The Official English Rugby Thread

[sockwithaticket]

This is what I reckon Eddie will pick. The pack largely sorts itself out with the absentees and the 'who?' quality of many of those called up to cover.

1 Genge
2 LCD
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Willis
7 Curry
8 Billy V

9 Youngs
10 Smith

11 May
12 Farrell (C)
13 Tuilagi/Porter (in the likely event that Manu ends up crying off)
14 Cokanasiga
15 Steward

There's been an alarming tendency to go for 6 -2 splits in recent times.
16. Singleton
17. Mako (he hasn't been recalled to be left out)
18. Ruskin (because Eddie's explictly stated they're looking at him as tighthead cover and to add flexibility to the world cup squad. Could be bollocks for the media, but if it's even remotely true he's going to want to try it out).
19. Tizard
20. Simmonds
21. Coles (because England must have a lock/flanker type)
22. Van Portvliet
23. Slade/Malins

How many of those 23/24 players are genuinely the best EQPs in that position? I reckon 8 in the starting XV (just) and 2 at a pinch on the bench.

That's probably about right tbf. Of course in a few cases injury has robbed us of a better choice, but that's always the way.

[Kawazaki]

This is what I reckon Eddie will pick. The pack largely sorts itself out with the absentees and the 'who?' quality of many of those called up to cover.

1 Genge
2 LCD
3 Sinckler
4 Itoje
5 Hill
6 Willis
7 Curry
8 Billy V

9 Youngs
10 Smith

11 May
12 Farrell (C)
13 Tuilagi/Porter (in the likely event that Manu ends up crying off)
14 Cokanasiga
15 Steward

There's been an alarming tendency to go for 6 -2 splits in recent times.
16. Singleton
17. Mako (he hasn't been recalled to be left out)
18. Ruskin (because Eddie's explictly stated they're looking at him as tighthead cover and to add flexibility to the world cup squad. Could be bollocks for the media, but if it's even remotely true he's going to want to try it out).
19. Tizard
20. Simmonds
21. Coles (because England must have a lock/flanker type)
22. Van Portvliet
23. Slade/Malins

How many of those 23/24 players are genuinely the best EQPs in that position? I reckon 8 in the starting XV (just) and 2 at a pinch on the bench.

That's probably about right tbf. Of course in a few cases injury has robbed us of a better choice, but that's always the way.

Youngs is keeping out at least 3 players better than him. And I'm talking about serious daylight.
Similarly, May should be nowhere near the team, there are probably at least 10 EQP wingers better than him at the moment. OHC should rightfully be mad as hell. I think Jones is taking the piss actually.

Earl is playing better than he ever has - fuck knows what he's done to piss off the fool.

[JM2K6]

Whoa now let's not pretend Porter was only bad in the 3rd Test, he had a shocker in the second one too

[sockwithaticket]

Skimmed an absolute nothing article about Billy on the Guardian site and this quote stood out a bit:

I didn’t want to say anything that hurt my chances of coming back in. That’s a big reason why I stayed away from it [offers of speaking engagements at Twickers], because I feel a lot of people have made the mistake of calling Eddie out – not directly but through the media and it has backfired a lot of the times.

Maybe I'm failing to remember someone really obvious, but I can't think of many players who've said anything about Eddie in the press. The closest are the likes of Cipriani and Brown at a point when their careers as rugby players, let alone as England players, were over or nearly at an end. Definitely can't recall having read or heard from any who were playing and of an age profile where that would make an England recall a possibility (however remote).

Of course it could be some bollocks he's muddled up in his head. After all, Billy bought the BLM are bible burners bit and used that as his justification for not taking a knee.

[Paddington Bear]

Isn't this more a tacit admission that the last time he did these speaking circuits (2015 WC) he made it far too clear how much he hated the set up? Probably regrets doing so

[SaintK]

Dan Biggar has left Saints with immediate effect. Good luck to him, I wonder if Toulon fans will take to him the way Saints fans did?

“While we’re losing him earlier than expected, we respect that he has been presented with a unique long-term opportunity in France and has made a decision with the future of his family in mind, so we did not want to stand in his way.”
Phil Dowson, Director of Rugby

https://www.northamptonsaints.co.uk/ne ... te-effect

[mos_eisely_]

Saves a decent amount of money, and with Smith looking thr real deal

[Oxbow]

Biggar never gave less than 100%, but he was often either injured or away with Wales. Fin Smith will be our saviour.

[Margin__Walker]

Here it is. 6:2 split. Coles starts on debut. Maro to 6. Slow

Starters
15. Freddie Steward
14. Jack Nowell (VC)
13. Manu Tuilagi
12. Owen Farrell (C)
11. Joe Cokanasiga
10. Marcus Smith
9. Ben Youngs
1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. Alex Coles
5. Jonny Hill
6. Maro Itoje
7. Tom Curry
8. Billy Vunipola

Finishers
16. Jack Singleton
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Joe Heyes
19. David Ribbans
20. Sam Simmonds
21. Jack Willis
22. Jack van Poortlviet
23. Henry Slade

[Oxbow]

Jesus, that backline. Happy for Coles, he's been playing really well this season but it's just plain Eddie knows best playing him at lock and Itoje at 6.

[Paddington Bear]

Should have too much for Argentina and Japan but still a little underwhelming

[Hal Jordan]

When neither of your two automatic first choice backrow picks (when fit) are lineout options, you either pick a blindside who is, or you pick a 5.5.

I think Robshaw was probably the last time we had an actual backrower who was a consistent source of lineout ball.

[SaintK]

Jesus, that backline. Happy for Coles, he's been playing really well this season but it's just plain Eddie knows best playing him at lock and Itoje at 6.

Yep. Coles having a good season playing at 6 for Saints. Can't recall the last time Itoje played 6 at all!!

[ASMO]

Fuck me, how slow is that backline?

Just dont get Itoje at 6, Eddie is just a tosser and i truthfully believe he is doing it to piss people off, he doesnt give a shit anymore.

[sockwithaticket]

I suppose the logic is that it'll be pissing it down and so we won't be trying to play much ergo a quick back three isn't necessary.

a 6 - 2 split is risky at the best of times, it seems positively cavalier when Tuilagi's part of the backline. Two injuries and van Poortvliet could be doing a sizeable stint at fly half or on the wing like Robson in the recent past.

[Raggs]

I suppose the logic is that it'll be pissing it down and so we won't be trying to play much ergo a quick back three isn't necessary.

a 6 - 2 split is risky at the best of times, it seems positively cavalier when Tuilagi's part of the backline. Two injuries and van Poortvliet could be doing a sizeable stint at fly half or on the wing like Robson in the recent past.

Lets be honest, Joe C, Nowell and Tuilagi could all go down and it wouldn't be the greatest surprise.

[JM2K6]

Fuck me, how slow is that backline?

Just dont get Itoje at 6, Eddie is just a tosser and i truthfully believe he is doing it to piss people off, he doesnt give a shit anymore.

Don't be silly.

He's doing it because he genuinely believes England can't compete in a skill based contest and that straight running, contact seeking, and mauling is what England are good at and the only thing they'll be good at.

[Hal Jordan]

Fuck me, how slow is that backline?

Not so much sledgehammer as sludgehammer.

[sockwithaticket]

Fuck me, how slow is that backline?

Just dont get Itoje at 6, Eddie is just a tosser and i truthfully believe he is doing it to piss people off, he doesnt give a shit anymore.

Don't be silly.

He's doing it because he genuinely believes England can't compete in a skill based contest and that straight running, contact seeking, and mauling is what England are good at and the only thing they'll be good at.

Even if that weren't the case, the amount of coaching turnover must make it difficult to coach anything but a fairly simple game.

I suppose the logic is that it'll be pissing it down and so we won't be trying to play much ergo a quick back three isn't necessary.

a 6 - 2 split is risky at the best of times, it seems positively cavalier when Tuilagi's part of the backline. Two injuries and van Poortvliet could be doing a sizeable stint at fly half or on the wing like Robson in the recent past.

Lets be honest, Joe C, Nowell and Tuilagi could all go down and it wouldn't be the greatest surprise.

Indeed, which makes 6 - 2 all the more baffling.

[Kawazaki]

Skimmed an absolute nothing article about Billy on the Guardian site and this quote stood out a bit:

I didn’t want to say anything that hurt my chances of coming back in. That’s a big reason why I stayed away from it [offers of speaking engagements at Twickers], because I feel a lot of people have made the mistake of calling Eddie out – not directly but through the media and it has backfired a lot of the times.

Maybe I'm failing to remember someone really obvious, but I can't think of many players who've said anything about Eddie in the press. The closest are the likes of Cipriani and Brown at a point when their careers as rugby players, let alone as England players, were over or nearly at an end. Definitely can't recall having read or heard from any who were playing and of an age profile where that would make an England recall a possibility (however remote).

Of course it could be some bollocks he's muddled up in his head. After all, Billy bought the BLM are bible burners bit and used that as his justification for not taking a knee.

I don't think it's criticism, I think it's literally saying anything in the press. The Jones ego is all-seeing.

[Kawazaki]

Bristol v Saracens - November 5th 2022, 5pm KO

Pat Lam calls substitutes 'System Players'

FFS


Bristol

1. Yann Thomas
2. Bryan Byrne
3. Jay Tyack
4. Ed Holmes
5. Joe Batley
6. Magnus Bradbury
7. Jake Heenan (c)
8. Fitz Harding
9. Will Porter
10. Callum Sheedy
11. Gabriel Ibitoye
12. Sam Bedlow
13. Joe Jenkins
14. Deago Bailey
15. Luke Morahan

System players:
16. Harry Thacker
17. Jake Woolmore
18. Jonathan Benz-Salomon
19. John Hawkins
20. Dan Thomas
21. Andy Uren
22. Ioan Lloyd
23. Jack Bates


Saracens

1 Robin Hislop
2 Theo Dan
3 Marco Riccioni
4 Callum Hunter-Hill
5 Hugh Tizard
6 Andy Christie
7 Ben Earl (c)
8 Jackson Wray
9 Ivan van Zyl
10 Alex Goode
11 Sean Maitland
12 Alex Lozowski
13 Elliot Daly
14 Alex Lewington
15 Max Malins

Replacements:
16 Ethan Lewis
17 James Flynn
18 Alec Clarey
19 Andrew Kitchener
20 Toby Knight
21 Gareth Simpson
22 Josh Hallett
23 Tom Howe



I like to try and downplay things when Saracens are playing but I don't think I can do that. Bristol look shit and they have an epically shite coach. Saracens by 17pts.

[Hal Jordan]

I get the feeling some coaches look at the NFL's rotation of players on specific downs with envy. Or rolling subs like hockey. Pick three extra flankers (or locks if you're Jones) and then rotate them out at scrum time for the front row.

[JM2K6]

That's a Championship grade Bristol side against a side with, what, 10 internationals including a couple of Lions? It'll be a slaughter.

[Kawazaki]

That's a Championship grade Bristol side against a side with, what, 10 internationals including a couple of Lions? It'll be a slaughter.

Bristol are almost certainly spending right up to the cap limit. That squad and team is a dreadful reflection on Pat Lam and his recruitment and remuneration strategy.

I will tell you one metric where Bristol will be top of the league - salary standard deviation.

[JM2K6]

That's a Championship grade Bristol side against a side with, what, 10 internationals including a couple of Lions? It'll be a slaughter.

Bristol are almost certainly spending right up to the cap limit. That squad and team is a dreadful reflection on Pat Lam and his recruitment and remuneration strategy.

I will tell you one metric where Bristol will be top of the league - salary standard deviation.

Yup, they have a number of very expensive players, almost all of them not available.

[Kawazaki]

If Bristol lose tomorrow - and, Mockers aside, I'm fairly sure they will - then that will be Bristol's fifth loss on the trot after winning their first 3 (including a win against Wasps which has now been annulled). It's looking more and more likely that their finishing position in 10th last year was not a blip. Lam seems to think that buying in players is the way to build a team - when will these DORs learn?

[JM2K6]

Everyone buys in. I think plenty of that Bris side are home grown, no?

[Paddington Bear]

Lots of kick chase so far at Franklin’s Gardens

[SaintK]

Saints need to spend what was Biggars salary on a couple of hairy arsed props. Don’t think they’ve completed a scrum yet without a penalty or free kick

[Paddington Bear]

That has to be a red. How is CMK a professional ref

[sockwithaticket]

Freeman back and scoring for Saints. Hopefully he can come back into the England reckoning over the Autumn. Goodness knows we need a back three spark.

Everyone buys in. I think plenty of that Bris side are home grown, no?

Yeah, in terms of composition they're not really any different to anyone else. A mix of academy talent, former Championship players and bought in talent.

Their main issue now is that guys they did get on the cheap initially are probably wanting wage increases as befits the fact they're now established Prem players, yet an awful lot of the cap is bound up in a handful of names.

[ASMO]

A bit of a spackerfest, but Saints manage to stagger over the line. Exeter are a bit of a shambles at the moment.

[Oxbow]

Not the best of games but I'll take the win. Fin Smith looks like he could be a very good player, England should get hold of him before the Scots do.

[Paddington Bear]

Yep shit game, read a book and half watched the second half. Exeter are so phenomenally one dimensional

[SaintK]

Not the best of games but I'll take the win. Fin Smith looks like he could be a very good player, England should get hold of him before the Scots do.

Thought Saints were worth the win. Could have been by more if they hadn't lost 2 lineouts on their throw in the Exeter 22
Our Scottish friends on the bored are anxious for Townsend to nab Smith as soonest!

[sockwithaticket]

Not the best of games but I'll take the win. Fin Smith looks like he could be a very good player, England should get hold of him before the Scots do.

I hate that we have to think like this. He's 20, it'd be best for him if both countries just left him alone to get at least a season of settling in at his new club as the starter under his belt.

I hope he knows he doesn't need to make any imminenet decisions, at least not until after the world cup where there will, as ever, be changing of the guard for both coaching and playing staff.

[Oxbow]

Not the best of games but I'll take the win. Fin Smith looks like he could be a very good player, England should get hold of him before the Scots do.

I hate that we have to think like this. He's 20, it'd be best for him if both countries just left him alone to get at least a season of settling in at his new club as the starter under his belt.

I hope he knows he doesn't need to make any imminenet decisions, at least not until after the world cup where there will, as ever, be changing of the guard for both coaching and playing staff.

Oh yeah, I agree with that, I'd much rather he was left alone to bed in at Saints, but Scotland (at least on here anyway) do seem to be extremely keen on him.

[sockwithaticket]

Not the best of games but I'll take the win. Fin Smith looks like he could be a very good player, England should get hold of him before the Scots do.

I hate that we have to think like this. He's 20, it'd be best for him if both countries just left him alone to get at least a season of settling in at his new club as the starter under his belt.

I hope he knows he doesn't need to make any imminenet decisions, at least not until after the world cup where there will, as ever, be changing of the guard for both coaching and playing staff.

Oh yeah, I agree with that, I'd much rather he was left alone to bed in at Saints, but Scotland (at least on here anyway) do seem to be extremely keen on him.

That'd be in part because their 10 pool outside of Russel isn't all that I guess.

Also, maybe it's an on here thing, there seem's to be a real "gotta catch 'em all" attitude towards any player who's even remotely Scottish qualified.

[JM2K6]

Eddie Jones.

“[In 2019] we didn’t have the number of red and yellow cards we do now. If you look at how the game is going, that is only going to increase,” said Jones. “And the care for the players in terms of head injuries is only going to increase. We don’t know where it is going to end. Whereas the game up to 2019 was much more settled. The world was more settled. You look at BBC News, mortgage rates are going up, unemployment is going to double, TMOs are going to become more powerful … it is all on the BBC, you just have to watch it every day"

[Kawazaki]

Eddie Jones.

“[In 2019] we didn’t have the number of red and yellow cards we do now. If you look at how the game is going, that is only going to increase,” said Jones. “And the care for the players in terms of head injuries is only going to increase. We don’t know where it is going to end. Whereas the game up to 2019 was much more settled. The world was more settled. You look at BBC News, mortgage rates are going up, unemployment is going to double, TMOs are going to become more powerful … it is all on the BBC, you just have to watch it every day"

Jones is smart enough to know he's being found out.