boy. What an achievement from a first five who make so many "big errors" every single match. It's almost as if you don't know what you're talking about?

You can go look at me discussing Mo'unga's performances on the old board if you like.

Winning SR titles doesn't make you a perfect player. And if you chance your arm as often as he does and push the limit, you're gonna fuck up occasionally. I'm praising him for reining that in slightly while remaining a game-changing player. And you're throwing a strop.

[Carter's Choice]

Mo'unga has binned the habit of making 2-3 big errors a game and the only thing he does that's not top class is tackle.

He's won 4 SR titles and three provincial titles before that, and replaced dual WR Player of the Year Bauden Barrett at 10 for the AB's in late 2019 despite BB being the coach's favourite player and possibly his cabana boy. What an achievement from a first five who make so many "big errors" every single match. It's almost as if you don't know what you're talking about?

You can go look at me discussing Mo'unga's performances on the old board if you like.

Winning SR titles doesn't make you a perfect player.

If he made 2-3 "bad errors" a game he wouldn't have played 1st XV Rugby for his school, let alone play for Canterbury, the Crusaders or the AB's. As usual, you're drowning in hyperbole.

[JM2K6]

He's won 4 SR titles and three provincial titles before that, and replaced dual WR Player of the Year Bauden Barrett at 10 for the AB's in late 2019 despite BB being the coach's favourite player and possibly his cabana boy. What an achievement from a first five who make so many "big errors" every single match. It's almost as if you don't know what you're talking about?

You can go look at me discussing Mo'unga's performances on the old board if you like.

Winning SR titles doesn't make you a perfect player.

If he made 2-3 "bad errors" a game he wouldn't have played 1st XV Rugby for his school, let alone play for Canterbury, the Crusaders or the AB's. As usual, you're drowning in hyperbole.

Nah, that's bullshit. If you chance your arm often enough - and he does - and it comes off 80% of the time and dramatically increases your team's chances of winning, the 20% where it doesn't is not going to stop you playing 1st XV rugby. You're literally incapable of seeing praise for a player's development - particularly of their decision making - as anything other than criticism of past performances. Mo'unga is a quality young player with a bit of development to go, who's kicked on nicely in the last 12-18 months. Boohoo.

We probably just have different opinions on what a big error is, and the difference is I'm happy to accept that maybe "big error" should just be "noticeable mistake". After all, I was praising Mo'unga's development, so it wasn't intended to be slating him..

[Guy Smiley]

As usual, you're drowning in hyperbole.

Wait... wha

Wow

[Carter's Choice]

Of course, despite all this discussion about Mo'unga vs BB, the reality is that they will both be in future AB squads and likely both be in Foster's match day XXIII more often than not. That leaves me wondering who will be the 3rd in line and how much Rugby are they realistically going to get over the next 4 years?

The next best no.10 in terms of form in 2020 has been Mitch Hunt. He looked good at both 10 and 15 for the Highlanders. However I'm not sure he is being seriously considered by Ian Foster as a 10. The fact that he made the North Island team does suggest however that his strong performances for the Highlanders were at least noticed.

Joshua Ioane and Jackson Garden-Bachop would round off the top 5. Damien McKenzie didn't play at 10 this year - and is shit there anyway - and I won't count Aaron Cruden as he is off to Japan. Joshua Ioane has already been capped for the AB's and I think on balance he probably has the most potential of the players vying to be NZ's third choice 10. He is strongly built and possesses a strong kicking and running game. Most importantly I think he has the temperament and composure needed to be a test level first five.

[FujiKiwi]

Joshua Ioane is second best (after some daylight) to R Mo, I think. But you're right, Mitch Hunt has looked good.

Beauden Barrett doesn't make the top 3 as a 10, and might only just make the top 3 as a 15 in NZ rugby.

My sense is that he would still be an excellent player off the bench, but I don't know if he would stomach that or if Foster would have the balls or clarity of thought to even try it.

It makes all the money spent on Barrett a waste.

My sense is that spending big bucks on a superstar forward has a much better chance of paying off long term than spending top dollar on a superstar back.

[Jb1981]

A good and open coaching recruitment process would probably pay bigger dividends that either.

[Sandstorm]

Another BB sympathy piece on stuff.co.nz. It seems strange that all of a sudden a number of journalists are running pro-BB stories on the same day.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... udy-debate

It’s almost like they know what click-bait is.......

[Amethyst]

Another BB sympathy piece on stuff.co.nz. It seems strange that all of a sudden a number of journalists are running pro-BB stories on the same day.
https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/all ... udy-debate

It’s almost like they know what click-bait is.......

These pro-BB journalists clearly know their rugby.

[Ymx]

Aside from BB’s tee kicking issues he experienced, I do wonder if he can be entirely blamed. I think it’s fair to say our attack after 2017 completely Fozzled out.

[FujiKiwi]

I don't think his form fluctuates that much. He generally is what he is.

It's the conditions of the game around him that determine if he's going to be ordinary or outstanding.

[Certain Navigator]

I don't think his form fluctuates that much. He generally is what he is.

It's the conditions of the game around him that determine if he's going to be ordinary or outstanding.

This.

[Amethyst]

BB has BMT. Let him play 10 and get another goal kicker.

[Jimmy Smallsteps]

BB has BMT. Let him play 10 and get another goal kicker.

Fuck off you boring troll.

[Amethyst]

BB has BMT. Let him play 10 and get another goal kicker.

Fuck off you boring troll.

Fuck you too boring cnut

[Kiwias]

You can go look at me discussing Mo'unga's performances on the old board if you like.

Winning SR titles doesn't make you a perfect player.

If he made 2-3 "bad errors" a game he wouldn't have played 1st XV Rugby for his school, let alone play for Canterbury, the Crusaders or the AB's. As usual, you're drowning in hyperbole.

Nah, that's bullshit. If you chance your arm often enough - and he does - and it comes off 80% of the time and dramatically increases your team's chances of winning, the 20% where it doesn't is not going to stop you playing 1st XV rugby. You're literally incapable of seeing praise for a player's development - particularly of their decision making - as anything other than criticism of past performances. Mo'unga is a quality young player with a bit of development to go, who's kicked on nicely in the last 12-18 months. Boohoo.

We probably just have different opinions on what a big error is, and the difference is I'm happy to accept that maybe "big error" should just be "noticeable mistake". After all, I was praising Mo'unga's development, so it wasn't intended to be slating him..

I’ll tell you what a big error is.

It is the first five playing in his first season in NPC in 2014, replacing DC at half time (DC returning from a major injury so the switch was always planned) and Canterbury leading with not too much time left on the clock.

Oppo attacking hard down the right touch but Canty forced a turnover, only for the young first five getting the ball in the in-goal area. Rather than touching it down and giving away a 5m scrum, he panicked and tried to run then pass the ball, only to lose it. Oppo take the try and the game.

That was Mo’unga but that was six years ago.

[Kiwias]

You can go look at me discussing Mo'unga's performances on the old board if you like.

Winning SR titles doesn't make you a perfect player.

If he made 2-3 "bad errors" a game he wouldn't have played 1st XV Rugby for his school, let alone play for Canterbury, the Crusaders or the AB's. As usual, you're drowning in hyperbole.

Nah, that's bullshit. If you chance your arm often enough - and he does - and it comes off 80% of the time and dramatically increases your team's chances of winning, the 20% where it doesn't is not going to stop you playing 1st XV rugby. You're literally incapable of seeing praise for a player's development - particularly of their decision making - as anything other than criticism of past performances. Mo'unga is a quality young player with a bit of development to go, who's kicked on nicely in the last 12-18 months. Boohoo.

We probably just have different opinions on what a big error is, and the difference is I'm happy to accept that maybe "big error" should just be "noticeable mistake". After all, I was praising Mo'unga's development, so it wasn't intended to be slating him..

I’ll tell you what a big error is.

It is the first five playing in his first season in NPC in 2014, replacing DC at half time (DC returning from a major injury so the switch was always planned) and Canterbury leading with not too much time left on the clock.

Oppo attacking hard down the right touch but Canty forced a turnover, only for the young first five getting the ball in the in-goal area. Rather than touching it down and giving away a 5m scrum, he panicked and tried to run then pass the ball, only to lose it. Oppo take the try and the game.

That was Mo’unga but that was six years ago. I have not seen him make that sort of major error since.

[Kiwias]

.

[JM2K6]

If he made 2-3 "bad errors" a game he wouldn't have played 1st XV Rugby for his school, let alone play for Canterbury, the Crusaders or the AB's. As usual, you're drowning in hyperbole.

Nah, that's bullshit. If you chance your arm often enough - and he does - and it comes off 80% of the time and dramatically increases your team's chances of winning, the 20% where it doesn't is not going to stop you playing 1st XV rugby. You're literally incapable of seeing praise for a player's development - particularly of their decision making - as anything other than criticism of past performances. Mo'unga is a quality young player with a bit of development to go, who's kicked on nicely in the last 12-18 months. Boohoo.

We probably just have different opinions on what a big error is, and the difference is I'm happy to accept that maybe "big error" should just be "noticeable mistake". After all, I was praising Mo'unga's development, so it wasn't intended to be slating him..

I’ll tell you what a big error is.

It is the first five playing in his first season in NPC in 2014, replacing DC at half time (DC returning from a major injury so the switch was always planned) and Canterbury leading with not too much time left on the clock.

Oppo attacking hard down the right touch but Canty forced a turnover, only for the young first five getting the ball in the in-goal area. Rather than touching it down and giving away a 5m scrum, he panicked and tried to run then pass the ball, only to lose it. Oppo take the try and the game.

That was Mo’unga but that was six years ago.

I'd also call things like "making a bad clearing kick that needed to find touch and instead setting up the opposition to score" a big error. Which is what he did against SA in 2018 (one of the fun discussions we had on PR). These are the sorts of things he's essentially cut out from his game

[Amethyst]

The only thing Richie can do better than BB is goal kicking. BB is faster, has more tricks up his sleeve, defends better, will do the extraordinary thing at the right time to swing the game, etc. A far more gifted, dangerous and superior player than the other oke..

[JM2K6]

I know I'm replying to someone on a month-long windup but suggesting Mo'unga doesn't do remarkable things to swing a game is bonkers. He does it pretty regularly these days.