Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Ovals]

It's all very well saying that it's the system you have, & how many times it's happened before; but I'd be sure most of these transitions had people making exactly the same complaints at the time. You just don't change the Leader of the Country like you do your socks, so if there's a reason why you have to, it's almost certainly an inflection point for the entire Country, & not just the Party.

The other thing that makes these transitions controversial, is if the new PM decides to tear up the Manifesto, that brought the party to power, & pretend that having no mandate isn't a problem; that was Truss's mistake. Now the Tories are going to double down, & implement austerity, without ever levelling with the Country, or offering the voters a chance to choose between Manifestos on how to get out of the hole 12 years of Tory Governments have stuck the Country in ?

Part of me waves that off because manifestos have long been proven to not be worth the paper their written on once a part actually ascends to power, but, yes, in principal, a government diverging from the manifesto on which their parliamentary party last ran for election on should be cause for a general. Put the new proposed direction before the country and see if they still want your party to have the parliamentary presence to go through with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong; but aren't manifesto bills, no matter how vile, racist, or corrupt, ones that cannot be blocked by the Lords ?

That's a very important tool for ramming home legislation that while the opposition might not like it, the voters have signalled their willingness to go along with it.

In the current circumstances, that may mean the difference between the Tories choosing to fund the fuel crisis thru debt, & cutbacks; or Labour taxing the energy companies excess profits; that's a big damn difference, & I'd say the Labour peers would be entitled to block it; because there's no mandate.

Bills brought before the HofL based on Manifesto pledges, have no more standing than any other Bills. Politically they may have more validity but there's nothing to stop the Lords voting in any way they please.

[Mahoney]

Bills brought before the HofL based on Manifesto pledges, have no more standing than any other Bills. Politically they may have more validity but there's nothing to stop the Lords voting in any way they please.

It's stronger than that - the Salisbury Convention is that the Lords "will not oppose the second or third reading of any government legislation promised in its election manifesto".

Like a lot of our constitution it's just a convention, but the Lords have stuck by it.

[Ovals]

Bills brought before the HofL based on Manifesto pledges, have no more standing than any other Bills. Politically they may have more validity but there's nothing to stop the Lords voting in any way they please.

It's stronger than that - the Salisbury Convention is that the Lords "will not oppose the second or third reading of any government legislation promised in its election manifesto".

Like a lot of our constitution it's just a convention, but the Lords have stuck by it.

[Happyhooker]

Part of me waves that off because manifestos have long been proven to not be worth the paper their written on once a part actually ascends to power, but, yes, in principal, a government diverging from the manifesto on which their parliamentary party last ran for election on should be cause for a general. Put the new proposed direction before the country and see if they still want your party to have the parliamentary presence to go through with it.

Correct me if I'm wrong; but aren't manifesto bills, no matter how vile, racist, or corrupt, ones that cannot be blocked by the Lords ?

That's a very important tool for ramming home legislation that while the opposition might not like it, the voters have signalled their willingness to go along with it.

In the current circumstances, that may mean the difference between the Tories choosing to fund the fuel crisis thru debt, & cutbacks; or Labour taxing the energy companies excess profits; that's a big damn difference, & I'd say the Labour peers would be entitled to block it; because there's no mandate.

Bills brought before the HofL based on Manifesto pledges, have no more standing than any other Bills. Politically they may have more validity but there's nothing to stop the Lords voting in any way they please.

Nope
Salisbury doctrine - says that the HoL will not try and vote down in 2nd or 3rd readings a government bill that is mentioned in their manifesto

edit. screw you mahoney

[petej]

Whatever we think about the Tories and Rishi, this is still a historic moment.

Yep, not everyone seems pleased though...

A lot of unhappy people, bots and kind contributors in st petersburgh. It is remarkable how many don't understand representative democracy. If they struggle with that the EU would be very confusing.

[Jockaline]

If we had a sysetm where a new PM had to call a GE - no Party would ever chuck their PM out, no matter how awful they were.

It might work if they had a year so the could establish themselves.

[SaintK]

Bugger off Hancock, you ain't getting a job

[Raggs]

See, I saw this and didn't think it's as bad as made out. Hancock is clearly at least a couple of steps behind the frontline.

[Insane_Homer]

[SaintK]

See, I saw this and didn't think it's as bad as made out. Hancock is clearly at least a couple of steps behind the frontline.

But his little face says it all

[C69]

So we have a Hindu PM.
What would have happened if he was a Catholic?

[Lobby]

So we have a Hindu PM.
What would have happened if he was a Catholic?

Probably nothing, after all Bojo was baptised a Catholic and married Princess Nut Nut in Westminster Cathedral, Blair often attended Catholic masses while he was PM and formally converted to Catholicism on leaving office and it was claimed that Theresa May was an 'Anglo Catholic' by Michael Gove. I don't think anyone really cares anymore in the UK.

The only people who appear to be particularly exercised about these things are those virulently racist Tory Party members who claim to be tearing up their membership cards, and they are more upset that Sunak is brown than by his religion.

[fishfoodie]

So we have a Hindu PM.
What would have happened if he was a Catholic?

Probably nothing, after all Bojo was baptised a Catholic and married Princess Nut Nut in Westminster Cathedral, Blair often attended Catholic masses while he was PM and formally converted to Catholicism on leaving office and it was claimed that Theresa May was an 'Anglo Catholic' by Michael Gove. I don't think anyone really cares anymore in the UK.

The only people who appear to be particularly exercised about these things are those virulently racist Tory Party members who claim to be tearing up their membership cards, and they are more upset that Sunak is brown than by his religion.

Notice how none of them, openly, were practicing Catholics before they were elected ?

And the BC's Catholicism is as authentic as every other part of his public character, & a stain on the English Church that they played a part in the charade

[C69]

So we have a Hindu PM.
What would have happened if he was a Catholic?

Probably nothing, after all Bojo was baptised a Catholic and married Princess Nut Nut in Westminster Cathedral, Blair often attended Catholic masses while he was PM and formally converted to Catholicism on leaving office and it was claimed that Theresa May was an 'Anglo Catholic' by Michael Gove. I don't think anyone really cares anymore in the UK.

The only people who appear to be particularly exercised about these things are those virulently racist Tory Party members who claim to be tearing up their membership cards, and they are more upset that Sunak is brown than by his religion.

Just a question about if you are Catholic before you are PM

[salanya]

I want to see the end of the Tory government as much as the next sensible person, but seeing as we haven't really had any government in the last 6 months (and the governing done actually made things worse) there is a case to be made that we don't have the time for a general election this winter.
Recession is pretty much here now, people are struggling and businesses are at risk.

I fully agree that the Tory government has only made things harder for the public, so morally you could say they have no right to govern (I don't disagree!).
But an election would take what, 6 or 8 weeks? So it'd be the New Year before any issues would be tackled.

Sunak seems less mental than Truss - hopefully he won't go mad on his newfound power and he will not take the UK into full austerity. The risk is that he seems half-decent after the shit-show of recent years, and people will 'forgive' the Tories and they get far more votes than they deserve in the next General Election.

I do feel that there should be a law or rule that any party-leader not in place at the time of a general election, has only up to 12 months to call a general election. Yes, the people vote for a party and not their leader, but we saw with Truss that a new leader can take a totally different path. This could go both ways, positively and negatively, but the point is that this is not what the population voted for, so they should have an earlier point to decide if they want to continue with this, potentially very different, government.

Sorry, not making a particular point, just some musings.

[sturginho]

Tory members on Twitter are complaining about the party imposing a new PM without an election

[Tichtheid]

On the presenter who has been taken off air for being "gleeful" at Johnson not being able to lie his way back into a job he'd been sacked from for not following his government's own rules, and then lying about it...

oh and also on the point of BBC impartiality, iirc Emily Maitliss has said that they could line up numerous economists who said Brexit was going to be a calamity and they could find them in minutes. They would then spend hours trying to get an economist who would put an economic case for Brexit, but they had to put them on because "balance".

It's a bit like them giving lots of airtime to Nigel Lawson on the subject of climate change, as opposed to climatologist who were measuring icecaps and glaciers at the poles.

Anyway, my point here is that there is a difference between the opinion of one or two presenters and actual company policy being driven from behind the curtain.

"The BBC’s chair is Richard Sharp. Much has been made of Sharp’s donations to the Conservative party. But his relationship with the dark-money thinktanks concerns me even more. He was a director of the Centre for Policy Studies (CPS), a dark-money group founded by Margaret Thatcher and Keith Joseph. On the day of Kwarteng’s mini-budget, the CPS claimed responsibility for several of his key announcements. Sharp’s family foundation has also donated to the Institute for Policy Research, which is more transparent about its funding but in turn sends funds to the Centre for Policy Studies and the Taxpayers’ Alliance, another opaque lobby group that has trumpeted its influence. The Taxpayers’ Alliance has long campaigned to scrap the BBC’s licence fee. The BBC grants it, unlike other critics, a massive amount of airtime.

I’m sure there’s more to this story than we yet know. It’s hard to believe how freely the BBC breaks its own rules to promote and normalise an extreme neoliberal cult. Neoliberalism is the intellectual justification for the class war waged by the rich against the poor. The BBC is part of the team."

These are the concluding paragraphs to this article
https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... NF74BNs5DQ

and yes Monbiot will be poo-pooed away by those who don't like uncomfortable facts, but addressing the above would lead to a more constructive debate

[Paddington Bear]

So we have a Hindu PM.
What would have happened if he was a Catholic?

Probably nothing, after all Bojo was baptised a Catholic and married Princess Nut Nut in Westminster Cathedral, Blair often attended Catholic masses while he was PM and formally converted to Catholicism on leaving office and it was claimed that Theresa May was an 'Anglo Catholic' by Michael Gove. I don't think anyone really cares anymore in the UK.

The only people who appear to be particularly exercised about these things are those virulently racist Tory Party members who claim to be tearing up their membership cards, and they are more upset that Sunak is brown than by his religion.

Notice how none of them, openly, were practicing Catholics before they were elected ?

And the BC's Catholicism is as authentic as every other part of his public character, & a stain on the English Church that they played a part in the charade

No one cares about this anymore, a RC could easily become PM.

[Torquemada 1420]

So Moody downgrades the UK to negative which means all 3 major ratings agencies have done so now and has also done the same to the BofE.

Interesting to see Guy Hands come out and openly say that the UK is perma f**ked unless there is a U-turn on Brexit
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-63371743

[Torquemada 1420]

I fully agree that the Tory government has only made things harder for the public, so morally you could say they have no right to govern (I don't disagree!).
But an election would take what, 6 or 8 weeks? So it'd be the New Year before any issues would be tackled.

All true but the problems now are so massive that even if they are surmountable, it's going to take a combo of
- genius political and economic steering
- a helluva long time to turn the ship around (so another 8 weeks makes no difference)
- and along that journey, many passengers will have to be thrown overboard for the greater good

[fishfoodie]

Probably nothing, after all Bojo was baptised a Catholic and married Princess Nut Nut in Westminster Cathedral, Blair often attended Catholic masses while he was PM and formally converted to Catholicism on leaving office and it was claimed that Theresa May was an 'Anglo Catholic' by Michael Gove. I don't think anyone really cares anymore in the UK.

The only people who appear to be particularly exercised about these things are those virulently racist Tory Party members who claim to be tearing up their membership cards, and they are more upset that Sunak is brown than by his religion.

Notice how none of them, openly, were practicing Catholics before they were elected ?

And the BC's Catholicism is as authentic as every other part of his public character, & a stain on the English Church that they played a part in the charade

No one cares about this anymore, a RC could easily become PM.

and yet none has ?, even after nearly a century of emancipation. You had a woman PM, after fifty years, & now you've a Non-White PM.

Oh, & the Unionists & their closest Tory supporters definitely still care; they piss & moan when a Catholic is even appointed to the useless role of NI Secretary.

[SaintK]

.................and that's it from her folks, a legacy worthy of her talents. May she never be seen in high office again

The Prime Minister opened Cabinet by thanking Ministers for their support. She said that in the short time the Government had been in place they had secured some significant achievements.
She said the Government ensured the country was able to mourn the passing of Her Majesty The Queen and to welcome His Majesty King Charles III as the new monarch, a vital moment in the history of our country.
The Prime Minister said the Government acted to immediately protect the public and businesses from unsustainably high energy bills – bringing in the Energy Price Guarantee to save the typical household around £700 this winter.

[salanya]

.................and that's it from her folks, a legacy worthy of her talents. May she never be seen in high office again

The Prime Minister opened Cabinet by thanking Ministers for their support. She said that in the short time the Government had been in place they had secured some significant achievements.
She said the Government ensured the country was able to mourn the passing of Her Majesty The Queen and to welcome His Majesty King Charles III as the new monarch, a vital moment in the history of our country.
The Prime Minister said the Government acted to immediately protect the public and businesses from unsustainably high energy bills – bringing in the Energy Price Guarantee to save the typical household around £700 this winter.

Whoever got her to quote Seneca was playing a cruel trick.

And imagine having so little positive to say on your exit speech that you have to start thanking your security detail.
Larry must be gutted that he didn't get a shout out.

[Torquemada 1420]

.................and that's it from her folks, a legacy worthy of her talents. May she never be seen in high office again

The Prime Minister opened Cabinet by thanking Ministers for their support. She said that in the short time the Government had been in place they had secured some significant achievements.
She said the Government ensured the country was able to mourn the passing of Her Majesty The Queen and to welcome His Majesty King Charles III as the new monarch, a vital moment in the history of our country.
The Prime Minister said the Government acted to immediately protect the public and businesses from unsustainably high energy bills – bringing in the Energy Price Guarantee to save the typical household around £700 this winter.

Whoever got her to quote Seneca was playing a cruel trick.

And imagine having so little positive to say on your exit speech that you have to start thanking your security detail.
Larry must be gutted that he didn't get a shout out.

"All cruelty stems from weakness"?

[salanya]

.................and that's it from her folks, a legacy worthy of her talents. May she never be seen in high office again

Whoever got her to quote Seneca was playing a cruel trick.

And imagine having so little positive to say on your exit speech that you have to start thanking your security detail.
Larry must be gutted that he didn't get a shout out.

"All cruelty stems from weakness"?

Well yeah, obviously her weakness is public speaking (one of her weaknesses anyway) - she couldn't get the words out.

If it doesn't involve cheese or pork markets, Liz just doesn't have the enthusiasm to get the words out.

[tabascoboy]

.................and that's it from her folks, a legacy worthy of her talents. May she never be seen in high office again

The Prime Minister opened Cabinet by thanking Ministers for their support. She said that in the short time the Government had been in place they had secured some significant achievements.
She said the Government ensured the country was able to mourn the passing of Her Majesty The Queen and to welcome His Majesty King Charles III as the new monarch, a vital moment in the history of our country.
The Prime Minister said the Government acted to immediately protect the public and businesses from unsustainably high energy bills – bringing in the Energy Price Guarantee to save the typical household around £700 this winter.

Did she say, "Thank you for being so pleased to get an important, high profile position despite being piss-useless that you accepted the most inept vapid idiot as your Prime Minister"?

I guess not

[Torquemada 1420]

Whoever got her to quote Seneca was playing a cruel trick.

And imagine having so little positive to say on your exit speech that you have to start thanking your security detail.
Larry must be gutted that he didn't get a shout out.

"All cruelty stems from weakness"?

Well yeah, obviously her weakness is public speaking (one of her weaknesses anyway) - she couldn't get the words out.

If it doesn't involve cheese or pork markets, Liz just doesn't have the enthusiasm to get the words out.

Wasn't sure whether you were referring to the real Seneca or Sneeca (PR variant)?

[SaintK]

Her "farewell" speech being hammered by most political commentators!

[tabascoboy]

[Paddington Bear]

Notice how none of them, openly, were practicing Catholics before they were elected ?

And the BC's Catholicism is as authentic as every other part of his public character, & a stain on the English Church that they played a part in the charade

No one cares about this anymore, a RC could easily become PM.

and yet none has ?, even after nearly a century of emancipation. You had a woman PM, after fifty years, & now you've a Non-White PM.

Oh, & the Unionists & their closest Tory supporters definitely still care; they piss & moan when a Catholic is even appointed to the useless role of NI Secretary.

It would have been a major barrier probably 60 years ago and probably still a factor 30/40 but now no one cares. Also we are just not a religious society.

[Slick]

No one cares about this anymore, a RC could easily become PM.

and yet none has ?, even after nearly a century of emancipation. You had a woman PM, after fifty years, & now you've a Non-White PM.

Oh, & the Unionists & their closest Tory supporters definitely still care; they piss & moan when a Catholic is even appointed to the useless role of NI Secretary.

It would have been a major barrier probably 60 years ago and probably still a factor 30/40 but now no one cares. Also we are just not a religious society.

Have to say, it's never even registered with me that this was a thing

[Biffer]

and yet none has ?, even after nearly a century of emancipation. You had a woman PM, after fifty years, & now you've a Non-White PM.

Oh, & the Unionists & their closest Tory supporters definitely still care; they piss & moan when a Catholic is even appointed to the useless role of NI Secretary.

It would have been a major barrier probably 60 years ago and probably still a factor 30/40 but now no one cares. Also we are just not a religious society.

Have to say, it's never even registered with me that this was a thing

I think people are maybe confusing the PM position with the monarch. I'm not aware on any ban on catholics in political positions.

[Mahoney]

Blair probably did hold out until he'd resigned before publicly being a Roman Catholic, but that's probably as much the "we don't do God" thing as anything else.

The "safe" religious views from a political standpoint are atheism (Clegg), agnosticism, or the mildest of cultural Christmas-Easter-and-Remembrance-Day church going in the denomination in which you were brought up (Cameron, May). Converting to Catholicism suggests you really mean it, which in turn invites endless "did you pray with the US president" and "what do you believe about homosexuality (or contraception if you convert to RC)" questions from a commentariat who find sincere belief in Christianity very weird indeed. Just ask Tim Farron.

[Lobby]

and yet none has ?, even after nearly a century of emancipation. You had a woman PM, after fifty years, & now you've a Non-White PM.

Oh, & the Unionists & their closest Tory supporters definitely still care; they piss & moan when a Catholic is even appointed to the useless role of NI Secretary.

It would have been a major barrier probably 60 years ago and probably still a factor 30/40 but now no one cares. Also we are just not a religious society.

Have to say, it's never even registered with me that this was a thing

It seems to be a bit of an obsession with our Irish posters, as it’s not the first time they have brought this up in relation to UK prime ministers. But it’s really not an issue for most people in the UK.

[Slick]

It would have been a major barrier probably 60 years ago and probably still a factor 30/40 but now no one cares. Also we are just not a religious society.

Have to say, it's never even registered with me that this was a thing

I think people are maybe confusing the PM position with the monarch. I'm not aware on any ban on catholics in political positions.

That's what I was thinking

And agree with Mahoney

[Slick]

It would have been a major barrier probably 60 years ago and probably still a factor 30/40 but now no one cares. Also we are just not a religious society.

Have to say, it's never even registered with me that this was a thing

It seems to be a bit of an obsession with our Irish posters, as it’s not the first time they have brought this up in relation to UK prime ministers. But it’s really not an issue for most people in the UK.

You'd think they have enough to be gleeful and smug about at the moment without this stick

[Mahoney]

No, Lobby's right - it's always the Irish raising it and they are definitely thinking of the PM. Unsurprisingly they're very sensitive to anti-Catholic prejudice, and they're right that there was substantial anti-Catholic prejudice in the UK well within living memory, but they're a bit out of date now.

[sturginho]

That was actually a very good speech, not sure if his reiterating of manifesto pledges were intended as a dig at the outgoing govt, once can only hope that he is being genuine

[tabascoboy]

[Lobby]

That was actually a very good speech, not sure if his reiterating of manifesto pledges were intended as a dig at the outgoing govt, once can only hope that he is being genuine

His references back to the manifesto, and his saying that the election in 2019 was not a personal mandate for Boris, were intended to legitimise his appointment as PM and to confirm that the Tories are not about to call an election now.