The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Big D]

I think the positives are the back row and Smith were very good. Schoeman was good too but too many penalties given away.

I like Nel a lot but when he came on he did look far too old. I appreciate we don't have anyone else scrum capable but I don't think Nel can handle the loose.

Agree with that. Think we lost quite a bit when Skinner went off as well.

I hope Bennett gets another chance with someone else at 12

Nae chance. Harris will be straight in.

I thought they did a lot of things well but, as per normal, penalty count was ridiculous. I like the ambition to the ambition of going to the corner but sometimes they should take the 3, of course that's dependent on other factors. Did Cotter mention that Kinghorn refused a kick in the 1st half? Graham and VDM didn't have anywhere near enough ball, Smith did well though.

I don't understand how we can have two of the most potent weapons in the game and not gameplan a way to get them the ball that doesn't include mostly fielding and contesting kicks.

[Slick]

Agree with that. Think we lost quite a bit when Skinner went off as well.

I hope Bennett gets another chance with someone else at 12

Nae chance. Harris will be straight in.

I thought they did a lot of things well but, as per normal, penalty count was ridiculous. I like the ambition to the ambition of going to the corner but sometimes they should take the 3, of course that's dependent on other factors. Did Cotter mention that Kinghorn refused a kick in the 1st half? Graham and VDM didn't have anywhere near enough ball, Smith did well though.

I don't understand how we can have two of the most potent weapons in the game and not gameplan a way to get them the ball that doesn't include mostly fielding and contesting kicks.

By picking the worst 9,10,12 combination for that game plan?

In mitigation, the two Aussie centres are very good defenders

[I like neeps]

That’s the problem, isn’t it. But just blaming the 10 for not being a good kicker is lumping the blame for all of the back lines failures in that area on to one person.

I'm not blaming Kinghorn? It's Townsend's fault in picking an incompetent goal kicker. It doesn't have to the 10, but Townsend didn't pick one anywhere.

Although, I'm not convinced Bennett isn't a better kicker than Kinghorn (still not international class) and George Horne definitely is. So there were options on the pitch at the time.

Makes the rumors about Cooney more interesting. Townsend would love to be able to pair Kinghorn with an SH, who kicks >80% for his Province ?

Would hate it we made the team weaker by picking Cooney to keep Kinghorn there who isn't himself a strength of the team.

[Big D]

Nae chance. Harris will be straight in.

I thought they did a lot of things well but, as per normal, penalty count was ridiculous. I like the ambition to the ambition of going to the corner but sometimes they should take the 3, of course that's dependent on other factors. Did Cotter mention that Kinghorn refused a kick in the 1st half? Graham and VDM didn't have anywhere near enough ball, Smith did well though.

I don't understand how we can have two of the most potent weapons in the game and not gameplan a way to get them the ball that doesn't include mostly fielding and contesting kicks.

By picking the worst 9,10,12 combination for that game plan?

In mitigation, the two Aussie centres are very good defenders

I don't think that's fair on Kinghorn, Edinburgh don't seem to ignore the wingers like Scotland do. As well as Smith played and took his try well, he should really have given a walk in to Duhan or Darcy too. Thankfully he scored.

The coaching have problems at the moment. Dalziel has line out problems to fix, god knows what ABZ does and overall the discipline was v poor.

[I like neeps]

I don't understand how we can have two of the most potent weapons in the game and not gameplan a way to get them the ball that doesn't include mostly fielding and contesting kicks.

By picking the worst 9,10,12 combination for that game plan?

In mitigation, the two Aussie centres are very good defenders

I don't think that's fair on Kinghorn, Edinburgh don't seem to ignore the wingers like Scotland do. As well as Smith played and took his try well, he should really have given a walk in to Duhan or Darcy too. Thankfully he scored.

The coaching have problems at the moment. Dalziel has line out problems to fix, god knows what ABZ does and overall the discipline was v poor.

Kinghorn does distribute well for Edinburgh to the wide channels but I'm not sure how Bennett doesn't get the finger pointed at him as he doesn't pass either.

Edinburgh's attack and how Blair structures it is to get wingers the ball early and often. Scotland's structure is not the same but Duhan and Darcy did come looking for work yesterday it just didn't work at all.

Mike Blair really is a terrific attack coach if you watch the 9 always has two options, Kinghorn at 10 has the option to run, short line, pulling it back or flat misspass, Dean/Lang have got very good at holding defenders and then a late pass inside or outside and they all run good support lines. One of my issues with Kinghorn for Scotland is the attack is a lot different and he doesn't have those options.

Not that I don't think Kinghorn played well yesterday, I think as a playmaker he did quite well. Ritchie botched one not holding a wider line and Tuipolotu really butchered one. It does annoy me that Tuipolotu plays so often at 12 when you have someone like Hutchinson absolutely tearing the premiership to shreds weekly. Not that he couldn't play yesterday obviously but he's not in the squad. I'm not convinced Tuipolotu has done anything for Scotland Chris Dean couldn't do either.

[dpedin]

Scotland should have won at a canter. However we looked like a team in need of a game whereas Aussies have played quite a few games together in recent weeks. I am surprised Horne didnt step up for the final kick at goal, he is a superb kicker off the tee and would have slotted that one home. There his a lot to work on but we did enough to win that game playing poorly.

[I like neeps]

Scotland should have won at a canter. However we looked like a team in need of a game whereas Aussies have played quite a few games together in recent weeks. I am surprised Horne didnt step up for the final kick at goal, he is a superb kicker off the tee and would have slotted that one home. There his a lot to work on but we did enough to win that game playing poorly.

I remember last autumn when we played crap but beat Australia the narrative was it's good to play badly and win. And then the rest of the autumn, entire six nations (apart from England match and Lamaro's time out the game for Italy) and now the summer tour we didn't play consistently well either. There comes a point where playing badly is just the usual performance for Scotland. This Scotland team is an ill disciplined team who make a lot of mental mistakes as that's what they've been for the last year. In short, this is a bad team and the performance Vs Australia was really more of the same not a noticeable abberation.

So I don't buy it's a positive that we played badly and almost won because playing badly is what this team does more often than not.

[Torquemada 1420]

Scotland should have won at a canter. However we looked like a team in need of a game whereas Aussies have played quite a few games together in recent weeks. I am surprised Horne didnt step up for the final kick at goal, he is a superb kicker off the tee and would have slotted that one home. There his a lot to work on but we did enough to win that game playing poorly.

I pondered over this a lot in making an FR pick
- Yes, Aus have played as a team a lot more recently but
- In terms of match fitness, their players have done nothing for weeks (Soup long over) whereas all the URC players are into their stride but not so far into the season so as to be fatigued or injured

I reckoned this evened itself out and with home adv and NH weather (okay it ended up being mild) I had Sco to edge it. Like you said, they should have won by more than a clear score but the deadly treble of squandering chances, poor decision making and offering the oppos cheap pens sunk you. And, the thing is, Scotland NEVER seems to learn: especially the penalty handouts.

[Slick]

By picking the worst 9,10,12 combination for that game plan?

In mitigation, the two Aussie centres are very good defenders

I don't think that's fair on Kinghorn, Edinburgh don't seem to ignore the wingers like Scotland do. As well as Smith played and took his try well, he should really have given a walk in to Duhan or Darcy too. Thankfully he scored.

The coaching have problems at the moment. Dalziel has line out problems to fix, god knows what ABZ does and overall the discipline was v poor.

Kinghorn does distribute well for Edinburgh to the wide channels but I'm not sure how Bennett doesn't get the finger pointed at him as he doesn't pass either.

Edinburgh's attack and how Blair structures it is to get wingers the ball early and often. Scotland's structure is not the same but Duhan and Darcy did come looking for work yesterday it just didn't work at all.

Mike Blair really is a terrific attack coach if you watch the 9 always has two options, Kinghorn at 10 has the option to run, short line, pulling it back or flat misspass, Dean/Lang have got very good at holding defenders and then a late pass inside or outside and they all run good support lines. One of my issues with Kinghorn for Scotland is the attack is a lot different and he doesn't have those options.

Not that I don't think Kinghorn played well yesterday, I think as a playmaker he did quite well. Ritchie botched one not holding a wider line and Tuipolotu really butchered one. It does annoy me that Tuipolotu plays so often at 12 when you have someone like Hutchinson absolutely tearing the premiership to shreds weekly. Not that he couldn't play yesterday obviously but he's not in the squad. I'm not convinced Tuipolotu has done anything for Scotland Chris Dean couldn't do either.

It’s not really and I’m being slightly facetious. But I think there is a bit of truth in it.

Price is just generally a bit slow and poor at the moment. I’m sure he’ll come back but I don’t think he deserves a place currently, some of his kicking yesterday was awful and a number of times we had some momentum and he inexplicably slowed things down at a ruck.

In terms of getting the wide players into the game, I think Kinghorn was often a problem yesterday. He was crabbing a lot and taking space for the outside guys so by the time it got to Bennett he didn’t have many choices. These long passes he does look nice and occasionally come off but the majority of times it is just so easy to defend against that the wingers have no chance

Tuipolotu just isn’t good enough. He’s had a few good moments but he’s just not the type of player Kinghorn needs outside him

[Yr Alban]

Scotland should have won at a canter. However we looked like a team in need of a game whereas Aussies have played quite a few games together in recent weeks. I am surprised Horne didnt step up for the final kick at goal, he is a superb kicker off the tee and would have slotted that one home. There his a lot to work on but we did enough to win that game playing poorly.

I remember last autumn when we played crap but beat Australia the narrative was it's good to play badly and win. And then the rest of the autumn, entire six nations (apart from England match and Lamaro's time out the game for Italy) and now the summer tour we didn't play consistently well either. There comes a point where playing badly is just the usual performance for Scotland. This Scotland team is an ill disciplined team who make a lot of mental mistakes as that's what they've been for the last year. In short, this is a bad team and the performance Vs Australia was really more of the same not a noticeable abberation.

So I don't buy it's a positive that we played badly and almost won because playing badly is what this team does more often than not.

Although I think this is a bit on the harsh side, I have to admit that my optimism regarding Scotland, which was resurgent a year or two back, has disappeared like snow off a dyke. Our players are largely the same, indeed we have more options now, but we look badly coached and like we don't know how to use the players we have. And much as I hate agreeing with Torq, the boneheaded refusal to learn and stop giving away soft pens is infuriating.

I think Toony has been in charge too long. He seems out of ideas, his feud with Russell is a constant and awful distraction, and we simply aren't improving. Ideally I'd like a new coach to take over with a year until the RWC. But clearly that isn't going to happen - the SRU can't see what all of the rest of us can, which is that we are going to be manshamed by both SA and Ireland and out in the group stage. I literally cannot envisage any other outcome. But we're going to have to watch it happen before they change anything.

[I like neeps]

Chris Dean with two Sonny Bill esk offload assists. Not too bad!

[Slick]

Scotland should have won at a canter. However we looked like a team in need of a game whereas Aussies have played quite a few games together in recent weeks. I am surprised Horne didnt step up for the final kick at goal, he is a superb kicker off the tee and would have slotted that one home. There his a lot to work on but we did enough to win that game playing poorly.

I remember last autumn when we played crap but beat Australia the narrative was it's good to play badly and win. And then the rest of the autumn, entire six nations (apart from England match and Lamaro's time out the game for Italy) and now the summer tour we didn't play consistently well either. There comes a point where playing badly is just the usual performance for Scotland. This Scotland team is an ill disciplined team who make a lot of mental mistakes as that's what they've been for the last year. In short, this is a bad team and the performance Vs Australia was really more of the same not a noticeable abberation.

So I don't buy it's a positive that we played badly and almost won because playing badly is what this team does more often than not.

Although I think this is a bit on the harsh side, I have to admit that my optimism regarding Scotland, which was resurgent a year or two back, has disappeared like snow off a dyke. Our players are largely the same, indeed we have more options now, but we look badly coached and like we don't know how to use the players we have. And much as I hate agreeing with Torq, the boneheaded refusal to learn and stop giving away soft pens is infuriating.

I think Toony has been in charge too long. He seems out of ideas, his feud with Russell is a constant and awful distraction, and we simply aren't improving. Ideally I'd like a new coach to take over with a year until the RWC. But clearly that isn't going to happen - the SRU can't see what all of the rest of us can, which is that we are going to be manshamed by both SA and Ireland and out in the group stage. I literally cannot envisage any other outcome. But we're going to have to watch it happen before they change anything.

Hmm, yes. I’m a staunch supporter of Toony but I can’t see any way out of this and I’ve had enough. I didn’t bother getting my tickets for the Autumn Series as the last 6N knocked the stuffing out of me, and here we go again.

The players take a lot of blame as it’s them giving away the fucking stupid penalties etc, but there has been long enough to correct stuff like that and we haven’t.

In saying that, Edinburgh and Glasgow are much the same in terms of idiotic penalties, stupid decisions when the pressure is on and not being able to close out big games so I don’t know what the fix is.

Much as i love that we have a home grown coach it seems to me we need a big name Kiwi that takes no shit and puts the fear of god into the players

[Big D]

Chris Dean with two Sonny Bill esk offload assists. Not too bad!

No one can convince me that Tuipoltu is better than both him and Hutchinson.

[Yr Alban]

I remember last autumn when we played crap but beat Australia the narrative was it's good to play badly and win. And then the rest of the autumn, entire six nations (apart from England match and Lamaro's time out the game for Italy) and now the summer tour we didn't play consistently well either. There comes a point where playing badly is just the usual performance for Scotland. This Scotland team is an ill disciplined team who make a lot of mental mistakes as that's what they've been for the last year. In short, this is a bad team and the performance Vs Australia was really more of the same not a noticeable abberation.

So I don't buy it's a positive that we played badly and almost won because playing badly is what this team does more often than not.

Although I think this is a bit on the harsh side, I have to admit that my optimism regarding Scotland, which was resurgent a year or two back, has disappeared like snow off a dyke. Our players are largely the same, indeed we have more options now, but we look badly coached and like we don't know how to use the players we have. And much as I hate agreeing with Torq, the boneheaded refusal to learn and stop giving away soft pens is infuriating.

I think Toony has been in charge too long. He seems out of ideas, his feud with Russell is a constant and awful distraction, and we simply aren't improving. Ideally I'd like a new coach to take over with a year until the RWC. But clearly that isn't going to happen - the SRU can't see what all of the rest of us can, which is that we are going to be manshamed by both SA and Ireland and out in the group stage. I literally cannot envisage any other outcome. But we're going to have to watch it happen before they change anything.

Hmm, yes. I’m a staunch supporter of Toony but I can’t see any way out of this and I’ve had enough. I didn’t bother getting my tickets for the Autumn Series as the last 6N knocked the stuffing out of me, and here we go again.

The players take a lot of blame as it’s them giving away the fucking stupid penalties etc, but there has been long enough to correct stuff like that and we haven’t.

In saying that, Edinburgh and Glasgow are much the same in terms of idiotic penalties, stupid decisions when the pressure is on and not being able to close out big games so I don’t know what the fix is.

Much as i love that we have a home grown coach it seems to me we need a big name Kiwi that takes no shit and puts the fear of god into the players

I remember saying almost exactly your last sentence back before we employed Cotter. I favoured a no-nonsense South African, but basically someone who wouldn't tolerate brainless mistakes and who the players would be scared to cross. Either Scotland simply produce stupider players than other countries do (which seems unlikely) or our coaching needs to improve. The fact that several of our senior players have been prepared to openly defy Toony suggests that they aren't scared of him in the slightest.

[Big D]

Bad one for Boyle there. Head caught on wrong side of a tackle and was worked on for a while.

Thankfully managed to walk off with a bit of support. Hopefully no long terms issues and can get back after a few weeks out.

[Big D]

Dick of the day to the prop who tried to chip Boff.

[Big D]

Young Harrison playing well today.

Big intervention from Goosen. Great hit and turnover.

[I like neeps]

Dick of the day to the prop who tried to chip Boff.

That was great, really funny. I like watching Jarod Evans play rugby as he's a lovely attacker and absolutely mince defender so you're guaranteed line breaks.

[Biffer]

That was a refreshing fillup after yesterdays disappointment.

[weegie01]

That was a refreshing fillup after yesterdays disappointment.

It was quite a fillip as well.

[Biffer]

That was a refreshing fillup after yesterdays disappointment.

It was quite a fillip as well.

Yep!

[Jock42]

I always remember Kinghorn's kicking as being decent up until the last year ish. Am I misremembering or has focusing on 10 been to the detriment of his kicking practice?

[Jock42]

Chris Dean with two Sonny Bill esk offload assists. Not too bad!

No one can convince me that Tuipoltu is better than both him and Hutchinson.

He was great yesterday. I fear he's going to be another Roddy Grant, brilliant player that never got a cap.

[Jock42]

Young Harrison playing well today.

Big intervention from Goosen. Great hit and turnover.

I suppose its a balancing act for a front rower, getting him enough game time without flogging a young lad but he's another player playing really well.

Really selection dramas in the back 3.

[Tichtheid]

I didn't get to see the Sco-Oz game until yesterday and the Embra game until late last night.

Edinburgh were good, Chris Dean was very good, though at 28 years old you'd have to think he's missed the boat for Scotland. He'll be coming on 30 by the 2024 6N and he probably won't make the squad before the world cup, you never, I suppose, but he's playing the best rugby I've seen from him, he was very good after injury last season and he's back to that kind of form now.
Goosen has been a terrific signing in the little we've seen from him. I actually think Immelmann has been excellent for us too, so in vd Merwe. Immelman, Boff, Graham, Hoyland and Goosen we've got the best back three pool we've ever had. The young academy lads have got a very high bar to aim for.
Currie is growing into a good 13, Savala too is improving with game time - who'd a thunk it?

I'm still not taken with Debruin, McCallum should come back to us. Williams has looked good this season. Sykes must be horrible to play against, Crosbie and Muncaster - can they make the step up to the next level? I like them both and I think the back row is as strong a pool as the back three, I hope the laddie Boyle is ok, he took a very heavy knock.

The only thing I'm going to say about the international game, because I've read all sorts, is that it's not too long since I was reading the question, "How the hell can Russell take the kicks for Scotland if he's not trusted to take them for his club?"

[Yr Alban]

Chris Dean with two Sonny Bill esk offload assists. Not too bad!

No one can convince me that Tuipoltu is better than both him and Hutchinson.

He was great yesterday. I fear he's going to be another Roddy Grant, brilliant player that never got a cap.

Tuipulotu is the new Gilchrist for me - a player whose appeal to the national coach continually eludes me. I freely admit that I don’t regularly watch Glasgow (I’ve been meaning to look into watching more club games since I cancelled Sky Sports, but I haven’t got round to it) but he has yet to do anything in a Scotland shirt that remotely justifies his selection. Hopefully Redpath’s return to fitness means that he won’t start at least.

[Jock42]

No one can convince me that Tuipoltu is better than both him and Hutchinson.

He was great yesterday. I fear he's going to be another Roddy Grant, brilliant player that never got a cap.

Tuipulotu is the new Gilchrist for me - a player whose appeal to the national coach continually eludes me. I freely admit that I don’t regularly watch Glasgow (I’ve been meaning to look into watching more club games since I cancelled Sky Sports, but I haven’t got round to it) but he has yet to do anything in a Scotland shirt that remotely justifies his selection. Hopefully Redpath’s return to fitness means that he won’t start at least.

In fairness to him he's been really good this season, at 13, for Glasgow.

[Slick]

I always remember Kinghorn's kicking as being decent up until the last year ish. Am I misremembering or has focusing on 10 been to the detriment of his kicking practice?

I said further up that I was sure I had seen his kicking stats were pretty decent, but haven't looked. I think it's a bit of red herring anyway to be honest

[I like neeps]

I didn't get to see the Sco-Oz game until yesterday and the Embra game until late last night.

Edinburgh were good, Chris Dean was very good, though at 28 years old you'd have to think he's missed the boat for Scotland. He'll be coming on 30 by the 2024 6N and he probably won't make the squad before the world cup, you never, I suppose, but he's playing the best rugby I've seen from him, he was very good after injury last season and he's back to that kind of form now.
Goosen has been a terrific signing in the little we've seen from him. I actually think Immelmann has been excellent for us too, so in vd Merwe. Immelman, Boff, Graham, Hoyland and Goosen we've got the best back three pool we've ever had. The young academy lads have got a very high bar to aim for.
Currie is growing into a good 13, Savala too is improving with game time - who'd a thunk it?

I'm still not taken with Debruin, McCallum should come back to us. Williams has looked good this season. Sykes must be horrible to play against, Crosbie and Muncaster - can they make the step up to the next level? I like them both and I think the back row is as strong a pool as the back three, I hope the laddie Boyle is ok, he took a very heavy knock.

The only thing I'm going to say about the international game, because I've read all sorts, is that it's not too long since I was reading the question, "How the hell can Russell take the kicks for Scotland if he's not trusted to take them for his club?"

I agree about Dean. Also what's his international quality? When international rugby your skills need to be that but sharper, you have that split second less and you have bigger players what's he going to do to really belong? Amazing player for Edinburgh though.

It's a fair point about Russell, but he did kick for Glasgow and does for Racing now Machenaud (a world class kicker) has left. I was concerned about his kicking but Russell did previously and does again kick for his club. If Kinghorn kicked for Edinburgh regularly I'd be a lot more forgiving but he doesn't. And again, it's not a criticism of Kinghorn, it's on Townsend. As one of Kinghorn's bigger fans (And I agree you've been right more often than not about him at 10) do you genuinely believe he's an international quality goal kicker?

[weegie01]

I always remember Kinghorn's kicking as being decent up until the last year ish. Am I misremembering or has focusing on 10 been to the detriment of his kicking practice?

I said further up that I was sure I had seen his kicking stats were pretty decent, but haven't looked. I think it's a bit of red herring anyway to be honest

He has always been a streaky kicker. Can be very good, very bad, or anything in between.

[Tichtheid]

As one of Kinghorn's bigger fans (And I agree you've been right more often than not about him at 10) do you genuinely believe he's an international quality goal kicker?

Right now? No, I don't think he's an international standard goal kicker.

Having said that, think back 14 months, The Blair Switch Project had only just begun, prior to that he'd started maybe three games at fly half as cover. 14 months ago Kinghorn wasn't a club level fly half at any of skills needed to play that position, his positioning was not great, his passing was inconsistent to say the least, his defending was a bit ropey, but his pace got him out of a few sticky situations. His concentration was poor. He could see a gap before anyone else on the park and he had the pace to burst through it, but that was about it. He was all potential and no backlog of performances as a 10, he had no credit whatsoever.

The distance he's come in each of those aspects is beyond even what I'd hoped to see in him, he's 25 now, what he going to be like at 27?

So no, I don't think he's an international quality goal kicker right now, but I think it would be foolish to bet against him becoming one by this time next year.

By the way, on his try, that was no fluke, he didn't get lucky with the bounce of the ball or whatever, that's the third try he's scored with those footballing skills since moving to fly half.
I remember Toonie saying that Kinghorn was the quickest player in the Scotland squad - that was prior to van der Merwe joining so I don't know if that still stands, but he left the wee scrum half and their winger in his wake, and he had to control the ball as opposed to just run flat out like the Aussies did.

[dpedin]

As one of Kinghorn's bigger fans (And I agree you've been right more often than not about him at 10) do you genuinely believe he's an international quality goal kicker?

Right now? No, I don't think he's an international standard goal kicker.

Having said that, think back 14 months, The Blair Switch Project had only just begun, prior to that he'd started maybe three games at fly half as cover. 14 months ago Kinghorn wasn't a club level fly half at any of skills needed to play that position, his positioning was not great, his passing was inconsistent to say the least, his defending was a bit ropey, but his pace got him out of a few sticky situations. His concentration was poor. He could see a gap before anyone else on the park and he had the pace to burst through it, but that was about it. He was all potential and no backlog of performances as a 10, he had no credit whatsoever.

The distance he's come in each of those aspects is beyond even what I'd hoped to see in him, he's 25 now, what he going to be like at 27?

So no, I don't think he's an international quality goal kicker right now, but I think it would be foolish to bet against him becoming one by this time next year.

By the way, on his try, that was no fluke, he didn't get lucky with the bounce of the ball or whatever, that's the third try he's scored with those footballing skills since moving to fly half.
I remember Toonie saying that Kinghorn was the quickest player in the Scotland squad - that was prior to van der Merwe joining so I don't know if that still stands, but he left the wee scrum half and their winger in his wake, and he had to control the ball as opposed to just run flat out like the Aussies did.

Agree with all of this. Kinghorn is one of the most gifted rugby players around at the moment. He is still learning his trade at 10 yet is performing at the top level and doing very well. He will continue to get better and better and most other countries would be desperate to have someone with his skill set at 10. When he plays with Edinburgh he scares the sh1t out of defences and creates so many tries for us with his pace and eye for a gap. It will take him some more games to translate this at international level. I agree that his goal kicking isn't yet up there but it is a teachable skill and with Pattersons help and practice he will get better. I just get pissed off with the criticism of the player who has agreed to be switched to 10, as suggested by Blair and Townsend, for the good of his club and country and his working so hard to become better, he deserves as much encouragement as possible not endless criticism.

[Simian]

As one of Kinghorn's bigger fans (And I agree you've been right more often than not about him at 10) do you genuinely believe he's an international quality goal kicker?

Right now? No, I don't think he's an international standard goal kicker.

Having said that, think back 14 months, The Blair Switch Project had only just begun, prior to that he'd started maybe three games at fly half as cover. 14 months ago Kinghorn wasn't a club level fly half at any of skills needed to play that position, his positioning was not great, his passing was inconsistent to say the least, his defending was a bit ropey, but his pace got him out of a few sticky situations. His concentration was poor. He could see a gap before anyone else on the park and he had the pace to burst through it, but that was about it. He was all potential and no backlog of performances as a 10, he had no credit whatsoever.

The distance he's come in each of those aspects is beyond even what I'd hoped to see in him, he's 25 now, what he going to be like at 27?

So no, I don't think he's an international quality goal kicker right now, but I think it would be foolish to bet against him becoming one by this time next year.

By the way, on his try, that was no fluke, he didn't get lucky with the bounce of the ball or whatever, that's the third try he's scored with those footballing skills since moving to fly half.
I remember Toonie saying that Kinghorn was the quickest player in the Scotland squad - that was prior to van der Merwe joining so I don't know if that still stands, but he left the wee scrum half and their winger in his wake, and he had to control the ball as opposed to just run flat out like the Aussies did.

Agree with all of this. Kinghorn is one of the most gifted rugby players around at the moment. He is still learning his trade at 10 yet is performing at the top level and doing very well. He will continue to get better and better and most other countries would be desperate to have someone with his skill set at 10. When he plays with Edinburgh he scares the sh1t out of defences and creates so many tries for us with his pace and eye for a gap. It will take him some more games to translate this at international level. I agree that his goal kicking isn't yet up there but it is a teachable skill and with Pattersons help and practice he will get better. I just get pissed off with the criticism of the player who has agreed to be switched to 10, as suggested by Blair and Townsend, for the good of his club and country and his working so hard to become better, he deserves as much encouragement as possible not endless criticism.

Though I agree he’s getting unfair flak, these sorts of arguments seem to largely ignore the fundamental questions of whether moving him to ten was (a) necessary and (b) the best fit between his skill set and where we lacked skilled players. I’m also puzzled by the number of people who are so confident about him showing sustained improvement over time at ten. That’s not really what happened with the positions he played before the switch.

Would I have him in the squad? For sure. Do I think the amount of opportunities being afforded him to develop at the expense of developing others (and other combinations) is a massive gamble? Absolutely.

[Tichtheid]

Though I agree he’s getting unfair flak, these sorts of arguments seem to largely ignore the fundamental questions of whether moving him to ten was (a) necessary and (b) the best fit between his skill set and where we lacked skilled players. I’m also puzzled by the number of people who are so confident about him showing sustained improvement over time at ten. That’s not really what happened with the positions he played before the switch.

All players develop differently, iirc when Kinghorn joined Edinburgh as a teenager he was playing in the back three for Scotland age groups to accommodate Hastings at 10.
At the time Edinburgh's back three were Fife, Cuthbert and Brown, whilst the starting 10s were Greig Tonks and Jason Tovey. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight Kinghorn should have been playing 10 at that point, but that wasn't going to happen with the setup we had at that time.

Kinghorn and Mike Blair have both said that losing focus was a bit of a problem for him during games, but at 10 you just don't get that opportunity, same for 9.

Would I have him in the squad? For sure. Do I think the amount of opportunities being afforded him to develop at the expense of developing others (and other combinations) is a massive gamble? Absolutely.

What's the gamble? Worst case is he's playing at the level he is now and he covers fullback and wing at the RWC, with Finn and Hastings as one and two in those positions.
We know what Finn is capable of, we also know what Hastings can do, going by what I've seen at club level, along with BK, apart from those three I can't honestly think of anyone else at 10 who is a genuine contender at fly half for the Scottish world cup squad, not without a big drop off.

Kinghorn and Hastings will also be around for another world cup cycle, as will the likes of Thompson and Savala.

[I like neeps]

As one of Kinghorn's bigger fans (And I agree you've been right more often than not about him at 10) do you genuinely believe he's an international quality goal kicker?

Right now? No, I don't think he's an international standard goal kicker.

Having said that, think back 14 months, The Blair Switch Project had only just begun, prior to that he'd started maybe three games at fly half as cover. 14 months ago Kinghorn wasn't a club level fly half at any of skills needed to play that position, his positioning was not great, his passing was inconsistent to say the least, his defending was a bit ropey, but his pace got him out of a few sticky situations. His concentration was poor. He could see a gap before anyone else on the park and he had the pace to burst through it, but that was about it. He was all potential and no backlog of performances as a 10, he had no credit whatsoever.

The distance he's come in each of those aspects is beyond even what I'd hoped to see in him, he's 25 now, what he going to be like at 27?

So no, I don't think he's an international quality goal kicker right now, but I think it would be foolish to bet against him becoming one by this time next year.

By the way, on his try, that was no fluke, he didn't get lucky with the bounce of the ball or whatever, that's the third try he's scored with those footballing skills since moving to fly half.
I remember Toonie saying that Kinghorn was the quickest player in the Scotland squad - that was prior to van der Merwe joining so I don't know if that still stands, but he left the wee scrum half and their winger in his wake, and he had to control the ball as opposed to just run flat out like the Aussies did.

Blair switch project that's terrific.

Where is he going to learn to kick unless Bofelli gets injured though? And earlier this year was Bennett not taking conversions ahead of Kinghorn (maybe an option for Scotland). I just don't think you can accommodate a poor goalkicker in the hope that they will learn (I wonder as your 10 doesn't need to be your kicker why he wasn't being trained in his time at 15 for Edinburgh) by a world cup as you will lose games with a bad kicker. Again, that's not a Kinghorn problem it's a Townsend problem. I appreciate you have to allow players the chance to develop internationally.

[Big D]

Fuck it get wee Fin, big Finn, Kinghorn, Duhan, Darcy and Hoggy all in the backline. Let's give that a lash

[Slick]

Right now? No, I don't think he's an international standard goal kicker.

Having said that, think back 14 months, The Blair Switch Project had only just begun, prior to that he'd started maybe three games at fly half as cover. 14 months ago Kinghorn wasn't a club level fly half at any of skills needed to play that position, his positioning was not great, his passing was inconsistent to say the least, his defending was a bit ropey, but his pace got him out of a few sticky situations. His concentration was poor. He could see a gap before anyone else on the park and he had the pace to burst through it, but that was about it. He was all potential and no backlog of performances as a 10, he had no credit whatsoever.

The distance he's come in each of those aspects is beyond even what I'd hoped to see in him, he's 25 now, what he going to be like at 27?

So no, I don't think he's an international quality goal kicker right now, but I think it would be foolish to bet against him becoming one by this time next year.

By the way, on his try, that was no fluke, he didn't get lucky with the bounce of the ball or whatever, that's the third try he's scored with those footballing skills since moving to fly half.
I remember Toonie saying that Kinghorn was the quickest player in the Scotland squad - that was prior to van der Merwe joining so I don't know if that still stands, but he left the wee scrum half and their winger in his wake, and he had to control the ball as opposed to just run flat out like the Aussies did.

Agree with all of this. Kinghorn is one of the most gifted rugby players around at the moment. He is still learning his trade at 10 yet is performing at the top level and doing very well. He will continue to get better and better and most other countries would be desperate to have someone with his skill set at 10. When he plays with Edinburgh he scares the sh1t out of defences and creates so many tries for us with his pace and eye for a gap. It will take him some more games to translate this at international level. I agree that his goal kicking isn't yet up there but it is a teachable skill and with Pattersons help and practice he will get better. I just get pissed off with the criticism of the player who has agreed to be switched to 10, as suggested by Blair and Townsend, for the good of his club and country and his working so hard to become better, he deserves as much encouragement as possible not endless criticism.

Though I agree he’s getting unfair flak, these sorts of arguments seem to largely ignore the fundamental questions of whether moving him to ten was (a) necessary and (b) the best fit between his skill set and where we lacked skilled players. I’m also puzzled by the number of people who are so confident about him showing sustained improvement over time at ten. That’s not really what happened with the positions he played before the switch.

Would I have him in the squad? For sure. Do I think the amount of opportunities being afforded him to develop at the expense of developing others (and other combinations) is a massive gamble? Absolutely.

Yup, I agree. he kind of plateaued at 15 because his fantastic natural skills in the end couldn't make up for his deficiencies and I think it's the same with him at 10. He has amazing skills and can make those breaks others can't, but, in my opinion the downsides such as positional, play, defence and game management, whilst at a half decent level, are not top level and the rest doesn't make up for it.

I genuinely feel for the guy because he is now in the situation where his detractors are being unfair and picking up on any little slip whilst his supporters are going overboard on things that are really very basic stand off skills and he is stuck in the middle.

[I like neeps]

Agree with all of this. Kinghorn is one of the most gifted rugby players around at the moment. He is still learning his trade at 10 yet is performing at the top level and doing very well. He will continue to get better and better and most other countries would be desperate to have someone with his skill set at 10. When he plays with Edinburgh he scares the sh1t out of defences and creates so many tries for us with his pace and eye for a gap. It will take him some more games to translate this at international level. I agree that his goal kicking isn't yet up there but it is a teachable skill and with Pattersons help and practice he will get better. I just get pissed off with the criticism of the player who has agreed to be switched to 10, as suggested by Blair and Townsend, for the good of his club and country and his working so hard to become better, he deserves as much encouragement as possible not endless criticism.

Though I agree he’s getting unfair flak, these sorts of arguments seem to largely ignore the fundamental questions of whether moving him to ten was (a) necessary and (b) the best fit between his skill set and where we lacked skilled players. I’m also puzzled by the number of people who are so confident about him showing sustained improvement over time at ten. That’s not really what happened with the positions he played before the switch.

Would I have him in the squad? For sure. Do I think the amount of opportunities being afforded him to develop at the expense of developing others (and other combinations) is a massive gamble? Absolutely.

Yup, I agree. he kind of plateaued at 15 because his fantastic natural skills in the end couldn't make up for his deficiencies and I think it's the same with him at 10. He has amazing skills and can make those breaks others can't, but, in my opinion the downsides such as positional, play, defence and game management, whilst at a half decent level, are not top level and the rest doesn't make up for it.

I genuinely feel for the guy because he is now in the situation where his detractors are being unfair and picking up on any little slip whilst his supporters are going overboard on things that are really very basic stand off skills and he is stuck in the middle.

I'm not sure this is fair, his weakness at fifteen was defence and drifting in and out of games but his problem in the end was we no longer saw the natural talent. The game breaking kind of stopped for long periods and the weaknesses were too hard to ignore. Sure the Richard Cockerill factor comes into play there. If Hogg got injured tomorrow Smith would start Vs Fiji I doubt Kinghorn is considered a serious option there these days.

I don't think his game management is that bad. He makes mistakes but I think the game breaking playmaking makes up for them. I'd much rather have him at 10 than Ross Thompson for Scotland or vdw or Savala for Edinburgh.

Kinghorn's biggest problem is he isn't Finn Russell. Which was Hastings biggest problem until he got the not Blair Kinghorn boost. And that he's not an international quality goal kicker. But those aren't his fault. I think if you look at him purely for the player he is he's actually okay. I think potentially we all saw the 19/20 year old tear up for Edinburgh and thought we had an amazing player on our hands and that didn't materialise either and he's never shaken that disappointment from us.

[Tichtheid]

Something I forgot to mention earlier - how good was Paddy Harrison?

He has played well in the past, but I think that was the 20-year old's best game for Edinburgh so far, he and Ashman are going to go at it hammer and tongs for some time.

I hear Harri Morris is pretty much playing at hooker now, he must be about ages with Harrison, maybe a bit younger

[Simian]

Though I agree he’s getting unfair flak, these sorts of arguments seem to largely ignore the fundamental questions of whether moving him to ten was (a) necessary and (b) the best fit between his skill set and where we lacked skilled players. I’m also puzzled by the number of people who are so confident about him showing sustained improvement over time at ten. That’s not really what happened with the positions he played before the switch.

All players develop differently, iirc when Kinghorn joined Edinburgh as a teenager he was playing in the back three for Scotland age groups to accommodate Hastings at 10.
At the time Edinburgh's back three were Fife, Cuthbert and Brown, whilst the starting 10s were Greig Tonks and Jason Tovey. With the benefit of 20/20 hindsight Kinghorn should have been playing 10 at that point, but that wasn't going to happen with the setup we had at that time.

Kinghorn and Mike Blair have both said that losing focus was a bit of a problem for him during games, but at 10 you just don't get that opportunity, same for 9.

Would I have him in the squad? For sure. Do I think the amount of opportunities being afforded him to develop at the expense of developing others (and other combinations) is a massive gamble? Absolutely.

What's the gamble? Worst case is he's playing at the level he is now and he covers fullback and wing at the RWC, with Finn and Hastings as one and two in those positions.
We know what Finn is capable of, we also know what Hastings can do, going by what I've seen at club level, along with BK, apart from those three I can't honestly think of anyone else at 10 who is a genuine contender at fly half for the Scottish world cup squad, not without a big drop off.

Kinghorn and Hastings will also be around for another world cup cycle, as will the likes of Thompson and Savala.

So, according to your post, we're playing a guy at ten for Scotland because he can't focus enough during games to play anywhere other than 9 or 10 and because we have good options at 10 but we know what they can do? and one of those guys isn't even in the squad. I mean, I get that you're pushing back against the hassle BK gets, but you must understand that that is simply a ridiculous argument?