So you genuinely believe that in November 2021 when Wasps were negotiating with Koch that when they offered him a contract they knew they weren't going to be able to stick to it? What's your evidence for this?Kawazaki wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:52 amJM2K6 wrote: ↑Thu Oct 20, 2022 10:27 amI don't know if Wasps knew they were going to go bust. You said "Saracens could afford to keep Koch within the lower cap. That's the point." - but there's no proof that they could. We simply don't know what Koch was asking for. It might well have been the case that Sarries told him that they could only offer him x and that he was never going to accept anything near that amount.
You have to understand that I am not criticising Saracens over Koch, or defending Wasps for their club going bust. But it's entirely possible that when Wasps went in for Koch almost a year ago that they had no idea of the reckoning that awaited them. It's extremely unlikely they signed him under false pretences. And Koch is a hell of a player; given he was available I very much doubt other sides wouldn't have been willing to offer similar money, and I very much doubt Saracens would've behaved any differently. Koch would still have left the club and signed for someone else under the cap.
Wasps lost some big wage players at the end of the season. Nothing they did with their recruitment was out of the ordinary. By focusing on the player who left Saracens you're just coming across as being a bit bitter about Saracens losing him, rather than any genuine concern for the plight of all the Wasps players. Including their other signings like John Ryan, Odendaal, Haydon-Wood, etc.
If I supported a club that John Ryan, Odendaal and Haydon-Wood came from then I'd likely refer to them. It's quite normal for people to reference and frame events that impact or relate to things that they have some investment in, be it real or emotional.
The figure I heard was that Saracens couldn't get anywhere near the Wasps offer which was circa £100k a year more. It's naive in the extreme given what we know that Wasps weren't aware of the parlous condition of their finances when they made that offer to Koch. Of course you might be arguing in bad faith because it's Saracens and you're a bitter Quins fan. I hope not but I suspect that's nearer the truth.
Again, you keep banging on about this £100k more. Firstly, unless it was reported by a primary source, you have to admit that that figure could be entirely made up. Secondly, it's reasonable to assume that Wasps were offering more than Saracens were willing to pay, but in isolation that doesn't mean anything. Given that it was widely reported that even the Vunipolas were offered significantly reduced deals, it looks a little bit like this:
- Koch is very well paid at Saracens, commensurate with his status as a high quality international prop
- His contract is coming to an end and negotiations begin with Saracens
- Saracens, having been through the relegation season and dealing with the impact of Covid, the need to trim their squad for salary cap reasons, and wanting to keep hold of their core players in a squad absolutely stuffed with internationals, offer him a much reduced deal
- Koch isn't happy with this and is receiving offers from other clubs
- Wasps offer more than Saracens were willing to offer, Koch likes what they're pitching and signs
- Saracens sign a couple of younger tightheads, one an international, and carry on just fine
This whole "100k more!" repetition seems like an attempt to make out that the deal was somehow nefarious, rather than Koch being a victim of a team that wasn't willing to keep paying him the same amount as before. It doesn't actually matter what Wasps offered him as it they had space in the cap, and were losing a bunch of high earners. Saracens chose not to keep Koch. Teams do this every year. It's really not the story here.
If the accusation is that they knew they wouldn't be able to pay his wages then Koch's signing is pretty meaningless, because it means every single player and every single employee got deliberately fucked and the scandal is even worse than reported. But without evidence of this, then there's nothing to complain about Wasps signing Koch. It's not like Koch's wages are what broke the club. It's not like they broke the salary cap to sign him. It's not like they had financial power that Saracens couldn't match. It's just another regular transfer, and not worth banging on about or trying to make into some sort of conspiracy or evidence of wrongdoing.
