The Rugby Championship

[Grandpa]

What if Razor doesn't pick any of these players? Then it's an invalid point...

And even if he picks some of them.. and they perform, it's an invalid point....

The jury is out on any player (maybe apart from Cane) until there is a proper coach in charge....

True, but Razor's not the coach (yet) so it's a moot point.

I can't really understand how you think the only player who needs to be dropped is Cane. I can think of at least half a dozen players who shouldn't have even made the initial squad for the Ireland series, and who I can't believe are still in consideration for next year. I know the players don't select themselves, but this is a very average ABs squad, even compared to many of our not-so-great teams of the past.

Meh... It's hard to judge players playing under this confused system. It's difficult to know if it's form or because they don't trust the system. Mounga started doing similar things to what BB does... things I never see him do for the Crusaders, but he was starting to look like BB out there... so it must have been a directive...

That's just one example... so until I see who Razor picks... and what he does with them... I'm not going to judge. Hell, even Ardie Savea and Will Jordan looked impotent yesterday...

I feel that these players... and ones not even in the squad are capable of being world cup winners... more than I did about the 1998 team... the last time we lost often... and no reason why they can't eventually become comparable to other great All Black sides... I think the materials are there. Just watch the Super Final again... there are good players in NZ.

[Dan54]

What if Razor doesn't pick any of these players? Then it's an invalid point...

And even if he picks some of them.. and they perform, it's an invalid point....

The jury is out on any player (maybe apart from Cane) until there is a proper coach in charge....

True, but Razor's not the coach (yet) so it's a moot point.

I can't really understand how you think the only player who needs to be dropped is Cane. I can think of at least half a dozen players who shouldn't have even made the initial squad for the Ireland series, and who I can't believe are still in consideration for next year. I know the players don't select themselves, but this is a very average ABs squad, even compared to many of our not-so-great teams of the past.

Meh... It's hard to judge players playing under this confused system. It's difficult to know if it's form or because they don't trust the system. Mounga started doing similar things to what BB does... things I never see him do for the Crusaders, but he was starting to look like BB out there... so it must have been a directive...

That's just one example... so until I see who Razor picks... and what he does with them... I'm not going to judge. Hell, even Ardie Savea and Will Jordan looked impotent yesterday...

I feel that these players... and ones not even in the squad are capable of being world cup winners... more than I did about the 1998 team... the last time we lost often... and no reason why they can't eventually become comparable to other great All Black sides... I think the materials are there. Just watch the Super Final again... there are good players in NZ.

To be honet Jordan has looked impotent all year in the Black jersey, apart fom a few seconds in a couple of the tests.
He is getting close to myth status, looks great at super but just maybe

[Grandpa]

True, but Razor's not the coach (yet) so it's a moot point.

I can't really understand how you think the only player who needs to be dropped is Cane. I can think of at least half a dozen players who shouldn't have even made the initial squad for the Ireland series, and who I can't believe are still in consideration for next year. I know the players don't select themselves, but this is a very average ABs squad, even compared to many of our not-so-great teams of the past.

Meh... It's hard to judge players playing under this confused system. It's difficult to know if it's form or because they don't trust the system. Mounga started doing similar things to what BB does... things I never see him do for the Crusaders, but he was starting to look like BB out there... so it must have been a directive...

That's just one example... so until I see who Razor picks... and what he does with them... I'm not going to judge. Hell, even Ardie Savea and Will Jordan looked impotent yesterday...

I feel that these players... and ones not even in the squad are capable of being world cup winners... more than I did about the 1998 team... the last time we lost often... and no reason why they can't eventually become comparable to other great All Black sides... I think the materials are there. Just watch the Super Final again... there are good players in NZ.

To be honet Jordan has looked impotent all year in the Black jersey, apart fom a few seconds in a couple of the tests.
He is getting close to myth status, looks great at super but just maybe

World Breakthrough Player of the Year last year... based on All Black form... and playing out of position...

Imagine how good he could be with a coach who makes players the best they can be...

[Gumboot]

This year our wings have scored a combined total of 4 tries in 6 tests.

[Dan54]

Meh... It's hard to judge players playing under this confused system. It's difficult to know if it's form or because they don't trust the system. Mounga started doing similar things to what BB does... things I never see him do for the Crusaders, but he was starting to look like BB out there... so it must have been a directive...

That's just one example... so until I see who Razor picks... and what he does with them... I'm not going to judge. Hell, even Ardie Savea and Will Jordan looked impotent yesterday...

I feel that these players... and ones not even in the squad are capable of being world cup winners... more than I did about the 1998 team... the last time we lost often... and no reason why they can't eventually become comparable to other great All Black sides... I think the materials are there. Just watch the Super Final again... there are good players in NZ.

To be honet Jordan has looked impotent all year in the Black jersey, apart fom a few seconds in a couple of the tests.
He is getting close to myth status, looks great at super but just maybe

World Breakthrough Player of the Year last year... based on All Black form... and playing out of position...

Imagine how good he could be with a coach who makes players the best they can be...

Yep well wasn't serious about myth really, just frustarted how insipid he seems to be this year!. Just out of interest who was the test coach who made him World breakthrough Player of the Year , based on All Black form? Perhaps we should get that fella to coach the ABs?? Oh shit

[Guy Smiley]

None of the players are going to look good under this coach.

We’ve all got our favourites and our scapegoats but if we’re fair about it there’s only a small handful of players you could safely critique… most of them are better than what we’re seeing them deliver, basically.

Subbing your best performer on the night at 45 minutes solely because you’re subbing his props is dumb. So is brining on a debutant with less than a minute to play.

We’re stuck with it now. I dunno about the rest of you but I’d given up on any idea of winning at the next RWC when they resigned Fozzie. Now it’s a matter of just how many years it’ll take to repair the damage… rebuilding a team is one thing, changing the Board and getting some honesty back into the organisation is a whole paradigm shift beyond that.

[Gumboot]

Subbing your best performer on the night at 45 minutes solely because you’re subbing his props is dumb. So is brining on a debutant with less than a minute to play.

That was a shabby way to treat the young bloke on his debut. Talk about a tainted memory. Fucking Foster should be ashamed of himself for doing that.

[Gumboot]

And he selected Hoskins Sotutu in June, then played him for exactly zero minutes over six tests. Didn't even name him in a single match-day 23. What a dick.

[Guy Smiley]

Yup.

I guess that’s down to wanting Ardie and Cane out there.

Imagine starting Sotutu and Ardie for a change.

[Dan54]

From the little b its of time I have seen Ardie at 7 last couple of seasons, he looks like an 8 playing there, and goes better at 8 I think.

[Gumboot]

What if Razor doesn't pick any of these players? Then it's an invalid point...

And even if he picks some of them.. and they perform, it's an invalid point....

The jury is out on any player (maybe apart from Cane) until there is a proper coach in charge....

True, but Razor's not the coach (yet) so it's a moot point.

I can't really understand how you think the only player who needs to be dropped is Cane. I can think of at least half a dozen players who shouldn't have even made the initial squad for the Ireland series, and who I can't believe are still in consideration for next year. I know the players don't select themselves, but this is a very average ABs squad, even compared to many of our not-so-great teams of the past.

Meh... It's hard to judge players playing under this confused system. It's difficult to know if it's form or because they don't trust the system.

But the players have come out strongly in support of their coach, who presumably determines the system.

[Guy Smiley]

True, but Razor's not the coach (yet) so it's a moot point.

I can't really understand how you think the only player who needs to be dropped is Cane. I can think of at least half a dozen players who shouldn't have even made the initial squad for the Ireland series, and who I can't believe are still in consideration for next year. I know the players don't select themselves, but this is a very average ABs squad, even compared to many of our not-so-great teams of the past.

Meh... It's hard to judge players playing under this confused system. It's difficult to know if it's form or because they don't trust the system.

But the players have come out strongly in support of their coach, who presumably determines the system.

I don't think the comments of current players regarding their coach is worth a knob of goat shit. They're hardly going to say they disagree with him or have no faith in his systems, are they?

[Gumboot]

I don't think the comments of current players regarding their coach is worth a knob of goat shit. They're hardly going to say they disagree with him or have no faith in his systems, are they?

No, but they proactively rallied around Foster in his hour of need. And went into bat for him against the CEO and the media.

[Guy Smiley]

I don't think the comments of current players regarding their coach is worth a knob of goat shit. They're hardly going to say they disagree with him or have no faith in his systems, are they?

No, but they proactively rallied around Foster in his hour of need. And went into bat for him against the CEO and the media.

Hypothetical...

next week, NZR do what they could have done weeks ago and sack Fozzie, with Schmidt taking over in the short term before an increasingly unlikely announcement of Razor as the new head coach...

and in the days after his first game in charge the players all come out in support of their new coach and profess their admiration and enthusiasm for his style and the rugby knowledge they are already gaining from him.

[Gumboot]

The results speak for themselves.

[Guy Smiley]

Yup...

so each player that came out strongly in support of Foster needs to go as well.

[OomStruisbaai]

Can you Kiwis please go to Foster out thread with your constant moaning. You make us depressive.

[Gumboot]

Yup...

so each player that came out strongly in support of Foster needs to go as well.

I don't think even you believe that's what I'm suggesting, Guy.

[Sards]

Can you Kiwis please go to Foster out thread with your constant moaning. You make us depressive.

We are depressive too over Rassnaber

[Ymx]

We can’t get him out. So bite me Oom!

Richard Loe’s no nonsense take on it

Former All Blacks prop Richard Loe has labelled the side’s defeat to Argentina as “dismal”.

Ian Foster’s outfit was beaten by Los Pumas 25-18 in Christchurch on Saturday.

It was New Zealand’s first defeat to Argentina on home soil.

In response to a second defeat in three Rugby Championship fixtures, Loe had plenty of questions.
He questioned the decision to replace hooker Samisoni Taukei’aho with Codie Taylor and also blasted the fact Stephen Perofeta’s debut was limited to less than a minute.

“I thought it was dismal,” he said on SENZ Mornings.
“For starters, getting out to a lead and then frittering it away with silly penalties really annoyed me.

“To highlight how poor the regime is, and I think selection is a big thing first of all, but then the way they go about their game plan and how they perceive and see the game.
“There were two subs that were pathetic, and that’s the only way you can describe them.

“First you have got a hooker playing out of his skin and he’s clearly the number one hooker. Why the hell can’t he play for 80 minutes? Then you bring on a hooker who is way off form and had four or five missed throws in the last 30-odd minutes.

“That really put the pressure on and then to bring someone on with less than a minute to go for his debut, what are the coaching staff thinking or doing?

“For him, what does he remember if he never plays for the All Blacks again? He had 40 seconds. Put that all aside, why did the coaches do it? It has not been explained and I don’t think they could explain it.

“I think the rot of the whole system has been rotten from the top down for a long time.”

Loe also commented on head coach Ian Foster who is yet again in the spotlight for overseeing another defeat.
“Poor old ‘Fozzie’, he’d be on quite a good salary I’d suspect,” he added.

“If that was in the commercial world, he probably would have fallen on his sword, put his hand up and say, ‘the buck stops wth me’, and stepped down.

“When you’re up the top of a tree, the branches are very thin. If you don’t do things right, they break and you fall.
“For some reason, he’s sitting on one hell of a strong branch.”

The All Blacks will be intent on recoiling when they again host Argentina in Hamilton on Saturday.

[Sards]

Where's Rassnabber's team. It's Monday already

[OomStruisbaai]

Where's Rassnabber's team. It's Monday already

SPRINGBOKS: 15 Willie le Roux, 14 Canan Moodie, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Damian Willemse, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Elrigh Louw, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Trevor Nyakane, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Bench: 16 Deon Fourie 17 Ox Nche, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Salmaan Moerat, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Herschel Jantjies, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Warrick Gelant.

[Sards]

Where's Rassnabber's team. It's Monday already

SPRINGBOKS: 15 Willie le Roux, 14 Canan Moodie, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Damian Willemse, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Elrigh Louw, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Trevor Nyakane, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Bench: 16 Deon Fourie 17 Ox Nche, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Salmaan Moerat, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Herschel Jantjies, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Warrick Gelant.

I thought you didn't read Keo

[OomStruisbaai]

Where's Rassnabber's team. It's Monday already

SPRINGBOKS: 15 Willie le Roux, 14 Canan Moodie, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Damian Willemse, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Elrigh Louw, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Trevor Nyakane, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Bench: 16 Deon Fourie 17 Ox Nche, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Salmaan Moerat, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Herschel Jantjies, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Warrick Gelant.

I thought you didn't read Keo

Will be a great team. Would bench Willie and start Gelant. Faf for Hendrikse

[Sards]

SPRINGBOKS: 15 Willie le Roux, 14 Canan Moodie, 13 Lukhanyo Am, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Damian Willemse, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Elrigh Louw, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Franco Mostert, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Trevor Nyakane, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Bench: 16 Deon Fourie 17 Ox Nche, 18 Vincent Koch, 19 Salmaan Moerat, 20 Kwagga Smith, 21 Herschel Jantjies, 22 Elton Jantjies, 23 Warrick Gelant.

I thought you didn't read Keo

Will be a great team. Would bench Willie and start Gelant. Faf for Hendrikse

Willie at least creates opportunities by running the ball and not kicking. Wtf would you want Herschel Junkies there. He is piss poor. Reinach would be the go to.

[Deepsouth]

I thought you didn't read Keo

Will be a great team. Would bench Willie and start Gelant. Faf for Hendrikse

Willie at least creates opportunities by running the ball and not kicking. Wtf would you want Herschel Junkies there. He is piss poor. Reinach would be the go to.

Don't think it is going to matter who SA pick. Looks like Rennie has the Boks measure. When the Wallabies win on the weekend that will be 4 from 4 for Mr Rennie........

[OomStruisbaai]

Will be a great team. Would bench Willie and start Gelant. Faf for Hendrikse

Willie at least creates opportunities by running the ball and not kicking. Wtf would you want Herschel Junkies there. He is piss poor. Reinach would be the go to.

Don't think it is going to matter who SA pick. Looks like Rennie has the Boks measure. When the Wallabies win on the weekend that will be 4 from 4 for Mr Rennie........

Yes Wallabies by 50

[Hal Jordan]

From the little b its of time I have seen Ardie at 7 last couple of seasons, he looks like an 8 playing there, and goes better at 8 I think.

As an outsider, he looks small for an 8. Don't know his (reported) stats, but he doesn't seem to have the bulk.

[Ymx]

From the little b its of time I have seen Ardie at 7 last couple of seasons, he looks like an 8 playing there, and goes better at 8 I think.

As an outsider, he looks small for an 8. Don't know his (reported) stats, but he doesn't seem to have the bulk.

You’re not wrong.

There is a new up and coming guy - Cullen Grace.

Good in scrum, good jumper. Got the beef and height 6’4 and 107kg. But also has the skill to boot.

Most were surprised at his non inclusion in the squad, given his quality season. But a certain F***er is in charge…

[Dan54]

From the little b its of time I have seen Ardie at 7 last couple of seasons, he looks like an 8 playing there, and goes better at 8 I think.

As an outsider, he looks small for an 8. Don't know his (reported) stats, but he doesn't seem to have the bulk.

You’re not wrong.

There is a new up and coming guy - Cullen Grace.

Good in scrum, good jumper. Got the beef and height 6’4 and 107kg. But also has the skill to boot.

Most were surprised at his non inclusion in the squad, given his quality season. But a certain F***er is in charge…

Like Grace, he still a little bit away with needing to get physicality up. I didn't think he was an AB this year, he struggled to get a start at Crusaders and only really got a couple of good games under belt during thye comp. Liked what he did for MAB , but though he was a little shy on carrying hard, and iffy when someone runs at him real hard, well impression I got at MAB in Hamilton when I was there. Also in NPC was at Taranki game, and he seemed to struggle whan the Naki boys really took it to Canterbury. Even look at his shoulder injury, looked to me like it was he was passive in the tackle and tucked his arm a bit, and so got wiped.
In saying that I been on his wagon for a couple of years and still reckon he will go well when he sorts that out, will be real good,

[Guy Smiley]

2022 has seen Grace take some mammoth strides forward for the Crusaders, with the youngster earning 15 appearances for the Super Rugby Pacific champions – 13 of which were in the number 8 jersey.

[Ymx]

Morning Guy.



Another killer first up post.

I’m clocking out from my shift.

[Guy Smiley]

Good night YMX...

The All Blacks have become the Wallabies

OPINION: Having lived in Australia for a period covering the Wallabies’ great decline (2000-2013), I have a warning for New Zealanders in the wake of the All Blacks loss to Argentina on Saturday: the length and depth of New Zealand rugby’s decline is entirely dependent on the decisions made in the next year or so.



And it is a decline: everything about the All Blacks’ performance on Saturday screamed decline: you don’t get to that point unless a number of things have gone wrong.

Here are some of the symptoms and/or causes of the Australian decline: do they sound familiar?

A lack of alignment between the governing body and the test team; an over-sensitivity to criticism; a lack of effective relationships between the national side and the Super Rugby clubs; the atrophying of professional players’ skill levels; the development of saviour syndrome amongst fans (if only coach A/player A were involved it would be just fine); player power; a complete disconnection between the rich professional game and the grassroots; clear evidence of people within the rugby system working in silos; an inability to work out what to do with the ‘third tier’ of rugby (NPC); the loss of coaches overseas; a misguided belief that what worked previously will work again; blaming external factors (the refs, the rules); and performance inconsistency.

My experience from Australia is also this: once you have a serious set of issues like those affecting New Zealand rugby at present, it can be extremely difficult to change course through personnel changes alone.

For example, take a look at the Wallabies’ coaching history over the past decade.

They sacked Robbie Deans (he went on to build a Crusaders-style dynasty in Japanese rugby): Ewen McKenzie lasted just more than a year (and has been lost to the game); Michael Cheika’s reign ended in anger and finger pointing (he then beat the All Blacks on Saturday); and even Dave Rennie is under some pressure (his win rate is just over 40%).


Changing coaches has not helped the Wallabies become a better team; in fact, they have gradually won fewer and fewer games over the course of the past 10 years.

I’m willing to bet that Scott Robertson is acutely aware of the bigger picture here. This All Blacks job, under the current settings in New Zealand rugby, is not all it’s cracked up to be.

Take a look at Joe Schmidt’s body language in the coaching box on Saturday: a world-class coach stressed, anxious and – crucially – helpless as he watched a performance that reflected so many of the issues listed above.


Indeed, if Robertson is smart, and I think he is, he will play the waiting game and then present a list of non-negotiables that would address some of the many issues that have derailed Australian rugby and are starting to do the same thing here.

The decline is real, and it’s time to do something otherwise Richie McCaw will become John Eales, the player Australians tell their grandkids about as a reminder of the good old days.

[Grandpa]

Well Guy .. that's just depressing

[Dan54]

Yup...

so each player that came out strongly in support of Foster needs to go as well.

Geez that will see an interesting team, who will we lose? Mounga, Havili, Whitelock, Smith, Savea and Cane. I not sure who else has been in press that I have actually seen.

[Gumboot]

Meanwhile, is anyone looking forward to the team naming for the next test? Or is that expectation also a thing of the past?

[OomStruisbaai]

Springboks – 15 Willie le Roux, 14 Canan Moodie, 13 Jesse Kriel, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Makazole Mapimpi, 10 Damian Willemse, 9 Jaden Hendrikse, 8 Jasper Wiese, 7 Franco Mostert, 6 Siya Kolisi, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Malcolm Marx, 1 Steven Kitshoff.
Subs: 16 Deon Fourie, 17 Ox Nche, 18 Trevor Nyakane, 19 Kwagga Smith, 20 Duane Vermeulen, 21 Cobus Reinach, 22 Frans Steyn, 23 Warrick Gelant

[OomStruisbaai]

The starting lineup features eight changes in response to Handre Pollard, Lukhanyo Am and Pieter-Steph du Toit being ruled out due to knee injuries, while Elton Jantjies was ruled out with a hand complaint. Damian Willemse has consequently been selected at flyhalf, Jesse Kriel slots in at centre and Franco Mostert has been included in the loose trio.

[assfly]

What a weird looking team

They'll probably win on Saturday, as Australia will have no idea what to prepare for.

[Sards]

Risky changes.....with the box kick game plan there is no room for error. Very excited for Moodley. He really has been thrown in on the deep end at a critical point. Damian at 10 is going to be interesting.