UK Home energy prices

[TB63]

Who's stocking up on candles then?..

[Slick]

Who's stocking up on candles then?..

We have bought absolutely shitloads from IKEA! Kids love it in the evening and all (most) of the lights are off.

[tabascoboy]

Who's stocking up on candles then?..

Got a few from years ago, but now realized I'm drastically of candlestick holders....

[Openside]

Who's stocking up on candles then?..

I should imagine the fire brigade will earn their money this winter rather than moonlighting building extensions etc.

[robmatic]

If I can put my holier than thou environmental hat on for a minute, a lot of this is what everyone should have been doing anyway to reduce their carbon footprint. They just couldn't be bothered and would rather let the planet go to shit.

Have to agree. I recycle like fuck and do everything else I can but I would have thought nothing about filling the kettle to full to make one cup of coffee or have loads of unnecessary lights on all over the house.

It really riles me when I see someone fill a kettle for a single cup of tea/coffee. Just one of those little things that irritates as you get older. I know I do things that aren't environmentally friendly too though, mostly leaving my computer on. Though at the moment, that's usually during the day when it's covered by the solar panels anyway. But that energy could be doing good elsewhere (even if we're getting paid a pittance for it).

I'm reasonably efficient when filling the kettle but still always end up heating too much water in it. We were gifted an expresso machine last year and actually noticed a difference in our electricity bill straight away, presumably from only heating/pressurising the exact quantity required - all those brews when you are working from home add up.

[TB63]

Who's stocking up on candles then?..

We have bought absolutely shitloads from IKEA! Kids love it in the evening and all (most) of the lights are off.

I've been collecting and restoring oil lamps for 40 yes, sold most when I moved but have a few left, couple of gallons of white spirit and I'm sorted, plus each burner gives off a Kw of heat as well..Win win...

[vball]

Re the kettle filling piece .... we have a motorhome and one of things we do is boil a whole kettle and fill a flask. This means when we are out on the road, when we stop, we do not need to turn the gas on and off again.
We also usually only have 1 hot meal per day.

a7kg gas cannister lasts us for many years,

[shaggy]

Re the kettle filling piece .... we have a motorhome and one of things we do is boil a whole kettle and fill a flask. This means when we are out on the road, when we stop, we do not need to turn the gas on and off again.
We also usually only have 1 hot meal per day.

a7kg gas cannister lasts us for many years,

The fact that most people have only just started taking notice to insulation and minimising energy waste when it hits their pocket shows that the climate emergency is just not that important to them.

Must be very frustrating that all the action taken by special interest groups disrupting various things is utterly irrelevant as the general public just don’t see it as a priority for legislation or government support until they can’t afford their summer holiday next year or a new car.

[Slick]

Re the kettle filling piece .... we have a motorhome and one of things we do is boil a whole kettle and fill a flask. This means when we are out on the road, when we stop, we do not need to turn the gas on and off again.
We also usually only have 1 hot meal per day.

a7kg gas cannister lasts us for many years,

The fact that most people have only just started taking notice to insulation and minimising energy waste when it hits their pocket shows that the climate emergency is just not that important to them.

Must be very frustrating that all the action taken by special interest groups disrupting various things is utterly irrelevant as the general public just don’t see it as a priority for legislation or government support until they can’t afford their summer holiday next year or a new car.

Sadly true, the vast, vast majority don’t give a shit

[C69]

Re the kettle filling piece .... we have a motorhome and one of things we do is boil a whole kettle and fill a flask. This means when we are out on the road, when we stop, we do not need to turn the gas on and off again.
We also usually only have 1 hot meal per day.

a7kg gas cannister lasts us for many years,

The fact that most people have only just started taking notice to insulation and minimising energy waste when it hits their pocket shows that the climate emergency is just not that important to them.

Must be very frustrating that all the action taken by special interest groups disrupting various things is utterly irrelevant as the general public just don’t see it as a priority for legislation or government support until they can’t afford their summer holiday next year or a new car.

Sadly true, the vast, vast majority don’t give a shit

Cavity wall insulation was the best measure I have taken, the loft is also fully insulated.I have now replaced my oldboilerof 15 years and installed a new condesnsing boiler with a functioning thermostat. Previously just blasted the heat out by turning the boiler up
The cavity wall insulation was an immediate help and has kept the house warmand comfy.
I do regret having to replace all the old sash windows and when we moved in but they were basically letting all the heat out and double glazing was a must.
I don't really think I can do much more tbh. That said atm it's 17 centigrade so it's too hot for heating or lighting one of the multi fuel stoves.
Fingers crossed for a mild winter.
The electric underfloor heating in the Conservatory willnow be on to maintain a constant 21 degrees until next spring. I hate to think how much that costs but hey ho.

[lemonhead]

The fact that most people have only just started taking notice to insulation and minimising energy waste when it hits their pocket shows that the climate emergency is just not that important to them.

Must be very frustrating that all the action taken by special interest groups disrupting various things is utterly irrelevant as the general public just don’t see it as a priority for legislation or government support until they can’t afford their summer holiday next year or a new car.

Sadly true, the vast, vast majority don’t give a shit

Cavity wall insulation was the best measure I have taken, the loft is also fully insulated.I have now replaced my oldboilerof 15 years and installed a new condesnsing boiler with a functioning thermostat. Previously just blasted the heat out by turning the boiler up
The cavity wall insulation was an immediate help and has kept the house warmand comfy.
I do regret having to replace all the old sash windows and when we moved in but they were basically letting all the heat out and double glazing was a must.
I don't really think I can do much more tbh. That said atm it's 17 centigrade so it's too hot for heating or lighting one of the multi fuel stoves.
Fingers crossed for a mild winter.
The electric underfloor heating in the Conservatory willnow be on to maintain a constant 21 degrees until next spring. I hate to think how much that costs but hey ho.

Literally made all the difference for us.

Just about scraped on to the ECO4 scheme which should be front and centre to any government plans not to piss money up the wall (but no doubt involved too many handouts of mini white polystyrene balls). Genuinely feels like a new house.

[fishfoodie]

Sadly true, the vast, vast majority don’t give a shit

Cavity wall insulation was the best measure I have taken, the loft is also fully insulated.I have now replaced my oldboilerof 15 years and installed a new condesnsing boiler with a functioning thermostat. Previously just blasted the heat out by turning the boiler up
The cavity wall insulation was an immediate help and has kept the house warmand comfy.
I do regret having to replace all the old sash windows and when we moved in but they were basically letting all the heat out and double glazing was a must.
I don't really think I can do much more tbh. That said atm it's 17 centigrade so it's too hot for heating or lighting one of the multi fuel stoves.
Fingers crossed for a mild winter.
The electric underfloor heating in the Conservatory willnow be on to maintain a constant 21 degrees until next spring. I hate to think how much that costs but hey ho.

Literally made all the difference for us.

Just about scraped on to the ECO4 scheme which should be front and centre to any government plans not to piss money up the wall (but no doubt involved too many handouts of mini white polystyrene balls). Genuinely feels like a new house.

Do you pay VAT if you do these kinds of home improvements ?

It would seem to me be a no brainer to waive VAT, & heavily favor local material suppliers* for any of these schemes.


* And obviously I don't mean buying stuff from China, & putting a sticker on it to make it, "Local"

[lemonhead]

Off your own bat, I'm sure. ECO4's quite a niche sounding concept in theory, homeowners on some form of benefits but surely something to expand out.

Either way the VAT side would be piss easy to implement.

[Paddington Bear]

Any advice on cheap (ish) ways to better insulate a house? Ours loses heat through certain rooms alarmingly quickly.

[TB63]

What's the build?

[Paddington Bear]

What's the build?

Brick with pebbledash, 1930s

[petej]

Any advice on cheap (ish) ways to better insulate a house? Ours loses heat through certain rooms alarmingly quickly.

Block up any obvious holes and gaps in existing insulation/walls. As previously mentioned on this board thermal blinds and curtains make a big difference. Take the roof insulation up to 300mm from what ever used to be standard. I assume no cavities in the walls and external wall insulation is expensive. Also if you have thermostatic radiator valves set them properly so they are not having a spat with your thermostat. Bleed your radiators. Last two are obvious.

[inactionman]

Re the kettle filling piece .... we have a motorhome and one of things we do is boil a whole kettle and fill a flask. This means when we are out on the road, when we stop, we do not need to turn the gas on and off again.
We also usually only have 1 hot meal per day.

a7kg gas cannister lasts us for many years,

The fact that most people have only just started taking notice to insulation and minimising energy waste when it hits their pocket shows that the climate emergency is just not that important to them.

Must be very frustrating that all the action taken by special interest groups disrupting various things is utterly irrelevant as the general public just don’t see it as a priority for legislation or government support until they can’t afford their summer holiday next year or a new car.

I'm hoping this mini-shock does serve as the necessary kick up the pants for a lot of people, but it's worth bearing in mind that improving energy efficiency is a lot easer said than done in many homes.

In our old and our current house we would need to strip all the interiors out to fit insulation beneath the plasterboard for the external facing walls - they are all solid wall, early 1800s builds - and it's just not viable in any short term to do this. The current fuel price hikes will just shift the dial on many people's test of reasonableness and in terms of what costs and pain they'll incur.

In the current house we're going to have to cut into our eaves to insulate, unless we can get in via the roof which has its own problems, and this is going to cost a fortune which is all on top of other changes we'll need. We're also going to need to double-glaze the copola, replace the front door, replace a number of older windows. Essentially we've inherited an energy efficiency mess - we chose to buy the house so it's on us - and it's going to take a long, long time to sort.

Of course many of the easier measures such as insulating accessible loft spaces, decent curtains etc should be no-brainers, but the really substantial changes can't be done overnight.

[TB63]

What's the build?

Brick with pebbledash, 1930s

Assuming no cavity then..
You can get plasterboard with a bonded 25mm Celotex to it, used it on the extension roof here and made a big difference, you can also use it on the walls but it's a full redecorating job, moving rads, electrics etc.
Secondary double glazing, even the cheap film works.

Get a woodburner!..

[Slick]

Feeling a bit smug that we moved from an old draughty flat to a 10 year old place a couple of months back. Can't quite believe the difference in terms of insulation etc. We usually have the back door open all day and into the night, but it got a bit chilly yesterday evening so shut them early and within a few minutes the place was feeling comfortable, we would have needed heating and couple of hours in the old place

[petej]

Re the kettle filling piece .... we have a motorhome and one of things we do is boil a whole kettle and fill a flask. This means when we are out on the road, when we stop, we do not need to turn the gas on and off again.
We also usually only have 1 hot meal per day.

a7kg gas cannister lasts us for many years,

The fact that most people have only just started taking notice to insulation and minimising energy waste when it hits their pocket shows that the climate emergency is just not that important to them.

Must be very frustrating that all the action taken by special interest groups disrupting various things is utterly irrelevant as the general public just don’t see it as a priority for legislation or government support until they can’t afford their summer holiday next year or a new car.

I'm hoping this mini-shock does serve as the necessary kick up the pants for a lot of people, but it's worth bearing in mind that improving energy efficiency is a lot easer said than done in many homes.

In our old and our current house we would need to strip all the interiors out to fit insulation beneath the plasterboard for the external facing walls - they are all solid wall, early 1800s builds - and it's just not viable in any short term to do this. The current fuel price hikes will just shift the dial on many people's test of reasonableness and in terms of what costs and pain they'll incur.

In the current house we're going to have to cut into our eaves to insulate, unless we can get in via the roof which has its own problems, and this is going to cost a fortune which is all on top of other changes we'll need. We're also going to need to double-glaze the copola, replace the front door, replace a number of older windows. Essentially we've inherited an energy efficiency mess - we chose to buy the house so it's on us - and it's going to take a long, long time to sort.

Of course many of the easier measures such as insulating accessible loft spaces, decent curtains etc should be no-brainers, but the really substantial changes can't be done overnight.

A massive number of people won't have done the easier measures you state so the campaign despite nannying would have been worth it. Both my retired neighbours are classic examples- new large petrol cars with big engines in the last year or so but no upgrades for energy efficiency or generation.

[inactionman]

Feeling a bit smug that we moved from an old draughty flat to a 10 year old place a couple of months back. Can't quite believe the difference in terms of insulation etc. We usually have the back door open all day and into the night, but it got a bit chilly yesterday evening so shut them early and within a few minutes the place was feeling comfortable, we would have needed heating and couple of hours in the old place

I've got a mate who is looking to buy a place out in Fife, new build with its own solar farm and energy rated at 100%/100 Standard Assessment Points.

If you design it that way, to be energy efficient, it's reasonably easy to do - 100% takes some doing but it is viable. New builds are night-and-day compared to older houses.

On that point, there's no realistic way we'll get our current home above around 70% without major rebuild. It's very, very difficult to make homes energy efficient after the fact.

[inactionman]

The fact that most people have only just started taking notice to insulation and minimising energy waste when it hits their pocket shows that the climate emergency is just not that important to them.

Must be very frustrating that all the action taken by special interest groups disrupting various things is utterly irrelevant as the general public just don’t see it as a priority for legislation or government support until they can’t afford their summer holiday next year or a new car.

I'm hoping this mini-shock does serve as the necessary kick up the pants for a lot of people, but it's worth bearing in mind that improving energy efficiency is a lot easer said than done in many homes.

In our old and our current house we would need to strip all the interiors out to fit insulation beneath the plasterboard for the external facing walls - they are all solid wall, early 1800s builds - and it's just not viable in any short term to do this. The current fuel price hikes will just shift the dial on many people's test of reasonableness and in terms of what costs and pain they'll incur.

In the current house we're going to have to cut into our eaves to insulate, unless we can get in via the roof which has its own problems, and this is going to cost a fortune which is all on top of other changes we'll need. We're also going to need to double-glaze the copola, replace the front door, replace a number of older windows. Essentially we've inherited an energy efficiency mess - we chose to buy the house so it's on us - and it's going to take a long, long time to sort.

Of course many of the easier measures such as insulating accessible loft spaces, decent curtains etc should be no-brainers, but the really substantial changes can't be done overnight.

A massive number of people won't have done the easier measures you state so the campaign despite nannying would have been worth it. Both my retired neighbours are classic examples- new large petrol cars with big engines in the last year or so but no upgrades for energy efficiency or generation.

Yep, absolutely. Many people are trying within reasonable bounds, others just don't seem to care.

The only reason I really made my initial point is that everyone's situation differs, and it's unfortunate that this price shock impacts everyone the same way. Some need the kick up the arse, some could do without the kick in the knackers.

[tabascoboy]

One thing I need to do is replace old external doors at some point. Especially the front door which is north-facing and therefore gets the full power of cold winds, though I've done my best to draughtproof it has only a single glazed window on which I add a film over the winter FWIW. Any recommendations for the door material? Is composite better for insulation than wood? Hard to get advice from sellers as they obviously suggest the most expensive option...there are no conservation issues to consider.

[inactionman]

One thing I need to do is replace old external doors at some point. Especially the front door which is north-facing and therefore gets the full power of cold winds, though I've done my best to draughtproof it has only a single glazed window on which I add a film over the winter FWIW. Any recommendations for the door material? Is composite better for insulation than wood? Hard to get advice from sellers as they obviously suggest the most expensive option...there are no conservation issues to consider.

We're also looking into this, which I mention just to remind me to keep an eye on any response you get!

The previous owners have really done a number on the door, they got rid of the threshold to get stepless access and have - for reasons that utterly escape me - have fitted a upvc-style locking mechanism around the edges of what was previously a lovely old town-house style door. It's not any more secure, the handle if so far over we scrape knuckles on the frame, and it looks appalling.

We're lucky to have our front door opening into a small hall/boot room, and we've a large single pane door between the porch and the main hall - fitting a full length curtain over this single pane door has killed any remaining drafts and it's definitely a lot warmer because of it. Daft question, have you tried a curtain? (only realistically works if you're in the house, of course)

[TB63]

Modern UPVC external doors are double glazed with a sandwich of closed cell insulation inside. Good thermal barrier..

[tabascoboy]

One thing I need to do is replace old external doors at some point. Especially the front door which is north-facing and therefore gets the full power of cold winds, though I've done my best to draughtproof it has only a single glazed window on which I add a film over the winter FWIW. Any recommendations for the door material? Is composite better for insulation than wood? Hard to get advice from sellers as they obviously suggest the most expensive option...there are no conservation issues to consider.

We're also looking into this, which I mention just to remind me to keep an eye on any response you get!

The previous owners have really done a number on the door, they got rid of the threshold to get stepless access and have - for reasons that utterly escape me - have fitted a upvc-style locking mechanism around the edges of what was previously a lovely old town-house style door. It's not any more secure, the handle if so far over we scrape knuckles on the frame, and it looks appalling.

We're lucky to have our front door opening into a small hall/boot room, and we've a large single pane door between the porch and the main hall - fitting a full length curtain over this single pane door has killed any remaining drafts and it's definitely a lot warmer because of it. Daft question, have you tried a curtain? (only realistically works if you're in the house, of course)

Have thought about a curtain as a quick fix, but really thing the door and frame need replacing. Letterbox draught excluder inside came off and won't stay on so that gets covered as well for the winter

[tabascoboy]

Modern UPVC external doors are double glazed with a sandwich of closed cell insulation inside. Good thermal barrier..

I see they talk about u values and the lower the better, but never give any actual examples

[TB63]

Modern UPVC external doors are double glazed with a sandwich of closed cell insulation inside. Good thermal barrier..

I see they talk about u values and the lower the better, but never give any actual examples

Quick search shows that any new door must have a minimum u value of 1.6..

[tabascoboy]

Modern UPVC external doors are double glazed with a sandwich of closed cell insulation inside. Good thermal barrier..

I see they talk about u values and the lower the better, but never give any actual examples

Quick search shows that any new door must have a minimum u value of 1.6..

Thanks, no idea what my current doors are but being wood panelled ( not solid) and single glaze glass might be in double figures!

[dkm57]

New composite, triple glazed door ordered for the back/kitchen which is the most exposed room on the house (little sun and prevailing wind). Should make a big difference, the more we do the more tweaks I realise could be done. A 'welly porch' on that doorway would be a good idea as would redoing the internal door from the sun porch to the hall at the other entrance.

[inactionman]

I've also just looked at our mortgage, fixed rate ending in 3 months and best current deal is another £500 a month. Great. Afraid that's no energy efficiency improvements for 2 years.

[Raggs]

I've also just looked at our mortgage, fixed rate ending in 3 months and best current deal is another £500 a month. Great. Afraid that's no energy efficiency improvements for 2 years.

Jesus mate, that's harsh. Just checked ours, it'd be an extra £600 a month. Feeling extremely lucky that it's a relatively new 5 year fix (still more than 4 years to go), that extra expense, along with energy costs, would really make things very hard.

[inactionman]

I've also just looked at our mortgage, fixed rate ending in 3 months and best current deal is another £500 a month. Great. Afraid that's no energy efficiency improvements for 2 years.

Jesus mate, that's harsh. Just checked ours, it'd be an extra £600 a month. Feeling extremely lucky that it's a relatively new 5 year fix (still more than 4 years to go), that extra expense, along with energy costs, would really make things very hard.

We could only get a 2 year fixed when we moved, and in any case our mortgage advisor was confident that the rates wouldn't move much in that time. He obviously couldn't predict Vlad going mad, or some set of lunatics giving Liz and Kwasi the keys to the treasury.

General consensus is that it'll settle down the back end of next year when inflation's a bit more controlled, so we'll probably go for a 2 year fixed again and then re-fix when it's les mental. It's all guesswork and supposition, who can predict what'll happen next.

We can just about service it, but we'll need to park some of the renovations for a few years which is a bit galling.

[Slick]

I've also just looked at our mortgage, fixed rate ending in 3 months and best current deal is another £500 a month. Great. Afraid that's no energy efficiency improvements for 2 years.

Jesus mate, that's harsh. Just checked ours, it'd be an extra £600 a month. Feeling extremely lucky that it's a relatively new 5 year fix (still more than 4 years to go), that extra expense, along with energy costs, would really make things very hard.

We could only get a 2 year fixed when we moved, and in any case our mortgage advisor was confident that the rates wouldn't move much in that time. He obviously couldn't predict Vlad going mad, or some set of lunatics giving Liz and Kwasi the keys to the treasury.

General consensus is that it'll settle down the back end of next year when inflation's a bit more controlled, so we'll probably go for a 2 year fixed again and then re-fix when it's les mental. It's all guesswork and supposition, who can predict what'll happen next.

We can just about service it, but we'll need to park some of the renovations for a few years which is a bit galling.

We got our first mortgage 3 months ago on a 3 year fixed. If we applied now we wouldn't have a hope of getting one and if it wasn't fixed we would be in a spot of bother. Got a bit lucky. A lot changes in 3 months apparently.

[inactionman]

Jesus mate, that's harsh. Just checked ours, it'd be an extra £600 a month. Feeling extremely lucky that it's a relatively new 5 year fix (still more than 4 years to go), that extra expense, along with energy costs, would really make things very hard.

We could only get a 2 year fixed when we moved, and in any case our mortgage advisor was confident that the rates wouldn't move much in that time. He obviously couldn't predict Vlad going mad, or some set of lunatics giving Liz and Kwasi the keys to the treasury.

General consensus is that it'll settle down the back end of next year when inflation's a bit more controlled, so we'll probably go for a 2 year fixed again and then re-fix when it's les mental. It's all guesswork and supposition, who can predict what'll happen next.

We can just about service it, but we'll need to park some of the renovations for a few years which is a bit galling.

We got our first mortgage 3 months ago on a 3 year fixed. If we applied now we wouldn't have a hope of getting one and if it wasn't fixed we would be in a spot of bother. Got a bit lucky. A lot changes in 3 months apparently.

It's gone south a lot more quickly than I'd have thought. The way I'm consoling myself is that we've had a good few years of dirt-chap mortgages and we're a bit closer to normalcy - but annoying nonetheless.

(I caught you'd moved earlier in thread, you still Stockbridge way?)

[C69]

Thank fuck I overpaid my mortgage for years so now mortgage free.
My friend in work however was just about to sort her mortgage out on the basis of what she could afford etc and within a weekend her mortage payments that she had budgeted for went up by £300 a month and another work colleague had theirs withdrawn.
Alla coincidence btw nothing to do with the fiscal event

[Slick]

We could only get a 2 year fixed when we moved, and in any case our mortgage advisor was confident that the rates wouldn't move much in that time. He obviously couldn't predict Vlad going mad, or some set of lunatics giving Liz and Kwasi the keys to the treasury.

General consensus is that it'll settle down the back end of next year when inflation's a bit more controlled, so we'll probably go for a 2 year fixed again and then re-fix when it's les mental. It's all guesswork and supposition, who can predict what'll happen next.

We can just about service it, but we'll need to park some of the renovations for a few years which is a bit galling.

We got our first mortgage 3 months ago on a 3 year fixed. If we applied now we wouldn't have a hope of getting one and if it wasn't fixed we would be in a spot of bother. Got a bit lucky. A lot changes in 3 months apparently.

It's gone south a lot more quickly than I'd have thought. The way I'm consoling myself is that we've had a good few years of dirt-chap mortgages and we're a bit closer to normalcy - but annoying nonetheless.

(I caught you'd moved earlier in thread, you still Stockbridge way?)

Moved to Portobello, have to say we are all loving it.

[inactionman]

We got our first mortgage 3 months ago on a 3 year fixed. If we applied now we wouldn't have a hope of getting one and if it wasn't fixed we would be in a spot of bother. Got a bit lucky. A lot changes in 3 months apparently.

It's gone south a lot more quickly than I'd have thought. The way I'm consoling myself is that we've had a good few years of dirt-chap mortgages and we're a bit closer to normalcy - but annoying nonetheless.

(I caught you'd moved earlier in thread, you still Stockbridge way?)

Moved to Portobello, have to say we are all loving it.

Nice - we had a look there when we moved 2 years back but nothing in our price range. The front at weekends is just a nice place to be.

We're down there a fair old bit, took the kids for lunch in the espy and marvelled at the awesome kiddie menu

[Slick]

It's gone south a lot more quickly than I'd have thought. The way I'm consoling myself is that we've had a good few years of dirt-chap mortgages and we're a bit closer to normalcy - but annoying nonetheless.

(I caught you'd moved earlier in thread, you still Stockbridge way?)

Moved to Portobello, have to say we are all loving it.

Nice - we had a look there when we moved 2 years back but nothing in our price range. The front at weekends is just a nice place to be.

We're down there a fair old bit, took the kids for lunch in the espy and marvelled at the awesome kiddie menu

, must say I hadn't spotted that. It's a great place for the kids, they spend almost all their time on the beach. Sunday morning on the front is just brilliant, so many groups meeting up for various reasons and a great atmosphere.

We got lucky with our place, heard loads of horror stories about how much over the odds we would have to pay and would end up putting in 10's of offers before we got one. As it turned out we put in 2 offers, one at valuation and one just over "offers over" and both came back in minutes accepting.... not really sure how that happened