Worcester and Wasps GONE?

[Raggs]

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

My only caveat to this would be the COVID effect. 2 years away from any activity is likely to result in a decline in nos. which might be distorting the picture.

I'd imagine a lot of guys in their 30s & 40s found that once you stop playing it's hard to get going again. So I don't hold out hope those numbers will bounce back, suspect this is a 'new normal'. Of course once you reach this level of numbers all it takes is a few front row injuries and you can't put out a 1st XV.

In a lot of cases it's us 30s + 40s that tend to make up the front rows anyway, which as you say rapidly kills off teams, especially 2nds and 3rds etc.

[SaintK]

It’s pretty astonishing that the unsustainably of the rugby model and the pie in the sky predictions of growth from unions, clubs and professional investors have been ridiculed by your average rugby fan for years, yet the people running it and putting in the cash seem to be completely surprised.

Pro rugby has completely wrecked the game as a pastime and I suspect will lead to it pretty much dying completely over the next few decades. We all saw this coming

On this I went up to A&C on President's Day earlier this year and was genuinely staggered to learn that Beaconsfield were only putting out their 2s for either the second or third time that season. Another local club is down to one side and talking to a player from another big side at Lord's he said verbatim 'I'm hopeful we'll play most of our 2s games this season'. Doubt that this is unique to Bucks.

I get the feeling it is much like this around the country.
I'm in Hertfordshire and my club is now only running two senior mens sides and occassionally the 2's will travel with just 15 players and no replacements. Covid has exacerbated what was already a serious problem in dwindling playing numbers and we lost just about 20 junior/colts players over lockdown, about half of who would have transitioned to senior rugby.
The RFU have drastically cut funding to the community game over the past 6-10 years withdrawing funding for RDO's and YDO's across the country amnd making dozens and dozens of them redundant.
A slow and inexorable decline is happening in the lower reaches of rugby

[Tichtheid]

Video games, change in work patterns, tons more kids going off to uni after school, change in attitudes towards family, these are just some of the reasons we are seeing a drop off in player numbers after school

I have no idea how to reverse the trend

[SaintK]

Video games, change in work patterns, tons more kids going off to uni after school, change in attitudes towards family, these are just some of the reasons we are seeing a drop off in player numbers after school

I have no idea how to reverse the trend

All of these reasons and probably a few more!
The only growth in rugby we are seeing is in the girls game. My club were early adopters and a regional hub, though more and more clubs are setting up girls sections now. Though having said that we saw a small percentage increase in numbers in our mini section. How the bloody hell do we retain them when they get to their late teens?

[Paddington Bear]

Video games, change in work patterns, tons more kids going off to uni after school, change in attitudes towards family, these are just some of the reasons we are seeing a drop off in player numbers after school

I have no idea how to reverse the trend

Whatever the sport is (rugby the RFU have data for this, I see it all the time in cricket and I know from mates who run Sunday league football teams it's the same) the amount of us willing to properly commit to a whole season has massively declined, which makes putting sides out over a 15-25 game season a complete bloody nightmare. I have half a suspicion that a shortened season with a few more breaks in it might help with this, but then some people just don't give enough of a shit to organise other stuff for the bye weeks anyway.

Uni is the absolute killer and there's no working round that one.

[Niegs]

Are rec sports on the rise there?

I play footy on Fridays with some friends and a bunch of them are in two and even three leagues a week in different sports (one plays baseball Mondays, hockey Wednesdays, with our lot on Fridays). Pay $100 for the four-month season, no training, drinks afterwards. It's a company that runs this, with branches in most major cities in Canada. They seem to be making a killing while 'proper' club sports with 2x practices a week, match on Saturday is dying a slow death.

In other places, adults are more likely to play 'beer league' soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, and volleyball run by the local governing body. Flag football exists as well, but not sure if it's tied to the same people who run contact gridiron for youth? Rugby here ... governing bodies don't run non-contact for adults and where it does exist, it's a bunch of people just getting together, no league/teams. I've pitched it to the aforementioned company twice and they seem to have no interest.

[Crash669]

Video games, change in work patterns, tons more kids going off to uni after school, change in attitudes towards family, these are just some of the reasons we are seeing a drop off in player numbers after school

I have no idea how to reverse the trend

Also the percolation of "professional" training into the amateur game puts lots of people off. When you could train on a Wednesday, play on a Saturday and that was it, social rugby was much more viable. Now there are 2nd XV players being set personal weights programmes by strength and conditioning coaches with no real understanding of the risks that might be putting on amateur players.

The expectation that by aping the professional game an amateur club will become more successful seems to have the opposite result.

[Insane_Homer]

https://warriors.co.uk/2022/08/22/a-sta ... he-owners/

There has been much speculation and rumour circulating in the media and among our supporters about the future of Worcester Warriors.

Over the past week a lot of work has been done away from the media spotlight to try to navigate the club through the challenges that we currently face.

That work continues, discussions are ongoing and we are reviewing the options available to the club.

We continue to work closely with HMRC, Premiership Rugby, the RFU and DCMS to find the best solution to the situation. We are very grateful for the support these organisations have shown to the club.

We are now working through a number of options with our advisors. These include solutions for keeping rugby at Sixways and we will communicate further as soon as a decision has been finalised.

We are grateful to our staff, supporters, partners, sponsors and suppliers for their commitment, loyalty and support during what has been a difficult period for all involved in the club.

We also greatly appreciate the messages of concern and support that we have received from across the rugby world and the wider sporting community.

Colin Goldring
Jason Whittingham

[Torquemada 1420]

I'd imagine a lot of guys in their 30s & 40s found that once you stop playing it's hard to get going again. So I don't hold out hope those numbers will bounce back, suspect this is a 'new normal'. Of course once you reach this level of numbers all it takes is a few front row injuries and you can't put out a 1st XV.

Absolutely. It's hard enough getting out of bed!

[Iain(bobbity)]

I was only playing mixed ability rugby by 2020 (working for Worcester Warriors community foundation) but I couldn't see going back after the pandemic. Turned 40 last year.

[Paddington Bear]

Are rec sports on the rise there?

I play footy on Fridays with some friends and a bunch of them are in two and even three leagues a week in different sports (one plays baseball Mondays, hockey Wednesdays, with our lot on Fridays). Pay $100 for the four-month season, no training, drinks afterwards. It's a company that runs this, with branches in most major cities in Canada. They seem to be making a killing while 'proper' club sports with 2x practices a week, match on Saturday is dying a slow death.

In other places, adults are more likely to play 'beer league' soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, and volleyball run by the local governing body. Flag football exists as well, but not sure if it's tied to the same people who run contact gridiron for youth? Rugby here ... governing bodies don't run non-contact for adults and where it does exist, it's a bunch of people just getting together, no league/teams. I've pitched it to the aforementioned company twice and they seem to have no interest.

Yes 5 a side football and 8 a side evening cricket (Last Man Stands) have become more popular. Facilities provided, teams come and go etc in the manner you mention. I think beyond touch it is harder to have a rugby equivalent as playing that casually is just asking to get hurt.

[sockwithaticket]

Are rec sports on the rise there?

I play footy on Fridays with some friends and a bunch of them are in two and even three leagues a week in different sports (one plays baseball Mondays, hockey Wednesdays, with our lot on Fridays). Pay $100 for the four-month season, no training, drinks afterwards. It's a company that runs this, with branches in most major cities in Canada. They seem to be making a killing while 'proper' club sports with 2x practices a week, match on Saturday is dying a slow death.

In other places, adults are more likely to play 'beer league' soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, and volleyball run by the local governing body. Flag football exists as well, but not sure if it's tied to the same people who run contact gridiron for youth? Rugby here ... governing bodies don't run non-contact for adults and where it does exist, it's a bunch of people just getting together, no league/teams. I've pitched it to the aforementioned company twice and they seem to have no interest.

Anecdotally I know lots of people taking up long distance running, triatholons, iron man competitions or simply the gym. Essentially, solitary pursuits whose only fixed dates tend to be intermittent rather than week on week and at the weekend when they do occur. Otherwise the time commitments is a training schedule that's completely flexible and in the participants' hands which works a lot more with modern life than the weekly schedule of the 'proper' club sport as you called it.

[SaintK]

Meanwhile on Fantasy Island

The owners of the Premiership club Worcester Warriors say they are “working through a number of options” as they try to find the “best solution” to their financial predicament but their statement indicated that not all of the options include rugby remaining at Sixways.

[duke]

I will be interested to see the administrators'/liquidators' report on this regarding the land transfers and the owners' behaviour - some very odd deals going through if social media is to be believed.

[Brazil]

Are rec sports on the rise there?

I play footy on Fridays with some friends and a bunch of them are in two and even three leagues a week in different sports (one plays baseball Mondays, hockey Wednesdays, with our lot on Fridays). Pay $100 for the four-month season, no training, drinks afterwards. It's a company that runs this, with branches in most major cities in Canada. They seem to be making a killing while 'proper' club sports with 2x practices a week, match on Saturday is dying a slow death.

In other places, adults are more likely to play 'beer league' soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, and volleyball run by the local governing body. Flag football exists as well, but not sure if it's tied to the same people who run contact gridiron for youth? Rugby here ... governing bodies don't run non-contact for adults and where it does exist, it's a bunch of people just getting together, no league/teams. I've pitched it to the aforementioned company twice and they seem to have no interest.

Anecdotally I know lots of people taking up long distance running, triatholons, iron man competitions or simply the gym. Essentially, solitary pursuits whose only fixed dates tend to be intermittent rather than week on week and at the weekend when they do occur. Otherwise the time commitments is a training schedule that's completely flexible and in the participants' hands which works a lot more with modern life than the weekly schedule of the 'proper' club sport as you called it.

Yep. I discussed this with someone very senior in the RFU a few years ago when the Northern clubs went into revolt over proposals to change the league system. He made the point that people can't or won't give up their entire weekend to play rugby nowadays. I retired when we had kids because I didn't want to spend one of the two days I'd get with them each week trailing around West London, and I know mates who retired for similar reasons, particualrly playing at a higher standard where travelling to away games takes up your entire Saturday. The slow death of amateur rugby has been on the cards for some time. There were clubs going to the wall and struggling to put out teams for most of the time I was playing. There are a number of factors underlying it, most of which have been covered here, but I think dropping the unreal ambitions that a lot of clubs harbour and going back to a proper amateur game that's locally focussed would be to the benefit of the game overall. I always felt that the expansion of merit tables put too much pressure on teams and sucked the joy out of playing.

[Margin__Walker]

I've not played any proper team sport on a regular basis since school.

The discussion rings true though. I guess some of it may be related to changing relationship dynamics over the years, but there's no way post parenthood I would be able to slip away for the amount of time I'd need to.

[JM2K6]

I've not played any proper team sport on a regular basis since school.

The discussion rings true though. I guess some of it may be related to changing relationship dynamics over the years, but there's no way post parenthood I would be able to slip away for the amount of time I'd need to.

Yup, I only very irregularly played rugby post school. My team sports after that were esports Even without being a parent my life was chaotic enough in my 20s that committing to a regular thing was very difficult, and I definitely couldn't be arsed once I'd lost the athletic ability.

[Paddington Bear]

Are rec sports on the rise there?

I play footy on Fridays with some friends and a bunch of them are in two and even three leagues a week in different sports (one plays baseball Mondays, hockey Wednesdays, with our lot on Fridays). Pay $100 for the four-month season, no training, drinks afterwards. It's a company that runs this, with branches in most major cities in Canada. They seem to be making a killing while 'proper' club sports with 2x practices a week, match on Saturday is dying a slow death.

In other places, adults are more likely to play 'beer league' soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, and volleyball run by the local governing body. Flag football exists as well, but not sure if it's tied to the same people who run contact gridiron for youth? Rugby here ... governing bodies don't run non-contact for adults and where it does exist, it's a bunch of people just getting together, no league/teams. I've pitched it to the aforementioned company twice and they seem to have no interest.

Anecdotally I know lots of people taking up long distance running, triatholons, iron man competitions or simply the gym. Essentially, solitary pursuits whose only fixed dates tend to be intermittent rather than week on week and at the weekend when they do occur. Otherwise the time commitments is a training schedule that's completely flexible and in the participants' hands which works a lot more with modern life than the weekly schedule of the 'proper' club sport as you called it.

Yep. I discussed this with someone very senior in the RFU a few years ago when the Northern clubs went into revolt over proposals to change the league system. He made the point that people can't or won't give up their entire weekend to play rugby nowadays. I retired when we had kids because I didn't want to spend one of the two days I'd get with them each week trailing around West London, and I know mates who retired for similar reasons, particualrly playing at a higher standard where travelling to away games takes up your entire Saturday. The slow death of amateur rugby has been on the cards for some time. There were clubs going to the wall and struggling to put out teams for most of the time I was playing. There are a number of factors underlying it, most of which have been covered here, but I think dropping the unreal ambitions that a lot of clubs harbour and going back to a proper amateur game that's locally focussed would be to the benefit of the game overall. I always felt that the expansion of merit tables put too much pressure on teams and sucked the joy out of playing.

Something that struck me recently was that my entire childhood was spent playing on the touchline/round the boundary and I almost never had an issue finding other kids to play with at the club. Now it's pretty rare to see any kids at all at local league sports, which is instructive. This has a few impacts:
1) Clubs see a greater 'churn' of players. Where someone might have previously given a club ten years they're giving them 5, so the natural cycle of replacement is completely buggered.
2) People are giving up playing before they reach the natural point where they might volunteer
3) Fewer kids are growing up in an environment where playing club sport every week is just a natural part of life, reducing the amount of people who will do so in 10-20 years time.
4) It's easier to justify playing once you have kids if the kids actively enjoy being there. If they don't have anyone to play with they're bored as hell, moan about it etc etc.

[Mahoney]

Cricket, people disappear when they have kids and may return when the kids are 12+ (particularly if they can play with their kids). My boys are 14 & 15, and this is the first year I've felt it's OK to play once a week rather than once a fortnight; but I'm a lot more comfortable playing cricket aged 45+ than I would be playing rugby.

[Kawazaki]

Are rec sports on the rise there?

I play footy on Fridays with some friends and a bunch of them are in two and even three leagues a week in different sports (one plays baseball Mondays, hockey Wednesdays, with our lot on Fridays). Pay $100 for the four-month season, no training, drinks afterwards. It's a company that runs this, with branches in most major cities in Canada. They seem to be making a killing while 'proper' club sports with 2x practices a week, match on Saturday is dying a slow death.

In other places, adults are more likely to play 'beer league' soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, and volleyball run by the local governing body. Flag football exists as well, but not sure if it's tied to the same people who run contact gridiron for youth? Rugby here ... governing bodies don't run non-contact for adults and where it does exist, it's a bunch of people just getting together, no league/teams. I've pitched it to the aforementioned company twice and they seem to have no interest.

Anecdotally I know lots of people taking up long distance running, triatholons, iron man competitions or simply the gym. Essentially, solitary pursuits whose only fixed dates tend to be intermittent rather than week on week and at the weekend when they do occur. Otherwise the time commitments is a training schedule that's completely flexible and in the participants' hands which works a lot more with modern life than the weekly schedule of the 'proper' club sport as you called it.

Yep. I discussed this with someone very senior in the RFU a few years ago when the Northern clubs went into revolt over proposals to change the league system. He made the point that people can't or won't give up their entire weekend to play rugby nowadays. I retired when we had kids because I didn't want to spend one of the two days I'd get with them each week trailing around West London, and I know mates who retired for similar reasons, particualrly playing at a higher standard where travelling to away games takes up your entire Saturday. The slow death of amateur rugby has been on the cards for some time. There were clubs going to the wall and struggling to put out teams for most of the time I was playing. There are a number of factors underlying it, most of which have been covered here, but I think dropping the unreal ambitions that a lot of clubs harbour and going back to a proper amateur game that's locally focussed would be to the benefit of the game overall. I always felt that the expansion of merit tables put too much pressure on teams and sucked the joy out of playing.

Agree with this. The county cups were always a big highlight of the old amateur era. That would be a good place to start to try to invigorate local competition.

[SaintK]

Yep. I discussed this with someone very senior in the RFU a few years ago when the Northern clubs went into revolt over proposals to change the league system. He made the point that people can't or won't give up their entire weekend to play rugby nowadays. I retired when we had kids because I didn't want to spend one of the two days I'd get with them each week trailing around West London, and I know mates who retired for similar reasons, particualrly playing at a higher standard where travelling to away games takes up your entire Saturday. The slow death of amateur rugby has been on the cards for some time. There were clubs going to the wall and struggling to put out teams for most of the time I was playing. There are a number of factors underlying it, most of which have been covered here, but I think dropping the unreal ambitions that a lot of clubs harbour and going back to a proper amateur game that's locally focussed would be to the benefit of the game overall. I always felt that the expansion of merit tables put too much pressure on teams and sucked the joy out of playing.

I honestly believe that the RFU just doesn't listen to the community game anymore.
They promised that the reorganisation of the leagues in London SE would result in less travelling and more "local derbies". However my club (and others locally) find themselves playing each other less and now having to travel to outer reaches of W and SW London!!
Also the RFU arbitrarily bought forward the start of league rugby to 3rd September which is still in school holidays here, so that they can fit in a new cup competition that nobody appears to want at the end of the season.
It now looks as if that the league start will be pushed back due to the condition of of pitches because of the weather. My club and several others I know well will not be entering the cup competition come what may!

[JM2K6]

Cricket, people disappear when they have kids and may return when the kids are 12+ (particularly if they can play with their kids). My boys are 14 & 15, and this is the first year I've felt it's OK to play once a week rather than once a fortnight; but I'm a lot more comfortable playing cricket aged 45+ than I would be playing rugby.

I absolutely would consider playing cricket again. Rugby would murder me.

[Paddington Bear]

Anecdotally I know lots of people taking up long distance running, triatholons, iron man competitions or simply the gym. Essentially, solitary pursuits whose only fixed dates tend to be intermittent rather than week on week and at the weekend when they do occur. Otherwise the time commitments is a training schedule that's completely flexible and in the participants' hands which works a lot more with modern life than the weekly schedule of the 'proper' club sport as you called it.

Yep. I discussed this with someone very senior in the RFU a few years ago when the Northern clubs went into revolt over proposals to change the league system. He made the point that people can't or won't give up their entire weekend to play rugby nowadays. I retired when we had kids because I didn't want to spend one of the two days I'd get with them each week trailing around West London, and I know mates who retired for similar reasons, particualrly playing at a higher standard where travelling to away games takes up your entire Saturday. The slow death of amateur rugby has been on the cards for some time. There were clubs going to the wall and struggling to put out teams for most of the time I was playing. There are a number of factors underlying it, most of which have been covered here, but I think dropping the unreal ambitions that a lot of clubs harbour and going back to a proper amateur game that's locally focussed would be to the benefit of the game overall. I always felt that the expansion of merit tables put too much pressure on teams and sucked the joy out of playing.

Agree with this. The county cups were always a big highlight of the old amateur era. That would be a good place to start to try to invigorate local competition.

As SaintK has alluded to - most clubs now really don't care about the cup comps. Not sure why but raising cup sides is exceptionally hard work

[TheMalteser]

Yes, I think my club has bailed on the cup competition already. I understand what they’re trying to do, but no-one cares for it at the end of the season!

I think the point around kids is key. I play for a team in Earlsfirld which is always going to be pre-disposed towards young men, but wherever we travel there are literally no kids and, as such, my two really don’t like the idea of spending two hours on the sideline. Now I’ve moved down the league, the travel etc is fine, but it no longer seems to be that family a game. The teams that do it well make sure there mini sections are involved in game day IMO.

[TheMalteser]

Also, these Worcester owners are obviously a couple pair of cowboys, even based on a quick Google. Does the RFU not have any form of vetting? What were Worcester thinking?? Feel gutted for the fans, as they’re about to completely shafted.

[Torquemada 1420]

Cricket, people disappear when they have kids and may return when the kids are 12+ (particularly if they can play with their kids). My boys are 14 & 15, and this is the first year I've felt it's OK to play once a week rather than once a fortnight; but I'm a lot more comfortable playing cricket aged 45+ than I would be playing rugby.

I absolutely would consider playing cricket again. Rugby would murder me.

Literally. When I was early 30s, someone suggested I come and play vets. I commented that I would rather go and play 1sts proper (of course I was never good enough anyway) because although young blokes tackle hard(er), their timing and abilities are that much better. In vets, you are more likely to get some 18 stone hippo thinking he is Brian Lima the 2nd who actually gets timing and position all wrong, resulting in oneself either being decapitated or facing knee reconstruction.

{EDIT} Think Tae............

I'll stick to rowing and climbing!

[JM2K6]

Also, these Worcester owners are obviously a couple pair of cowboys, even based on a quick Google. Does the RFU not have any form of vetting? What were Worcester thinking?? Feel gutted for the fans, as they’re about to completely shafted.

Finding buyers for Premiership clubs is not easy. Maybe easier right now post-CVC involvement, but after the Duckworths bankrolled the club for so long, the choice essentially boiled down to "whoever was willing to take on board the costs". Naive perhaps.

[npradmin]

Are rec sports on the rise there?

I play footy on Fridays with some friends and a bunch of them are in two and even three leagues a week in different sports (one plays baseball Mondays, hockey Wednesdays, with our lot on Fridays). Pay $100 for the four-month season, no training, drinks afterwards. It's a company that runs this, with branches in most major cities in Canada. They seem to be making a killing while 'proper' club sports with 2x practices a week, match on Saturday is dying a slow death.

In other places, adults are more likely to play 'beer league' soccer, hockey, baseball, basketball, and volleyball run by the local governing body. Flag football exists as well, but not sure if it's tied to the same people who run contact gridiron for youth? Rugby here ... governing bodies don't run non-contact for adults and where it does exist, it's a bunch of people just getting together, no league/teams. I've pitched it to the aforementioned company twice and they seem to have no interest.

Anecdotally I know lots of people taking up long distance running, triatholons, iron man competitions or simply the gym. Essentially, solitary pursuits whose only fixed dates tend to be intermittent rather than week on week and at the weekend when they do occur. Otherwise the time commitments is a training schedule that's completely flexible and in the participants' hands which works a lot more with modern life than the weekly schedule of the 'proper' club sport as you called it.

Yep. I discussed this with someone very senior in the RFU a few years ago when the Northern clubs went into revolt over proposals to change the league system. He made the point that people can't or won't give up their entire weekend to play rugby nowadays. I retired when we had kids because I didn't want to spend one of the two days I'd get with them each week trailing around West London, and I know mates who retired for similar reasons, particualrly playing at a higher standard where travelling to away games takes up your entire Saturday. The slow death of amateur rugby has been on the cards for some time. There were clubs going to the wall and struggling to put out teams for most of the time I was playing. There are a number of factors underlying it, most of which have been covered here, but I think dropping the unreal ambitions that a lot of clubs harbour and going back to a proper amateur game that's locally focussed would be to the benefit of the game overall. I always felt that the expansion of merit tables put too much pressure on teams and sucked the joy out of playing.

Very much this, merit tables I think killed grass roots teams. We were happy playing the same teams year in year out. No pressure, just enjoy the day, sometimes you got a kicking (Rosslyn Park 2's with Andy Ripley coming back from injury), sometimes you handed the kicking out, but nobody cared.

[Raggs]

Whilst we can't quite just play really local teams, I'd also be more than happy to play the same teams over and again.

Maybe have 1st teams in the little league system, but all 2s teams just play local sides only etc.

Though i guess those clubs that had/have 4th teams don't love the idea of that.

[Big D]

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

I don't think it is professionalism, I think it is a combination of things. Certainly in Scotland anyway.

I know Tichtheid covered some of these. In no particular order:
1. Lack of rugby in schools. Fewer kids are being exposed to trying rugby at primary school and there are fewer schools teams. Teachers have far more on their plates than before and there are no random English, computing, science etc teachers taking rugby at school and PE teachers aren't teaching it during PE.
2. Player retention from junior rugby to senior rugby. Players moving to Uni's, starting weekend work, socialising etc.
3. Asking players, certainly in the Caley region to travel daft distances for an 80min run about.
4. Societal change. Many time in many clubs I have heard conversations about players missing games due to "modern" issues like child care with the old "back in my day I left the kids with the wife..."
5. Work. More people need to work on Saturday, and some of the leagues require quite a bit of travel.
6. More sports are accessible to kids these days.
7. The need for 15 players (+subs) to put out a team.
8. The fact that it is a physically demanding sport. How many of us still carry aches and pains from when we played?

The headlines around concussion etc will not be helping either, even though they are merited headlines.

[Kawazaki]

Cricket, people disappear when they have kids and may return when the kids are 12+ (particularly if they can play with their kids). My boys are 14 & 15, and this is the first year I've felt it's OK to play once a week rather than once a fortnight; but I'm a lot more comfortable playing cricket aged 45+ than I would be playing rugby.

I absolutely would consider playing cricket again. Rugby would murder me.

Literally. When I was early 30s, someone suggested I come and play vets. I commented that I would rather go and play 1sts proper (of course I was never good enough anyway) because although young blokes tackle hard(er), their timing and abilities are that much better. In vets, you are more likely to get some 18 stone hippo thinking he is Brian Lima the 2nd who actually gets timing and position all wrong, resulting in oneself either being decapitated or facing knee reconstruction.

{EDIT} Think Tae............

I'll stick to rowing and climbing!

Vets rugby isn't like that at all.

[sockwithaticket]

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

I don't think it is professionalism, I think it is a combination of things. Certainly in Scotland anyway.

I know Tichtheid covered some of these. In no particular order:
1. Lack of rugby in schools. Fewer kids are being exposed to trying rugby at primary school and there are fewer schools teams. Teachers have far more on their plates than before and there are no random English, computing, science etc teachers taking rugby at school and PE teachers aren't teaching it during PE.

Honestly, while it might not be great for exposure I don't wholly see this as a bad thing.

Admittedly I taught in England rather than Scotland, but scheduling rugby in PE at mixed secondaries is a pain in the hole. Given that you have to split up the boys and girls unless you only want to do touch, you need the whole year to be taking it together.

That's even before you consider whether you should be forcing kids to play a sport like rugby. Apart from safety concerns, I'm not entirely sure it encourages more to take it up than are permanently discouraged or embittered by their experience.

Enthusiastic teachers with little in the way of coaching qualification or expertise can also do more harm than good.

[Big D]

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

I don't think it is professionalism, I think it is a combination of things. Certainly in Scotland anyway.

I know Tichtheid covered some of these. In no particular order:
1. Lack of rugby in schools. Fewer kids are being exposed to trying rugby at primary school and there are fewer schools teams. Teachers have far more on their plates than before and there are no random English, computing, science etc teachers taking rugby at school and PE teachers aren't teaching it during PE.

Honestly, while it might not be great for exposure I don't wholly see this as a bad thing.

Admittedly I taught in England rather than Scotland, but scheduling rugby in PE at mixed secondaries is a pain in the hole. Given that you have to split up the boys and girls unless you only want to do touch, you need the whole year to be taking it together.

That's even before you consider whether you should be forcing kids to play a sport like rugby. Apart from safety concerns, I'm not entirely sure it encourages more to take it up than are permanently discouraged or embittered by their experience.

Enthusiastic teachers with little in the way of coaching qualification or expertise can also do more harm than good.

That's a fair point about PE and I wouldn't expect it to be part of the curriculum, just noted it as one of the reasons players may not take it up.

On the last point, I would hope that the enthusiastic teachers would opt to go through the UKCC level 1+2 coaching these days. It shouldn't be that difficult to arrange coach training these days.

[Paddington Bear]

That's not good to hear. It was only a couple of years ago that they were running a 3rd's and a massive vets team. I was speaking to a guy from Musselburgh RC yesterday and he was saying they now have a 2nd's and a 3rd that plays occasionally, jointly, with another local club. This is a Prem team. Also saw a thing a couple of weeks ago about the numbers in NZ being massively down. It's worldwide and I'm convinced it's the slow death of rugby, thanks to idiotic professionalism.

I don't think it is professionalism, I think it is a combination of things. Certainly in Scotland anyway.

I know Tichtheid covered some of these. In no particular order:
1. Lack of rugby in schools. Fewer kids are being exposed to trying rugby at primary school and there are fewer schools teams. Teachers have far more on their plates than before and there are no random English, computing, science etc teachers taking rugby at school and PE teachers aren't teaching it during PE.

Honestly, while it might not be great for exposure I don't wholly see this as a bad thing.

Admittedly I taught in England rather than Scotland, but scheduling rugby in PE at mixed secondaries is a pain in the hole. Given that you have to split up the boys and girls unless you only want to do touch, you need the whole year to be taking it together.

That's even before you consider whether you should be forcing kids to play a sport like rugby. Apart from safety concerns, I'm not entirely sure it encourages more to take it up than are permanently discouraged or embittered by their experience.

Enthusiastic teachers with little in the way of coaching qualification or expertise can also do more harm than good.

I get the point, but for a minority sport like rugby having an extra x amount of people who have played and either love or like the sport in return for y who have now played and hate it is probably a better return than both x an y never coming across the sport and being indifferent to it.

[SaintK]

Players and staff from Worcester Warriors staged a public display of unity as hope of a new buyer emerged on a dramatic day in the club’s fight for survival.

Jim O’Toole, the former chief executive of Worcester, revealed that he has been asked to lead a consortium comprising American money and local businesspeople to acquire Warriors from Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham and ensure the club's “long-term” sustainability.

Atlas SportsTech, a medical data company founded by James Sandford, the former Ireland Under-20 and London Irish lock, is understood to be involved in the consortium assembled by O’Toole.

But what about all the debt?

[Sards]

Cricket, people disappear when they have kids and may return when the kids are 12+ (particularly if they can play with their kids). My boys are 14 & 15, and this is the first year I've felt it's OK to play once a week rather than once a fortnight; but I'm a lot more comfortable playing cricket aged 45+ than I would be playing rugby.

My 2 boys are 14 and 9. My wife and I split it for the kids. That is probably because they play school and club cricket.
So 3 practices during the week , one club and 2 school and possibly a game , then one evening of one on one coaching in the nets to fix problems with bowling and batting and then a game on a Saturday. So where would I ever find time for myself if I was fit enough. We have resigned ourselves to the fact that we live our sport through the kids.
In the winter it's hockey but that's just school. So we get a break there

[Paddington Bear]

Cricket, people disappear when they have kids and may return when the kids are 12+ (particularly if they can play with their kids). My boys are 14 & 15, and this is the first year I've felt it's OK to play once a week rather than once a fortnight; but I'm a lot more comfortable playing cricket aged 45+ than I would be playing rugby.

My 2 boys are 14 and 9. My wife and I split it for the kids. That is probably because they play school and club cricket.
So 3 practices during the week , one club and 2 school and possibly a game , then one evening of one on one coaching in the nets to fix problems with bowling and batting and then a game on a Saturday. So where would I ever find time for myself if I was fit enough. We have resigned ourselves to the fact that we live our sport through the kids.
In the winter it's hockey but that's just school. So we get a break there

My club has a significant number of players in Mahoney’s position. Kid turns 13, enjoys playing men’s cricket, Dad plans a comeback and often 10/15 years later both are still playing.

[Sards]

My club has a significant number of players in Mahoney’s position. Kid turns 13, enjoys playing men’s cricket, Dad plans a comeback and often 10/15 years later both are still playing.

I am just the taxi and part of the crowd. At 59 I am in no way able to play without getting some injury. Although I love beach cricket. That's still fun.

[Torquemada 1420]

Players and staff from Worcester Warriors staged a public display of unity as hope of a new buyer emerged on a dramatic day in the club’s fight for survival.

Jim O’Toole, the former chief executive of Worcester, revealed that he has been asked to lead a consortium comprising American money and local businesspeople to acquire Warriors from Colin Goldring and Jason Whittingham and ensure the club's “long-term” sustainability.

Atlas SportsTech, a medical data company founded by James Sandford, the former Ireland Under-20 and London Irish lock, is understood to be involved in the consortium assembled by O’Toole.

But what about all the debt?

The club will be liquidated, what remaining assets sold for £1 and the creditors will be left clutching at straws.

[Torquemada 1420]

Cricket, people disappear when they have kids and may return when the kids are 12+ (particularly if they can play with their kids). My boys are 14 & 15, and this is the first year I've felt it's OK to play once a week rather than once a fortnight; but I'm a lot more comfortable playing cricket aged 45+ than I would be playing rugby.

My 2 boys are 14 and 9. My wife and I split it for the kids. That is probably because they play school and club cricket.
So 3 practices during the week , one club and 2 school and possibly a game , then one evening of one on one coaching in the nets to fix problems with bowling and batting and then a game on a Saturday. So where would I ever find time for myself if I was fit enough. We have resigned ourselves to the fact that we live our sport through the kids.
In the winter it's hockey but that's just school. So we get a break there

Pretty much identical to my PA. Ergo she and her husband have no time for participative sports themselves.