Heineken Champions/Challenge Cup 2022 Semi-Finals Weekend

[Torquemada 1420]

Finally get there. For how long is Kolbey out?

Seems unlikely he'll figure again this season. They have Villiere, Wainiqolo, Cordin and Luc (has been playing FB) too and all are rapid so it's a big name injury that's not really hurt them except in the intl window.

[Torquemada 1420]

No sign of La Soule or Frog to comment on Leinster's ruck speed? Commentary calling it "ridiculous" with average being under a second. Where are Jelonch, Cros and Elstadt in slowing this down? Bearing in mind that Baille, Marchand and Dupont are among the best, non back rowers at turnovers in world rugby.

Been busy celebrating my youngest 18th birthday, starting with a brunch that prevented me from seeing more than 15min in passing of the game.

From what I saw it was one way traffic, with the Toulouse players completely spent.

When you win all the collisions in rugby, it becomes easy. And Leinster execution was excellent quality as well.

Wise choice.

At ruck time, the ability of the players to get in support and clear the ruck or take a pop pass made defending almost futile. They were consistently delivering sub two second ruck retention, outrageous considering they were up against five starting French Grand Slammers.

Compare this to the sluggish and isolated running of the Toulouse carriers, who time and time again ran into contact and then struggled to present the ball due to the slowness of their own support. You can rightly conclude that it was the speed of ruck that allowed Leinster so much freedom with which to run.

[Torquemada 1420]

Ntamack has had a shocker, everything he has touched has turned to shit

He's a luxury you can't afford at this level of the game

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

[JM2K6]

Ntamack has had a shocker, everything he has touched has turned to shit

He's a luxury you can't afford at this level of the game

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

I'll be honest, I watched that game and at no point did I think he was the problem, the absolute dogshit midfield and the lack of real threat on the wings were a much bigger problem. Not much he can do with such a paucity of talent outside him in that game.

Toulouse seem a really lopsided team, quality front row, best player in the world at 9, good 10, good 15, and extremely variable everywhere else.

[La soule]

He's a luxury you can't afford at this level of the game

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

I'll be honest, I watched that game and at no point did I think he was the problem, the absolute dogshit midfield and the lack of real threat on the wings were a much bigger problem. Not much he can do with such a paucity of talent outside him in that game.

Toulouse seem a really lopsided team, quality front row, best player in the world at 9, good 10, good 15, and extremely variable everywhere else.

Ntamack was part of a team that under performed yesterday, spent forwards and as you mentioned, even a worth midfield. Leinster is a very, very well organised team though and they nullified ST. ST needs to become street wise in the rucks and adapt better to the ref and his interpretations. They lost the physical battle across the pitch. Leinster played the entire game with short passes behind the first receiver to attract the defence and it was fairly pathetic that ST did not adapt to that. Ergo, Leinster are rightful winners. They will face a tougher opposition in the final in the midfield regardless of which team comes through in the other semi final.

Torque's pavlovian and systemic dislike of Toulouse being well documented across the years, people should pay very little attention to his point of view. Hatred can be irrational.

[TheFrog]

No sign of La Soule or Frog to comment on Leinster's ruck speed? Commentary calling it "ridiculous" with average being under a second. Where are Jelonch, Cros and Elstadt in slowing this down? Bearing in mind that Baille, Marchand and Dupont are among the best, non back rowers at turnovers in world rugby.

Been busy celebrating my youngest 18th birthday, starting with a brunch that prevented me from seeing more than 15min in passing of the game.

From what I saw it was one way traffic, with the Toulouse players completely spent.

When you win all the collisions in rugby, it becomes easy. And Leinster execution was excellent quality as well.

Wise choice.

At ruck time, the ability of the players to get in support and clear the ruck or take a pop pass made defending almost futile. They were consistently delivering sub two second ruck retention, outrageous considering they were up against five starting French Grand Slammers.

Compare this to the sluggish and isolated running of the Toulouse carriers, who time and time again ran into contact and then struggled to present the ball due to the slowness of their own support. You can rightly conclude that it was the speed of ruck that allowed Leinster so much freedom with which to run.

Don't you think Toulouse sluggish pace could have to do with their lack of freshness coming into this game?

Don't give me wrong, Leinster were lethal in their execution but Toulouse clearly lacked energy.

With a fully energized team, it would have been a battle of the proportion of France-Ireland in the 6N except that i think Ireland would have won this time.

[TheFrog]

Ntamack has had a shocker, everything he has touched has turned to shit

He's a luxury you can't afford at this level of the game

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

Comparing Sexton and Ntmack on this game doesn't make sense. Sexton was playing behind a dominating pack, on the front foot while Ntamack was coping with a whole team under pressure.

While it doesn't excuse Ntamack poor management, it was easier for Sexton to shine.

[TheFrog]

He's a luxury you can't afford at this level of the game

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

I'll be honest, I watched that game and at no point did I think he was the problem, the absolute dogshit midfield and the lack of real threat on the wings were a much bigger problem. Not much he can do with such a paucity of talent outside him in that game.

Toulouse seem a really lopsided team, quality front row, best player in the world at 9, good 10, good 15, and extremely variable everywhere else.

I agree with your analysis. I think posted this elsewhere, but this year's Toulouse team is a shadow of last year's.

They need upgrades in the second row, bacrow, center and wings. And what do they do? They buy 2 fullbacks.... granted they also signed Barassi who is a good center and Retiere who is a decent winger. But that is not going to help them compensate for their current shortcomings.

[TheFrog]

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

I'll be honest, I watched that game and at no point did I think he was the problem, the absolute dogshit midfield and the lack of real threat on the wings were a much bigger problem. Not much he can do with such a paucity of talent outside him in that game.

Toulouse seem a really lopsided team, quality front row, best player in the world at 9, good 10, good 15, and extremely variable everywhere else.

Ntamack was part of a team that under performed yesterday, spent forwards and as you mentioned, even a worth midfield. Leinster is a very, very well organised team though and they nullified ST. ST needs to become street wise in the rucks and adapt better to the ref and his interpretations. They lost the physical battle across the pitch. Leinster played the entire game with short passes behind the first receiver to attract the defence and it was fairly pathetic that ST did not adapt to that. Ergo, Leinster are rightful winners. They will face a tougher opposition in the final in the midfield regardless of which team comes through in the other semi final.

Torque's pavlovian and systemic dislike of Toulouse being well documented across the years, people should pay very little attention to his point of view. Hatred can be irrational.

Today's game will be intriguing between one club that deliberately opted for a smaller pack in the name of playing a fast game and a team with a monster pack. I doubt the lighter pack could beat Leinster though and therefore I'll be backing La Rochelle.

[La soule]

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

I'll be honest, I watched that game and at no point did I think he was the problem, the absolute dogshit midfield and the lack of real threat on the wings were a much bigger problem. Not much he can do with such a paucity of talent outside him in that game.

Toulouse seem a really lopsided team, quality front row, best player in the world at 9, good 10, good 15, and extremely variable everywhere else.

I agree with your analysis. I think posted this elsewhere, but this year's Toulouse team is a shadow of last year's.

They need upgrades in the second row, bacrow, center and wings. And what do they do? They buy 2 fullbacks.... granted they also signed Barassi who is a good center and Retiere who is a decent winger. But that is not going to help them compensate for their current shortcomings.

On the recruitment front, Barassi is a good additional as is Retière as you mentioned. I reckon Capuozzo will end up on the wing more than he would like I guess. Ramos will get more involved at FH and Ntamack in the centre. Roumat is coming in in the the backrow. Flamant + Meafu can do the job in the second row.
Bottom line is they are not going to win all competition every year.

[La soule]

I'll be honest, I watched that game and at no point did I think he was the problem, the absolute dogshit midfield and the lack of real threat on the wings were a much bigger problem. Not much he can do with such a paucity of talent outside him in that game.

Toulouse seem a really lopsided team, quality front row, best player in the world at 9, good 10, good 15, and extremely variable everywhere else.

Ntamack was part of a team that under performed yesterday, spent forwards and as you mentioned, even a worth midfield. Leinster is a very, very well organised team though and they nullified ST. ST needs to become street wise in the rucks and adapt better to the ref and his interpretations. They lost the physical battle across the pitch. Leinster played the entire game with short passes behind the first receiver to attract the defence and it was fairly pathetic that ST did not adapt to that. Ergo, Leinster are rightful winners. They will face a tougher opposition in the final in the midfield regardless of which team comes through in the other semi final.

Torque's pavlovian and systemic dislike of Toulouse being well documented across the years, people should pay very little attention to his point of view. Hatred can be irrational.

Today's game will be intriguing between one club that deliberately opted for a smaller pack in the name of playing a fast game and a team with a monster pack. I doubt the lighter pack could beat Leinster though and therefore I'll be backing La Rochelle.

Pretty sure LAR will edge it too. Final will be a good day out

[TheFrog]

On the recruitment front, Barassi is a good additional as is Retière as you mentioned. I reckon Capuozzo will end up on the wing more than he would like I guess. Ramos will get more involved at FH and Ntamack in the centre. Roumat is coming in in the the backrow. Flamant + Meafu can do the job in the second row.
Bottom line is they are not going to win all competition every year.

I am not impressed by what I have seen from Meafu so far. And I have the feeling the Arnold brothers aren't at their best any longer.

I feel sorry for Ramos. He is an excellent player and will end up being second choice either at 10 or at 15. Either that or Jaminet will be buried. Because Ramos is much safer a fullback.

[Kawazaki]

He's a luxury you can't afford at this level of the game

Whilst too many in France have heads up arses in regards Ntamack, finally, the rest of the world is waking up to his desperately deep limitations.

Romain Ntamack might be able to tear defences apart from time to time but ask him to manage a close game of rugby in the manner of Sexton and you’ll be disappointed.

There’s a reason why he’s never quite been a fixture in the French 10 jersey and today we saw why. When faced with a defence of the pace and intellect of Leinster, his armoury is somewhat bare and he resorts to standing too deep, and offloading ill-judged passes for his team-mates to take the contact that he refuses to take himself. In terms of game management and intellect, Sexton was playing rugby at a different level today.

Although I suspect Jake has just been c'n'p ing my posts from the match threads.

I'll be honest, I watched that game and at no point did I think he was the problem, the absolute dogshit midfield and the lack of real threat on the wings were a much bigger problem. Not much he can do with such a paucity of talent outside him in that game.

Toulouse seem a really lopsided team, quality front row, best player in the world at 9, good 10, good 15, and extremely variable everywhere else.

Nah, Ntamack was poop. The fullback was class. Dupont looks knackered.

[Uncle fester]

Been busy celebrating my youngest 18th birthday, starting with a brunch that prevented me from seeing more than 15min in passing of the game.

From what I saw it was one way traffic, with the Toulouse players completely spent.

When you win all the collisions in rugby, it becomes easy. And Leinster execution was excellent quality as well.

Wise choice.

At ruck time, the ability of the players to get in support and clear the ruck or take a pop pass made defending almost futile. They were consistently delivering sub two second ruck retention, outrageous considering they were up against five starting French Grand Slammers.

Compare this to the sluggish and isolated running of the Toulouse carriers, who time and time again ran into contact and then struggled to present the ball due to the slowness of their own support. You can rightly conclude that it was the speed of ruck that allowed Leinster so much freedom with which to run.

Don't you think Toulouse sluggish pace could have to do with their lack of freshness coming into this game?

Don't give me wrong, Leinster were lethal in their execution but Toulouse clearly lacked energy.

With a fully energized team, it would have been a battle of the proportion of France-Ireland in the 6N except that i think Ireland would have won this time.

They looked sluggish the previous against Munster (in normal time, let alone extra time) but were able to overpower them.

Didn't work against a better team.

[sockwithaticket]

On the recruitment front, Barassi is a good additional as is Retière as you mentioned. I reckon Capuozzo will end up on the wing more than he would like I guess. Ramos will get more involved at FH and Ntamack in the centre. Roumat is coming in in the the backrow. Flamant + Meafu can do the job in the second row.
Bottom line is they are not going to win all competition every year.

I am not impressed by what I have seen from Meafu so far. And I have the feeling the Arnold brothers aren't at their best any longer.

I feel sorry for Ramos. He is an excellent player and will end up being second choice either at 10 or at 15. Either that or Jaminet will be buried. Because Ramos is much safer a fullback.

The fat lad that got sin binned? Doesn't look very well conditioned even for a tight five forward. Will Skelton became amazing once Saracens got him in shape, maybe Meafu could benefit from a kick up the arse to do the same.

[ASMO]

Toulouse problem is that tbeir forwards are just not dynamic, they just want to pick and smash ad infinitum. Additionally their pivot Ntamack is just quite ordinary, i have to agree withTorq here, he is just all hype and very little substance.(he is a very poor mans Marcus Smith)

[TheFrog]

Not sure why the TMO is not called on that tackle on the Ka Rochelle prop....


The game is far from the intensity and the quality of the Leinster performance.... not good news for the final.

[TheFrog]

Toulouse problem is that tbeir forwards are just not dynamic, they just want to pick and smash ad infinitum. Additionally their pivot Ntamack is just quite ordinary, i have to agree withTorq here, he is just all hype and very little substance.(he is a very poor mans Marcus Smith)

Have you seen the likes of Marchand, Baille, Flament or Cros playing for France? How Baille is in support of Dupont and passes swiftly to his inside support, how Marchand can offload to offer a try to his lock etc... ?

These guys had just no gaz. The Munster semi was the nail in their coffin.

[ASMO]

Not sure why the TMO is not called on that tackle on the Ka Rochelle prop....


The game is far from the intensity and the quality of the Leinster performance.... not good news for the final.

Tackle looked perfect to me, Racing cant hold on to the ball at the moment, their lineout is a bit of a dogs dinner too

[ASMO]

Toulouse problem is that tbeir forwards are just not dynamic, they just want to pick and smash ad infinitum. Additionally their pivot Ntamack is just quite ordinary, i have to agree withTorq here, he is just all hype and very little substance.(he is a very poor mans Marcus Smith)

Have you seen the likes of Marchand, Baille, Flament or Cros playing for France? How Baille is in support of Dupont and passes swiftly to his inside support, how Marchand can offload to offer a try to his lock etc... ?

These guys had just no gaz. The Munster semi was the nail in their coffin.

I dont buy the tiredness excuse, they were equally poor against Munster

[La soule]

Toulouse problem is that tbeir forwards are just not dynamic, they just want to pick and smash ad infinitum. Additionally their pivot Ntamack is just quite ordinary, i have to agree withTorq here, he is just all hype and very little substance.(he is a very poor mans Marcus Smith)

Forwards were not in it indeed. ST is not yet sure to be qualified and it will be a tough end to their season.

As for Ntamack, he will be around for the next few years both for ST & France and I bet he will win more silver with both. For the national team, if he is not good enough, there's still Jalibert, Carbonnel, Hastoy and others. He is not the only option. If he is not good enough, he will simply not get picked.

[ASMO]

Toulouse problem is that tbeir forwards are just not dynamic, they just want to pick and smash ad infinitum. Additionally their pivot Ntamack is just quite ordinary, i have to agree withTorq here, he is just all hype and very little substance.(he is a very poor mans Marcus Smith)

Forwards were not in it indeed. ST is not yet sure to be qualified and it will be a tough end to their season.

As for Ntamack, he will be around for the next few years both for ST & France and I bet he will win more silver with both. For the national team, if he is not good enough, there's still Jalibert, Carbonnel, Hastoy and others. He is not the only option. If he is not good enough, he will simply not get picked.

He does have nice hair though

[La soule]

Toulouse problem is that tbeir forwards are just not dynamic, they just want to pick and smash ad infinitum. Additionally their pivot Ntamack is just quite ordinary, i have to agree withTorq here, he is just all hype and very little substance.(he is a very poor mans Marcus Smith)

Forwards were not in it indeed. ST is not yet sure to be qualified and it will be a tough end to their season.

As for Ntamack, he will be around for the next few years both for ST & France and I bet he will win more silver with both. For the national team, if he is not good enough, there's still Jalibert, Carbonnel, Hastoy and others. He is not the only option. If he is not good enough, he will simply not get picked.

He does have nice hair though

And the shoes, have you seen the shoes?

[TheFrog]

Toulouse problem is that tbeir forwards are just not dynamic, they just want to pick and smash ad infinitum. Additionally their pivot Ntamack is just quite ordinary, i have to agree withTorq here, he is just all hype and very little substance.(he is a very poor mans Marcus Smith)

Have you seen the likes of Marchand, Baille, Flament or Cros playing for France? How Baille is in support of Dupont and passes swiftly to his inside support, how Marchand can offload to offer a try to his lock etc... ?

These guys had just no gaz. The Munster semi was the nail in their coffin.

I dont buy the tiredness excuse, they were equally poor against Munster

Then it must be the coaching because these guys- Flament excepted - looked world class during the 6N.

[ASMO]

On this showing i cant see either of these sides getting within a country mile of Leinster, the Irishman can safely order the new shirts with the 5th star

[TheFrog]

On this showing i cant see either of these sides getting within a country mile of Leinster, the Irishman can safely order the new shirts with the 5th star

Agree... this is dire.

[sockwithaticket]

Holy shit that was a bad tackle attempt. Basically just headbutted the La Rochelle player's knee with his crown.

[ASMO]

Not a great game, indeed a pretty poor advert fot T14

[La soule]

Racing there to play a tight game and it is paying off. It is a waste of their back line.

[ASMO]

Brainless by Chat, Racing just starting to get some momentum and then he does that.

[sockwithaticket]

Well, now it's interesting.

[ASMO]

There is zero quality in this game, Leinster must be pissing themselves laughing watching this.

[OomStruisbaai]

Racing need Gelant.

[fishfoodie]

There is zero quality in this game, Leinster must be pissing themselves laughing watching this.

It's like watching two sides fighting relegation

[ASMO]

Comfortably one of the worst games of rugby i have seen for some time. Congratulations Leinster on your 5th Champions Cup. Whoever wins this, you will win by 30+ points

[Torquemada 1420]

They need upgrades in the second row, bacrow, center and wings. And what do they do? They buy 2 fullbacks.... granted they also signed Barassi who is a good center and Retiere who is a decent winger. But that is not going to help them compensate for their current shortcomings.

Backrow? You sure? Bearing in mind that 2/3rd of that backrow is France's current backrow.

[Torquemada 1420]

There is zero quality in this game, Leinster must be pissing themselves laughing watching this.

These HEC games that all are all French ties are always sh*t. Interestingly Bernol had LaR to win this and I thought no way: in the battle of the flaky FHs, West is a mile worse than Russell.

Racing are a remarkable example of making your sum way less than that of the individual parts. On paper, this side should be invincible in France.

[OomStruisbaai]

That's the ball game.

[Torquemada 1420]

They will face a tougher opposition in the final in the midfield regardless of which team comes through in the other semi final.

No. They won't. As it happens, we know it's LaR but Racing are clueless against sustained physicality as was shown when sh*tehouse Sale had them under the cosh for an age.

LaR has possibly the worst 1/2 back pairing in the T14 and relies on a very poor man's version of what Leinster does. They'll get hammered.

[Torquemada 1420]

[Toulouse seem a really lopsided team,

It's an accusation that could reasonably aimed at all of the T14 sides bar
- Brive: whose resources are so limited, they are just grinders across the park
- Toulon: who have underperformed due to injuries and really poor management but look the best balanced side
- Racing: whose lack of cohesion and consistency seems to reflect Russell although clearly it has nothing to do with him that the entire side plays like strangers all too often