The Official English Rugby Thread

[Kawazaki]

Yes, he clearly tripped him by lifting up his left leg! GIFs are very useful as they paint a thousand words. Just a pity you need 10,000 words.

[JM2K6]

50/50 call
Saints butchered pl.enty of other opportunities to win the match

Yeah - it was frankly bizarre how Saints contrived to blow all those tries. Very strange game. We'll take it of course, we got sawn off las tweek and we're really struggling with all the absences, so winning one we should've lost makes a pleasant change this season.

I would've been a bit miffed if the ref had pinged Riley there but it could be justified. The TMO was of course correct about the double movement, which is what he was checking. No Saints player seemed concerned about Riley either. C'est la vie.

Saints' 2nd half showed them finally understand how to win that match; there's only a few sides that can match the running power of their back row. And no side looks better to watch on the front foot IMO. It's also good to see Furbank back at his best, he was excellent under the high ball and Marchant aside we were well beaten in that aspect.

[inactionman]

Exodus (loan initially) begins from Worcester with Ted Hill, Ollie Lawrence, Fergus Lee-Warner and Valery Morozov all heading to Bath by all accounts.

Welcome additions, given absences in squad, and Hill in particular looks to have a fair bit of fire to him.

I'm still confused by how this is being paid for under the cap.

Bath have - yet again - significant number of long-term injured so they may be coming as injury replacement, although some speculation on the Bath forums that they may be being paid under the Worcester cap (which seems fanciful at best)

Anyway, hopefully at least one these will have an idea of how to defend. Bath are scoring a reasonable amount, the problem is we're conceding a ridiculous amount.

[Margin__Walker]

Exodus (loan initially) begins from Worcester with Ted Hill, Ollie Lawrence, Fergus Lee-Warner and Valery Morozov all heading to Bath by all accounts.

Welcome additions, given absences in squad, and Hill in particular looks to have a fair bit of fire to him.

I'm still confused by how this is being paid for under the cap.

Bath have - yet again - significant number of long-term injured so they may be coming as injury replacement, although some speculation on the Bath forums that they may be being paid under the Worcester cap (which seems fanciful at best)

Anyway, hopefully at least one these will have an idea of how to defend. Bath are scoring a reasonable amount, the problem is we're conceding a ridiculous amount.

You've plenty of injuries. I would assume this fits pretty comfortably under injury dispensation allowance for the moment.

[inactionman]

Exodus (loan initially) begins from Worcester with Ted Hill, Ollie Lawrence, Fergus Lee-Warner and Valery Morozov all heading to Bath by all accounts.

Welcome additions, given absences in squad, and Hill in particular looks to have a fair bit of fire to him.

I'm still confused by how this is being paid for under the cap.

Bath have - yet again - significant number of long-term injured so they may be coming as injury replacement, although some speculation on the Bath forums that they may be being paid under the Worcester cap (which seems fanciful at best)

Anyway, hopefully at least one these will have an idea of how to defend. Bath are scoring a reasonable amount, the problem is we're conceding a ridiculous amount.

You've plenty of injuries. I would assume this fits pretty comfortably under injury dispensation allowance for the moment.

I had it in my head it was limited to £400K, and we've already got Quinn Roux in as cover for Ewels.

We might be a bit under the cap as there was quite a bit of late movement with Watson staying or going

[Margin__Walker]

I had it in my head it was limited to £400K, and we've already got Quinn Roux in as cover for Ewels.

We might be a bit under the cap as there was quite a bit of late movement with Watson staying or going

I have no idea how it all works, but will speculate anyway....

Assume Roux is in for the season for Ewels? If so, that may be 200k or so perhaps. Then you've got these for lads to pay for a few months, or however long they are here. I'm not sure in this situation if you just take over the existing Worcester salary for this period (likely that's how it normally happens). It may be that in the short term, these guys just want somewhere to play and train and will settle for a little less whilst they line things up. In either scenario though, there should still be enough headroom on the allowance. That's assuming you didn't have a bit of contingency headroom anyway, which I think often happens.

As I said though. That could all be complete rubbish.

[Raggs]

Think the limit is £400k, but you're not loaning them for an entire season, just a month at first I believe.

[SaintK]

Jamie George gone for 10 weeks with a foot injury. Shame, been in prime form for Sarries. Hope L C-D stays fit.

Saracens hooker Jamie George will miss England's autumn internationals after being sidelined by injury.
George - who turns 32 later this month - sustained a foot injury in Sarries' thumping win over Leicester Tigers on Saturday.
A club statement said: "It is expected that he will be out for around 10 weeks, returning in early December."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63130336

[Margin__Walker]

His name may have come up in the summer during the Eng v SA U18 games where he was stand out, but 17 yo openside Henry Pollock made his second Prem Cup appearance for Saints last night (first start).

Scored two tries, an assist for another and made the the break that lead to a forth.

One to look out for. Not the biggest (as opensides go these days), but very dynamic, great over the ball and a good link player. Back to school for him this morning.

[Kawazaki]

His name may have come up in the summer during the Eng v SA U18 games where he was stand out, but 17 yo openside Henry Pollock made his second Prem Cup appearance for Saints last night (first start).

Scored two tries, an assist for another and made the the break that lead to a forth.

One to look out for. Not the biggest (as opensides go these days), but very dynamic, great over the ball and a good link player. Back to school for him this morning.

Highlights here;



Saracens midfield defence very average. However, take a look at the Saracens hooker called Adejimi, he's an absolute Bull, scores 4 tries mostly just running through about 3/4 Saints tacklers.

[geordie_6]

His name may have come up in the summer during the Eng v SA U18 games where he was stand out, but 17 yo openside Henry Pollock made his second Prem Cup appearance for Saints last night (first start).

Scored two tries, an assist for another and made the the break that lead to a forth.

One to look out for. Not the biggest (as opensides go these days), but very dynamic, great over the ball and a good link player. Back to school for him this morning.

Highlights here;



Saracens midfield defence very average. However, take a look at the Saracens hooker called Adejimi, he's an absolute Bull, scores 4 tries mostly just running through about 3/4 Saints tacklers.

giving Adejimi the ball at the back of the ruck felt like a cheat code.

[Margin__Walker]

Plenty of room for improvement though.

Was fairly lazy on that forth try. Just let the rest of the pack do the work and flopped over.

[JM2K6]

The 2nd? 3rd? one is the real eye-opener, reminiscent of both the Simmonds and Louw tries in the Exeter/Quins final for the "how the fuck did he manage to score that?" factor. Looks good. Presumably his throwing's decent too if they had that many lineout drives from close range.

Quins had a young hooker in the cup game I hadn't seen before, he charged up on one kick chase and I genuinely thought it was one of our backs for a second. He's a bit of a unit too. You really get the sense that the next generation of players are going to move the game forward in this country, the baseline level of talent and athleticism is really impressive.

[fishfoodie]

The 2nd? 3rd? one is the real eye-opener, reminiscent of both the Simmonds and Louw tries in the Exeter/Quins final for the "how the fuck did he manage to score that?" factor. Looks good. Presumably his throwing's decent too if they had that many lineout drives from close range.

Quins had a young hooker in the cup game I hadn't seen before, he charged up on one kick chase and I genuinely thought it was one of our backs for a second. He's a bit of a unit too. You really get the sense that the next generation of players are going to move the game forward in this country, the baseline level of talent and athleticism is really impressive.

You just need a National coach that'll pick players before they're 30.

[Margin__Walker]

The 2nd? 3rd? one is the real eye-opener, reminiscent of both the Simmonds and Louw tries in the Exeter/Quins final for the "how the fuck did he manage to score that?" factor. Looks good. Presumably his throwing's decent too if they had that many lineout drives from close range.

Quins had a young hooker in the cup game I hadn't seen before, he charged up on one kick chase and I genuinely thought it was one of our backs for a second. He's a bit of a unit too. You really get the sense that the next generation of players are going to move the game forward in this country, the baseline level of talent and athleticism is really impressive.

I may not have been entirely serious in that post.

He looks a weapon

[JM2K6]

The 2nd? 3rd? one is the real eye-opener, reminiscent of both the Simmonds and Louw tries in the Exeter/Quins final for the "how the fuck did he manage to score that?" factor. Looks good. Presumably his throwing's decent too if they had that many lineout drives from close range.

Quins had a young hooker in the cup game I hadn't seen before, he charged up on one kick chase and I genuinely thought it was one of our backs for a second. He's a bit of a unit too. You really get the sense that the next generation of players are going to move the game forward in this country, the baseline level of talent and athleticism is really impressive.

You just need a National coach that'll pick players before they're 30.

At this stage I don't really give a fuck about that, it's more about having a healthy and entertaining professional game that actually exists and has a future in this country. Eddie's a minor irritation compared to that right now.

[JM2K6]

The 2nd? 3rd? one is the real eye-opener, reminiscent of both the Simmonds and Louw tries in the Exeter/Quins final for the "how the fuck did he manage to score that?" factor. Looks good. Presumably his throwing's decent too if they had that many lineout drives from close range.

Quins had a young hooker in the cup game I hadn't seen before, he charged up on one kick chase and I genuinely thought it was one of our backs for a second. He's a bit of a unit too. You really get the sense that the next generation of players are going to move the game forward in this country, the baseline level of talent and athleticism is really impressive.

I may not have been entirely serious in that post.

He looks a weapon

I know! I was just saying there's a couple of impressive bits of play from him but one genuinely ridiculous one I wanted to talk about :-)

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, agree on the athleticism point. Some of the kids you see coming through from U18s into senior academies are pretty absurd.

Not just the forwards too. Just this weekend you see guys like Murley with an upright touchline hand off on Freeman and Arundell flat out bouncing back rows that go in for the hit on him .

[Raggs]

The 2nd? 3rd? one is the real eye-opener, reminiscent of both the Simmonds and Louw tries in the Exeter/Quins final for the "how the fuck did he manage to score that?" factor. Looks good. Presumably his throwing's decent too if they had that many lineout drives from close range.

Quins had a young hooker in the cup game I hadn't seen before, he charged up on one kick chase and I genuinely thought it was one of our backs for a second. He's a bit of a unit too. You really get the sense that the next generation of players are going to move the game forward in this country, the baseline level of talent and athleticism is really impressive.

You just need a National coach that'll pick players before they're 30.

All those old men like steward, Smith, chessum etc do need to be looking over their shoulders.

[Margin__Walker]

Yep. Eddie's selections can often be confounding, but he's never had an issue with player age. Countless examples, but Tom Curry was playing international rugby at 18 iirc. That doesn't happen if you wait for players to spend years paying their dues before playing for the national team.

[fishfoodie]

The 2nd? 3rd? one is the real eye-opener, reminiscent of both the Simmonds and Louw tries in the Exeter/Quins final for the "how the fuck did he manage to score that?" factor. Looks good. Presumably his throwing's decent too if they had that many lineout drives from close range.

Quins had a young hooker in the cup game I hadn't seen before, he charged up on one kick chase and I genuinely thought it was one of our backs for a second. He's a bit of a unit too. You really get the sense that the next generation of players are going to move the game forward in this country, the baseline level of talent and athleticism is really impressive.

You just need a National coach that'll pick players before they're 30.

At this stage I don't really give a fuck about that, it's more about having a healthy and entertaining professional game that actually exists and has a future in this country. Eddie's a minor irritation compared to that right now.

Agreed. It's great to see the youngsters have the fitness, & the skills, & playing an entertaining brand of Rugby.

Rugby everywhere needs an entertaining spectacle, if it wants to survive financially.

[JM2K6]

Yeah, agree on the athleticism point. Some of the kids you see coming through from U18s into senior academies are pretty absurd.

Not just the forwards too. Just this weekend you see guys like Murley with an upright touchline hand off on Freeman and Arundell flat out bouncing back rows that go in for the hit on him .

It's a very watching-NZ-rugby feeling. Just loads of players able to do mad shit. They might not end up playing international rugby due to other weaknesses, but at heart it's a big group of players who are physically capable of the razzle dazzle and have the attitude to match, which is good fun

[Margin__Walker]

That's the irony really.

Whilst financially the pro game in England is dying on it's arse and the English teams aren't really equipped to compete in Europe (fwiw), the product is actually great. Premiership rugby is really entertaining, with a couple of mad games a weekend and tries the would have won try of the season a decade or two ago struggling to be the try of the week. In isolation, it's never been more fun to watch.

[sockwithaticket]

Yep. Eddie's selections can often be confounding, but he's never had an issue with player age. Countless examples, but Tom Curry was playing international rugby at 18 iirc. That doesn't happen if you wait for players to spend years paying their dues before playing for the national team.

If anything he's been too willing to chuck certain kids in. Martin and Maunder both earnt caps at 19 and have yet to pick up another. Wikipedia assures me Ted Hill has 2 caps, though I can only remember his 5 minute debut as 19/20 year old. Picking Blamire over McGuigan (until this most recent squad).

Not that every coach gets every decision right and 'good enough, old enough', but it does sometimes feel like Eddie's keen to find the next teen sensation ahead of a well performing player already in their 20s.

[Margin__Walker]

Yep. Eddie's selections can often be confounding, but he's never had an issue with player age. Countless examples, but Tom Curry was playing international rugby at 18 iirc. That doesn't happen if you wait for players to spend years paying their dues before playing for the national team.

If anything he's been too willing to chuck certain kids in. Martin and Maunder both earnt caps at 19 and have yet to pick up another. Wikipedia assures me Ted Hill has 2 caps, though I can only remember his 5 minute debut as 19/20 year old. Picking Blamire over McGuigan (until this most recent squad).

Not that every coach gets every decision right and 'good enough, old enough', but it does sometimes feel like Eddie's keen to find the next teen sensation ahead of a well performing player already in their 20s.

True. Martin and Maunder examples definitely stood out. Maunder I'll pass on as it meant we had someone other than Youngs to watch play 9, however briefly. I remember with Martin thinking 'Really?'. Decent enough prospect at the time, but there are lots of cracking back rows that he leapfrogged

[Kawazaki]

Eddie Jones will be the longest serving England coach of all time by the time the 6Ns finishes next year. There are still people who think he is great and just the coach that England need. I don't think that.

I think he peaked many years ago and much of his output nowadays is hackneyed bullshit. He boxes himself into corners that he has no need to walk into but it is his massive ego that gets in the way of him making decisions that are in the best interests of England. He's in it for Eddie Jones and nothing else. The continued selection of Ben Youngs was beyond a joke the last RWC let alone in the lead in to the next one. Jonny May admitted that he felt guilty getting picked in the latest England squad by Jones despite only playing twice in 2022 and neither of those games were this season.

I'm sure he won't have any shortage of offers when he finally leaves England but I'll be amazed if any top nation touches him with a bargepole ever again.

[inactionman]

Yep. Eddie's selections can often be confounding, but he's never had an issue with player age. Countless examples, but Tom Curry was playing international rugby at 18 iirc. That doesn't happen if you wait for players to spend years paying their dues before playing for the national team.

If anything he's been too willing to chuck certain kids in. Martin and Maunder both earnt caps at 19 and have yet to pick up another. Wikipedia assures me Ted Hill has 2 caps, though I can only remember his 5 minute debut as 19/20 year old. Picking Blamire over McGuigan (until this most recent squad).

Not that every coach gets every decision right and 'good enough, old enough', but it does sometimes feel like Eddie's keen to find the next teen sensation ahead of a well performing player already in their 20s.

This sounds exactly why we have a Saxons/B-Team (well, called the A Team for some reason) - give tyros a shot in the reserves and promote upwards from there. Not sure it really works quite like that though. Not sure it works at all.

[sockwithaticket]

Yep. Eddie's selections can often be confounding, but he's never had an issue with player age. Countless examples, but Tom Curry was playing international rugby at 18 iirc. That doesn't happen if you wait for players to spend years paying their dues before playing for the national team.

If anything he's been too willing to chuck certain kids in. Martin and Maunder both earnt caps at 19 and have yet to pick up another. Wikipedia assures me Ted Hill has 2 caps, though I can only remember his 5 minute debut as 19/20 year old. Picking Blamire over McGuigan (until this most recent squad).

Not that every coach gets every decision right and 'good enough, old enough', but it does sometimes feel like Eddie's keen to find the next teen sensation ahead of a well performing player already in their 20s.

This sounds exactly why we have a Saxons/B-Team (well, called the A Team for some reason) - give tyros a shot in the reserves and promote upwards from there. Not sure it really works quite like that though. Not sure it works at all.

I wish we could get the A teams going properly again. If nothing else the 'Saxons would beat the senior team' discussions were always fun.

The logistics are against it, sadly. The RFU and possibly IRFU might just about be able to get the teams going again, but there's not a lot of point doing it in that level of isolation.

[fishfoodie]

If anything he's been too willing to chuck certain kids in. Martin and Maunder both earnt caps at 19 and have yet to pick up another. Wikipedia assures me Ted Hill has 2 caps, though I can only remember his 5 minute debut as 19/20 year old. Picking Blamire over McGuigan (until this most recent squad).

Not that every coach gets every decision right and 'good enough, old enough', but it does sometimes feel like Eddie's keen to find the next teen sensation ahead of a well performing player already in their 20s.

This sounds exactly why we have a Saxons/B-Team (well, called the A Team for some reason) - give tyros a shot in the reserves and promote upwards from there. Not sure it really works quite like that though. Not sure it works at all.

I wish we could get the A teams going properly again. If nothing else the 'Saxons would beat the senior team' discussions were always fun.

The logistics are against it, sadly. The RFU and possibly IRFU might just about be able to get the teams going again, but there's not a lot of point doing it in that level of isolation.

Yeah, there's a big gap between the U20s, & the senior side, & the As should be how you fill it, as well as testing the occasional senior returning from injury.

It's probably unlikely we'll get the games back while the Unions finances are as bad as they are.

[Kawazaki]

The last thing the players need are more matches, and the clubs lose far too many of their squad for full test matches as it is. Adding in 3 or 4 'A' games as well would just be taking the piss.

[Margin__Walker]

Saxon's tours are all fun and games until your best player wrecks their ACL playing in one, as happened to Lewington for us in 2016.

Don't really see them coming back any time soon in this environment. Any additional games really have to have a commercial or real developmental purpose (as at the JWC for example). Saxon's tours were interesting, but I'm not sure they really moved the dial on too much.

[OomStruisbaai]

Paul Rosers join Bath Academy

Two talented English-qualified players will join the Bath Rugby Academy in January 2023.

Daniel Marais and Luke Graham, both pupils at Paul Roos Gymnasium in South Africa, will join the Blue, Black and White in the New Year after impressing at schoolboy level.

Luke Graham (wing) scored some excellent tries for WP and PRG.

[Margin__Walker]

No doubt pull a Nic Dolly, Alex Groves, Jed Walsh, Chandler Cunningham-South etc and be playing Eng U20s in the 6n.

Reminds me a bit of a young Jack Nowell.

[OomStruisbaai]

I was wondering why Luke didn't made the SA Schools team after scoring the winning try for WP in the CravenWeek final. Also did the same for Paul Roos vs Grey College.

[Oxbow]

Confirmed that Biggar is leaving Saints at the end of the season, doesn't say where to, but it's hard to begrudge him a decent payday in somewhere like Japan. Makes the Fin Smith rumours more likely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63146641

[SaintK]

Confirmed that Biggar is leaving Saints at the end of the season, doesn't say where to, but it's hard to begrudge him a decent payday in somewhere like Japan. Makes the Fin Smith rumours more likely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63146641

Good luck to him, deserves a decent retirement payday. Very good signing for Saints and hugely popular with the fans.
Has Fin Smith already signed for Saints as he is no longer contracted to Warriors?

[Oxbow]

Confirmed that Biggar is leaving Saints at the end of the season, doesn't say where to, but it's hard to begrudge him a decent payday in somewhere like Japan. Makes the Fin Smith rumours more likely.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63146641

Good luck to him, deserves a decent retirement payday. Very good signing for Saints and hugely popular with the fans.
Has Fin Smith already signed for Saints as he is no longer contracted to Warriors?

Nothing confirmed as far as I know. Saints were after him well before Worcester went tits up but with that and Biggar leaving it looks almost a certainty now. I think he's been injured for a while so maybe that is delaying things.

[JM2K6]

It'd be a great move for Fin Smith. Hope he can kick on.

Arundell flat out bouncing back rows that go in for the hit on him .

Literally just watched this and I honestly thought it was Creevy for a second. Just a total "get fucked" brick wall response to a big hit attempt followed by the backhand offload.

[SaintK]

Ollie Lawrence making an immediate debut for Bath against Gloucester on Saturday
Playing alongside Cam Redpath who he last played alongside for England U20's!

[Margin__Walker]

It'd be a great move for Fin Smith. Hope he can kick on.

Arundell flat out bouncing back rows that go in for the hit on him .

Literally just watched this and I honestly thought it was Creevy for a second. Just a total "get fucked" brick wall response to a big hit attempt followed by the backhand offload.

He's freakishly strong for a relatively normal looking outside back at his age. Read an interview somewhere where he said he borrowed some gym gear and spent the whole of lockdown a couple of years ago doing little other than strength training.