The Scottish Politics Thread

[Tichtheid]

Wanna bet -she's just marching you up the hill again Ticht.


No legislation bought forward (probably because the SGs governments own lawyers wont sign if off)


In fact just a submission to the Supreme Court.

The SG are going for the legality of any referendum from the off, in order to see of any huff and puff from the usual suspects. The date is the preferred option but in the scheme of things it doesn't really matter, what is important in this, to my mind, are two issues, one following on from the other.

1. Is the UK a union by consent?

If yes then any part of the union should be able to hold a referendum on its continued membership at any point it sees fit.

2. If it is not a union by consent, then how does a member of that union leave if its citizens desire it, but the government in Westminster refuses to allow a legal referendum on the subject?

The SNP have said that if the Supreme Court find that acting without "permission" from Westminster is illegal then they will stand at the next GE with independence as their only manifesto policy

Seems to me its fairly straight forward that the UK is a unitary state formed by the merger of former nation states just like Germany, France, Holland, Spain or even the United States ETC. For the record none of those nations consider themselves voluntary unions or loose federations.

I haven't read the act of Union cover to cover but I am not under the impression it contains any of the terms or language you mentioned.

The UK is made of constituent parts, yes?

Is England a region or a country? I think it would be difficult to argue that England is a region given its legal system, its education system, its representation on the world stage etc. By dint of its population it's the major partner in a union of countries that make up a unitary state.

If the population of one of the constituent countries wants a referendum on independence from the union, then I cannot see a logical or moral reason to deny that vote.

Interestingly, Spain brutally put down a peaceful Catalonian independence movement a couple of years ago, imprisoning some of the democratically elected leaders. I think some of them are still in exile elsewhere in the EU.

[tc27]

The SG are going for the legality of any referendum from the off, in order to see of any huff and puff from the usual suspects. The date is the preferred option but in the scheme of things it doesn't really matter, what is important in this, to my mind, are two issues, one following on from the other.

1. Is the UK a union by consent?

If yes then any part of the union should be able to hold a referendum on its continued membership at any point it sees fit.

2. If it is not a union by consent, then how does a member of that union leave if its citizens desire it, but the government in Westminster refuses to allow a legal referendum on the subject?

The SNP have said that if the Supreme Court find that acting without "permission" from Westminster is illegal then they will stand at the next GE with independence as their only manifesto policy

Seems to me its fairly straight forward that the UK is a unitary state formed by the merger of former nation states just like Germany, France, Holland, Spain or even the United States ETC. For the record none of those nations consider themselves voluntary unions or loose federations.

I haven't read the act of Union cover to cover but I am not under the impression it contains any of the terms or language you mentioned.

The UK is made of constituent parts, yes?

Is England a region or a country? I think it would be difficult to argue that England is a region given its legal system, its education system, its representation on the world stage etc. By dint of its population it's the major partner in a union of countries that make up a unitary state.

If the population of one of the constituent countries wants a referendum on independence from the union, then I cannot see a logical or moral reason to deny that vote.

Interestingly, Spain brutally put down a peaceful Catalonian independence movement a couple of years ago, imprisoning some of the democratically elected leaders. I think some of them are still in exile elsewhere in the EU.

Well plenty of countries have 'regions' with distinct legal and educational systems many of which used to be independent states. England and Scotland's (and Wales/NIs) presence on the world stage is cultural (and in sport) but not in the diplomatic or legal sense.

However I do agree a sustained and large majority for another referendum would make a vote inevitable. However that's not the case at the moment. Support for independence is still at 2014 levels, less than a third want a vote next year and the SNP did not win a majority of votes or seats in the election. They gained the latter through Green list seats but the fact is if a majority (based in this case on a minority of votes) in Hoyrood was enough for a referendum the bill would be passed and signed of as legal by the relevant law officers.

[Tichtheid]

Seems to me its fairly straight forward that the UK is a unitary state formed by the merger of former nation states just like Germany, France, Holland, Spain or even the United States ETC. For the record none of those nations consider themselves voluntary unions or loose federations.

I haven't read the act of Union cover to cover but I am not under the impression it contains any of the terms or language you mentioned.

The UK is made of constituent parts, yes?

Is England a region or a country? I think it would be difficult to argue that England is a region given its legal system, its education system, its representation on the world stage etc. By dint of its population it's the major partner in a union of countries that make up a unitary state.

If the population of one of the constituent countries wants a referendum on independence from the union, then I cannot see a logical or moral reason to deny that vote.

Interestingly, Spain brutally put down a peaceful Catalonian independence movement a couple of years ago, imprisoning some of the democratically elected leaders. I think some of them are still in exile elsewhere in the EU.

Well plenty of countries have 'regions' with distinct legal and educational systems many of which used to be independent states. England and Scotland's (and Wales/NIs) presence on the world stage is cultural (and in sport) but not in the diplomatic or legal sense.

However I do agree a sustained and large majority for another referendum would make a vote inevitable. However that's not the case at the moment. Support for independence is still at 2014 levels, less than a third want a vote next year and the SNP did not win a majority of votes or seats in the election. They gained the latter through Green list seats but the fact is if a majority (based in this case on a minority of votes) in Hoyrood was enough for a referendum the bill would be passed and signed of as legal by the relevant law officers.

So, if, as has been said, the SC declares that there is there is no case for a referendum without the article 30 and the SNP go into the next general election with one manifesto pledge only, independence and they win, then there will be another referendum?


I don't see a reason for this btw, if your argument is strong enough put it to a vote.

[Tichtheid]

Well plenty of countries have 'regions' with distinct legal and educational systems many of which used to be independent states. England and Scotland's (and Wales/NIs) presence on the world stage is cultural (and in sport) but not in the diplomatic or legal sense.

I'll ask this again separately, do you think of England as a region or a country?

It's straightforward question.

[tc27]

Well plenty of countries have 'regions' with distinct legal and educational systems many of which used to be independent states. England and Scotland's (and Wales/NIs) presence on the world stage is cultural (and in sport) but not in the diplomatic or legal sense.

I'll ask this again separately, do you think of England as a region or a country?

It's straightforward question.

England is a country. Scotland is a country. Wales is a Country, NI is a err its complicated.

The United Kingdom of GB and NI is a country.

Its possible for complex identities to co-exist with a person and within a polity. A good way to get perspective on this is to ask new or relatively new citizens how they identify - it will almost always be as British. Or talk to someone from Texas or Bavaria (both of which were sovereign countries more recently than England or Scotland).

[Tichtheid]

Well plenty of countries have 'regions' with distinct legal and educational systems many of which used to be independent states. England and Scotland's (and Wales/NIs) presence on the world stage is cultural (and in sport) but not in the diplomatic or legal sense.

I'll ask this again separately, do you think of England as a region or a country?

It's straightforward question.

England is a country. Scotland is a country. Wales is a Country, NI is a err its complicated.

The United Kingdom of GB and NI is a country.

Its possible for complex identities to co-exist with a person and within a polity. A good way to get perspective on this is to ask new or relatively new citizens how they identify - it will almost always be as British. Or talk to someone from Texas or Bavaria (both of which were sovereign countries more recently than England or Scotland).

Yet there is no such country as Britain and the UK is a state made up of countries (with caveats).

I was just trying to establish whether or not there is a circumstance under which you think a referendum vote is legitimate and whether or not the population of a country have the right to determine their own future.

[tc27]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

[fishfoodie]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

For reference, the UK Government, when it signed the Good Friday Agreement, agreed 7 years, as the minimum period between referendums on Irish Reunification. They also agree that the NI Assembly, & HoC had no part in the process, it comes down to whether the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland:

"shall exercise the power [to hold a referendum] if at any time it appears likely to him that a majority of those voting would express a wish that Northern Ireland should cease to be part of the United Kingdom and form part of a united Ireland"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Ireland

[Biffer]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

Britain and the UK aren’t the same thing. Which one is a country?

Britain only existed as a geographic entity in early times, not as any kind of country.

[Tichtheid]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

No one says they are United Kingdomish, some might say they are a citizen of the United Kingdom but I’ve not actually heard that said by anyone, I’ve seen it written formally of course.
It’s not a hill I’m going to die on because the precise definition doesn’t bother me that much. The UK is a state, no question
People do say they are British, that is common parlance, though that is as accurate as saying they are European because of the physical geography

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

It will be over nine years by the time the vote takes place but that is less important than the huge consequences of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the voters and even that is leas important than the democratic deficit being exposed in such a stark manner.

[Crash669]

That super injunction preventing the press from revealing the lies behind her farcical marriage and her real relationship status isn't going to hold forever.

I'm going to hope this is a piss take and you don't really think that because if you're sincere it's a line of misogyny I thought well beneath you. It's not true and it's a shitty thing to suggest about someone.

[Slick]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

No one says they are United Kingdomish, some might say they are a citizen of the United Kingdom but I’ve not actually heard that said by anyone, I’ve seen it written formally of course.
It’s not a hill I’m going to die on because the precise definition doesn’t bother me that much. The UK is a state, no question
People do say they are British, that is common parlance, though that is as accurate as saying they are European because of the physical geography

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

It will be over nine years by the time the vote takes place but that is less important than the huge consequences of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the voters and even that is leas important than the democratic deficit being exposed in such a stark manner.

The huge consequences that hasn’t changed the dial at all in terms of support for independence and pale into real insignificance in economic terms when compared to Scotland leaving the union.

The stark democratic deficit that has followed from the most democratic process imaginable, a 50/50 referendum less than 10 years ago.

It’s all very blah blah

[tc27]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

No one says they are United Kingdomish, some might say they are a citizen of the United Kingdom but I’ve not actually heard that said by anyone, I’ve seen it written formally of course.
It’s not a hill I’m going to die on because the precise definition doesn’t bother me that much. The UK is a state, no question
People do say they are British, that is common parlance, though that is as accurate as saying they are European because of the physical geography

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

It will be over nine years by the time the vote takes place but that is less important than the huge consequences of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the voters and even that is leas important than the democratic deficit being exposed in such a stark manner.

I bet all the change in my pockets there wont be a vote next year...more hope of the ferries being built.

If the SG are not willing to let their own lawyers make a call about the legislation they must know the Supreme court is not going to rule in their favour.

Its all about getting the 45% to vote SNP in GE2024.

[Wylie Coyote]

Indy Ref 2, 19th of October 2023

In her heid.

In all honesty it just feels really tired now, can’t be bothered

This. So much this. Scottish politics for the last decade or more. No actual solutions to the challenges we face, just the constitution and nothing else. Utterly tiresome.

[Biffer]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

No one says they are United Kingdomish, some might say they are a citizen of the United Kingdom but I’ve not actually heard that said by anyone, I’ve seen it written formally of course.
It’s not a hill I’m going to die on because the precise definition doesn’t bother me that much. The UK is a state, no question
People do say they are British, that is common parlance, though that is as accurate as saying they are European because of the physical geography

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

It will be over nine years by the time the vote takes place but that is less important than the huge consequences of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the voters and even that is leas important than the democratic deficit being exposed in such a stark manner.

I bet all the change in my pockets there wont be a vote next year...more hope of the ferries being built.

If the SG are not willing to let their own lawyers make a call about the legislation they must know the Supreme court is not going to rule in their favour.

Its all about getting the 45% to vote SNP in GE2024.

The fact you still use cash indicates just how much of a dinosaur you are.

[tc27]

No one says they are United Kingdomish, some might say they are a citizen of the United Kingdom but I’ve not actually heard that said by anyone, I’ve seen it written formally of course.
It’s not a hill I’m going to die on because the precise definition doesn’t bother me that much. The UK is a state, no question
People do say they are British, that is common parlance, though that is as accurate as saying they are European because of the physical geography




It will be over nine years by the time the vote takes place but that is less important than the huge consequences of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the voters and even that is leas important than the democratic deficit being exposed in such a stark manner.

I bet all the change in my pockets there wont be a vote next year...more hope of the ferries being built.

If the SG are not willing to let their own lawyers make a call about the legislation they must know the Supreme court is not going to rule in their favour.

Its all about getting the 45% to vote SNP in GE2024.

The fact you still use cash indicates just how much of a dinosaur you are.

Bit harsh I only just turned 40 (but my wife would agree with you).

[fishfoodie]

I'm wondering what test you think the UK falls short off to not being a country? Very wierd position IMO. FWiW Britain existed in some form (even as a notion or identity) before various kingdoms coalesced into England' Walea and Scotland

No one says they are United Kingdomish, some might say they are a citizen of the United Kingdom but I’ve not actually heard that said by anyone, I’ve seen it written formally of course.
It’s not a hill I’m going to die on because the precise definition doesn’t bother me that much. The UK is a state, no question
People do say they are British, that is common parlance, though that is as accurate as saying they are European because of the physical geography

As I said before ultimately a clear and sustained majority in favour will make it happen but we dont have that and its only been 8 years since the last one.

It will be over nine years by the time the vote takes place but that is less important than the huge consequences of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the voters and even that is leas important than the democratic deficit being exposed in such a stark manner.

The huge consequences that hasn’t changed the dial at all in terms of support for independence and pale into real insignificance in economic terms when compared to Scotland leaving the union.

The stark democratic deficit that has followed from the most democratic process imaginable, a 50/50 referendum less than 10 years ago.

It’s all very blah blah

The economic consequences of Brexit were just as clear, to anyone who cared to check, but it still got over the line.

The Emotional always triumphs in referendums about Nationality.

[Tichtheid]

For what it's worth, I don't think an Indy vote would be won next year, there would need to be a big lead in the polls to fend off the cold feet on polling day.

[Slick]

No one says they are United Kingdomish, some might say they are a citizen of the United Kingdom but I’ve not actually heard that said by anyone, I’ve seen it written formally of course.
It’s not a hill I’m going to die on because the precise definition doesn’t bother me that much. The UK is a state, no question
People do say they are British, that is common parlance, though that is as accurate as saying they are European because of the physical geography




It will be over nine years by the time the vote takes place but that is less important than the huge consequences of Scotland being taken out of the EU against the will of the voters and even that is leas important than the democratic deficit being exposed in such a stark manner.

The huge consequences that hasn’t changed the dial at all in terms of support for independence and pale into real insignificance in economic terms when compared to Scotland leaving the union.

The stark democratic deficit that has followed from the most democratic process imaginable, a 50/50 referendum less than 10 years ago.

It’s all very blah blah

The economic consequences of Brexit were just as clear, to anyone who cared to check, but it still got over the line.

The Emotional always triumphs in referendums about Nationality.

There isn’t even a comparison.

And no it doesn’t, we are literally talking about one from 8 years ago where it didn’t.

I don’t personally think there are that many people in Scotland ideologically apposed to independence, why on Earth would you be, but the current case for it is so unbelievably flimsy that you have to tie yourself up in knots to pretend it’s a good idea

[fishfoodie]

For what it's worth, I don't think an Indy vote would be won next year, there would need to be a big lead in the polls to fend off the cold feet on polling day.

Don't under-estimate the Bumblecunt factor !

The next year will be shite, & there's the square root of fuck all in it for the Tories to make any effort to make life better in Scotland.

[Tichtheid]

For what it's worth, I don't think an Indy vote would be won next year, there would need to be a big lead in the polls to fend off the cold feet on polling day.

Don't under-estimate the Bumblecunt factor !

The next year will be shite, & there's the square root of fuck all in it for the Tories to make any effort to make life better in Scotland.

I don't doubt it, but to be honest there is no change there.

There hasn't been a tory majority in Scotland for a very long time, since 1955 and before that 1935, they have nothing to lose.

[Slick]

For what it's worth, I don't think an Indy vote would be won next year, there would need to be a big lead in the polls to fend off the cold feet on polling day.

Don't under-estimate the Bumblecunt factor !

The next year will be shite, & there's the square root of fuck all in it for the Tories to make any effort to make life better in Scotland.

Again, it’s hardly moved the dial. Amazingly really, but it hasn’t.

Honestly, I think the time has come and gone for the time being. The SG look tired and bored of regurgitating the same old shite and many don’t seem to really believe it themselves. This is all just grandstanding

[fishfoodie]

For what it's worth, I don't think an Indy vote would be won next year, there would need to be a big lead in the polls to fend off the cold feet on polling day.

Don't under-estimate the Bumblecunt factor !

The next year will be shite, & there's the square root of fuck all in it for the Tories to make any effort to make life better in Scotland.

I don't doubt it, but to be honest there is no change there.

There hasn't been a tory majority in Scotland for a very long time, they have nothing to lose.

and looking at the embarrassment that is their current leader, there won't be any change.

Since Brexit, this Tory Government has; not so subtly, been reneging on it's Pre-Ref promises to equal EU regional funding; which will of course hit Scotland disproportionately; it's also now removed the rights of the regional assemblies to distribute this funding themselves, instead pulling that power back to London.

My point is that the direction of travel is going one way, & as the Irish Government warned Cameron; having a Referendum is very dangerous when the populace wants to kick the (London) Government hard !

[Tichtheid]

Don't under-estimate the Bumblecunt factor !

The next year will be shite, & there's the square root of fuck all in it for the Tories to make any effort to make life better in Scotland.

I don't doubt it, but to be honest there is no change there.

There hasn't been a tory majority in Scotland for a very long time, they have nothing to lose.

and looking at the embarrassment that is their current leader, there won't be any change.

Since Brexit, this Tory Government has; not so subtly, been reneging on it's Pre-Ref promises to equal EU regional funding; which will of course hit Scotland disproportionately; it's also now removed the rights of the regional assemblies to distribute this funding themselves, instead pulling that power back to London.

My point is that the direction of travel is going one way, & as the Irish Government warned Cameron; having a Referendum is very dangerous when the populace wants to kick the (London) Government hard !

I just don't think we have the numbers at present. Roughly 48% voted SNP at the last Scottish election in 2021, Labour and the Shitehawks were both on around 22%, LibDems on about 7%, Greens got a couple of points.

I'm using a broad brush and assuming all of those votes would follow the party lead, but of course that won't happen.

It may happen in the future, but for now I just can't see it.

[fishfoodie]

I don't doubt it, but to be honest there is no change there.

There hasn't been a tory majority in Scotland for a very long time, they have nothing to lose.

and looking at the embarrassment that is their current leader, there won't be any change.

Since Brexit, this Tory Government has; not so subtly, been reneging on it's Pre-Ref promises to equal EU regional funding; which will of course hit Scotland disproportionately; it's also now removed the rights of the regional assemblies to distribute this funding themselves, instead pulling that power back to London.

My point is that the direction of travel is going one way, & as the Irish Government warned Cameron; having a Referendum is very dangerous when the populace wants to kick the (London) Government hard !

I just don't think we have the numbers at present. Roughly 48% voted SNP at the last Scottish election in 2021, Labour and the Shitehawks were both on around 22%, LibDems on about 7%, Greens got a couple of points.

I'm using a broad brush and assuming all of those votes would follow the party lead, but of course that won't happen.

It may happen in the future, but for now I just can't see it.

You are making the classic mistake of confusing Nationalism, as a Political division, & not a societal one; as Brexit demonstrated perfectly, these things don't neatly slice along Party lines !

The issue is a lot cleaner in Scotland, because you do have a Party that is explicitly making that case, but you do have those people who vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, who also identify more strongly as Scottish, than British.

I'm sure demographics are also in play too; & I imagine stuff like freedom of movement, which wasn't an issue at the last vote, now, all of a sudden is, with a demographic that didn't have a say last timeout.

[C69]

Basically Boris heads the English nationalist Conservative Party.
No Mandate outside England.

[weegie01]

I think it is known I favour independence.

But I can't see any case for having a referendum until it is 'the settled will of the Scottish people'. Lose another and the idea is in the long grass for a very, very long time.

In times of turmoil people either vote for the devil they know, or the bright shining promise. Trump was many things, but for many Americans there was the bright shining promise of MAGA. People believed that America was being held back, and if only someone could free them of those chains, they would once more become the land of milk and honey for all. That he was a charlatan did not matter, he gave people hope.

There is no bright shining promise in Scotland just now. There is the same tired old rhetoric which is not going to change anyone's mind. So people will stick with the devil they know. It really is flogging a dead horse at the moment.

[Tichtheid]

and looking at the embarrassment that is their current leader, there won't be any change.

Since Brexit, this Tory Government has; not so subtly, been reneging on it's Pre-Ref promises to equal EU regional funding; which will of course hit Scotland disproportionately; it's also now removed the rights of the regional assemblies to distribute this funding themselves, instead pulling that power back to London.

My point is that the direction of travel is going one way, & as the Irish Government warned Cameron; having a Referendum is very dangerous when the populace wants to kick the (London) Government hard !

I just don't think we have the numbers at present. Roughly 48% voted SNP at the last Scottish election in 2021, Labour and the Shitehawks were both on around 22%, LibDems on about 7%, Greens got a couple of points.

I'm using a broad brush and assuming all of those votes would follow the party lead, but of course that won't happen.

It may happen in the future, but for now I just can't see it.

You are making the classic mistake of confusing Nationalism, as a Political division, & not a societal one; as Brexit demonstrated perfectly, these things don't neatly slice along Party lines !

The issue is a lot cleaner in Scotland, because you do have a Party that is explicitly making that case, but you do have those people who vote Labour, or Lib Dem, or Green, who also identify more strongly as Scottish, than British.

I'm sure demographics are also in play too; & I imagine stuff like freedom of movement, which wasn't an issue at the last vote, now, all of a sudden is, with a demographic that didn't have a say last timeout.

Believe me, I'm not making that mistake.

I did say I was using a broad brush, but I'll concede I wasn't very clear, there are many people who would vote SNP but would also vote No in an Indy referendum, many of those are ex-Labour voters, the Labour vote collapsed in Scotland after decades of it being "weighed rather than counted"

Anecdotally I think there are far more people who identify as Scottish rather than British, vastly more, but again that does not secure a Yes vote, not yet.

I'll have to throw in the towel for this evening

[Tichtheid]

Anecdotally I think there are far more people who identify as Scottish rather than British, vastly more,

One final point this evening, and I did say it was an anecdote, but I cannot recall meeting anyone in Scotland who did not identify as Scottish first, not one person.

Everyone wants what is best for Scotland, but we don't all agree on what that is.

[Big D]

In all honesty it just feels really tired now, can’t be bothered

This. Might be a covid thing, might be that I am fed up of division (although that appears to be the new normal) or that while I understand there needs to be a future debate on independence, I'd rather the time and money was spent on covid recovery, education etc rather than independence which will again dominate.

Completely understand that others will have very different opinions on that and that's fair enough.

[Jock42]

In all honesty it just feels really tired now, can’t be bothered

This. Might be a covid thing, might be that I am fed up of division (although that appears to be the new normal) or that while I understand there needs to be a future debate on independence, I'd rather the time and money was spent on covid recovery, education etc rather than independence which will again dominate.

Completely understand that others will have very different opinions on that and that's fair enough.

The divide is one of the biggest kicks in the bollocks. The thought of going through this shite again is pretty depressing. I've said before that I was optimistic we would have an adult debate about things prior to the last referendum. It started well enough but quickly descended into immature tribal shite that got worse after the vote. We've not grown as a nation since then and I doubt we will in the coming year.

[tc27]

If the next General election is run on the basis of the SNP running a one line manifesto claiming every vote for them is in effect a defacto vote for Independence (presumably meaning if they get 50.01% of the vote share or more they try and start negotiations to split the UK) would this change anyone's voting intention?

Its a hell of a gamble - they would have to do even better than 2015.

[Slick]

Anecdotally I think there are far more people who identify as Scottish rather than British, vastly more,

One final point this evening, and I did say it was an anecdote, but I cannot recall meeting anyone in Scotland who did not identify as Scottish first, not one person.

Everyone wants what is best for Scotland, but we don't all agree on what that is.

Very well said

[Biffer]

Anecdotally I think there are far more people who identify as Scottish rather than British, vastly more,

One final point this evening, and I did say it was an anecdote, but I cannot recall meeting anyone in Scotland who did not identify as Scottish first, not one person.

Everyone wants what is best for Scotland, but we don't all agree on what that is.

I have. Not many, but I have

[Blackmac]

That super injunction preventing the press from revealing the lies behind her farcical marriage and her real relationship status isn't going to hold forever.

I'm going to hope this is a piss take and you don't really think that because if you're sincere it's a line of misogyny I thought well beneath you. It's not true and it's a shitty thing to suggest about someone.

I can't work out if you are taking the piss or not because I can't for the life of me see how anyone would consider that misogynistic. I think most people would be genuinely concerned to find out that a high profile politician of any gender were involved in such an elaborate deception.

[Blackmac]

In all honesty it just feels really tired now, can’t be bothered

This. Might be a covid thing, might be that I am fed up of division (although that appears to be the new normal) or that while I understand there needs to be a future debate on independence, I'd rather the time and money was spent on covid recovery, education etc rather than independence which will again dominate.

Completely understand that others will have very different opinions on that and that's fair enough.

The divide is one of the biggest kicks in the bollocks. The thought of going through this shite again is pretty depressing. I've said before that I was optimistic we would have an adult debate about things prior to the last referendum. It started well enough but quickly descended into immature tribal shite that got worse after the vote. We've not grown as a nation since then and I doubt we will in the coming year.

So much this. That and the fact that there doesn't seem to be one politician or high profile public servant capable of making even a half decent fist of it.

[Big D]

This. Might be a covid thing, might be that I am fed up of division (although that appears to be the new normal) or that while I understand there needs to be a future debate on independence, I'd rather the time and money was spent on covid recovery, education etc rather than independence which will again dominate.

Completely understand that others will have very different opinions on that and that's fair enough.

The divide is one of the biggest kicks in the bollocks. The thought of going through this shite again is pretty depressing. I've said before that I was optimistic we would have an adult debate about things prior to the last referendum. It started well enough but quickly descended into immature tribal shite that got worse after the vote. We've not grown as a nation since then and I doubt we will in the coming year.

So much this. That and the fact that there doesn't seem to be one politician or high profile public servant capable of making even a half decent fist of it.

This.

I find very few frontline politicians across the UK trustworthy. Maybe they never have been. The problem is that there is no real alternatives.

[C T]

I think it is known I favour independence.

But I can't see any case for having a referendum until it is 'the settled will of the Scottish people'. Lose another and the idea is in the long grass for a very, very long time.

In times of turmoil people either vote for the devil they know, or the bright shining promise. Trump was many things, but for many Americans there was the bright shining promise of MAGA. People believed that America was being held back, and if only someone could free them of those chains, they would once more become the land of milk and honey for all. That he was a charlatan did not matter, he gave people hope.

There is no bright shining promise in Scotland just now. There is the same tired old rhetoric which is not going to change anyone's mind. So people will stick with the devil they know. It really is flogging a dead horse at the moment.

This is about where my head is at.

I completely get the case for another referendum given all that has changed since the last, not least leaving the EU. But if winning the referendum is the intention rather than just having it, I can't see the win happening. Then after, the leaving the EU argument for another referendum is spent and it'll be a long while until the next one.

Seems more sensible to wait, let the leaving the EU impacts become more vivid, another couple of years of the current Tory government (not just Boris, a fair chunk of them are complicit), some more time to get answers to some of the bigger questions last time.

If Boris wants to kill this off for a while the best thing he could do is support it. I can't really believe the Scottish Government want it because losing is such a big risk and the impact of losing will be huge for the ultimate goal.

Seems like posturing/being seen to at least try and fulfil what they said they would do to me.

[pjm1]

Anecdotally I think there are far more people who identify as Scottish rather than British, vastly more,

One final point this evening, and I did say it was an anecdote, but I cannot recall meeting anyone in Scotland who did not identify as Scottish first, not one person.

Everyone wants what is best for Scotland, but we don't all agree on what that is.

Just to clarify - I presume you mean you haven't met anyone Scottish in Scotland who did not identify as Scottish first?! If so, I'd agree completely with your straw poll, but obviously there is a pretty large contingent of non-Scottish people living in Scotland (I am one).

[Tichtheid]

Anecdotally I think there are far more people who identify as Scottish rather than British, vastly more,

One final point this evening, and I did say it was an anecdote, but I cannot recall meeting anyone in Scotland who did not identify as Scottish first, not one person.

Everyone wants what is best for Scotland, but we don't all agree on what that is.

Just to clarify - I presume you mean you haven't met anyone Scottish in Scotland who did not identify as Scottish first?! If so, I'd agree completely with your straw poll, but obviously there is a pretty large contingent of non-Scottish people living in Scotland (I am one).

aye, after I wrote that I saw that I’d left a door open. I meant Scottish-born, but again that is not the whole shebang, a school friend’s children have never lived in Scotland but they identify as Scottish. They are not alone in that.

People who settle in Scotland are welcome to identify as Scottish if they wish.