Stop voting for fucking Tories

[TB63]

[fishfoodie]

I didn't know called into phone in shows ?, or is it Mick,or one of the other disciples

[Paddington Bear]

Brexit is the yardstick - Britain has a large civil service and diplomatic corps that got completely overwhelmed by leaving a 40 year union, leaving a 300 year old one (that is much deeper) without most of that will sink the Scottish Government for at least a decade.
Not to mention that the SNP are perfectly capable of spinning fantasies up there with any Redwood or Baker - see the constant hedging on currency and the laughable suggestion that the rUK government will pay pensions.

Not to diminish the size of the tasks (both real and potential), but you seem to be absolving the Tories of their role in the clusterfuck and blaming it instead on the task just being too big a one to achieve/ the civil service. They've had no clear direction from incompetent leadership - the most competent and best served civil servants in the world would fail at organising a piss up in a brewery under those conditions.

While the SNP are no doubt capable of their own incompetencies, I refuse to believe they could come anywhere close to the scale of this generation of Tories (plenty of rational Tories in the past, and I'm sure present, they have just lost control of the party)!

As for pensions, while it will no doubt be another political football, I really don't see it as being the major obstacle that others do. My mother hasn't worked in the UK since the late 60's and yet still receives a very small portion of a UK pension every month. You get paid out of the pot you paid into, inevitably many people will end up being paid from two different pension pots, though not a full share from either, but so be it.

No I'm not - I'm pointing out exiting unions is a colossal task that proved beyond not only the Tory Party (clearly) but also the British civil service which encompasses a pretty well respected diplomatic corps. Lack of political leadership didn't help but I'm not convinced it would have mattered - political imperatives demanded a reasonably swift exit and that became uncontrollable. Such imperatives would also exist for the SNP.
The moral of the story is that even a very well organised SNP and Scottish civil service would find themselves choked by it in the medium term, and as others can allude to better than I the SNP lacks depth below the top and is perfectly adept at engaging in nationalist flights of fancy as much as the Tory party.

Pensions is just one example and not meant to be exhaustive, but to pick up on it there is no 'pot' and they are funded out of current tax revenues, reason #1 this would be a shitfight of epic proportions.
The wider point being that the Brexit negotiations were just a taste of how complex it could get - breaking up the UK would likely involve tortuous and fairly emotional debates around citizenship, there's at least a couple of Scots on this bored and at least half their starting XV who may on paper be more likely eligible for English citizenship

[PCPhil]

Hilarious how she went for the Torygraph and Scum for first questions and even they told her to go.

[JM2K6]

[Lobby]

Gilts we’re doing OK today, until Truss’s presser, at which point they shot up:

“The 10-year gilt yield, having fallen as low as 3.899% in early trade, was on track to close at 4.33%, up 13 basis points on the day - a huge intraday swing.”

Every time the Cretin opens her mouth, the UK’s economic position worsens. At this rate, unless the Tories defenestrate her by next week, we’ll end with an economy like Venezuela’s

[sturginho]

[fishfoodie]

Deeply, deeply, undemocratic, & showing a total contempt for the British public, so entirely possible

[PornDog]

No I'm not - I'm pointing out exiting unions is a colossal task that proved beyond not only the Tory Party (clearly) but also the British civil service which encompasses a pretty well respected diplomatic corps. Lack of political leadership didn't help but I'm not convinced it would have mattered - political imperatives demanded a reasonably swift exit and that became uncontrollable. Such imperatives would also exist for the SNP.
The moral of the story is that even a very well organised SNP and Scottish civil service would find themselves choked by it in the medium term, and as others can allude to better than I the SNP lacks depth below the top and is perfectly adept at engaging in nationalist flights of fancy as much as the Tory party.

Pensions is just one example and not meant to be exhaustive, but to pick up on it there is no 'pot' and they are funded out of current tax revenues, reason #1 this would be a shitfight of epic proportions.
The wider point being that the Brexit negotiations were just a taste of how complex it could get - breaking up the UK would likely involve tortuous and fairly emotional debates around citizenship, there's at least a couple of Scots on this bored and at least half their starting XV who may on paper be more likely eligible for English citizenship

I don't massively disagree with your overall sentiment - exiting the EU was/is a colossal task, much as it would be for Scotland to exit the UK. However I strongly disagree with regard to the degree Tory incompetence has contributed to the scale of the task. How civil servants are supposed to go about achieving goals when the goals themselves either haven't been defined, are actively being undermined through backslapping corruption, or so fanciful in the extreme as them being completely and utterly pointless, I do not know.

Competent leadership, starting with Cameron having an actual fucking plan before the referendum (beyond simply tossing a coin in the air and hoping it would turn up his way) for what the next steps would be. I have no doubt that competent leadership would have had a signed, sealed and delivered (and most importantly accommodated) Brexit years ago. Instead it is an ever ongoing shit show.

Again I understand there isn't a 'pot' per se for pensions, but the principal is the same, its just a matter of working out the formula. While there is plenty of scope for arguing over the minutia (okay that's maybe under playing it slightly), the broad strokes of those principals don't leave much room for complete roughshodding. This does of course require reasonable and fair dealing on both sides, which maybe a lack of faith in is where you're coming from.

[petej]

No I'm not - I'm pointing out exiting unions is a colossal task that proved beyond not only the Tory Party (clearly) but also the British civil service which encompasses a pretty well respected diplomatic corps. Lack of political leadership didn't help but I'm not convinced it would have mattered - political imperatives demanded a reasonably swift exit and that became uncontrollable. Such imperatives would also exist for the SNP.
The moral of the story is that even a very well organised SNP and Scottish civil service would find themselves choked by it in the medium term, and as others can allude to better than I the SNP lacks depth below the top and is perfectly adept at engaging in nationalist flights of fancy as much as the Tory party.

Pensions is just one example and not meant to be exhaustive, but to pick up on it there is no 'pot' and they are funded out of current tax revenues, reason #1 this would be a shitfight of epic proportions.
The wider point being that the Brexit negotiations were just a taste of how complex it could get - breaking up the UK would likely involve tortuous and fairly emotional debates around citizenship, there's at least a couple of Scots on this bored and at least half their starting XV who may on paper be more likely eligible for English citizenship

I don't massively disagree with your overall sentiment - exiting the EU was/is a colossal task, much as it would be for Scotland to exit the UK. However I strongly disagree with regard to the degree Tory incompetence has contributed to the scale of the task. How civil servants are supposed to go about achieving goals when the goals themselves either haven't been defined, are actively being undermined through backslapping corruption, or so fanciful in the extreme as them being completely and utterly pointless, I do not know.

Competent leadership, starting with Cameron having an actual fucking plan before the referendum (beyond simply tossing a coin in the air and hoping it would turn up his way) for what the next steps would be. I have no doubt that competent leadership would have had a signed, sealed and delivered (and most importantly accommodated) Brexit years ago. Instead it is an ever ongoing shit show.

Again I understand there isn't a 'pot' per se for pensions, but the principal is the same, its just a matter of working out the formula. While there is plenty of scope for arguing over the minutia (okay that's maybe under playing it slightly), the broad strokes of those principals don't leave much room for complete roughshodding. This does of course require reasonable and fair dealing on both sides, which maybe a lack of faith in is where you're coming from.

I would also point out the SNP have a very clear aim in how they want to align themselves by wanting to be in the EU this gives very clear known requirements and targets. With brexit fuck knows what they want even at this stage when the hse have put out requests in materials the input they will get back (mostly align with the EU) will be exactly what the government don't want. A civil servant friend who was wanted to work on brexit said that it was like dealing with ostriches who had buried their heads in reinforced concrete.

[Torquemada 1420]

Every time the Cretin opens her mouth, the UK’s economic position worsens. At this rate, unless the Tories defenestrate her by next week, we’ll end with an economy like Venezuela’s

Minus the oil to bail the UK out.

What odds it'll be back at 5% on Monday and then we'll see in Bailey has to resign if the BofE back tracks too = both the Government and the central bank look like asses.

[Insane_Homer]

[tabascoboy]

[Biffer]

Pretty good piece about what this means in the wider Co text and where it came from.

Although many of us saw this coming way back before 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Other

[dpedin]

Pretty good piece about what this means in the wider Co text and where it came from.

Although many of us saw this coming way back before 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Other

Agreed it was obvious that Brexit was a disastrous policy - economically, politically and socially - driven by jingoism, xenophobia and racism fed by UKIP/Tory Government and right wing media. It was also primarily an English phenomena mirroring the 'Little Englander' view of the world involving England winning two world wars single handedly and having run the world for 100's of years. It was inevitable that it would lead to weaker economy, lower growth, shrinking workforce, etc. But hey ho we got 'Sovrenti' back ... only the stupid planks who voted to leave ever thought we had lost it! The Tory party has destroyed itself trying to demonstrate it was a 'good thing' and have had to lurch further and further right in order to protect this illusion. Unfortunately they have destroyed the country in the process. What a feckin shitshow of crap promoted and defended by utter tossers.

[Slick]

Pretty good piece about what this means in the wider Co text and where it came from.

Although many of us saw this coming way back before 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Other

Agreed it was obvious that Brexit was a disastrous policy - economically, politically and socially - driven by jingoism, xenophobia and racism fed by UKIP/Tory Government and right wing media. It was also primarily an English phenomena mirroring the 'Little Englander' view of the world involving England winning two world wars single handedly and having run the world for 100's of years. It was inevitable that it would lead to weaker economy, lower growth, shrinking workforce, etc. But hey ho we got 'Sovrenti' back ... only the stupid planks who voted to leave ever thought we had lost it! The Tory party has destroyed itself trying to demonstrate it was a 'good thing' and have had to lurch further and further right in order to protect this illusion. Unfortunately they have destroyed the country in the process. What a feckin shitshow of crap promoted and defended by utter tossers.

Swap a few names around and it sounds like something very familiar

[tabascoboy]

[fishfoodie]

Fucking hell. That's a appalling idea

Is she going to let people self-prescribe painkillers too ?

[PornDog]

Wow, that is colossally fucking stupid!

[tabascoboy]

Good grief, has the Torygraph been taken over today?! Strange to see this comment headline in there of all places

Project Fear was right all along
Six years of policy confusion and ineptitude has brought a calamitous loss of standing

Call it revenge of the Remainer Establishment, if you like. The revolution in the British economy promised by Leave campaigners six years ago finally seemed to go the way of all revolutionary movements this week: it ended up eating itself.

Downbeat predictions by the Treasury and others on the economic consequences of leaving the EU, contemptuously dismissed at the time by Brexit campaigners as "Project Fear", have been on a long fuse, but they have turned out to be overwhelmingly correct, and if anything have underestimated both the calamitous loss of international standing and the scale of the damage that six years of policy confusion and ineptitude has imposed on the country. A serious house price correction, substantially higher interest rates and a permanently impaired exchange rate may be the least of it.

Credibility is all in politics, finance and economics; this week was the point at which the UK Government finally managed to lose all last remaining vestiges of it. Britain's trusted institutional framework, together with its hard won reputation for sound money and certainty in policy, all went down the pan. Perhaps I exaggerate, but not since the humiliation of the International Monetary Fund bailout in 1976 have we seen an unravelling quite as spectacular. This too from a Tory Government with a substantial overall majority. It is scarcely believable.

These are dark days for Tory MPs, who will be acutely aware that loss of reputation for economic competence is electoral poison for their party. As the former Chancellor, Philip Hammond, has already observed, that reputation has been comprehensively trashed by what's just occurred.

I feel sorry for Kwasi Kwarteng. He now bears the dubious distinction of being Britain's second shortest serving Chancellor ever after Ian Macleod, who died in office almost immediately after being appointed.

Others have been chasing the silver medal hard in the turmoil of the last several years; Sajid Javid lasted just six months, and Nadhim Zahawi only eight weeks. Anyone would think we had become Italy or Greece, such is the turnover in key government positions and the growing sense of political, economic and fiscal instability.

Nor is the storm by any means yet over. Stripped of all authority and credibility, it is hard to see how Liz Truss, the Prime Minister, can survive the traumas of the past several weeks. As Norman Lamont said of John Major, she's in office but not in power.

The U-turn on corporation tax, the scapegoating of Kwarteng, and his replacement with the supposedly steadying hand of Jeremy Hunt is unlikely to save her. The cut in spending plans that she implied on Friday may be what the markets demand, but politically it threatens finally to destroy her.

Kwarteng was a likeable Chancellor with many of the right intentions. He is not wrong about the need for radical action to correct multiple long term weaknesses and deficiencies in the UK economy. Many of the supply side measures announced in the mini-Budget were more than welcome, and might in time have made a significant difference to the UK's long term growth trajectory.

Yet the unfunded tax cuts were always going to be a bridge too far. Fiscal policy 101: you do not attempt to do a permanent fiscal giveaway against the backdrop of sharply rising inflation and interest rates, a punishing energy crisis, a current account deficit swollen to an unprecedented 8 percent of GDP, and a seemingly intractable black hole at the heart of the public finances. To have rejected independent assessment of the plans by the Office for Budget Responsibility only further added to the sense of alarm in financial markets.

When we talk about "financial markets", it is important to note that they are not some god-like arbiter of policy whose judgement on matters is beyond challenge, but essentially just a lot of excitable children who, with herd-like conformity, are merely chasing the money.

The idea that the £18bn a year of corporation tax revenues that seemed to be at the centre of this week's rout would make the difference between national solvency and insolvency is almost beyond ridiculous. It would not have done. Yet sadly it became totemic in a wider loss of political and economic credibility, which has been cumulative now over a number of years.

It is perhaps not so surprising that the passionate Remainer who became a passionate Brexiteer should choose to throw her Chancellor to the wolves in order to save her own skin. Yet the fact is that Truss was in lockstep with Kwarteng in challenging "economic orthodoxy" and the institutions that were its standard bearers. On the campaign trail she was, if anything, even more of a zealot for economic radicalism than Kwarteng. In any case, she plainly didn't understand the sometimes destructive way markets interact with policy. It's been a rude awakening.

In the end, it was Andrew Bailey, Governor of the Bank of England, who brought matters to a head, by insisting that there would be no extension to the bond buying programme he had initiated to counter forced selling by UK pension funds.

This has been widely portrayed as another foot in mouth episode by a Governor with something of a reputation for gaffes. Having failed, despite all the warning signs, to see the surge in inflation coming, the Bank fully deserves whatever criticism is thrown at it. The Bank has failed to conduct itself well in recent times.

Even so, the Governor had little option but to say what he did. It makes no sense at all for a central bank, which is supposed to be tightening policy to fight inflation, to be simultaneously loosening it through resumed asset purchases.

To do so would be seen by "Mr Market" as monetary financing, or what is sometimes referred to as "fiscal dominance", where monetary policy is used to support the government's fiscal needs. By making the programme time-limited, the Bank was able just about to pass its intervention off as justified on financial stability grounds. It would have been game over had Bailey made the programme open ended. Already, acute loss of credibility in monetary policy would have spiralled out of control, and the rout in bond markets would have gotten even worse.

Once the Bank had made clear that it would be ending the programme as scheduled, the Government had no option but to reverse its fiscal plans. It would have been mayhem in the markets on Monday had it not done so.

"Economic orthodoxy" is back in the saddle. But then it never really went away. Instead we had a brief aberration in which the Government, having dispensed with all sensible advice, thought bizarrely that it could defy gravity. If it had been done differently it might have succeeded, but it was not. We'll be paying the consequences in reduced standing and prosperity for years, if not decades, to come.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ght-along/

[Torquemada 1420]

Good grief, has the Torygraph been taken over today?! Strange to see this comment headline in there of all places

Project Fear was right all along
Six years of policy confusion and ineptitude has brought a calamitous loss of standing

Call it revenge of the Remainer Establishment, if you like. The revolution in the British economy promised by Leave campaigners six years ago finally seemed to go the way of all revolutionary movements this week: it ended up eating itself.

Downbeat predictions by the Treasury and others on the economic consequences of leaving the EU, contemptuously dismissed at the time by Brexit campaigners as "Project Fear", have been on a long fuse, but they have turned out to be overwhelmingly correct, and if anything have underestimated both the calamitous loss of international standing and the scale of the damage that six years of policy confusion and ineptitude has imposed on the country. A serious house price correction, substantially higher interest rates and a permanently impaired exchange rate may be the least of it.

Credibility is all in politics, finance and economics; this week was the point at which the UK Government finally managed to lose all last remaining vestiges of it. Britain's trusted institutional framework, together with its hard won reputation for sound money and certainty in policy, all went down the pan. Perhaps I exaggerate, but not since the humiliation of the International Monetary Fund bailout in 1976 have we seen an unravelling quite as spectacular. This too from a Tory Government with a substantial overall majority. It is scarcely believable.

These are dark days for Tory MPs, who will be acutely aware that loss of reputation for economic competence is electoral poison for their party. As the former Chancellor, Philip Hammond, has already observed, that reputation has been comprehensively trashed by what's just occurred.

I feel sorry for Kwasi Kwarteng. He now bears the dubious distinction of being Britain's second shortest serving Chancellor ever after Ian Macleod, who died in office almost immediately after being appointed.

Others have been chasing the silver medal hard in the turmoil of the last several years; Sajid Javid lasted just six months, and Nadhim Zahawi only eight weeks. Anyone would think we had become Italy or Greece, such is the turnover in key government positions and the growing sense of political, economic and fiscal instability.

Nor is the storm by any means yet over. Stripped of all authority and credibility, it is hard to see how Liz Truss, the Prime Minister, can survive the traumas of the past several weeks. As Norman Lamont said of John Major, she's in office but not in power.

The U-turn on corporation tax, the scapegoating of Kwarteng, and his replacement with the supposedly steadying hand of Jeremy Hunt is unlikely to save her. The cut in spending plans that she implied on Friday may be what the markets demand, but politically it threatens finally to destroy her.

Kwarteng was a likeable Chancellor with many of the right intentions. He is not wrong about the need for radical action to correct multiple long term weaknesses and deficiencies in the UK economy. Many of the supply side measures announced in the mini-Budget were more than welcome, and might in time have made a significant difference to the UK's long term growth trajectory.

Yet the unfunded tax cuts were always going to be a bridge too far. Fiscal policy 101: you do not attempt to do a permanent fiscal giveaway against the backdrop of sharply rising inflation and interest rates, a punishing energy crisis, a current account deficit swollen to an unprecedented 8 percent of GDP, and a seemingly intractable black hole at the heart of the public finances. To have rejected independent assessment of the plans by the Office for Budget Responsibility only further added to the sense of alarm in financial markets.

When we talk about "financial markets", it is important to note that they are not some god-like arbiter of policy whose judgement on matters is beyond challenge, but essentially just a lot of excitable children who, with herd-like conformity, are merely chasing the money.

The idea that the £18bn a year of corporation tax revenues that seemed to be at the centre of this week's rout would make the difference between national solvency and insolvency is almost beyond ridiculous. It would not have done. Yet sadly it became totemic in a wider loss of political and economic credibility, which has been cumulative now over a number of years.

It is perhaps not so surprising that the passionate Remainer who became a passionate Brexiteer should choose to throw her Chancellor to the wolves in order to save her own skin. Yet the fact is that Truss was in lockstep with Kwarteng in challenging "economic orthodoxy" and the institutions that were its standard bearers. On the campaign trail she was, if anything, even more of a zealot for economic radicalism than Kwarteng. In any case, she plainly didn't understand the sometimes destructive way markets interact with policy. It's been a rude awakening.

In the end, it was Andrew Bailey, Governor of the Bank of England, who brought matters to a head, by insisting that there would be no extension to the bond buying programme he had initiated to counter forced selling by UK pension funds.

This has been widely portrayed as another foot in mouth episode by a Governor with something of a reputation for gaffes. Having failed, despite all the warning signs, to see the surge in inflation coming, the Bank fully deserves whatever criticism is thrown at it. The Bank has failed to conduct itself well in recent times.

Even so, the Governor had little option but to say what he did. It makes no sense at all for a central bank, which is supposed to be tightening policy to fight inflation, to be simultaneously loosening it through resumed asset purchases.

To do so would be seen by "Mr Market" as monetary financing, or what is sometimes referred to as "fiscal dominance", where monetary policy is used to support the government's fiscal needs. By making the programme time-limited, the Bank was able just about to pass its intervention off as justified on financial stability grounds. It would have been game over had Bailey made the programme open ended. Already, acute loss of credibility in monetary policy would have spiralled out of control, and the rout in bond markets would have gotten even worse.

Once the Bank had made clear that it would be ending the programme as scheduled, the Government had no option but to reverse its fiscal plans. It would have been mayhem in the markets on Monday had it not done so.

"Economic orthodoxy" is back in the saddle. But then it never really went away. Instead we had a brief aberration in which the Government, having dispensed with all sensible advice, thought bizarrely that it could defy gravity. If it had been done differently it might have succeeded, but it was not. We'll be paying the consequences in reduced standing and prosperity for years, if not decades, to come.

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/business/20 ... ght-along/

This ain't over yet. Every possibility that gilt coupons pass 5% early next week and if that happens, we'll see if the BofE holds Bailey's line and potentially some FS schemes go to the wall OR Bailey and the BofE lose almost as much credibility for back tracking as Truss.

[_Os_]

Jeremy Warner is the author of that article, he's the one sane voice left in the Telegraph, which is a Tory alternate reality hellhole otherwise. He'll go the same way as Oborne (who quit the Telegraph in 2015 claiming its journalism was controlled by commercial considerations) if he keeps this up, those who fund the Telegraph do not want reality intruding too much. Evans-Pritchard has also made negative noises about Brexit, but nothing like Warner.

[_Os_]

Pretty good piece about what this means in the wider Co text and where it came from.

Although many of us saw this coming way back before 2016

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... dApp_Other

Good article, but it's going to be another 5 to 10 years before it's properly over. These people are deep in an alternate reality, which makes Labour scared to act because they want those votes too. Polling is showing large majorities now think Brexit is bad, but that hasn't translated into much change in the polling for re-join/closer relationship with the EU. You'll know it's over when the tabloids are demanding a closer relationship to the EU, tabascoboy's post shows how they operate, they'll push their alternate reality Tory bullshit when there's an open door/people are undecided, but once the mood changes decisively they just go with it.

Another example of the alternate reality today. Banks thinks Truss is calmly in control and knows what she is doing, and Hunt is the insane madman (supported remain and didn't recant enough) that has no control and is being used as a human shield by Truss. The reality is roughly the opposite, Hunt has much more power than someone installed in different circumstances would have, Truss depends on him for credibility and if he can't deliver it she has nothing. This cartoonist is popular in the anti-vax alternate reality, and pro-Putin alternate reality, and sometimes dips into the Tory alternate reality.

[C69]

Let's not forget, Hunt by his own admission was put of his depth at Health and acknowledged he made loads of mistakes
Mistakes he was told of time and time again during his tenure but he denied he was on the wrong trak.
I suspect he may suggest merging Health and Social care like he has championed, well he will of he has any balls.
He is now the defacto PM.

If it was up to he would cut Corporation tax to 15% not have it at 25%. He is an arrogant toss pot parachute d on to try an unite. He is an intellectual pygmy dripping with arrogance.

[sefton]

So next a U-Turn on the 1p income tax reduction. The shameless bitch will still try to hold on.

[Ovals]

So next a U-Turn on the 1p income tax reduction. The shameless bitch will still try to hold on.

The Tories are so divided they can't agree on a suitable replacement - another party election would tear them apart and they'd still end up with someone they don't want. She'll survive for now, no matter what happens - but she's little more than a hostage from now on.

[_Os_]

Looks like Biden knew about the UK budget in advance and his tweet about trickle down economics was aimed squarely at Truss! Can't see how the UK gets any real growth now having pissed off the EU and the US!

PS However I expect Scotlands golf courses to be full of rich Americans next year splashing the cash as the £1 = $1. Might have to find a wee part time job doing some caddying? Tips should be bigger?

It takes a fairly embarrassing level of cultural cringe to seriously believe Biden is subtweeting about British domestic politics

Let's not pretend what's happening here isn't big news in the USA.

There's been some credible off the record reports from US journos, that Biden and his team regard Truss as a moron and are quite happy to openly say it. The elderly Irishman isn't sub tweeting anymore (if he was), he's just saying it matter of fact whilst ordering ice cream and being filmed.

[SaintK]

[PCPhil]

Any sign of her since she ran off the stage and started crying?

Best thing to do is get straight back on the horse. Another press conf on Monday would be fun.

[fishfoodie]

Maybe the men in grey suits would be better off visiting the editor of Vogue, & convincing them to put Dizzy on the cover; "In the National Interest", as that would probably mark a successful Leadership as far as she's concerned ?

[dpedin]

Tories are blocked in with no obvious route out, only ones that are quick and nasty or ones that prolong the agony and then turn nasty! I don't think Truss will front up at PMQs on Wednesday, I suspect she is having a minor panic attack/breakdown and will either find a way out of PMQs or will resign before then. She is too unstable and incapable of doing PMQs now and the Tories know it. Markets on Monday might push Tories into action but I suspect the men on grey suits will want to do something asap before the damage is made even worse.

I think we are in unprecedented times here with a PM who is visibly unable to lead and who is now psychologically unwell. They might try and force her to step down on medical grounds and get some interim arrangement in place but even that is going to be difficult/impossible given the infighting and division within the party. Worse scenario for them, and for my pension pot, is that they become paralysed with no agreement on how to go forward and just let things drift and deteriorate!

[Biffer]

Tories are blocked in with no obvious route out, only ones that are quick and nasty or ones that prolong the agony and then turn nasty! I don't think Truss will front up at PMQs on Wednesday, I suspect she is having a minor panic attack/breakdown and will either find a way out of PMQs or will resign before then. She is too unstable and incapable of doing PMQs now and the Tories know it. Markets on Monday might push Tories into action but I suspect the men on grey suits will want to do something asap before the damage is made even worse.

I think we are in unprecedented times here with a PM who is visibly unable to lead and who is now psychologically unwell. They might try and force her to step down on medical grounds and get some interim arrangement in place but even that is going to be difficult/impossible given the infighting and division within the party. Worse scenario for them, and for my pension pot, is that they become paralysed with no agreement on how to go forward and just let things drift and deteriorate!

I would remind you that her deputy is Therese Coffey.

[_Os_]

Tories are blocked in with no obvious route out, only ones that are quick and nasty or ones that prolong the agony and then turn nasty! I don't think Truss will front up at PMQs on Wednesday, I suspect she is having a minor panic attack/breakdown and will either find a way out of PMQs or will resign before then. She is too unstable and incapable of doing PMQs now and the Tories know it. Markets on Monday might push Tories into action but I suspect the men on grey suits will want to do something asap before the damage is made even worse.

I think we are in unprecedented times here with a PM who is visibly unable to lead and who is now psychologically unwell. They might try and force her to step down on medical grounds and get some interim arrangement in place but even that is going to be difficult/impossible given the infighting and division within the party. Worse scenario for them, and for my pension pot, is that they become paralysed with no agreement on how to go forward and just let things drift and deteriorate!

She needed to act far sooner than she did, this constant talk of "it's a global issue, Covid, Putin, blah blah" and "we're sticking to the plan", is the exact opposite of what sane observers wanted (ie "the markets"). By trying to ride it out for three weeks (this is another way of saying "ignoring reality"), she's fucked herself and likely the UK too.

She'll be gone soon but that still doesn't fix the Tory's problem. The Brexit project now defines their party (during the Tory internal leadership election you could make good calls on who would go all the way to face Sunak based on who the ERG/far right were supporting, as I did on this thread, then you could see that candidate would stand a good chance of defeating Sunak among a membership with a lot of UKIP/Brexit Party types) has just catastrophically imploded. The core problem is whoever replaces Truss, leads a party largely comprised of people that still thinks the EU stopped their ideas being implemented (the sovereignty argument). They do not understand what is curtailing their magical sovereignty isn't the EU, it's reality and only <5% of the UK supporting those ideas. The ideas they wanted "full sovereignty" to implement are either impossible or shit. They still think those ideas are fucking brilliant, and just need better comms then the NI protocol can be ripped up and mad libertarian fiscal policies will work and be popular. In the general UK population there's considerably less people that think this way, but they appear on vox pops saying "just give Truss some time" or some variation of that.

The latest an election can be held is January 2025. Until that election this will continue to play out in the same way it has already, these people are living in an alternate reality they're not ready to leave. The best option for them is to stumble along trying to mitigate the damage, as May attempted and Johnson ended up doing (which is why he was knifed by ERG types, not because he was immoral/shameless/corrupt), but for those in the alternate reality that means admitting Brexit was pointless. If someone like Sunak became PM and started trying to mitigate the damage, there would immediately be 40+ Tory MPs trying to destroy him.

[Jockaline]

The latest an election can be held is January 2025. Until that election this will continue to play out in the same way it has already, these people are living in an alternate reality they're not ready to leave. The best option for them is to stumble along trying to mitigate the damage, as May attempted and Johnson ended up doing (which is why he was knifed by ERG types, not because he was immoral/shameless/corrupt), but for those in the alternate reality that means admitting Brexit was pointless. If someone like Sunak became PM and started trying to mitigate the damage, there would immediately be 40+ Tory MPs trying to destroy him.

I thought Sunak was very pro Brexit. Problem with him was he knifed Boris and members would never vote for him. He was also unpopular with the Tory electorate, but given the polls now hardly a consideration. Their best course of action would be to insist Truss appoints him as deputy PM, then force her to resign, or just have here as PM in name only. Takes out the membership who only narrowly voted for her anyway, and makes it look somewhat democratic. Parachuting in someone else in would be a fiasco, and Sunak has the experience that may actually calm the markets. When they lose the next election they can sort themselves out then.

[weegie01]

and the laughable suggestion that the rUK government will pay pensions.

Just on this one item, I was under the impression (from reading the government website a few years ago) that the UK paid pensions for those people who had worked here but had emigrated on their retirement.

Why would an Indy Scotland be different from that scenario?

edit, in fact

Claim State Pension abroad
You can claim State Pension abroad if you’ve paid enough UK National Insurance contributions to qualify.

https://www.gov.uk/state-pension-if-you ... 0may%20get.

It is not the same. As a supporter of independence I'd love it if the rUK kept responsibility for pensions, but it would not.

The critical difference to UK citizens going abroad, is that an independent Scotland would be replacing the functions of the current UK Govt. As part of this it would take over responsibilities for pensions.

If the pensions were funded, then rUk would retain the responsibility by either continuing to pay them, of by making a lump sum transfer. But they are not funded, they are paid out of current revenue as a current expense, so the the responsibility passes to the Scottish Govt.

At its simplest, UK (including Scotland) current taxes currently pay all UK pensions as they fall, including Scotland's. After independence, rUK (not including Scotland) current taxes pay all rUK pensions as they fall due, Scotland's current taxes pay Scotland's pensions as they fall due.

[_Os_]

The latest an election can be held is January 2025. Until that election this will continue to play out in the same way it has already, these people are living in an alternate reality they're not ready to leave. The best option for them is to stumble along trying to mitigate the damage, as May attempted and Johnson ended up doing (which is why he was knifed by ERG types, not because he was immoral/shameless/corrupt), but for those in the alternate reality that means admitting Brexit was pointless. If someone like Sunak became PM and started trying to mitigate the damage, there would immediately be 40+ Tory MPs trying to destroy him.

I thought Sunak was very pro Brexit. Problem with him was he knifed Boris and members would never vote for him. He was also unpopular with the Tory electorate, but given the polls now hardly a consideration. Their best course of action would be to insist Truss appoints him as deputy PM, then force her to resign, or just have here as PM in name only. Takes out the membership who only narrowly voted for her anyway, and makes it look somewhat democratic. Parachuting in someone else in would be a fiasco, and Sunak has the experience that may actually calm the markets. When they lose the next election they can sort themselves out then.

Sunak supported Brexit, but people that campaigned for Leave don't even remember him. Facts don't matter in Tory alternate reality, that's why the Tory membership backed Truss for being more pro-Brexit even though she supported Remain. Truss has always been on the libertarian right/far right wing of the Tory party, and that's why they trusted her more and selected her. Brexit in the Tory alternate reality isn't about just supporting it, it's about doing things the EU was preventing (which it turns out wasn't much) to prove it was worth it, that's why they're obsessed with doing crazy shit. Sunak even literally told them "no more fairy tales", and was considered a "globalist elite" for it, which is what Farage called him. They all supported Truss as their candidate to "keep Brexit safe", all applauded the mini budget, then all said she had betrayed them.

The membership voting to select a leader is fine, but it's not that democratic when a small group of people that are unaccountable are selecting a PM who will explicitly implement a new manifesto the electorate didn't vote for. They've failed to understand the difference between selecting a leader and selecting a PM, the UK state isn't the Tory party. If Tory MPs had selected a new PM, the choice would've perhaps been better (they know who the morons are) and it certainly would've been more democratic as MPs are directly accountable to the electorate. If you want to complain about Truss the logical place to direct that anger is at individual Tory members who selected her, but who are they?

It would be totally fine if Truss was defenestrated and then Tory MPs selected a replacement among themselves, then the replacement purged the parliamentary Tory party of trouble makers by withdrawing the whip from them/forcing them to sit on the opposition benches/try to strip them of membership. The Tories have about an 80 seat majority, so could just purge 30 ERG MPs outright without caring what they do afterwards. They'll have to do this anyway and purge their membership too, if they can't they risk dying out.

[Jockaline]

The latest an election can be held is January 2025. Until that election this will continue to play out in the same way it has already, these people are living in an alternate reality they're not ready to leave. The best option for them is to stumble along trying to mitigate the damage, as May attempted and Johnson ended up doing (which is why he was knifed by ERG types, not because he was immoral/shameless/corrupt), but for those in the alternate reality that means admitting Brexit was pointless. If someone like Sunak became PM and started trying to mitigate the damage, there would immediately be 40+ Tory MPs trying to destroy him.

I thought Sunak was very pro Brexit. Problem with him was he knifed Boris and members would never vote for him. He was also unpopular with the Tory electorate, but given the polls now hardly a consideration. Their best course of action would be to insist Truss appoints him as deputy PM, then force her to resign, or just have here as PM in name only. Takes out the membership who only narrowly voted for her anyway, and makes it look somewhat democratic. Parachuting in someone else in would be a fiasco, and Sunak has the experience that may actually calm the markets. When they lose the next election they can sort themselves out then.

Sunak supported Brexit, but people that campaigned for Leave don't even remember him. Facts don't matter in Tory alternate reality, that's why the Tory membership backed Truss for being more pro-Brexit even though she supported Remain. Truss has always been on the libertarian right/far right wing of the Tory party, and that's why they trusted her more and selected her. Brexit in the Tory alternate reality isn't about just supporting it, it's about doing things the EU was preventing (which it turns out wasn't much) to prove it was worth it, that's why they're obsessed with doing crazy shit. Sunak even literally told them "no more fairy tales", and was considered a "globalist elite" for it, which is what Farage called him. They all supported Truss as their candidate to "keep Brexit safe", all applauded the mini budget, then all said she had betrayed them.

The membership voting to select a leader is fine, but it's not that democratic when a small group of people that are unaccountable are selecting a PM who will explicitly implement a new manifesto the electorate didn't vote for. They've failed to understand the difference between selecting a leader and selecting a PM, the UK state isn't the Tory party. If Tory MPs had selected a new PM, the choice would've perhaps been better (they know who the morons are) and it certainly would've been more democratic as MPs are directly accountable to the electorate. If you want to complain about Truss the logical place to direct that anger is at individual Tory members who selected her, but who are they?

It would be totally fine if Truss was defenestrated and then Tory MPs selected a replacement among themselves, then the replacement purged the parliamentary Tory party of trouble makers by withdrawing the whip from them/forcing them to sit on the opposition benches/try to strip them of membership. The Tories have about an 80 seat majority, so could just purge 30 ERG MPs outright without caring what they do afterwards. They'll have to do this anyway and purge their membership too, if they can't they risk dying out.

Maybe restoring the party whip to those purged over Brexit would help them too. I very much want a Labour government, but the country needs a credible opposition too to keep them honest. I feel a bit guilty about wanting Truss to win the leadership battle as it was clear she would be a disaster for them, but the country is suffering so much as a result.

[Calculon]

How times have changed

[dpedin]

How times have changed

48 hours is now the average wait for an ambulance!

[Calculon]

Earlier this year when I was in London I was told, iirc, I would have to wait 4 weeks for a GP appointment. Maybe because of the pandemic, but still...