Concussion Legal Action Against WR

[Niegs]

So a class action suit against WR now?


And over at PR someone suggested giving this a listen. Sounds like IRB/WR were warned and even had longer stand-down periods than now between the 1970s and early 90s:

https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/1 ... 0553922511
https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/1 ... 0554696354

[Tichtheid]

I read this story in the Observer yesterday and it came at the dementia angle from a position I hadn't considered before, the problem of caring for men in their late forties who are six foot five and 18 stones displaying aggressive behaviour.

I guess these guys will spend the rest of their lives drugged into a stupor

If some or any of these conditions reported by players turn out to be degenerative, that storm in the distance is heading rugby’s way. When the story broke of the crisis in 2020, I wrote about my family’s own experience with early-onset dementia. In 2019, after years of escalating difficulties with memory, executive function and emotional ability, my wife was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s at the age of 49.

In October last year, after a seizure in the small hours one morning, she was taken to hospital and thence to a nursing home, where she now requires full-time care. The search for a home for her was already under way by then, but the vast majority were unable to take her.

The underlying issue, sometimes not even unspoken, is the very real responsibility homes have for their residents, who are frail and vulnerable. They could not accommodate someone in her early 50s known to exhibit what is euphemistically known as “challenging behaviour”.

My wife is closer to five foot than six and she did not play international rugby. If she is too much for most homes to take on, how many will consider someone who does answer to that description?

She suffers from a rare and aggressive form of Alzheimer’s, which is different from CTE. Her deterioration has been swift and unanswerable. There is every chance the diagnosed players will follow a less precipitous decline, which might respond to treatment and good living, if they follow a decline at all. But for those who do turn out to have CTE, which is by definition degenerative, the need to find accommodation will be as much about the safety of their families as a question of practicality.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ing-itself

[inactionman]

Some research published which shows causative links between repeated impacts and chronic traumatic encephalopathy (CTE)

I'll admit I had presumed we already had that causative link, but apparently not.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/62302408

[inactionman]

I read this story in the Observer yesterday and it came at the dementia angle from a position I hadn't considered before, the problem of caring for men in their late forties who are six foot five and 18 stones displaying aggressive behaviour.

I guess these guys will spend the rest of their lives drugged into a stupor

If some or any of these conditions reported by players turn out to be degenerative, that storm in the distance is heading rugby’s way. When the story broke of the crisis in 2020, I wrote about my family’s own experience with early-onset dementia. In 2019, after years of escalating difficulties with memory, executive function and emotional ability, my wife was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s at the age of 49.

In October last year, after a seizure in the small hours one morning, she was taken to hospital and thence to a nursing home, where she now requires full-time care. The search for a home for her was already under way by then, but the vast majority were unable to take her.

The underlying issue, sometimes not even unspoken, is the very real responsibility homes have for their residents, who are frail and vulnerable. They could not accommodate someone in her early 50s known to exhibit what is euphemistically known as “challenging behaviour”.

My wife is closer to five foot than six and she did not play international rugby. If she is too much for most homes to take on, how many will consider someone who does answer to that description?

She suffers from a rare and aggressive form of Alzheimer’s, which is different from CTE. Her deterioration has been swift and unanswerable. There is every chance the diagnosed players will follow a less precipitous decline, which might respond to treatment and good living, if they follow a decline at all. But for those who do turn out to have CTE, which is by definition degenerative, the need to find accommodation will be as much about the safety of their families as a question of practicality.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ing-itself

It's an interesting aspect that I'll also admit I hadn't really considered.

We've a family friend who is caring for someone in a pretty advanced stage of dementia, and there are quite a few aggressive behaviours which came through that were unpleasant to manage and perhaps just as significantly are horribly distressing for all concerned (being screamed at in public places, out-of-character abuse etc etc). The fundamental issue wasn't really one of physical risk, it's more the exhausting and distressing ongoing abuse from someone who you see dying in front of you. The poor patient is a retired prof, not a muscular, hyper-competitive athlete though - I can't imagine how hard it would be to care for someone you were at physical risk from.

I'll admit to being a bit surprised there was some difficulty in finding care beyond the usual - even with the increase of ex rugby players with brain injuries, we've had veterans, boxers etc etc since the year dot. Surely it's not exactly an unknown use case?

[Slick]

I read this story in the Observer yesterday and it came at the dementia angle from a position I hadn't considered before, the problem of caring for men in their late forties who are six foot five and 18 stones displaying aggressive behaviour.

I guess these guys will spend the rest of their lives drugged into a stupor

If some or any of these conditions reported by players turn out to be degenerative, that storm in the distance is heading rugby’s way. When the story broke of the crisis in 2020, I wrote about my family’s own experience with early-onset dementia. In 2019, after years of escalating difficulties with memory, executive function and emotional ability, my wife was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s at the age of 49.

In October last year, after a seizure in the small hours one morning, she was taken to hospital and thence to a nursing home, where she now requires full-time care. The search for a home for her was already under way by then, but the vast majority were unable to take her.

The underlying issue, sometimes not even unspoken, is the very real responsibility homes have for their residents, who are frail and vulnerable. They could not accommodate someone in her early 50s known to exhibit what is euphemistically known as “challenging behaviour”.

My wife is closer to five foot than six and she did not play international rugby. If she is too much for most homes to take on, how many will consider someone who does answer to that description?

She suffers from a rare and aggressive form of Alzheimer’s, which is different from CTE. Her deterioration has been swift and unanswerable. There is every chance the diagnosed players will follow a less precipitous decline, which might respond to treatment and good living, if they follow a decline at all. But for those who do turn out to have CTE, which is by definition degenerative, the need to find accommodation will be as much about the safety of their families as a question of practicality.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ing-itself

It's not easy.... but it is usually a relatively short lived phase at the start of the real decline. My dad had it and was 6'3" and a strong man (2nd row/No8). He scared the shit out of my mum on a few times and punched me in the face, both in public and private on a few occasions. The frustrating thing is it kicked in just about the time when it was becoming unmanageable for mum, but we had to wait until he calmed down before anyone would consider taking him.

Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

[Tichtheid]

It's not easy.... but it is usually a relatively short lived phase at the start of the real decline. My dad had it and was 6'3" and a strong man (2nd row/No8). He scared the shit out of my mum on a few times and punched me in the face, both in public and private on a few occasions. The frustrating thing is it kicked in just about the time when it was becoming unmanageable for mum, but we had to wait until he calmed down before anyone would consider taking him.

Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I'm very sorry to hear that, sincerely, it must have been very distressing for all of you.

[Slick]

It's not easy.... but it is usually a relatively short lived phase at the start of the real decline. My dad had it and was 6'3" and a strong man (2nd row/No8). He scared the shit out of my mum on a few times and punched me in the face, both in public and private on a few occasions. The frustrating thing is it kicked in just about the time when it was becoming unmanageable for mum, but we had to wait until he calmed down before anyone would consider taking him.

Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

I'm very sorry to hear that, sincerely, it must have been very distressing for all of you.

Thanks mate

[Guy Smiley]

Sorry reading Slick, I can imagine the conflicting emotions you must have felt.

[Slick]

Sorry reading Slick, I can imagine the conflicting emotions you must have felt.

Yeah. Remember one in particular where I’d been following him at a distance after he barged past my mum to get out the house. He spotted me and walked up, in a packed high street, and twatted me. I shouted back “do that again and I’ll hit you back” ( don’t think I would have done) and he smiled and held out his hand for me to take it and lead him home.

Oh dear, that’s got me going.

Just had to remember that the man he had been would never in a million years have raised his hands to his wife or kids.

Anwyay.

[Guy Smiley]

My father suffered stroke induced dementia and declined slowly, most of which I missed as I lived thousands of km's away. Visits home became ever more strange and strained but, while he did become aggressive and erratic, there was never any outright violence.

He was a pianist, not a pugilist.

It's s terrible, shitty thing to deal with and those crying out about the game not being what it was can shove it where the sun won't shine.

[Kiwias]

I read this story in the Observer yesterday and it came at the dementia angle from a position I hadn't considered before, the problem of caring for men in their late forties who are six foot five and 18 stones displaying aggressive behaviour.

I guess these guys will spend the rest of their lives drugged into a stupor

If some or any of these conditions reported by players turn out to be degenerative, that storm in the distance is heading rugby’s way. When the story broke of the crisis in 2020, I wrote about my family’s own experience with early-onset dementia. In 2019, after years of escalating difficulties with memory, executive function and emotional ability, my wife was diagnosed with Alzheimer’s at the age of 49.

In October last year, after a seizure in the small hours one morning, she was taken to hospital and thence to a nursing home, where she now requires full-time care. The search for a home for her was already under way by then, but the vast majority were unable to take her.

The underlying issue, sometimes not even unspoken, is the very real responsibility homes have for their residents, who are frail and vulnerable. They could not accommodate someone in her early 50s known to exhibit what is euphemistically known as “challenging behaviour”.

My wife is closer to five foot than six and she did not play international rugby. If she is too much for most homes to take on, how many will consider someone who does answer to that description?

She suffers from a rare and aggressive form of Alzheimer’s, which is different from CTE. Her deterioration has been swift and unanswerable. There is every chance the diagnosed players will follow a less precipitous decline, which might respond to treatment and good living, if they follow a decline at all. But for those who do turn out to have CTE, which is by definition degenerative, the need to find accommodation will be as much about the safety of their families as a question of practicality.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/blog/ ... ing-itself

It's not easy.... but it is usually a relatively short lived phase at the start of the real decline. My dad had it and was 6'3" and a strong man (2nd row/No8). He scared the shit out of my mum on a few times and punched me in the face, both in public and private on a few occasions. The frustrating thing is it kicked in just about the time when it was becoming unmanageable for mum, but we had to wait until he calmed down before anyone would consider taking him.

Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

That is seriously rough, mate.

[Niegs]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

[GogLais]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

Haven’t read it yet - it’s a long one, four full pages.

[robmatic]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

That's a difficult read.

There are some people at the SRU who should be ashamed.

[SaintK]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

That's a difficult read.

There are some people at the SRU who should be ashamed.

It was a very difficult read though excellently written by David Walsh.

[I like neeps]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

That's a difficult read.

There are some people at the SRU who should be ashamed.

The SRU response has frankly been an absolute disgrace. I can't believe there's a lack of any introspection. It's very strange they've totally closed ranks - really can be no reason for it.

[Margin__Walker]

That's a shocking read. Would have been bad enough 20 years ago, but there's no excuse at all these days with the focus on head injuries.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

That's a shocking read. Would have been bad enough 20 years ago, but there's no excuse at all these days with the focus on head injuries.

This thread has several examples of governing bodies slopy shouldering the issue when they really should have seen the writing on the wall from NFL and have got ahead of the problem.

[Stranger]

The game has some serious issues at the moment.

[Uncle fester]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

Thanks for posting. What a terrible tragedy for the family.

[Niegs]

Can anyone share the full story? https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/they ... -n668rkwlt

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

Cheers ... what a nightmare for that poor girl, partner, and family. Even if the "Get her back on the fucking pitch" thing didn't happen or was mis-heard, and despite Covid, you look after your people. Various SRU people don't come out well in that.

[Slick]

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

That's a difficult read.

There are some people at the SRU who should be ashamed.

The SRU response has frankly been an absolute disgrace. I can't believe there's a lack of any introspection. It's very strange they've totally closed ranks - really can be no reason for it.

That really unsettled me.

It is quite strange that there are so many instances of the family and the SRU claiming completely opposite things

[Slick]

[Big D]

https://archive.ph/ZghTw

That's a difficult read.

There are some people at the SRU who should be ashamed.

The SRU response has frankly been an absolute disgrace. I can't believe there's a lack of any introspection. It's very strange they've totally closed ranks - really can be no reason for it.

If there's a potential legal action being suggested then there's no way they'll be saying much publically.

If, and it sounds like there should be, sackings then that also needs to be done confidentially as we've seen with the Yorkshire CCC racism issues where there are unfair dismissal suits.

[Big D]

We are seeing so many stories about professionals and brain injuries but there must be so many amateur level players with the same issues. Scary to think about really.

[I like neeps]

That's a difficult read.

There are some people at the SRU who should be ashamed.

The SRU response has frankly been an absolute disgrace. I can't believe there's a lack of any introspection. It's very strange they've totally closed ranks - really can be no reason for it.

That really unsettled me.

It is quite strange that there are so many instances of the family and the SRU claiming completely opposite things

Very true. I think to be charitable to the SRU, The Times will take any opportunity to act as judge jury and executioner of the SRU. And I take the point that they can't say too much about any ongoing legal cases and they won't out of respect get into an argument with the Cattigans. And I can see how in their unimaginable grief you'd look for someone to blame and the SRU don't seem to have taken steps in hindsight that they really should have.

The story is very unsettling and you'd hope for a review at the minimum. I do feel a bit sorry for Bryan Easson if he didn't say what he is accessed of though. His reputation has been destroyed in a national paper. Obviously if he said it he deserves that at the very least but if he didn't... I don't feel comfortable with that accusation.

But at the very least a hugely sad story. I can't imagine what her family are going through. Just awful.

[Slick]

The SRU response has frankly been an absolute disgrace. I can't believe there's a lack of any introspection. It's very strange they've totally closed ranks - really can be no reason for it.

That really unsettled me.

It is quite strange that there are so many instances of the family and the SRU claiming completely opposite things

Very true. I think to be charitable to the SRU, The Times will take any opportunity to act as judge jury and executioner of the SRU. And I take the point that they can't say too much about any ongoing legal cases and they won't out of respect get into an argument with the Cattigans. And I can see how in their unimaginable grief you'd look for someone to blame and the SRU don't seem to have taken steps in hindsight that they really should have.

The story is very unsettling and you'd hope for a review at the minimum. I do feel a bit sorry for Bryan Easson if he didn't say what he is accessed of though. His reputation has been destroyed in a national paper. Obviously if he said it he deserves that at the very least but if he didn't... I don't feel comfortable with that accusation.

But at the very least a hugely sad story. I can't imagine what her family are going through. Just awful.

Yes that probably sums up my thoughts as well. I see that David Walsh got praise further up, but I do find that he goes for the jugular a bit much these days and his articles lose a lot of balance

Insaying that, it does seem extraordinary that the SRU wouldn’t provide even basic care and face to face check ups even through Covid

[GogLais]

I hesitate to say it but as it's in the public domain and hugely important in the context of the article - unless I missed it there's no reference to the precise cause of death is there? I'm not for a second suggesting it wasn't rugby related but it seems an odd omission.

[Guy Smiley]

I started to read that and couldn't go past the first para or so... emotive descriptions of what clothes someone wore on their first date is playing the audience and setting up a witch hunt.

Simple facts would be fair to all concerned.

[Jock42]

I started to read that and couldn't go past the first para or so... emotive descriptions of what clothes someone wore on their first date is playing the audience and setting up a witch hunt.

Simple facts would be fair to all concerned.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I got further than the first paragraph but thought the same as you. Give me the facts and let me make up my own mind.

[Niegs]

I started to read that and couldn't go past the first para or so... emotive descriptions of what clothes someone wore on their first date is playing the audience and setting up a witch hunt.

Simple facts would be fair to all concerned.

On the other hand, her death was reported with just the facts last year. This one provides a much deeper look at who she was, the impact on her family, and asks some big questions. Not saying you have to read it, but I think it was fair.

[I like neeps]

I started to read that and couldn't go past the first para or so... emotive descriptions of what clothes someone wore on their first date is playing the audience and setting up a witch hunt.

Simple facts would be fair to all concerned.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I got further than the first paragraph but thought the same as you. Give me the facts and ethics me make up my own mind.

She commit suicide.

What is strange is usually in articles about suicide you have the number for Samaritans at the bottom.

[GogLais]

I started to read that and couldn't go past the first para or so... emotive descriptions of what clothes someone wore on their first date is playing the audience and setting up a witch hunt.

Simple facts would be fair to all concerned.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I got further than the first paragraph but thought the same as you. Give me the facts and ethics me make up my own mind.

She commit suicide.

What is strange is usually in articles about suicide you have the number for Samaritans at the bottom.

Ah I’ve just read it again - “succumbed to an irrational thought and impulsive action”. I suppose I was expecting to see something on the lines of “ A post-mortem revealed that …..”.

[Jock42]

It's not easy.... but it is usually a relatively short lived phase at the start of the real decline. My dad had it and was 6'3" and a strong man (2nd row/No8). He scared the shit out of my mum on a few times and punched me in the face, both in public and private on a few occasions. The frustrating thing is it kicked in just about the time when it was becoming unmanageable for mum, but we had to wait until he calmed down before anyone would consider taking him.

Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Sorry to read that mate. I've no personal experience, only professional, with alzheimers/dementia but I hope you're able to remember who he was.

[Guy Smiley]

It's not easy.... but it is usually a relatively short lived phase at the start of the real decline. My dad had it and was 6'3" and a strong man (2nd row/No8). He scared the shit out of my mum on a few times and punched me in the face, both in public and private on a few occasions. The frustrating thing is it kicked in just about the time when it was becoming unmanageable for mum, but we had to wait until he calmed down before anyone would consider taking him.

Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Sorry to read that mate. I've no personal experience, only professional, with alzheimers/dementia but I hope you're able to remember who he was.

Christ... do you think it's hereditary?

[Slick]

It's not easy.... but it is usually a relatively short lived phase at the start of the real decline. My dad had it and was 6'3" and a strong man (2nd row/No8). He scared the shit out of my mum on a few times and punched me in the face, both in public and private on a few occasions. The frustrating thing is it kicked in just about the time when it was becoming unmanageable for mum, but we had to wait until he calmed down before anyone would consider taking him.

Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Sorry to read that mate. I've no personal experience, only professional, with alzheimers/dementia but I hope you're able to remember who he was.

Christ... do you think it's hereditary?

Thanks Jock, and yes, just remember the good times and always found it relatively easy to brush off that kind of stuff

[MungoMan]

I started to read that and couldn't go past the first para or so... emotive descriptions of what clothes someone wore on their first date is playing the audience and setting up a witch hunt.

Simple facts would be fair to all concerned.

I'm glad I'm not the only one. I got further than the first paragraph but thought the same as you. Give me the facts and let me make up my own mind.

#methree.

Artlcles that are transparently sobstories, articles that direct one how to think and feel from the first few paragraphs: they're articles I will not be finishing.

[JM2K6]

It's actually pretty important to the story to understand what she was like and what it meant when her character changed, as well as her complete and lifelong commitment to the sport. It's all relevant.

You're all bright chaps, you can read the whole thing and make your own minds up.

[Tichtheid]

I think it's important to humanise bare facts to get a fuller picture of what happened. We can read about concussion numbers and early onset dementia, but that doesn't come nearly close to describing what is going on, it is parents, sons and daughters, husbands, wives and partners who are suffering this, they are not just bare statistics, there is far more to them than that and it doesn't just affect the player themselves.

"Doddie Weir was diagnosed with MND, he was a Scottish international and played for the Lions. As yet no definite link has been found in the collisions in rugby and MND."

That doesn't tell you anything about the man Doddie Weir is, nor how the diagnosis has affected his family and the rugby community.

We have to take head trauma seriously and that means a huge change in how we play the game and how the players are treated off it, this affects players, their families and the wider care system. Even if appropriate changes are made right now there is a large backlog of players who might well have similar diagnoses to Ryan Jones and others in the next two decades.
This isn't something we should turn away from.