UK Home energy prices

[Biffer]

Raggs is correct, gas is a global market and the world's second largest supplier being removed from the market ends up in everyone's prices going up. Doesn't matter we get most of our energy from the north sea as the producers don't give us better contracts because it's our sea they're drilling.

France are paying for the increase through the governments magic money tree. Macron is signalling in December they'll have to change that. This is a Europe wide issue that nobody is protected from and all economies will be very damaged.

I think you've missed my point. We are a producer, yet get little in return.

In the last few years the UK Gov has lowered the three taxes oil and gas extraction companies pay in the UK. Corporation tax has gone from 24% to 19%, supplementary charge has gone from 35% to 10% and the petroleum revenue tax has plummeted from 50% to 0 (zero).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00341/

meanwhile profits, and shareholders, are doing quite nicely

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndfall-tax

The increase in global prices could be mitigated for UK consumers via taxation.

We tax them more, they increase their prices to offset the extra tax to ensure their shareholders and top executives continue to get the same amount.

We're at a point in capitalism where the corporations have more power because they own the government. The government could actually put in a cap, but they're getting wealthy too, so who gives a shit about the little people.

Perhaps you can explain why Norway has had £400 billion more tax revenue from its oil production than the UK over the last 40 years, having produced roughly the same amount from the same basin (so challenges were identical)

[TB63]

Apart from the cost per kWh going up, how the fuck can they justify increasing the standing charge from 18 to 45 pence per day! And wtf is it for?

[tabascoboy]

Apart from the cost per kWh going up, how the fuck can they justify increasing the standing charge from 18 to 45 pence per day! And wtf is it for?

"Standing Charge" isn't regulated by Ofgem, so the suppliers can do whatever the hell they want. Usually its for running and maintaining the system, but currently the increases cover “supplier of last resort” scheme – every household is expected to pay the billions that have gone into rescuing customers from failed companies.

[shaggy]

I think you've missed my point. We are a producer, yet get little in return.

In the last few years the UK Gov has lowered the three taxes oil and gas extraction companies pay in the UK. Corporation tax has gone from 24% to 19%, supplementary charge has gone from 35% to 10% and the petroleum revenue tax has plummeted from 50% to 0 (zero).
https://commonslibrary.parliament.uk/re ... s/sn00341/

meanwhile profits, and shareholders, are doing quite nicely

https://www.theguardian.com/business/20 ... ndfall-tax

The increase in global prices could be mitigated for UK consumers via taxation.

We tax them more, they increase their prices to offset the extra tax to ensure their shareholders and top executives continue to get the same amount.

We're at a point in capitalism where the corporations have more power because they own the government. The government could actually put in a cap, but they're getting wealthy too, so who gives a shit about the little people.

Perhaps you can explain why Norway has had £400 billion more tax revenue from its oil production than the UK over the last 40 years, having produced roughly the same amount from the same basin (so challenges were identical)

Majority government owned company Statoil might have something to do with it.

[Biffer]

We tax them more, they increase their prices to offset the extra tax to ensure their shareholders and top executives continue to get the same amount.

We're at a point in capitalism where the corporations have more power because they own the government. The government could actually put in a cap, but they're getting wealthy too, so who gives a shit about the little people.

Perhaps you can explain why Norway has had £400 billion more tax revenue from its oil production than the UK over the last 40 years, having produced roughly the same amount from the same basin (so challenges were identical)

Majority government owned company Statoil might have something to do with it.

So government approach has earned us less money in the UK. By £400billion.

[Hal Jordan]

But it won votes and made lots of chums money, so that's the Teal prize.

[Lobby]

Perhaps you can explain why Norway has had £400 billion more tax revenue from its oil production than the UK over the last 40 years, having produced roughly the same amount from the same basin (so challenges were identical)

Majority government owned company Statoil might have something to do with it.

So government approach has earned us less money in the UK. By £400billion.

Don't forget that the Norwegian Govt also used its oil revenues to establish the largest sovereign wealth fund in the world, while in the UK it was used to pay for mass unemployment, tax cuts and current government spending.

"The Government Pension Fund Global, also known as the Oil Fund, was established in 1990 to invest the surplus revenues of the Norwegian petroleum sector. It has over US$1.19 trillion in assets,[1] and holds 1.4% of all of the world’s listed companies, making it the world’s largest sovereign wealth fund.[2][3] In December 2021, it was worth about $250,000 per Norwegian citizen.[1] It also holds portfolios of real estate and fixed-income investments. Many companies are excluded by the fund on ethical grounds."

[shaggy]

Perhaps you can explain why Norway has had £400 billion more tax revenue from its oil production than the UK over the last 40 years, having produced roughly the same amount from the same basin (so challenges were identical)

Majority government owned company Statoil might have something to do with it.

So government approach has earned us less money in the UK. By £400billion.

Yes. But it is not quite a simple as that. I have seen some very protectionist practices around O&G is the Norwegian sector that could not be done in the UK and these practices have created a very closed system, which has allowed greater retention of profits.

Not saying anymore on this but a widely used term in O&G has been Norway Inc.

[dpedin]

Majority government owned company Statoil might have something to do with it.

So government approach has earned us less money in the UK. By £400billion.

Yes. But it is not quite a simple as that. I have seen some very protectionist practices around O&G is the Norwegian sector that could not be done in the UK and these practices have created a very closed system, which has allowed greater retention of profits.

Not saying anymore on this but a widely used term in O&G has been Norway Inc.

I'm not so sure that the 'protectionist practices' and 'Norway Inc' are as bad as they sound or you imply! In other words what they have done is ensure that a significant proportion of the wealth generated by their country's natural resources have been retained for the good of the population who ultimately owned those natural resources. I am not sure this is 'protectionism' is a bad thing to be honest and it is something that Scotland/UK should have implemented as well. Since the 1070's we have seen profits from our abundance of natural resources leak out in the form of excess profits to major multinational companies who have been particularly good at avoiding tax and influencing Govs so as to avoid taxation. Everyone talks about UK oil, gas and renewables but in effect they are not ours, we have flogged them off cheap and they are now owned by multinationals who are making huge sums by flogging them on the open market to the highest bidders. We currently have a gas surplus in UK, and because of Truss et al closing our storage capacity, it is currently being sold to EU countries to top up their storage facilities and if we want to buy it back in winter, if we can, then we will pay through the nose to buy our own gas back. We have very limited energy security and will struggle to keep the lights on this winter.

[I like neeps]

Edwina Currie is obviously unserious...

However, her advice on how to conserve heating is what we need more of. Support for those who can't afford from Government AND a massive campaign on how we all can cut consumption is essential.

[shaggy]

So government approach has earned us less money in the UK. By £400billion.

Yes. But it is not quite a simple as that. I have seen some very protectionist practices around O&G is the Norwegian sector that could not be done in the UK and these practices have created a very closed system, which has allowed greater retention of profits.

Not saying anymore on this but a widely used term in O&G has been Norway Inc.

I'm not so sure that the 'protectionist practices' and 'Norway Inc' are as bad as they sound or you imply! In other words what they have done is ensure that a significant proportion of the wealth generated by their country's natural resources have been retained for the good of the population who ultimately owned those natural resources. I am not sure this is 'protectionism' is a bad thing to be honest and it is something that Scotland/UK should have implemented as well. Since the 1070's we have seen profits from our abundance of natural resources leak out in the form of excess profits to major multinational companies who have been particularly good at avoiding tax and influencing Govs so as to avoid taxation. Everyone talks about UK oil, gas and renewables but in effect they are not ours, we have flogged them off cheap and they are now owned by multinationals who are making huge sums by flogging them on the open market to the highest bidders. We currently have a gas surplus in UK, and because of Truss et al closing our storage capacity, it is currently being sold to EU countries to top up their storage facilities and if we want to buy it back in winter, if we can, then we will pay through the nose to buy our own gas back. We have very limited energy security and will struggle to keep the lights on this winter.

Never said there were bad. I was offering a reason why the net value to the Coastal State might have come about using my very own experience.

[tabascoboy]

I actually did that last winter, well proper reflective foil not just kitchen foil. Not convinced it makes a worthwhile money saving but does seem to help get a room warmer ever so slightly quicker. The problem really lies with what happens if you can't afford to put radiators on in the first place which is going to be an issue for vulnerable people.

Insulation and draught-proofing advice is always sound, but let's not assume all that's needed is saving a few quid a month when bills are going up in hundreds. Younger and healthier people will be better placed to just put up with not being as warm but it's going to be desperate especially in areas where damp as well as cold affects the vulnerable. Let's see what wonder plan they come up with in this first week as promised.

[Niegs]

Edwina Currie is obviously unserious...

However, her advice on how to conserve heating is what we need more of. Support for those who can't afford from Government AND a massive campaign on how we all can cut consumption is essential.

The reaction of the male host there!

[I like neeps]

I actually did that last winter, well proper reflective foil not just kitchen foil. Not convinced it makes a worthwhile money saving but does seem to help get a room warmer ever so slightly quicker. The problem really lies with what happens if you can't afford to put radiators on in the first place which is going to be an issue for vulnerable people.

Insulation and draught-proofing advice is always sound, but let's not assume all that's needed is saving a few quid a month when bills are going up in hundreds. Younger and healthier people will be better placed to just put up with not being as warm but it's going to be desperate especially in areas where damp as well as cold affects the vulnerable. Let's see what wonder plan they come up with in this first week as promised.

True which is why I said these energy savings tips for you and I and government intervention for people who can't afford it. There needs to be both financial help AND a serious discussion on reduction of energy whether that is insulation, tinfoil, draft tape, thicker duvets for those who need to cut consumption is key. The worst thing that can happen is the state pay for people to use more energy than is sensible.

[I like neeps]

Edwina Currie is obviously unserious...

However, her advice on how to conserve heating is what we need more of. Support for those who can't afford from Government AND a massive campaign on how we all can cut consumption is essential.

The reaction of the male host there!

That's Martin Lewis who is right to be dismayed as Edwina Currie is downplaying how serious the conversation is.

However, it's two separate conversations. He's having the conversation about people who outright cannot afford the increases and she's speaking for those who can but should cut down.

[dpedin]

Reading that it might be cheaper going to southern Spain for the winter rather than trying to stay warm here! Worth a thought and might get more golf in too!

[fishfoodie]

Reading that it might be cheaper going to southern Spain for the winter rather than trying to stay warm here! Worth a thought and might get more golf in too!

Bottle of fake tan.
Paddle boat.
Show up on a beach in Kent, & do a pretend Kurdish accent.

....

Free trip to Rwanda !

[Raggs]

Reading that it might be cheaper going to southern Spain for the winter rather than trying to stay warm here! Worth a thought and might get more golf in too!

If we didn't have our son, we'd probably seriously consider going abroad for a few months, I can work from anywhere as long as there's an internet connection.

[Ovals]

My Daughter and Partner supply and install wood burning stoves - they have a very full order book and can barely keep up with all the requests for quotes. We're having our open fire replaced with a Stove in early October. I daresay the price of logs will also sky rocket now.

[TB63]

Shopping around, just found a local supplier at £50 a ton. Loose load, have ordered 10 loads..
Not got a wood burner yet, but just ordered one for my workshop and one for the house, going with a Reflex for workshop as I make a load of sawdust also, and Saltfire Bignut 5 for the house. DEFRA approved. 5 kw nominal output so no need for a vent..(8 if you ramp it up) Had a Saltfire before, loved the stove, never cleaned the glass once which is a bonus..

[fishfoodie]

I've one of these for the last few years, & even though it's in a large space, I've only had it going full beans a couple of times, as you need start stripping off clothes, even with the doors open to spread the heat throughout the house. One of my wisest purchases !

[GogLais]

My Daughter and Partner supply and install wood burning stoves - they have a very full order book and can barely keep up with all the requests for quotes. We're having our open fire replaced with a Stove in early October. I daresay the price of logs will also sky rocket now.

Fortunately wood does grow on trees.

[GogLais]

Ive seen a fair bit of pushback against energy metres at home, what’s the issue here? We’ve changed supplier when we moved and they are going hard regarding us getting one installed which makes me suspicious

I can’t remember the detail but there was a series of articles in the Sunday Times a few weeks ago relating all sorts of problems with them.

Actually, I think it was Rod Liddle in the ST that I am remembering ,well done

I sometimes agree with the Rod but the stuff I’m thinking of was in the Business News.

[robmatic]

Reading that it might be cheaper going to southern Spain for the winter rather than trying to stay warm here! Worth a thought and might get more golf in too!

It's not that much warmer in Spain in the winter though, surely? The UK winter is mild, if wet and depressing.

Also, holiday properties aren't always designed for winter occupation. I know it's the wrong Mediterranean country, but my in-laws have a place in Bodrum and we would probably have to do something about heaters and insulation if we wanted to spend the winter there.

[Lobby]

My Daughter and Partner supply and install wood burning stoves - they have a very full order book and can barely keep up with all the requests for quotes. We're having our open fire replaced with a Stove in early October. I daresay the price of logs will also sky rocket now.

Fortunately wood does grow on trees.

Wood burning stoves have their own environmental problems, produce more pollution than cars, and can have a deleterious impact on health.

“home use of solid fuel is one of the top two sources of particle pollution in the UK, coming from just 8% of UK homes”

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... tudy-finds

https://www.theguardian.com/environment ... data-shows

[vball]

We replaced open fire with a stove when we moved into our Highland Croft 15 years ago. Some stats like an open fire 20% of heat goes into the room and 80% up the chimney. With a stove it is other way around. You really only need a small stove as they really do put out a lot of heat, especially when the cast iron gets hot. We are lucky as we have lots of trees on our land but have gone back to purely coal. Mixing logs and coal really does make the chimney dirty.

As for it being environmentally unfriendly, the oil we burn in the heating system might also be seen as not being particularly good. We get the oil wagon up here every 6 months or so.

What is the thought on burning serfs? This is surely environmentally friendly as it decreases the world's population.

[I like neeps]

Seems like Truss is going to cap residential energy and commercial energy costs by giving the energy companies a blank cheque. I think there should be a cap on energy usage that is capped for the home and then paid for with windfall taxes but it had to be done.

[tabascoboy]

We replaced open fire with a stove when we moved into our Highland Croft 15 years ago. Some stats like an open fire 20% of heat goes into the room and 80% up the chimney. With a stove it is other way around. You really only need a small stove as they really do put out a lot of heat, especially when the cast iron gets hot. We are lucky as we have lots of trees on our land but have gone back to purely coal. Mixing logs and coal really does make the chimney dirty.

As for it being environmentally unfriendly, the oil we burn in the heating system might also be seen as not being particularly good. We get the oil wagon up here every 6 months or so.

What is the thought on burning serfs? This is surely environmentally friendly as it decreases the world's population.

Half expecting this lot to suggest burning illegal immigrants...now the Rwanda thing is dead

[vball]

Half expecting this lot to suggest burning illegal immigrants...now the Rwanda thing is dead

.... and where would one get these illegal immigrants from? They are like hen's teeth up here in the Highlands. Perhaps I could hire a bus and get them direct from source. Keeping them fattened up, etc so they provide a better energy/weight ration.
Even better, just re-route their boats up to Invergordon. A direct feed to the stove.

[Raggs]

Just nationalise them FFS.

[Paddington Bear]

5% of GDP! Imagine how many nuclear power plants/offshore wind farms etc we could build for that and never have to confront this problem again.

[shaggy]

Just nationalise them FFS.

If you nationalise them you need to commit to funding them long term, which will be a major challenge.

[robmatic]

Just nationalise them FFS.

If you nationalise them you need to commit to funding them long term, which will be a major challenge.

The British model of privatised utilities is that the government funds them in the long term anyway.

[Raggs]

Just nationalise them FFS.

If you nationalise them you need to commit to funding them long term, which will be a major challenge.

We're already funding them long term.

They're paying shareholders billions, whilst taking billions from the government already...

[shaggy]

Just nationalise them FFS.

If you nationalise them you need to commit to funding them long term, which will be a major challenge.

We're already funding them long term.

They're paying shareholders billions, whilst taking billions from the government already...

Sounds simple then.

[I like neeps]

If you nationalise them you need to commit to funding them long term, which will be a major challenge.

We're already funding them long term.

They're paying shareholders billions, whilst taking billions from the government already...

Sounds simple then.

We're actually going to be paying banks billions to subsidize them rather than the govt I believe.

[Hal Jordan]

Just nationalise them FFS.

I'm not sure even the most diehard Corbynista thinks nationalising illegal immigrants is feasible.

[petej]

We're already funding them long term.

They're paying shareholders billions, whilst taking billions from the government already...

Sounds simple then.

We're actually going to be paying banks billions to subsidize them rather than the govt I believe.

We are absolutely insane in how we enable the already very rich to skim off more and more.

[I like neeps]

Sounds simple then.

We're actually going to be paying banks billions to subsidize them rather than the govt I believe.

We are absolutely insane in how we enable the already very rich to skim off more and more.

Thatcherite economics

But don't worry, the money we pay through tax to pay off banks will trickle down the economy in no time.

[Slick]

We've got the candles on tonight!

I'm currently trying to contact the guy next door who has gone off to Canada for 3 weeks today but seems to have left on all the spotlights in his garden and at least 2 big lights inside.... might hurt a bit.