Elite and Challenger Leagues

[Jock42]

I quite like the sound of this especially the Ryder Cup style system although the loss of a fallow week could fuck Scotland a bit.

[Biffer]

Straight down the SH line of playing each other too much and devaluing the spectacle.

[Hugo]

Guaranteed that billionaire investors/private equity are behind this proposal. Neoliberalism ruins everything.

[ia801310]

I hope this does not happen

[sockwithaticket]

Isn't this more or less exactly the same proposal as previously?

It can fuck off. Not all internationals need to be in some sort of league or tournament structure to matter.

This looks like it'll decrease tier 1 v 2 fixtures.

[OomStruisbaai]

I saw this one coming long ago. Excellent idea.

[FullbackAce]

Fuck, not this sh1t again...

The emerging nations are already on board

The emerging nations league — featuring Samoa, Tonga, the United States, Canada, Uruguay, Chile, Namibia, Georgia, Romania, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands — is being referred to as the Challenger division and would also involve games on neutral territory to limit travel costs.

Traditional tours would return in Lions years, with the leading teams in the Challenger division rewarded with top fixtures.

WTF! It is literally shafting T2. You get ONE playoff game against a team that just played every world-class nation in the world and how tf are you supposed to beat them while you're coming off of playing just T2?! - or is that the point, to begin with? and we'd never get to play top teams. The sport just turned a corner in SA and Continental Europe now they want to create a fucking ceiling?! and these fucking unions are for it?!

[Niegs]

If it goes through I will only watch matches where both teams send their reserves.

[clydecloggie]

Fuck, not this sh1t again...

The emerging nations are already on board

The emerging nations league — featuring Samoa, Tonga, the United States, Canada, Uruguay, Chile, Namibia, Georgia, Romania, Spain, Portugal and the Netherlands — is being referred to as the Challenger division and would also involve games on neutral territory to limit travel costs.

Traditional tours would return in Lions years, with the leading teams in the Challenger division rewarded with top fixtures.

WTF! It is literally shafting T2. You get ONE playoff game against a team that just played every world-class nation in the world and how tf are you supposed to beat them while you're coming off of playing just T2?! - or is that the point, to begin with? and we'd never get to play top teams. The sport just turned a corner in SA and Continental Europe now they want to create a fucking ceiling?! and these fucking unions are for it?!

That would be a massacre for the Dutch against all of these teams, and the Union is completely skint as well - I can only see this go really badly for Dutch rugby.

[ia801310]

It is a big risk to take for Countries like Wales, Scotland, Argentina and Italy.

All it will take is one bad tournament followed by one bad game and you would lose all your November and July tests. The financial impacts would be devastating.

Even Australia, England, France and South Africa have shown that they are capable of having a bad couple of years.

Will believe it when I see it. If there is promotion and relegation then I think it there will ring fencing for the RC and 6N teams

[KingBlairhorn]

It is a big risk to take for Countries like Wales, Scotland, Argentina and Italy.

All it will take is one bad tournament followed by one bad game and you would lose all your November and July tests. The financial impacts would be devastating.

Even Australia, England, France and South Africa have shown that they are capable of having a bad couple of years.

Will believe it when I see it. If there is promotion and relegation then I think it there will ring fencing for the RC and 6N teams

That should be resolvable with some kind of parachute payment for relegated teams to see them through the (presumably single) year in the Challenger division. Whether there is the money to achieve that is questionable though.

[JM2K6]

Oh good, more matches. That's what the sport needs.

[Mahoney]

I don't know how unusual I am... I find changing competitions / competition formats / seasons increasingly puts me off a sport. It changes me from being someone who knows how the sport works to someone who is ignorant of it, and increasingly I find I can't be arsed to make the effort to stop being ignorant again, and so I just gently fade into being an increasingly detached casual fan.

I suspect law changes have a similar effect - regardless of how good or bad they change is, there's a cost in just making a change.

[JM2K6]

I don't know how unusual I am... I find changing competitions / competition formats / seasons increasingly puts me off a sport. It changes me from being someone who knows how the sport works to someone who is ignorant of it, and increasingly I find I can't be arsed to make the effort to stop being ignorant again, and so I just gently fade into being an increasingly detached casual fan.

I suspect law changes have a similar effect - regardless of how good or bad they change is, there's a cost in just making a change.

It does betray a lot of insecurity in the sport itself for sure. All sports have some level of change - football with the Nations League [which I like] - but rugby can't stop dicking about with things constantly.

[Marylandolorian]

Oh good, more matches. That's what the sport needs.

But ….Players welfare is WR priority!

[JM2K6]

Oh good, more matches. That's what the sport needs.

But ….Players welfare is WR priority!

Haha

This sport is fuuuuuuuuucked

[Tichtheid]

Oh good, more matches. That's what the sport needs.

But ….Players welfare is WR priority!

Haha

This sport is fuuuuuuuuucked

I still watch boxing because I used to love it and I boxed as a teenager, but I'm less and less comfortable with it these days and I don't watch nearly as much as I used to.

Watching rugby become a sport where they talk about winning collisions and dominant tackles and winning the gain line is making me feel a bit queasy. The concussion issue isn't going away any time soon, having 120kg+ players launching themselves into tackles even at upper chest level is incredibly dangerous. Players are simply much bigger, faster and fitter than they were when I played, there is simply no comparison.

I don't know how to go about it, but I'd rather we had a sport where we see far more of the kind of moves Finn Russell and Teddy Thomas served up at the weekend, players running like Arundell did, or the wee Italian winger at the end of the game in Cardiff.
I'm all for skinning the cat in different ways and if a pack has a great scrum and maul and they use it to win, then that is good too, but having twenty stone monsters bashing each other towards dementia is not really a sport and there has to be a way to enable a good pack to win without it being a case of players being fucked with headaches and blurred vision in their mid twenties.

[JM2K6]

But ….Players welfare is WR priority!

Haha

This sport is fuuuuuuuuucked

I still watch boxing because I used to love it and I boxed as a teenager, but I'm less and less comfortable with it these days and I don't watch nearly as much as I used to.

Watching rugby become a sport where they talk about winning collisions and dominant tackles and winning the gain line is making me feel a bit queasy. The concussion issue isn't going away any time soon, having 120kg+ players launching themselves into tackles even at upper chest level is incredibly dangerous. Players are simply much bigger, faster and fitter than they were when I played, there is simply no comparison.

I don't know how to go about it, but I'd rather we had a sport where we see far more of the kind of moves Finn Russell and Teddy Thomas served up at the weekend, players running like Arundell did, or the wee Italian winger at the end of the game in Cardiff.
I'm all for skinning the cat in different ways and if a pack has a great scrum and maul and they use it to win, then that is good too, but having twenty stone monsters bashing each other towards dementia is not really a sport and there has to be a way to enable a good pack to win without it being a case of players being fucked with headaches and blurred vision in their mid twenties.

Yup. We'll end up with a different game but it's going to have to happen.

[shaggy]

Isn’t this just all about taking control of all competitions and generating cash centrally to enable revenue sharing at some point in the future?

[Hugo]

Isn’t this just all about taking control of all competitions and generating cash centrally to enable revenue sharing at some point in the future?

More or less. You create competitions so that instead of loosely scheduled test matches organised bilaterally you have a centralised system.

You can then package TV rights and try and implement a evenue sharing agreement for gate money. Its basically an attempt to turn international rugby into something akin to the NFL.

[OomStruisbaai]

Fuck you lot are like a bunch of girls. The July/Nov internationals will only be played in a competition format. No really big changes.

[FullbackAce]

Fuck you lot are like a bunch of girls. The July/Nov internationals will only be played in a competition format. No really big changes.

No tests between T1 and T2 - Georgia gets cut even though it's top 12 in rankings and promotion playoff will only happen if "T1 teams are sure the D2 is profitable enough" which it definitely won't be until there's promotion.

So yeah they can fuck off.

[Biffer]

Fuck you lot are like a bunch of girls. The July/Nov internationals will only be played in a competition format. No really big changes.

Look everyone, it’s the Southern Hemisphere come to shit all over world rugby now that they’ve fucked up all their domestic tournaments!

[robmatic]

Fuck you lot are like a bunch of girls. The July/Nov internationals will only be played in a competition format. No really big changes.

No tests between T1 and T2 - Georgia gets cut even though it's top 12 in rankings and promotion playoff will only happen if "T1 teams are sure the D2 is profitable enough" which it definitely won't be until there's promotion.

So yeah they can fuck off.

Tier 1 nations aren't great at playing Tier 2 nations at the moment and this will make it even worse.

[sockwithaticket]

Fuck you lot are like a bunch of girls. The July/Nov internationals will only be played in a competition format. No really big changes.

It's going to reduce the number of tests between Tier 1 and Tier 2 just after we'd started to finally increase them. Terrible decision.

[OomStruisbaai]

The teams from the NH touring the SH was tier 2 teams anyway. Year after year.

[ia801310]

https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/49d3 ... d82560a327



What does the competition look like?

The international game would be split into two tiers of 12 teams and the biennial competition would culminate in a world grand final and two promotion/relegation play-offs — one for each hemisphere. It would be played in even years, to avoid the World Cup and British & Irish Lions tours.



The "Challenger" division would begin first, in 2024, and contain unions from Rugby Europe, Africa, Asia/Pacific and the Americas. Georgia, Spain, Romania, Portugal, the Netherlands, Samoa, Tonga, Namibia, the United States, Canada, Uruguay and Chile would be included, based on current rankings. Russia are suspended from all rugby at present.



With major unions anxious for assurances that the second tier is a viable competition, the "Elite" division would start in 2026. The Six Nations unions — England, France, Ireland, Wales, Scotland and Italy — would combine with the Rugby Championship countries — New Zealand, South Africa, Australia and Argentina — plus Japan and Fiji.





Does this mean relegation from the Six Nations?

No. The Six Nations and Rugby Championship would be ring-fenced, played separately from these leagues, and protected from any changes. There would be no relegation from either.



Instead, points would be accrued across the existing July and November windows, with a final and the relegation play-offs taking place in Europe — home advantage for the bottom-placed "Elite" team. The idea is to protect rugby's traditional tournaments but add context to the cross-hemisphere games — and increase the commercial value of the fixtures.



In Lions tour years there would be cross-division matches, giving the likes of Uruguay a chance to face a top nation such as Australia in a non-World Cup setting





How does it all work?

Each Six Nations team would play three southern hemisphere opponents in July and then host the other three at home in November.



To reduce the travel burden on players, the initial plan is for the southern sides to be grouped into two time-zone-friendly pods, with the lowest-ranked team from the southern hemisphere giving up home advantage.



In year one, Australia, New Zealand and Japan would play host to three Six Nations teams — say England, Ireland and Wales. Meanwhile, France, Scotland and Italy would travel to South Africa and Argentina. Fiji, as the lowest-ranked team, would choose to host their games in either South Africa or Argentina. If promotion and relegation changes the "Elite" 12, those time-zone groupings could be reorganised.



Consideration would be built in for teams who have to play Japan and New Zealand in consecutive weeks — with more time given to them to travel between the two. Fiji would have to sacrifice home advantage in year one. That sacrifice would always fall to the lowest-ranked side — unless they had made it in the previous tournament.



Therefore, within this model there is a commitment for top-tier Tests in Fiji — a scarcity now. In November, the fixture list would switch. So in this example, England would host South Africa, Argentina and Fiji. By the third week of November, the league table is set.





How is the winner decided?

There are three main ideas. The easiest, but least attractive, is to award the trophy to the team that finishes top. This would avoid the political battle — and compensation — of securing player releases for an additional week. Clubs currently only have to make players available for three autumn Tests.



The most favoured option is to play a grand final between the top two teams and two promotion/relegation play-offs between the winners of the "Challenger" division and the lowest-ranked "Elite" sides, one for each hemisphere. So Italy could face Georgia and Fiji face Samoa.



The process of negotiating an additional week of player release, even just for the four teams involved, will involve talks about the Six Nations dropping one of its two fallow weeks.



The grand final would initially be hosted in the northern hemisphere — but in future could be taken to places like Chicago, or Hong Kong; a move SANZAAR would endorse. A third option — facing some opposition — is for everyone to feature in the fourth week of November.



The six northern teams would each play their closest-ranked southern opponent at home. A full set of north-versus-south rivalries could be a marketing dream, would give meaning to a fifth-placing game, and provide extra home fixtures and therefore bumper pay-days for the Six Nations countries. Others feel it is contrived and the SANZAAR unions are not keen on playing dead rubbers.





How does relegation work?

The Six Nations and SANZAAR countries are deeply worried about this. It is the reason they want the "Challenger" division to start in 2024 so they can see what it looks like before signing up to relegation. They are concerned it would cause major financial issues if a country were to drop down for a year and lose its top fixtures, biggest crowds and therefore millions of pounds.



But others are determined that the whole structure needs jeopardy for it to work and provide an avenue for emerging nations to reach the top table.



Relegation would work like this. Let's say Wales finish bottom of the "Elite" league after poor results in July and November 2026. They then play the top-ranked northern hemisphere "Challenger" side, say Georgia, in a promotion/relegation play-off at the Principality Stadium. Lose and they are relegated from the "Elite" division.



In 2027, they would still play in the Six Nations, organise a normal pre-World Cup schedule and compete at the World Cup in Australia that autumn.



Georgia would take a slot in the proposed Challenger league but a system of promotion and relegation is yet to be agreed



In 2028, their relegation would take effect. They would remain in the Six Nations but in July would travel to play, for example, Uruguay, Chile and the US. In November they would host Tonga, Samoa and Canada.



If they won the "Challenger" division, they would play the promotion play-off game. Win that and they would be back in the "Elite" group in 2030.



What happens in Lions years?

The focus would be cross-division matches: "Elite" teams playing "Challenger" teams, as well as maintaining some marquee matches — such as France playing a series against one of New Zealand, Australia or South Africa. "Challenger" top seeds would be rewarded with games against "Elite" teams in July and November, so Georgia could play New Zealand, South Africa, Australia, Argentina, Japan and Fiji in a Lions year. The plan would also see England playing Tests in countries such as Uruguay, Chile, the US, Canada, Samoa and Tonga.





What's the timeline?

There are discussions in Dublin this week with a view to an executive committee vote in November that would commit the game to its biggest structural change since 1995. The commercial viability of this model is the key stumbling block and a pivotal discussion point this week.



The player unions are on board with this new model, having been included in discussions this time. The clubs and players were not part of the talks when a previous incarnation of this plan failed in 2019. If it fails again, sources have said it will be down to the self-interest of the top unions and them not being prepared to reach a commercial agreement which is for the greater good.



World Rugby, which is facilitating all these talks, wants a consensus on this plan by the end of the week.

[ia801310]

If I was a Tier 2 nation I would not be banking on promotion and relegation ever coming in.


How does relegation work?

The Six Nations and SANZAAR countries are deeply worried about this. It is the reason they want the "Challenger" division to start in 2024 so they can see what it looks like before signing up to relegation. They are concerned it would cause major financial issues if a country were to drop down for a year and lose its top fixtures, biggest crowds and therefore millions of pounds.


But others are determined that the whole structure needs jeopardy for it to work and provide an avenue for emerging nations to reach the top table.


Relegation would work like this. Let's say Wales finish bottom of the "Elite" league after poor results in July and November 2026. They then play the top-ranked northern hemisphere "Challenger" side, say Georgia, in a promotion/relegation play-off at the Principality Stadium. Lose and they are relegated from the "Elite" division.


In 2027, they would still play in the Six Nations, organise a normal pre-World Cup schedule and compete at the World Cup in Australia that autumn.


Georgia would take a slot in the proposed Challenger league but a system of promotion and relegation is yet to be agreed

[OomStruisbaai]

That will be a massive plus for SH teams who received piss poor teams in the past.

Each Six Nations team would play three southern hemisphere opponents in July

[Biffer]

That will be a massive plus for SH teams who received piss poor teams in the past.

Each Six Nations team would play three southern hemisphere opponents in July

In 2019 you lost to Wales ffs. They’re shit.

[OomStruisbaai]

That will be a massive plus for SH teams who received piss poor teams in the past.

Each Six Nations team would play three southern hemisphere opponents in July

In 2019 you lost to Wales ffs. They’re shit.

Did you smoke something?

2019 was WC year (Wales were your champ and grand slam winner) we beat them in the WC semi final.

I am talking about NH teams playing South in June/July.

[OomStruisbaai]

Let's see which Wales team arrive over a month. Irish team in NZ. Let's check the scores.

This happen every year. At least in this new format this tests mean something.

[Hugo]

Fuck you lot are like a bunch of girls. The July/Nov internationals will only be played in a competition format. No really big changes.

Doesn't it diminish the RWC now though? The whole point of a quadrennial event is that you have to wait four years for it so there is lots of anticipation. Not quite as much to look forward to if the teams are playing each other year in year out in a competition format.

[OomStruisbaai]

Fuck you lot are like a bunch of girls. The July/Nov internationals will only be played in a competition format. No really big changes.

Doesn't it diminish the RWC now though? The whole point of a quadrennial event is that you have to wait four years for it so there is lots of anticipation. Not quite as much to look forward to if the teams are playing each other year in year out in a competition format.

I always have a problem since the start of the WC tournament. It's only a tournament, not suppose to the be all of rugby. The rugby cycle of players and coaches are build nowadays around it.

This will at least stop that kind of thinking. We play each other anyway, now it will be on a more organized manner.

We get Wales C now for 3 tests. Vokken boring.

[clydecloggie]

It's just the same terrible closed-shop mentality dressed as something new.

One small example:
"Fiji would give up home advantage" - so still no-one has to go to Fiji, like it's always been. We'll take your sons but we'll not give anything back.

And the July Tests are mainly used by NH T1 teams to rest their best players and have a look at some new faces. That will be made a lot more difficult now, if there is something riding on those games. No more Scotland tours to Georgia, Canada and USA most likely, and they were the only T1 team playing T2 teams away with some regularity.

[Biffer]

That will be a massive plus for SH teams who received piss poor teams in the past.

In 2019 you lost to Wales ffs. They’re shit.

Did you smoke something?

2019 was WC year (Wales were your champ and grand slam winner) we beat them in the WC semi final.

I am talking about NH teams playing South in June/July.

Typo - 2018, the last time we actually had mid year tests really. You had four mid year tests and lost two of them, one each to Wales and England.

But this is just typical closed shop mentality from South Africa. When did they last play an actual Tier2 nation outside a World Cup?

They want to turn Union into the same situation as league, because they have the idea they would be at the top table, but a top table with them has very little money - as the SH regularly whines about.

[OomStruisbaai]

In 2019 you lost to Wales ffs. They’re shit.

Did you smoke something?

2019 was WC year (Wales were your champ and grand slam winner) we beat them in the WC semi final.

I am talking about NH teams playing South in June/July.

Typo - 2018, the last time we actually had mid year tests really. You had four mid year tests and lost two of them, one each to Wales and England.

But this is just typical closed shop mentality from South Africa. When did they last play an actual Tier2 nation outside a World Cup?

They want to turn Union into the same situation as league, because they have the idea they would be at the top table, but a top table with them has very little money - as the SH regularly whines about.

Typo you say. I think you are just vokken stupid and move the goal posts. Move it back to AC years when we're were shite.. We were still good enough to beat France in 3 mid year (JUNE) tests. I am talking about MID YEAR (JUNE/JULY) when you send tier 2 teams down south.

[OomStruisbaai]

and by the way, talking about tier 2. We let the likes of Georgia, Kenia and Zimbabwe playing in our CC. We did the same with Argentina and played a massive role in helping them to a tier 1 nation.

Plus we manufacture quality players for a lot of tier 1 nations. Scotland can't scrum without Saffer fatties.

[OomStruisbaai]

and WTF is league? We don't have that shite in South Africa. Our lot love scrums and line outs

[OomStruisbaai]

It's just the same terrible closed-shop mentality dressed as something new.

One small example:
"Fiji would give up home advantage" - so still no-one has to go to Fiji, like it's always been. We'll take your sons but we'll not give anything back.

And the July Tests are mainly used by NH T1 teams to rest their best players and have a look at some new faces. That will be made a lot more difficult now, if there is something riding on those games. No more Scotland tours to Georgia, Canada and USA most likely, and they were the only T1 team playing T2 teams away with some regularity.

Scotland send their Tier 2 teams to Georgia, Canada and USA like England, like Wales, like Ireland.

The SH send their best teams up north in November/December