The Official English Rugby Thread

[Raggs]

Seeing as double full back and a single winger is looking more and more like a thing (and given the 50/22 it's not a bad idea), there could easily be room for him and steward. But we have a lot of back 3.

[sockwithaticket]

Seeing as double full back and a single winger is looking more and more like a thing (and given the 50/22 it's not a bad idea), there could easily be room for him and steward. But we have a lot of back 3.

We have a lot of options, but few of them are nailed down/available.

Experienced
May, Watson, Nowell and Daly. Three of those aren't currently fit and available, so it's a bit moot. Nowell might be ready by the Summer tour, but neither he nor Daly have really deserved selection on form this year.

Inexperienced, but actually capped
Furbank, Steward, Malins

Uncapped and worth a go in a white shirt
Murley, Lynagh, Hassell-Collins, Arundell, Freeman

Arundell's pace and attacking ability would go some way to balancing the back three.

[Kawazaki]

Seeing as double full back and a single winger is looking more and more like a thing (and given the 50/22 it's not a bad idea), there could easily be room for him and steward. But we have a lot of back 3.

I don't think Steward is a shoe-in at all, he was average to poor in the 6Ns. And he's slow, that isn't going to change.

[Kawazaki]

Seeing as double full back and a single winger is looking more and more like a thing (and given the 50/22 it's not a bad idea), there could easily be room for him and steward. But we have a lot of back 3.

We have a lot of options, but few of them are nailed down/available.

Experienced
May, Watson, Nowell and Daly. Three of those aren't currently fit and available, so it's a bit moot. Nowell might be ready by the Summer tour, but neither he nor Daly have really deserved selection on form this year.

Inexperienced, but actually capped
Furbank, Steward, Malins

Uncapped and worth a go in a white shirt
Murley, Lynagh, Hassell-Collins, Arundell, Freeman

Arundell's pace and attacking ability would go some way to balancing the back three.

Can't believe you've not included Radwan. I think Radwan, with a better England head coach, could be something very special.

[sockwithaticket]

Seeing as double full back and a single winger is looking more and more like a thing (and given the 50/22 it's not a bad idea), there could easily be room for him and steward. But we have a lot of back 3.

We have a lot of options, but few of them are nailed down/available.

Experienced
May, Watson, Nowell and Daly. Three of those aren't currently fit and available, so it's a bit moot. Nowell might be ready by the Summer tour, but neither he nor Daly have really deserved selection on form this year.

Inexperienced, but actually capped
Furbank, Steward, Malins

Uncapped and worth a go in a white shirt
Murley, Lynagh, Hassell-Collins, Arundell, Freeman

Arundell's pace and attacking ability would go some way to balancing the back three.

Can't believe you've not included Radwan. I think Radwan, with a better England head coach, could be something very special.

That is an oversight, but he's also not getting picked any time soon, so it's a bit moot.

[notfatcat]

Arundell played both full back and wing in school/age group level (plus centre occasionally) and there's no reason at all why he should be thought of as purely a full back for England, so agree with Raggs.

[Kawazaki]

We have a lot of options, but few of them are nailed down/available.

Experienced
May, Watson, Nowell and Daly. Three of those aren't currently fit and available, so it's a bit moot. Nowell might be ready by the Summer tour, but neither he nor Daly have really deserved selection on form this year.

Inexperienced, but actually capped
Furbank, Steward, Malins

Uncapped and worth a go in a white shirt
Murley, Lynagh, Hassell-Collins, Arundell, Freeman

Arundell's pace and attacking ability would go some way to balancing the back three.

Can't believe you've not included Radwan. I think Radwan, with a better England head coach, could be something very special.

That is an oversight, but he's also not getting picked any time soon, so it's a bit moot.

Lynagh, Arundell, Freeman etc are in the same moot category tbf.



Eddiot has got some decisions to make with not much time and precious few test matches to play with before the next RWC starts. What will he do?

Well, history suggests he'll waste at least a third of the games giving caps to players who he'll not cap again and then go back to older players with lots of caps who were last in form in about 2018, mainly because he believes that no test side with <900 caps can hope to win a RWC. This makes Ben Youngs so priceless to Jones's logic as he counts for 2.5 players towards his experience aggregate.

[geordie_6]

Seeing as double full back and a single winger is looking more and more like a thing (and given the 50/22 it's not a bad idea), there could easily be room for him and steward. But we have a lot of back 3.

Steward at 15 with Arundell and Radwan on the wings would be great to see. Solidity at the back, lethal pace out wide.

[sockwithaticket]

Can't believe you've not included Radwan. I think Radwan, with a better England head coach, could be something very special.

That is an oversight, but he's also not getting picked any time soon, so it's a bit moot.

Lynagh, Arundell, Freeman etc are in the same moot category tbf.



Eddiot has got some decisions to make with not much time and precious few test matches to play with before the next RWC starts. What will he do?

Well, history suggests he'll waste at least a third of the games giving caps to players who he'll not cap again and then go back to older players with lots of caps who were last in form in about 2018, mainly because he believes that no test side with <900 caps can hope to win a RWC. This makes Ben Youngs so priceless to Jones's logic as he counts for 2.5 players towards his experience aggregate.

I dunno, Radwan's alreayd been capped and apparently discarded. We know how Eddie can be about that. Still waiting for George Martin and Ted Hill to add to their cap tallies... So, oddly, not having been caped yet, but having been around the squad, makes Lynagh or Freeman more of an option

[Oxbow]

Seeing as double full back and a single winger is looking more and more like a thing (and given the 50/22 it's not a bad idea), there could easily be room for him and steward. But we have a lot of back 3.

Steward at 15 with Arundell and Radwan on the wings would be great to see. Solidity at the back, lethal pace out wide.

Replace Steward with Tommy Freeman who hopefully will turn out to be Steward but with pace, and I'm all for it.

[inactionman]

How is Hooper still drawing a salary, that team is a disgrace, and he has a huge amount to do with that.

Was about to post that surely he can't survive this.

He'll survive nuclear Armageddon.

Think Ed Griffiths might swing the axe at end of season, I expect quite a few changes to come - Craig has had the sense to remove himself as chairman at end of season, and Griffiths will pick up the reigns. He's obviously got less attachment to the old guard.

Cipriani - to no great surprise - isn't being renewed, neither in Tian Schoeman, so unless we're planning on Piers Francis as back up for Bailey at 10 we'll need a new FH.

[SaintK]

How is Hooper still drawing a salary, that team is a disgrace, and he has a huge amount to do with that.

Was about to post that surely he can't survive this.

He'll survive nuclear Armageddon.

Think Ed Griffiths might swing the axe at end of season, I expect quite a few changes to come - Craig has had the sense to remove himself as chairman at end of season, and Griffiths will pick up the reigns. He's obviously got less attachment to the old guard.

Cipriani - to no great surprise - isn't being renewed, neither in Tian Schoeman, so unless we're planning on Piers Francis as back up for Bailey at 10 we'll need a new FH.

He needs to. I've never seen such a dispirited performance as bad as that in the Premiership. Perhaps it is the lack of relegation that is causing it?

[Raggs]

This is the Ed Griffith who was brought in as an outside consultant to work out what was wrong with Bath, and determined that it was the fact he wasn't the chairman?

Maybe he'll bring in the axe, or maybe he'll just be as much of a joker as the rest of them.

[Torquemada 1420]

He needs to. I've never seen such a dispirited performance as bad as that in the Premiership. Perhaps it is the lack of relegation that is causing it?

Not that pros should need motivation but performances like that should be punished by the threat of relegation.

[Paddington Bear]

Was about to post that surely he can't survive this.

He'll survive nuclear Armageddon.

Think Ed Griffiths might swing the axe at end of season, I expect quite a few changes to come - Craig has had the sense to remove himself as chairman at end of season, and Griffiths will pick up the reigns. He's obviously got less attachment to the old guard.

Cipriani - to no great surprise - isn't being renewed, neither in Tian Schoeman, so unless we're planning on Piers Francis as back up for Bailey at 10 we'll need a new FH.

He needs to. I've never seen such a dispirited performance as bad as that in the Premiership. Perhaps it is the lack of relegation that is causing it?

Yes. The Prem is a great league but with no jeopardy teams can get away with absolutely pathetic performances like that. At the very least there has to be a play off for this reason, otherwise we'll end up with English versions of the Dragons within a few years.

[Kawazaki]

I think it's a logical fallacy to jump to conclusions regards the risible performance of Bath this season and no relegation.

[inactionman]

There must be some reason - with pretty much the same team (incl. coaching) we had a good run post-covid shutdown.

We've been disastrous this season - and same story, we might start a game reasonably OK but the wheels fall off - well, the whole car falls apart - in the latter stages.

Fitness? Mentality? Some not great luck with injuries but we're not alone there.

General feeling is complacency.

It sounds like Farleigh House is going, although the 'official' line is because it's not really fit for purpose. What with it being a stately home and not a professional sports complex. Wondering if it's also a kick up seat of pants. Get them back onto the paddock at Lambridge.

[Paddington Bear]

I think it's a logical fallacy to jump to conclusions regards the risible performance of Bath this season and no relegation.

It's not just Bath - the league down the lower end has tailed off a bit IMHO.

[sockwithaticket]

In relegation seasons the bottom of the league is populated by 2 or 3 teams playing increasingly shit, conservative rugby as they get more and more scared of making any kind of mistake. Also, targeting of fixtures, which results in second teams being trotted out for games they don't think they can win. I've never found the race to the bottom engaging unless my team have been dragged into it.

With European qualification now the top 8 and the top 4 race still so tight, there's plenty to engage with.

[ASMO]

In relegation seasons the bottom of the league is populated by 2 or 3 teams playing increasingly shit, conservative rugby as they get more and more scared of making any kind of mistake. Also, targeting of fixtures, which results in second teams being trotted out for games they don't think they can win. I've never found the race to the bottom engaging unless my team have been dragged into it.

With European qualification now the top 8 and the top 4 race still so tight, there's plenty to engage with.

I honestly think Bath have just given up, nothing to gain nothing to lose, no motivation, people leaving, new management team coming in, basically gone demob happy.

[inactionman]

In relegation seasons the bottom of the league is populated by 2 or 3 teams playing increasingly shit, conservative rugby as they get more and more scared of making any kind of mistake. Also, targeting of fixtures, which results in second teams being trotted out for games they don't think they can win. I've never found the race to the bottom engaging unless my team have been dragged into it.

With European qualification now the top 8 and the top 4 race still so tight, there's plenty to engage with.

I honestly think Bath have just given up, nothing to gain nothing to lose, no motivation, people leaving, new management team coming in, basically gone demob happy.

I'd definitely agree the issue seems to be with mentality, but going demob happy would explain the latter parts of the season, not the earlier.

[sockwithaticket]

In relegation seasons the bottom of the league is populated by 2 or 3 teams playing increasingly shit, conservative rugby as they get more and more scared of making any kind of mistake. Also, targeting of fixtures, which results in second teams being trotted out for games they don't think they can win. I've never found the race to the bottom engaging unless my team have been dragged into it.

With European qualification now the top 8 and the top 4 race still so tight, there's plenty to engage with.

I honestly think Bath have just given up, nothing to gain nothing to lose, no motivation, people leaving, new management team coming in, basically gone demob happy.

On Bath specifically, I agree, I was more addressing Paddington's general comment about the bottom of the league without relegation. It's not a great watch regardless of the situation because it's the bottom of the league. The jeopardy of the drop just makes it shit in a different way.

The bottom teams are in a weird spot this year, though. I can't recall many other seasons where a regime change for such teams has occurred or been announced mid-way through the season. At least with Diamond coming in Worcester players have the new boss to impress from the off. Bath players don't know which of the current coaches will still be around and Van Graan's not there right now, so who are they playing to impress? You'd hope the fans, but that might be a bit abstract when this deep in the hole.

[Kawazaki]

I honestly think Bath have just given up, nothing to gain nothing to lose, no motivation, people leaving, new management team coming in, basically gone demob happy.

Bath lost their first TEN league games. Lowlights of that run include losing 17-71 at home to Saracens, 13-20 at home to Newcastle, and conceding 40pts away in losses to both Leicester and Northampton. During this same period, they also lost 71-10 to Gloucester in the domestic cup comp.

Blaming no relegation on why Bath are so shit is a false conclusion.

[inactionman]

I honestly think Bath have just given up, nothing to gain nothing to lose, no motivation, people leaving, new management team coming in, basically gone demob happy.

Bath lost their first TEN league games. Lowlights of that run include losing 17-71 at home to Saracens, 13-20 at home to Newcastle, and conceding 40pts away in losses to both Leicester and Northampton. During this same period, they also lost 71-10 to Gloucester in the domestic cup comp.

Blaming no relegation on why Bath are so shit is a false conclusion.

Yep. Damage was done well before Christmas, and if I recall correctly it took Worcester playing at the rec with 14 for the bulk of the game for us to register a win. The 2020/2021 season wasn't great - mid-table mediocrity - but little to indicate this season would be so disastrous.

[Paddington Bear]

Can't agree with a lot of this. Bath have been terrible all season, yes, but that doesn't change that the lack of jeopardy is making this worse. Bath's points difference is -289, Worcester's -379. Both have been terrible this season and at least one of them deserves to not be in the league next season as a result. What is happening at these clubs demands consequences.
Relegation scraps can be nasty games sure, but they are far better for players than what Bath and to an extent Worcester produced this weekend. What did anyone learn from that? Zammit is quick? Revelation.
Ultimately teams that have been thumped again and again all season (we should have put 100 past them at the Rec if we hadn't eased up), and at the business end lose 64-0 to their arch rivals should fuck off for a bit and start looking at flights to Jersey. As things stand Worcester and Bath are essentially middle class versions of the Dragons, it's a waste of everyone's time. Newcastle at least show some heart.

[inactionman]

Can't agree with a lot of this. Bath have been terrible all season, yes, but that doesn't change that the lack of jeopardy is making this worse. Bath's points difference is -289, Worcester's -379. Both have been terrible this season and at least one of them deserves to not be in the league next season as a result. What is happening at these clubs demands consequences.
Relegation scraps can be nasty games sure, but they are far better for players than what Bath and to an extent Worcester produced this weekend. What did anyone learn from that? Zammit is quick? Revelation.
Ultimately teams that have been thumped again and again all season (we should have put 100 past them at the Rec if we hadn't eased up), and at the business end lose 64-0 to their arch rivals should fuck off for a bit and start looking at flights to Jersey. As things stand Worcester and Bath are essentially middle class versions of the Dragons, it's a waste of everyone's time. Newcastle at least show some heart.

Agree that Bath just haven't shown up this season, but this is not due to lack of relegation - we got turned over when there was still a significant amount to play for. Before the start of season I'd have hoped they'd have been shooting at European rugby qualification as a season's minimum goal - and that's not a very lofty goal, so a few heavy defeats early in the season shouldn't have ended any meaningful push. It's just started badly and stayed dreadful all season. A real malaise.

I do concede that both lack of relegation and change in coaching team at end of season has removed any real impetus and urgency to correct the underlying problems, but this runs longer and deeper.

[sockwithaticket]

Can't agree with a lot of this. Bath have been terrible all season, yes, but that doesn't change that the lack of jeopardy is making this worse. Bath's points difference is -289, Worcester's -379. Both have been terrible this season and at least one of them deserves to not be in the league next season as a result. What is happening at these clubs demands consequences.
Relegation scraps can be nasty games sure, but they are far better for players than what Bath and to an extent Worcester produced this weekend. What did anyone learn from that? Zammit is quick? Revelation.
Ultimately teams that have been thumped again and again all season (we should have put 100 past them at the Rec if we hadn't eased up), and at the business end lose 64-0 to their arch rivals should fuck off for a bit and start looking at flights to Jersey. As things stand Worcester and Bath are essentially middle class versions of the Dragons, it's a waste of everyone's time. Newcastle at least show some heart.

Well at the heart of that is what's the point of relegation? You make it sound like it should be a punishment for being crap rather than a mechanism to offer a team of sufficient quality the opportunity to play at the top table.

If our interest is the long term health of pro rugby in England I don't think that's a good reason to have it. Leicester were shit, but righted themselves without having been relegated. Wasps previously did it under Dai. It doesn't need to be there as an incentive to improve, vanishingly few players want to be at the bottom of the league being tonked semi-regularly. Sometimes it just takes a season or two to go through the rebuild and it's a process that's probably stymied by worrying about the drop or by actually dropping and having players with break clauses bail.

As for a waste of everyone's time, it's a waste of time bringing up Championship teams who will also get spanked. Having Worcester or Bath around and occasionally being on the end of a really ugly scoreline (it's not like the 64-0 and 71-10 are their week in week out results) is better than having another London Welsh.

If we bring relegation back I hope it comes with a playoff because the last thing we need is someone worse than the worst in the Prem being added to the competition.

[Kawazaki]

Can't agree with a lot of this. Bath have been terrible all season, yes, but that doesn't change that the lack of jeopardy is making this worse. Bath's points difference is -289, Worcester's -379. Both have been terrible this season and at least one of them deserves to not be in the league next season as a result. What is happening at these clubs demands consequences.
Relegation scraps can be nasty games sure, but they are far better for players than what Bath and to an extent Worcester produced this weekend. What did anyone learn from that? Zammit is quick? Revelation.
Ultimately teams that have been thumped again and again all season (we should have put 100 past them at the Rec if we hadn't eased up), and at the business end lose 64-0 to their arch rivals should fuck off for a bit and start looking at flights to Jersey. As things stand Worcester and Bath are essentially middle class versions of the Dragons, it's a waste of everyone's time. Newcastle at least show some heart.

There are consequences, what self-respecting player wants to join the Dragons?

And you mention Newcastle as an afterthought but surely they disprove the theory?

Bath are terrible and have been terrible since the start of the season. They also have a team stacked with test players including British Lions. With or without relegation, they'd still be where they are now.

[inactionman]

Bill Sweeney being treated for Pulmonary Embolism. Thankfully sounds like all is going to be well.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/61307432

Silly question, are these stress-related?

[JM2K6]

Can't agree with a lot of this. Bath have been terrible all season, yes, but that doesn't change that the lack of jeopardy is making this worse. Bath's points difference is -289, Worcester's -379. Both have been terrible this season and at least one of them deserves to not be in the league next season as a result. What is happening at these clubs demands consequences.
Relegation scraps can be nasty games sure, but they are far better for players than what Bath and to an extent Worcester produced this weekend. What did anyone learn from that? Zammit is quick? Revelation.
Ultimately teams that have been thumped again and again all season (we should have put 100 past them at the Rec if we hadn't eased up), and at the business end lose 64-0 to their arch rivals should fuck off for a bit and start looking at flights to Jersey. As things stand Worcester and Bath are essentially middle class versions of the Dragons, it's a waste of everyone's time. Newcastle at least show some heart.

Given how garbage the relegated teams have been over the years I'm not really seeing the difference. It's a waste of time? Well, Bath have won 4, Worcs 5.

In 12/13, Welsh 5, Worcs 5.
13/14, Worcs 2(!), Falcons 3.
14/15, Welsh 0 (lol), Falcons 5.
15/16 - Irish 4, Falcons 5.
16/17 - Bristol 3, Worcs 5.
17/18 - Irish 3, Worcs 7.
18/19 - Falcons 6, Tigers 7.
19/20 - Tigers 6, Irish 6 (with Saracens relagated, so no fear of relegation)
20/21 - Worcs 4, Glaws 7

Is the points differential worse? Largely, yes. But I'd argue that the Premiership is full of sides trying to play attacking rugby now, so there's a lot more tries being scored. In 2015, when Irish finished bottom with 4 wins, they had a differential of -292, but the most tries scored in the league were 71 (Exeter/Wasps) followed by Saracens (60). This season, six teams have scored more than 80 tries (last season 2 teams did that). It's a massive change, and it means teams are capable of getting thrashed if they're not up to speed.

Sorry, but the relegation "battle" has always been shit.

[Margin__Walker]

I'm not a fan of relegation in the current climate. It was a shit experience with no real benefits. People get misty eyed about Quins and Northampton reinventing themselves after and it being a springboard to better things. Chances are having a bad season would have been the kick up the arse required anyway (as it has been for Leicester this time). What it did do was cost a struggling business a huge amount of money and ensure a lot of people involved with the club lost their jobs.

It was interesting going around to new venues, but ultimately it all felt like a bit of a waste of time on the pitch. For me relegation works in fully pro sport when you have a fully viable second tier like in France or football in this country. That's just not the case in English rugby.

As good as it would feel to see Bath go down....

Will be interesting to see how things play out in the next few seasons though as a 13 team league isn't really a satisfactory solution if we do remain in this ringfencing by stealth status quo

[Kawazaki]

Mark Evans made some good suggestions in the podcast referenced earlier. Having the players salaries linked to a percentage of the net league income rather than to a salary cap was a good idea. Also the idea that in, for example, a 20-team league, there doesn't need to be 38 league games, cap the regular season games then have an extra round in the playoffs.

[inactionman]

I'm not a fan of relegation in the current climate. It was a shit experience with no real benefits. People get misty eyed about Quins and Northampton reinventing themselves after and it being a springboard to better things. Chances are having a bad season would have been the kick up the arse required anyway (as it has been for Leicester this time). What it did do was cost a struggling business a huge amount of money and ensure a lot of people involved with the club lost their jobs.

It was interesting going around to new venues, but ultimately it all felt like a bit of a waste of time on the pitch. For me relegation works in fully pro sport when you have a fully viable second tier like in France or football in this country. That's just not the case in English rugby.

As good as it would feel to see Bath go down....

Will be interesting to see how things play out in the next few seasons though as a 13 team league isn't really a satisfactory solution if we do remain in this ringfencing by stealth status quo

<narrows eyes>

[Paddington Bear]

Can't agree with a lot of this. Bath have been terrible all season, yes, but that doesn't change that the lack of jeopardy is making this worse. Bath's points difference is -289, Worcester's -379. Both have been terrible this season and at least one of them deserves to not be in the league next season as a result. What is happening at these clubs demands consequences.
Relegation scraps can be nasty games sure, but they are far better for players than what Bath and to an extent Worcester produced this weekend. What did anyone learn from that? Zammit is quick? Revelation.
Ultimately teams that have been thumped again and again all season (we should have put 100 past them at the Rec if we hadn't eased up), and at the business end lose 64-0 to their arch rivals should fuck off for a bit and start looking at flights to Jersey. As things stand Worcester and Bath are essentially middle class versions of the Dragons, it's a waste of everyone's time. Newcastle at least show some heart.

Given how garbage the relegated teams have been over the years I'm not really seeing the difference. It's a waste of time? Well, Bath have won 4, Worcs 5.

In 12/13, Welsh 5, Worcs 5.
13/14, Worcs 2(!), Falcons 3.
14/15, Welsh 0 (lol), Falcons 5.
15/16 - Irish 4, Falcons 5.
16/17 - Bristol 3, Worcs 5.
17/18 - Irish 3, Worcs 7.
18/19 - Falcons 6, Tigers 7.
19/20 - Tigers 6, Irish 6 (with Saracens relagated, so no fear of relegation)
20/21 - Worcs 4, Glaws 7

Is the points differential worse? Largely, yes. But I'd argue that the Premiership is full of sides trying to play attacking rugby now, so there's a lot more tries being scored. In 2015, when Irish finished bottom with 4 wins, they had a differential of -292, but the most tries scored in the league were 71 (Exeter/Wasps) followed by Saracens (60). This season, six teams have scored more than 80 tries (last season 2 teams did that). It's a massive change, and it means teams are capable of getting thrashed if they're not up to speed.

Sorry, but the relegation "battle" has always been shit.

This doesn't change that there should be consequences for a team like Bath who have just given up, seemingly. A playoff with the winner of the Champ is the right balance

[Margin__Walker]

I'm not a fan of relegation in the current climate. It was a shit experience with no real benefits. People get misty eyed about Quins and Northampton reinventing themselves after and it being a springboard to better things. Chances are having a bad season would have been the kick up the arse required anyway (as it has been for Leicester this time). What it did do was cost a struggling business a huge amount of money and ensure a lot of people involved with the club lost their jobs.

It was interesting going around to new venues, but ultimately it all felt like a bit of a waste of time on the pitch. For me relegation works in fully pro sport when you have a fully viable second tier like in France or football in this country. That's just not the case in English rugby.

As good as it would feel to see Bath go down....

Will be interesting to see how things play out in the next few seasons though as a 13 team league isn't really a satisfactory solution if we do remain in this ringfencing by stealth status quo

<narrows eyes>

I'm a bad person. TBF, despite everything, Worcester may still manage it.

[sockwithaticket]

I'm not a fan of relegation in the current climate. It was a shit experience with no real benefits. People get misty eyed about Quins and Northampton reinventing themselves after and it being a springboard to better things. Chances are having a bad season would have been the kick up the arse required anyway (as it has been for Leicester this time). What it did do was cost a struggling business a huge amount of money and ensure a lot of people involved with the club lost their jobs.

It was interesting going around to new venues, but ultimately it all felt like a bit of a waste of time on the pitch. For me relegation works in fully pro sport when you have a fully viable second tier like in France or football in this country. That's just not the case in English rugby.

As good as it would feel to see Bath go down....

Will be interesting to see how things play out in the next few seasons though as a 13 team league isn't really a satisfactory solution if we do remain in this ringfencing by stealth status quo

<narrows eyes>

If you let Irish sign a few of your promising youngsters like Reid or Bailey, it might go some way to balancing out the London Irish West days and encourage a bit more empathy from the likes of Margin.

[Margin__Walker]

Just as long as they keep Hatley.

[JM2K6]

Can't agree with a lot of this. Bath have been terrible all season, yes, but that doesn't change that the lack of jeopardy is making this worse. Bath's points difference is -289, Worcester's -379. Both have been terrible this season and at least one of them deserves to not be in the league next season as a result. What is happening at these clubs demands consequences.
Relegation scraps can be nasty games sure, but they are far better for players than what Bath and to an extent Worcester produced this weekend. What did anyone learn from that? Zammit is quick? Revelation.
Ultimately teams that have been thumped again and again all season (we should have put 100 past them at the Rec if we hadn't eased up), and at the business end lose 64-0 to their arch rivals should fuck off for a bit and start looking at flights to Jersey. As things stand Worcester and Bath are essentially middle class versions of the Dragons, it's a waste of everyone's time. Newcastle at least show some heart.

Given how garbage the relegated teams have been over the years I'm not really seeing the difference. It's a waste of time? Well, Bath have won 4, Worcs 5.

In 12/13, Welsh 5, Worcs 5.
13/14, Worcs 2(!), Falcons 3.
14/15, Welsh 0 (lol), Falcons 5.
15/16 - Irish 4, Falcons 5.
16/17 - Bristol 3, Worcs 5.
17/18 - Irish 3, Worcs 7.
18/19 - Falcons 6, Tigers 7.
19/20 - Tigers 6, Irish 6 (with Saracens relagated, so no fear of relegation)
20/21 - Worcs 4, Glaws 7

Is the points differential worse? Largely, yes. But I'd argue that the Premiership is full of sides trying to play attacking rugby now, so there's a lot more tries being scored. In 2015, when Irish finished bottom with 4 wins, they had a differential of -292, but the most tries scored in the league were 71 (Exeter/Wasps) followed by Saracens (60). This season, six teams have scored more than 80 tries (last season 2 teams did that). It's a massive change, and it means teams are capable of getting thrashed if they're not up to speed.

Sorry, but the relegation "battle" has always been shit.

This doesn't change that there should be consequences for a team like Bath who have just given up, seemingly. A playoff with the winner of the Champ is the right balance

There were no league consequences for the second worst team in the league previously, and they were just as bad as Bath are now. But we're getting away from the fact that relegation doesn't make teams any better or make them more competitive. Largely they're in the relegation spot because they're rubbish. I'd rather see Bath lose like this while blooding a clearly talented generation of players this season than see them throw out a team of Saffer journeymen week on week in the vain hope of losing by fewer points.

There will be consequences for being this bad. Players and coaches will lose jobs. Signings will be a lot harder. Fans will stay away. It's not consequence-free.

[SaintK]

So Walder taking over from Richards at Falcons as DoR
Nick Easter off to join Diamond at Warriors as defence and forwards coach.
The rest of Falcons coaching staff rermain as is

[Kawazaki]

So Walder taking over from Richards at Falcons as DoR
Nick Easter off to join Diamond at Warriors as defence and forwards coach.
The rest of Falcons coaching staff rermain as is

Richards replacing Eddiot?