UK Home energy prices

[GogLais]

Yeah whatever the government say there are definitely going to be blackouts this winter, the only question is how bad will they be

I really do not understand why nobody is campaigning now for lower energy use. As you've said people are voluntarily (many won't be voluntarily just can't pay) going to try and reduce consumption. How about a national campaign?

Especially as covid has shown that people in the UK are more likely to overreact than underreact and don't actually care about govt intervening.

UK has pretty low electricity use compared to France/Germany.

Off the top of my head, the very rough power figures are France 2X UK usage/ Germany 3X UK usage

I wonder if more manufacturing in those countries has a significant effect.

[GogLais]

Because Health and Safety Executive states employers are legally obliged to keep the indoor temperature comfortable.

Obviously this could go on the Bonfire of red tape

maybe we can use this bonfire to warm houses

There’s probably an “as far as reasonably practicable” in there somewhere.

[Biffer]

This is at the heart of the coming storm in the UK

https://ifamagazine.com/article/ons-rep ... -770-1611/

[fishfoodie]

Because Health and Safety Executive states employers are legally obliged to keep the indoor temperature comfortable.

Obviously this could go on the Bonfire of red tape

maybe we can use this bonfire to warm houses

There’s probably an “as far as reasonably practicable” in there somewhere.

For Schools in Ireland, the teaching unions got a figure like 20/21C into the T&Cs; which was why the boiler room was a target of the pupils during the winter

It went from a wooden door, to a wooden door with padlocks, to a steel door in a steel frame, with padlocks, in my time in secondary school

[I like neeps]

The bankruptcies we'll see is a huge issue. What is incredibly stupid is the line of thought energy companies will add costs for commercial customers to make up for the profit lost by the government bailing out households. A very odd logic, bankrupt your customers to achieve profit? What happens next year. The speccie is stupid.

[SaintK]

How many households will sink below the poverty line if this happens?

Energy consultancy Auxilione said that at today's prices the cap might rise to £4,722 in January before hitting £5,601 in April.

[I like neeps]

How many households will sink below the poverty line if this happens?

Energy consultancy Auxilione said that at today's prices the cap might rise to £4,722 in January before hitting £5,601 in April.

It's becoming more and more likely Europe will start dropping sanctions on Russia. There's no way Europe wide economies can survive this. The home energy cost rises are dwarfed by costs to industry. Europe's economies just can't survive at these levels of energy cost.

[petej]

How many households will sink below the poverty line if this happens?

Energy consultancy Auxilione said that at today's prices the cap might rise to £4,722 in January before hitting £5,601 in April.

It's becoming more and more likely Europe will start dropping sanctions on Russia. There's no way Europe wide economies can survive this. The home energy cost rises are dwarfed by costs to industry. Europe's economies just can't survive at these levels of energy cost.

Why are europe is in a worse position than us? They have more storage and they have less inflation as no brexit. If the dumb brexit nationalists realise that more uk oil and gas is being exported this year as the companies sell it to highest bidder.

[salanya]

I don't know the situation across the whole of Europe, but the Netherlands reported a higher than expected growth in the economy this week for the second quarter of the year.

There are definitely price rises everywhere, but the combination of Brexit (and ignoring its impact) and the uselessness of the current Tory government means the situation is looking worse in the UK from what I can see.

This price cap is getting ridiculous as well. Each week another £500 is added to the projection, now they're talking around £5k+ for energy for the year. Many people are on an annual income of £20k-£30k - that would mean around 20-25% of your wages go on energy.

Add to that another £6k+ on rent/mortgage (and that's being very conservative), and you may have less than £10k in the year for food, council tax, childcare/school costs, petrol/travel, insurance, broadband etc. I would like to see the current cabinet ministers make that work.
And just to point out: those are not even the poorest in society, but a good percentage of the working classes.

[Paddington Bear]

Uniper on the brink of insolvency. Terrible for Germany

[shaggy]

How many households will sink below the poverty line if this happens?

It's becoming more and more likely Europe will start dropping sanctions on Russia. There's no way Europe wide economies can survive this. The home energy cost rises are dwarfed by costs to industry. Europe's economies just can't survive at these levels of energy cost.

Why are europe is in a worse position than us? They have more storage and they have less inflation as no brexit. If the dumb brexit nationalists realise that more uk oil and gas is being exported this year as the companies sell it to highest bidder.

Not sure the inflation statement is true. Sky news yesterday had Belgium, Spain, Netherlands and Ireland higher than the UK (9.4). Before todays figures of course.

[petej]

Uniper on the brink of insolvency. Terrible for Germany

I know people who worked for eon. At the point of splitting they put pretty much all the renewable generation in eon (aka good eon) and all the legacy fossil fuel generation and nuclear went into uniper (bad eon). With Germany shutting down nuclear and everybody trying to move away from fossil fuels I would say uniper was buggered from the day it was created.

People should separate oil and gas producers from those operating generation assets. As the former are raking it in and the latter are mostly struggling.

[I like neeps]

How many households will sink below the poverty line if this happens?

It's becoming more and more likely Europe will start dropping sanctions on Russia. There's no way Europe wide economies can survive this. The home energy cost rises are dwarfed by costs to industry. Europe's economies just can't survive at these levels of energy cost.

Why are europe is in a worse position than us? They have more storage and they have less inflation as no brexit. If the dumb brexit nationalists realise that more uk oil and gas is being exported this year as the companies sell it to highest bidder.

They are in just as bad a position as us. Sure they are filling their storage capacity but filling it at record costs which will be passed on to households and businesses. And they still need fuel this winter it can't all come from storage. Europe is also f*cked. Will be a continent wide nasty nasty recession.

Not that Brexit doesn't make this worse - it does. But you're in cuckoo land if you think Europe can absorb the energy costs. They can't.

I do find it quite hard to believe governments across Europe are not staring into the abyss here. A bit of inflation and interest rates killing zombie businesses etc okay. But viable business and above average income homes going into energy poverty oh dear. The economy runs on energy - unaffordable energy costs and you have no economy.

[Glaston]

Uniper on the brink of insolvency. Terrible for Germany

Came across this yesterday of prices from 2020, didn't know the Germans were already paying the highest prices for electricity.
Wonder how high its going to get?

https://strom-report.de/electricity-prices-europe/

[Raggs]

State owned electricity companies etc don't need to make billions of profit in their country though. And the state owned ones in other countries (I think France? owns a ton of Britains offshore wind) can still make a tidy profit to send back home to help out their own.

[Paddington Bear]

State owned electricity companies etc don't need to make billions of profit in their country though. And the state owned ones in other countries (I think France? owns a ton of Britains offshore wind) can still make a tidy profit to send back home to help out their own.

To an extent. Plenty of state owned firms have lost money running rail contracts in Britain.

[tabascoboy]

You have to be really alert to find fixed rate tariffs with some suppliers, look at my supplier's offerings quickly three days ago, went back today to do some math only to find "no fixed rate tariffs at this time". Don't think it would have been worthwhile anyway at this time but does make you wonder if you could miss out on a deal - and for those without internet access it must be very disadvantageous.

Checked out Octopus and the unit rates were outrageous. And this being electricity supposedly 100% renewables which surely shouldn't be affected by wholesale gas prices? I know that at times wind generated power is reduced due to calm conditions but if supply has to be supplemented with non-renewable from the grid then it shouldn't be marketed as 100% renewables, surely - merely as an aim?

[petej]

State owned electricity companies etc don't need to make billions of profit in their country though. And the state owned ones in other countries (I think France? owns a ton of Britains offshore wind) can still make a tidy profit to send back home to help out their own.

EDF, Eon and RWE all have some. SSE have quite a lot. We currently have approx 12GW off shore capacity with 18GW planned but hoping to get a further 20GW planned and built in this decade to reach 50GW capacity.

I surprised there isn't more of a government drive to encourage solar and batteries particularly trying to nudge and encourage the older and/or better off demographics (maybe some patriotic uk energy self-sufficiency). Any lowering of grid demand is a plus.

[Raggs]

We're moving other projects to the back burners in order to get solar and a battery. It's something we wanted regardless, the current price inflation just drives it's urgency.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

You have to be really alert to find fixed rate tariffs with some suppliers, look at my supplier's offerings quickly three days ago, went back today to do some math only to find "no fixed rate tariffs at this time". Don't think it would have been worthwhile anyway at this time but does make you wonder if you could miss out on a deal - and for those without internet access it must be very disadvantageous.

Checked out Octopus and the unit rates were outrageous. And this being electricity supposedly 100% renewables which surely shouldn't be affected by wholesale gas prices? I know that at times wind generated power is reduced due to calm conditions but if supply has to be supplemented with non-renewable from the grid then it shouldn't be marketed as 100% renewables, surely - merely as an aim?

Renewables includes biomass, burnt in power stations. That will be in high demand and therefore high prices.

[I like neeps]

You have to be really alert to find fixed rate tariffs with some suppliers, look at my supplier's offerings quickly three days ago, went back today to do some math only to find "no fixed rate tariffs at this time". Don't think it would have been worthwhile anyway at this time but does make you wonder if you could miss out on a deal - and for those without internet access it must be very disadvantageous.

Checked out Octopus and the unit rates were outrageous. And this being electricity supposedly 100% renewables which surely shouldn't be affected by wholesale gas prices? I know that at times wind generated power is reduced due to calm conditions but if supply has to be supplemented with non-renewable from the grid then it shouldn't be marketed as 100% renewables, surely - merely as an aim?

Price of wind (and other renewables) depends on price of gas:

An energy market that is fit for the last century. According to Prof Helm, the energy market does not function as it should as more energy is produced by renewables, which are intermittent by their nature. The overall energy price is dictated by the “last unit coming onto market, which is gas”, he said. So while the cost of wind, the cost of nuclear and the cost of solar have not changed, the entire market is getting a price based on gas. It means some energy providers that are generating electricity without the use of gas are making an awful lot of money as they can charge higher prices.

[tabascoboy]

You have to be really alert to find fixed rate tariffs with some suppliers, look at my supplier's offerings quickly three days ago, went back today to do some math only to find "no fixed rate tariffs at this time". Don't think it would have been worthwhile anyway at this time but does make you wonder if you could miss out on a deal - and for those without internet access it must be very disadvantageous.

Checked out Octopus and the unit rates were outrageous. And this being electricity supposedly 100% renewables which surely shouldn't be affected by wholesale gas prices? I know that at times wind generated power is reduced due to calm conditions but if supply has to be supplemented with non-renewable from the grid then it shouldn't be marketed as 100% renewables, surely - merely as an aim?

Renewables includes biomass, burnt in power stations. That will be in high demand and therefore high prices.

I see, personally I wouldn't call anything you burn as "renewable", was rather thinking wind, hydroelectric, tidal but I guess they would be considered "green" instead...

[petej]

You have to be really alert to find fixed rate tariffs with some suppliers, look at my supplier's offerings quickly three days ago, went back today to do some math only to find "no fixed rate tariffs at this time". Don't think it would have been worthwhile anyway at this time but does make you wonder if you could miss out on a deal - and for those without internet access it must be very disadvantageous.

Checked out Octopus and the unit rates were outrageous. And this being electricity supposedly 100% renewables which surely shouldn't be affected by wholesale gas prices? I know that at times wind generated power is reduced due to calm conditions but if supply has to be supplemented with non-renewable from the grid then it shouldn't be marketed as 100% renewables, surely - merely as an aim?

Renewables includes biomass, burnt in power stations. That will be in high demand and therefore high prices.

I see, personally I wouldn't call anything you burn as "renewable", was rather thinking wind, hydroelectric, tidal but I guess they would be considered "green" instead...

The fact that Drax is "green" takes the piss. Shipping wood over from Canada or wherever that you then have to process/dry etc.. before burning is not green.

[weegie01]

You have to be really alert to find fixed rate tariffs with some suppliers, look at my supplier's offerings quickly three days ago, went back today to do some math only to find "no fixed rate tariffs at this time". Don't think it would have been worthwhile anyway at this time but does make you wonder if you could miss out on a deal - and for those without internet access it must be very disadvantageous.

Checked out Octopus and the unit rates were outrageous. And this being electricity supposedly 100% renewables which surely shouldn't be affected by wholesale gas prices? I know that at times wind generated power is reduced due to calm conditions but if supply has to be supplemented with non-renewable from the grid then it shouldn't be marketed as 100% renewables, surely - merely as an aim?

Renewables includes biomass, burnt in power stations. That will be in high demand and therefore high prices.

Tell me about it.

We have wood pellet heating. We get two five ton loads annually. The last load we had delivered was up by over 20%. Apparently the next will be more. I do have the option of running the three wood burners in the house (nominal total 22kw) a bit harder to reduce pellet consumption and have plenty of wood stored to do so. .

We live near a couple of massive, multi dam hydro scheme. We have not had the drought England has and only the burns that go dry every summer have done so. But the hydro dams are very low as they are being run hard. At the current rate it will not be long till they have to switch them off to refill.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

You have to be really alert to find fixed rate tariffs with some suppliers, look at my supplier's offerings quickly three days ago, went back today to do some math only to find "no fixed rate tariffs at this time". Don't think it would have been worthwhile anyway at this time but does make you wonder if you could miss out on a deal - and for those without internet access it must be very disadvantageous.

Checked out Octopus and the unit rates were outrageous. And this being electricity supposedly 100% renewables which surely shouldn't be affected by wholesale gas prices? I know that at times wind generated power is reduced due to calm conditions but if supply has to be supplemented with non-renewable from the grid then it shouldn't be marketed as 100% renewables, surely - merely as an aim?

Renewables includes biomass, burnt in power stations. That will be in high demand and therefore high prices.

I see, personally I wouldn't call anything you burn as "renewable", was rather thinking wind, hydroelectric, tidal but I guess they would be considered "green" instead...

At industrial scale it's mostly leftovers from forestry and agriculture. you burn it, you grow more. That's pretty renewable.

My cousin has a biogas plant on his farm. That takes animal waste and crops and the gas is sold to a power station. It's a pretty efficient use of resources.

[weegie01]

At industrial scale it's mostly leftovers from forestry and agriculture. you burn it, you grow more. That's pretty renewable.

My cousin has a biogas plant on his farm. That takes animal waste and crops and the gas is sold to a power station. It's a pretty efficient use of resources.

The problem with the 'grow more' bit is that the trees that were felled took decades to grow. Burning them will release all that carbon in one go and it will take decades for the replanting to reabsorb it.

I am surprised at how much waste wood is left behind in many forests after felling. If left to rot, waste wood releases as much carbon as if burnt. Last year A W Jenkinson brought in some hefty machines to a clear felled forest near us and cleared up all the waste. Given the size and cost of these machines there is probably a quite big minimum size that is worth doing, but it still seems to happen less than I'd expect.

[TB63]

Some farmers turned to planting willow as a biomass crop, harvest in 3 years on a cycle..

[fishfoodie]

Some farmers turned to planting willow as a biomass crop, harvest in 3 years on a cycle..

I've got 3-4 decent size ashes, & they're all obviously suffering with die back, so I think they're for the chop this winter, I saw an article awhile back, that they thought there were 30,000+ in a National Park in the UK that would have to be felled, before they became dangerous.

[Hal Jordan]

State owned electricity companies etc don't need to make billions of profit in their country though. And the state owned ones in other countries (I think France? owns a ton of Britains offshore wind) can still make a tidy profit to send back home to help out their own.

EDF, Eon and RWE all have some. SSE have quite a lot. We currently have approx 12GW off shore capacity with 18GW planned but hoping to get a further 20GW planned and built in this decade to reach 50GW capacity.

I surprised there isn't more of a government drive to encourage solar and batteries particularly trying to nudge and encourage the older and/or better off demographics (maybe some patriotic uk energy self-sufficiency). Any lowering of grid demand is a plus.

I'm not. How can corporate socialism continue if people aren't bound hand and foot to the grid?

[I like neeps]

The UK government spox saying yesterday households don't need to cut back on energy. They DO because of the cost of it. It's such nonsense ideology. (a) everyone is cutting back anyway due to the cost and (b) people easily would club together as with covid. It's just incredibly frustrating.

[fishfoodie]

The UK government spox saying yesterday households don't need to cut back on energy. They DO because of the cost of it. It's such nonsense ideology. (a) everyone is cutting back anyway due to the cost and (b) people easily would club together as with covid. It's just incredibly frustrating.

They should just go full bore, & give families free LED / CFL lights, & draft excluders, & other simple & cheap energy reduction fixes; & then have a ten year strategy of insulating the shit out of houses.

For this winter, all of Europe needs to learn lessons from Countries that deal with severe cold every year, & reduce the energy requirements across the board.

One of my Aunts was from North Dakota, & when she & my Uncle retired to Ireland, to a damp & cold house in Galway, one of the first things they did was staple a sheet of plastic inside all the windows (as they do in ND), to reduce the heat leakage. I know the conventional wisdom is that this will cause mold, & CO could be a problem, but the reality was the CO source was in a shed with a gale blowing thru it, & the leakage from all the places they couldn't plug, & a CO alarm meant they never saw the doomsday predictions.

There are a lot of simple solutions that can combine to save 1-2% of national energy requirements, without any serious work, but someone needs to put them together & publish them, before the schools are back !

[mos_eisely_]

Seems like the media is starting to wake up to the impact that the energy prices are having on businesses

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... costs-soar

[I like neeps]

The UK government spox saying yesterday households don't need to cut back on energy. They DO because of the cost of it. It's such nonsense ideology. (a) everyone is cutting back anyway due to the cost and (b) people easily would club together as with covid. It's just incredibly frustrating.

They should just go full bore, & give families free LED / CFL lights, & draft excluders, & other simple & cheap energy reduction fixes; & then have a ten year strategy of insulating the shit out of houses.

For this winter, all of Europe needs to learn lessons from Countries that deal with severe cold every year, & reduce the energy requirements across the board.

One of my Aunts was from North Dakota, & when she & my Uncle retired to Ireland, to a damp & cold house in Galway, one of the first things they did was staple a sheet of plastic inside all the windows (as they do in ND), to reduce the heat leakage. I know the conventional wisdom is that this will cause mold, & CO could be a problem, but the reality was the CO source was in a shed with a gale blowing thru it, & the leakage from all the places they couldn't plug, & a CO alarm meant they never saw the doomsday predictions.

There are a lot of simple solutions that can combine to save 1-2% of national energy requirements, without any serious work, but someone needs to put them together & publish them, before the schools are back !

The UK has reduction templates from every country in Europe it can follow because none of them are insane enough to say "don't cut your energy consumption". It's really beggars belief the Tories have come up with nothing. I just can't believe they all know Truss is winning and continue with this nonsense of inaction.

Labour should start releasing energy saving tips to follow immediately and put pressure on them.

[fishfoodie]

Labour should start releasing energy saving tips to follow immediately and put pressure on them.

Good idea

Team up with the likes of Martin Lewis, Which!, Citizens advice etc, & send out advice, to stick up on the fridge door, on how to reduce your energy, & food costs, & what to do, & who to contact if you need help to cope this winter.

Doesn't need to be overtly Political, people will remember who was coming to help, & who was fucking off on donor provided Holidays !!!

[dkm57]

Another idea would to cover warehouse roofs in solar panels, the amount of available space huge and VARTs along the M'ways and dual carriageways. Even if it required grant assistance the payback in the long term would be very significant. I know Scotland is already self sufficient in renewables but we've barely begun to exploit our resources of wind, wave, tidal, hydro solar and geothermal. If Western Europe had got their act together they wouldn't need Russian oil.

[Glaston]

The UK government spox saying yesterday households don't need to cut back on energy. They DO because of the cost of it. It's such nonsense ideology. (a) everyone is cutting back anyway due to the cost and (b) people easily would club together as with covid. It's just incredibly frustrating.

They should just go full bore, & give families free LED / CFL lights, & draft excluders, & other simple & cheap energy reduction fixes; & then have a ten year strategy of insulating the shit out of houses.

For this winter, all of Europe needs to learn lessons from Countries that deal with severe cold every year, & reduce the energy requirements across the board.

One of my Aunts was from North Dakota, & when she & my Uncle retired to Ireland, to a damp & cold house in Galway, one of the first things they did was staple a sheet of plastic inside all the windows (as they do in ND), to reduce the heat leakage. I know the conventional wisdom is that this will cause mold, & CO could be a problem, but the reality was the CO source was in a shed with a gale blowing thru it, & the leakage from all the places they couldn't plug, & a CO alarm meant they never saw the doomsday predictions.

There are a lot of simple solutions that can combine to save 1-2% of national energy requirements, without any serious work, but someone needs to put them together & publish them, before the schools are back !

The UK has reduction templates from every country in Europe it can follow because none of them are insane enough to say "don't cut your energy consumption". It's really beggars belief the Tories have come up with nothing. I just can't believe they all know Truss is winning and continue with this nonsense of inaction.

Labour should start releasing energy saving tips to follow immediately and put pressure on them.

UK has cut its electricity use by nearly 20% over the last decade
36.1GW in 2012 to 29.0 at the end of 2021

Energy saving tips no 1
Buy longjohns and a jumper



If I was in charge the Police thermal heli would be up scanning the country. Any one with a house temp over 20c would have a 24 hr power cut

[Glaston]

Another idea would to cover warehouse roofs in solar panels, the amount of available space huge and VARTs along the M'ways and dual carriageways. Even if it required grant assistance the payback in the long term would be very significant. I know Scotland is already self sufficient in renewables but we've barely begun to exploit our resources of wind, wave, tidal, hydro solar and geothermal. If Western Europe had got their act together they wouldn't need Russian oil.

It was all so easy just to suck on the teat of Russian Gas.

The Spanish have gas pipelines going all the way to the French border but the French refused to let the Spanish connect up with the rest of Europe.
There is almost zero solar on peoples houses in the Southern France

[MungoMan]

Youse euros need to take a series of deep, slow breaths to drop your heart-rate a bit. The notion that skyrocketing energy prices are principally a European phenomenon fails the test of fact.

And yes, I get that you don’t necessarily give a tinker’s about what’s happening outside pastyville. In this case, tho’, what’s happening outside Europe is kinda crucial since so many of you are belabouring the point about energy prices and export/import competitiveness.

Here’s the thing: opportunity cost doesn’t disappear just because a country is outside Europe and / or isn’t reliant on Russia for oil, gas or coal.

Here in Straya, for example, export prices of the latter two commodities have responded to the new international benchmarks and hence domestic prices have shadowed that. Similar effects are being seen in other national economies largely dependent on FF energy and exposed to market conditions.

[I like neeps]

Youse euros need to take a series of deep, slow breaths to drop your heart-rate a bit. The notion that skyrocketing energy prices are principally a European phenomenon fails the test of fact.

And yes, I get that you don’t necessarily give a tinker’s about what’s happening outside pastyville. In this case, tho’, what’s happening outside Europe is kinda crucial since so many of you are belabouring the point about energy prices and export/import competitiveness.

Here’s the thing: opportunity cost doesn’t disappear just because a country is outside Europe and / or isn’t reliant on Russia for oil, gas or coal.

Here in Straya, for example, export prices of the latter two commodities have responded to the new international benchmarks and hence domestic prices have shadowed that. Similar effects are being seen in other national economies largely dependent on FF energy and exposed to market conditions.

I mean nobody has said it's a European phenomenon?

It's just the economies of Europe and households across Europe will be in a lot of trouble this winter. That is a fact.

[Biffer]

Another idea would to cover warehouse roofs in solar panels, the amount of available space huge and VARTs along the M'ways and dual carriageways. Even if it required grant assistance the payback in the long term would be very significant. I know Scotland is already self sufficient in renewables but we've barely begun to exploit our resources of wind, wave, tidal, hydro solar and geothermal. If Western Europe had got their act together they wouldn't need Russian oil.

Yeah, I'm getting really pissed off that we're paying through the nose for electricity based on the price of gas when most of our electric comes from renewables where costs haven't increased noticeably.