The Official Scottish Rugby Thread

[Big D]

Try, 3c and a pen for Russell today. If Hastings is out there is no real reason not to select him based on "form".

[Blackmac]

Ireland and SA playing the game on a different level to us.

[Tichtheid]

Try, 3c and a pen for Russell today. If Hastings is out there is no real reason not to select him based on "form".

It would take Toonie to be the grown up in this situation and get one of our very very few contenders for the world 23 back on the park.

[Tichtheid]

Try, 3c and a pen for Russell today. If Hastings is out there is no real reason not to select him based on "form".

It would take Toonie to be the grown up in this situation and get one of our very very few contenders for the world 23 back on the park.

well well
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/if-adam- ... -townsend/

[Biffer]

That was pish. Like watching Scotland ten years ago when there was no talent involved.

All of this is on Townsend. My light at the end of the tunnel is that this is now an attractive position for a coach - talented players underperforming as a group.

[Tichtheid]

That was pish. Like watching Scotland ten years ago when there was no talent involved.

All of this is on Townsend. My light at the end of the tunnel is that this is now an attractive position for a coach - talented players underperforming as a group.

We need a Graham Henry or Steve Hansen type when each were with Wales, a coach on their way up, they don't have to be Scottish.

[Biffer]

That was pish. Like watching Scotland ten years ago when there was no talent involved.

All of this is on Townsend. My light at the end of the tunnel is that this is now an attractive position for a coach - talented players underperforming as a group.

We need a Graham Henry or Steve Hansen type when each were with Wales, a coach on their way up, they don't have to be Scottish.

We had that, but we let him go because Townsend threatened to throw his toys out of the pram. So we let Toony learn by doing at international level, and by so doing pissed away the best generation of talent we’ve had this century.

[Tichtheid]

That was pish. Like watching Scotland ten years ago when there was no talent involved.

All of this is on Townsend. My light at the end of the tunnel is that this is now an attractive position for a coach - talented players underperforming as a group.

We need a Graham Henry or Steve Hansen type when each were with Wales, a coach on their way up, they don't have to be Scottish.

We had that, but we let him go because Townsend threatened to throw his toys out of the pram. So we let Toony learn by doing at international level, and by so doing pissed away the best generation of talent we’ve had this century.

Vern had a huge budget at Clermont, they had the backing of a billion dollar company in Michelin, they didn't win anything.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach and seems like a lovely, genuine, guy, but we need someone better.

[Big D]

For me, if things don't improve before the end of the NIs then they've got to go except for Tandy.

The lack of discipline, game plan and direction is appalling. Especially given this was meant to be a redemptive arc for the embarrassment of the last world cup. Losing to Japan wasn't embarrassing but being woefully underrepresented and lack of fitness was.

[Big D]

We need a Graham Henry or Steve Hansen type when each were with Wales, a coach on their way up, they don't have to be Scottish.

We had that, but we let him go because Townsend threatened to throw his toys out of the pram. So we let Toony learn by doing at international level, and by so doing pissed away the best generation of talent we’ve had this century.

Vern had a huge budget at Clermont, they had the backing of a billion dollar company in Michelin, they didn't win anything.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach and seems like a lovely, genuine, guy, but we need someone better.

I don't think there's any doubt he and O'Halloran had Scotland and an upward curve when he got punted. He left Scotland I the best position any coach has in the professional era.

[Biffer]

We had that, but we let him go because Townsend threatened to throw his toys out of the pram. So we let Toony learn by doing at international level, and by so doing pissed away the best generation of talent we’ve had this century.

Vern had a huge budget at Clermont, they had the backing of a billion dollar company in Michelin, they didn't win anything.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach and seems like a lovely, genuine, guy, but we need someone better.

I don't think there's any doubt he and O'Halloran had Scotland and an upward curve when he got punted. He left Scotland I the best position any coach has in the professional era.

Another three or four years and he would have changed the attitude in Scottish rugby.

[Tichtheid]

We had that, but we let him go because Townsend threatened to throw his toys out of the pram. So we let Toony learn by doing at international level, and by so doing pissed away the best generation of talent we’ve had this century.

Vern had a huge budget at Clermont, they had the backing of a billion dollar company in Michelin, they didn't win anything.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach and seems like a lovely, genuine, guy, but we need someone better.

I don't think there's any doubt he and O'Halloran had Scotland and an upward curve when he got punted. He left Scotland I the best position any coach has in the professional era.

Agreed, I'm just not sure he was The One, I'm not sure either way

[Biffer]

We need a Graham Henry or Steve Hansen type when each were with Wales, a coach on their way up, they don't have to be Scottish.

We had that, but we let him go because Townsend threatened to throw his toys out of the pram. So we let Toony learn by doing at international level, and by so doing pissed away the best generation of talent we’ve had this century.

Vern had a huge budget at Clermont, they had the backing of a billion dollar company in Michelin, they didn't win anything.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach and seems like a lovely, genuine, guy, but we need someone better.

Won the Top 14 in 2010.

[Tichtheid]

We had that, but we let him go because Townsend threatened to throw his toys out of the pram. So we let Toony learn by doing at international level, and by so doing pissed away the best generation of talent we’ve had this century.

Vern had a huge budget at Clermont, they had the backing of a billion dollar company in Michelin, they didn't win anything.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach and seems like a lovely, genuine, guy, but we need someone better.

Won the Top 14 in 2010.

I stand corrected then, but Toonie won the league too

[Biffer]

Vern had a huge budget at Clermont, they had the backing of a billion dollar company in Michelin, they didn't win anything.

Don't get me wrong, he's a good coach and seems like a lovely, genuine, guy, but we need someone better.

Won the Top 14 in 2010.

I stand corrected then, but Toonie won the league too

He didn’t get his team to a Heineken Cup final and two other league finals though. Clermont also won the challenge cup.

And Citter didn’t stamp his little feet and demand to be made national coach before he was ready so he could piss away the best talent we’ve had in twenty years while he learnt on the job, like Townsend did.

[Tichtheid]

Won the Top 14 in 2010.

I stand corrected then, but Toonie won the league too

He didn’t get his team to a Heineken Cup final and two other league finals though. Clermont also won the challenge cup.

And Citter didn’t stamp his little feet and demand to be made national coach before he was ready so he could piss away the best talent we’ve had in twenty years while he learnt on the job, like Townsend did.

The budget difference is huge, so is the job remit. Toonie got Glasgow to two finals, winning one and his team made it to another two years after he left.
He took a good bedrock that Lineen had put in place and left Glasgow in a much stronger position than when he went there.

He wasn't solely looking after the club's interest, half his job was to develop players for Scotland, which he did very well.

I don't want to be in a position where I'm putting one coach down, that is not my meaning here, I think Townsend has made the wrong call with Russell and I hope we see him starting next week

[charltom]

They were sandbagging...




... weren't they...?

[Slick]

I stand corrected then, but Toonie won the league too

He didn’t get his team to a Heineken Cup final and two other league finals though. Clermont also won the challenge cup.

And Citter didn’t stamp his little feet and demand to be made national coach before he was ready so he could piss away the best talent we’ve had in twenty years while he learnt on the job, like Townsend did.

The budget difference is huge, so is the job remit. Toonie got Glasgow to two finals, winning one and his team made it to another two years after he left.
He took a good bedrock that Lineen had put in place and left Glasgow in a much stronger position than when he went there.

He wasn't solely looking after the club's interest, half his job was to develop players for Scotland, which he did very well.

I don't want to be in a position where I'm putting one coach down, that is not my meaning here, I think Townsend has made the wrong call with Russell and I hope we see him starting next week

Yes, let’s not rewrite history here, Toony did a very good job at Glasgow and is still a successful Scotland coach in the grand scheme - albeit it’s undeniable we should be doing better with the players we currently have.

I’d have liked Vern to have stayed on and GT to have got more experience like everyone else, but there are a few pairs of rose tinted specs around, he had an 53% win record and his team shipped 60+ points to England.

[Slick]

Try, 3c and a pen for Russell today. If Hastings is out there is no real reason not to select him based on "form".

Toony has certainly got himself in a pickle if Hastings is out. If he doesn’t call up Fin then he has to admit the form bit was bullshit and that he lied to us about the reasons.

Starting Kinghorn against NZ with no frontline kicker would be an admission that the ego has won and makes his position as national coach untenable. I think it would be incredibly unfair on BK as well and I just couldn’t back a coach that puts a young player in that position. I can swallow BK starting with Hastings on the bench if fit, but if Fin is in the squad he has to start and he can’t get away with calling up another 10 and putting all that pressure on BK.

[Yr Alban]

Try, 3c and a pen for Russell today. If Hastings is out there is no real reason not to select him based on "form".

It would take Toonie to be the grown up in this situation and get one of our very very few contenders for the world 23 back on the park.

well well
https://www.rugbypass.com/news/if-adam- ... -townsend/

In a way, Hastings being injured would be a godsend for Toony at this point. It would allow him to bring Finn back into the squad whilst allowing him to save face. It would still mean having to wind his ego back in, though.

The trouble, of course, is that having Finn back won’t improve our discipline, or do anything to improve the general sense of malaise around the team. It would just mean that we might lose by a smaller margin.

[Big D]

He didn’t get his team to a Heineken Cup final and two other league finals though. Clermont also won the challenge cup.

And Citter didn’t stamp his little feet and demand to be made national coach before he was ready so he could piss away the best talent we’ve had in twenty years while he learnt on the job, like Townsend did.

The budget difference is huge, so is the job remit. Toonie got Glasgow to two finals, winning one and his team made it to another two years after he left.
He took a good bedrock that Lineen had put in place and left Glasgow in a much stronger position than when he went there.

He wasn't solely looking after the club's interest, half his job was to develop players for Scotland, which he did very well.

I don't want to be in a position where I'm putting one coach down, that is not my meaning here, I think Townsend has made the wrong call with Russell and I hope we see him starting next week

Yes, let’s not rewrite history here, Toony did a very good job at Glasgow and is still a successful Scotland coach in the grand scheme - albeit it’s undeniable we should be doing better with the players we currently have.

I’d have liked Vern to have stayed on and GT to have got more experience like everyone else, but there are a few pairs of rose tinted specs around, he had an 53% win record and his team shipped 60+ points to England.

I'm not sure it's tose tinted specs to be fair. Most (on here) are only saying things were going well under cotter at the time he was jettisoned and thr decision www questionable, which it was. The difference in preparedness for the world cups were night and day.

Townsend has a good win rate, but something is rotten and I have no faith he can come up with any ideas to fix it.

[Big D]

“We won the penalty count today and we won it last week,” he said. “You take games into context. 14 was a lot last week, but the opposition conceded 15. Today the opposition gave away 17. Sometimes games become high penalty counts. We have to set our own standards.

Clutching at straws. Goes on to say it was better in the second half etc. But the last fact the opp conceded 15 in a game isn't a good barometer for us conceding 14.

[Simian]

He didn’t get his team to a Heineken Cup final and two other league finals though. Clermont also won the challenge cup.

And Citter didn’t stamp his little feet and demand to be made national coach before he was ready so he could piss away the best talent we’ve had in twenty years while he learnt on the job, like Townsend did.

The budget difference is huge, so is the job remit. Toonie got Glasgow to two finals, winning one and his team made it to another two years after he left.
He took a good bedrock that Lineen had put in place and left Glasgow in a much stronger position than when he went there.

He wasn't solely looking after the club's interest, half his job was to develop players for Scotland, which he did very well.

I don't want to be in a position where I'm putting one coach down, that is not my meaning here, I think Townsend has made the wrong call with Russell and I hope we see him starting next week

Yes, let’s not rewrite history here, Toony did a very good job at Glasgow and is still a successful Scotland coach in the grand scheme - albeit it’s undeniable we should be doing better with the players we currently have.

I’d have liked Vern to have stayed on and GT to have got more experience like everyone else, but there are a few pairs of rose tinted specs around, he had an 53% win record and his team shipped 60+ points to England.

What's GT's win % with Scotland? I don't know, but doubt it's very much better than VC's? And surely it makes sense to take where we were when each took the role on into account too, right? And, ofc, VC taking us so close to a RWC SF compares very favourably with GT's RWC record as coach. Total win % is only one measure of success and I'm not really convinced GT's standing as 'most successful Scotland coach' is otherwise that warranted.

[Tichtheid]

From the offside line before the Calcutta Cup this year,

Townsend has won 28 and drawn one of his 49 Tests in charge, giving him a win percentage of 57.14% (or 58.16% if you’re feeling generous and give him half a point for that bonkers 38-38 draw at Twickenham in 2019). That is a better winning record than any of the 12 previous incumbents since the role was created for Bill Dickinson in 1971. Ian McGeechan’s record was ever so slightly higher (57.58%) in his first spell in charge, a period which included the 1990 Grand Slam. But when you take into account his second, less successful, tenure from 2000 to 2003, his overall win rate drops to 50%. Jim Telfer, across three spells at the helm, achieved a shade under 45%. In the professional era only Townsend’s predecessor, Vern Cotter, comes close with 52.78%. If the decision to dispense with the New Zealander’s services appeared harsh to some observers at the time, it is hard not to argue, statistically at least, that Townsend has built impressively on those foundations.

[I like neeps]

The budget difference is huge, so is the job remit. Toonie got Glasgow to two finals, winning one and his team made it to another two years after he left.
He took a good bedrock that Lineen had put in place and left Glasgow in a much stronger position than when he went there.

He wasn't solely looking after the club's interest, half his job was to develop players for Scotland, which he did very well.

I don't want to be in a position where I'm putting one coach down, that is not my meaning here, I think Townsend has made the wrong call with Russell and I hope we see him starting next week

Yes, let’s not rewrite history here, Toony did a very good job at Glasgow and is still a successful Scotland coach in the grand scheme - albeit it’s undeniable we should be doing better with the players we currently have.

I’d have liked Vern to have stayed on and GT to have got more experience like everyone else, but there are a few pairs of rose tinted specs around, he had an 53% win record and his team shipped 60+ points to England.

What's GT's win % with Scotland? I don't know, but doubt it's very much better than VC's? And surely it makes sense to take where we were when each took the role on into account too, right? And, ofc, VC taking us so close to a RWC SF compares very favourably with GT's RWC record as coach. Total win % is only one measure of success and I'm not really convinced GT's standing as 'most successful Scotland coach' is otherwise that warranted.

Cotter went above Townsend after the Australia loss, I presume Townsend is back above him now that. But seems that with a worse time Cotter will have a higher winning percentage than Townsend by the time Gregor is out (after world cup).

Townsend has beaten England three times though so there is that.

[charltom]

I'm sure I remember an article last week saying Cotter was 52.8% and Townsend 53.4%, which will now be about 54% following the Fiji match.

I think Townsend's ought to be better though. It's scary how he's managed a 0% record against Ireland, for instance.

[Big D]

Win %ages are a dangerous comparison when used in isolation. Especially given their starting points. Both coaches had/have pros and cons, different world cup records, one never beating England (I think) the other never beating Ireland or a Gatland lead Welsh team (I think), one being embarrassed at Twickenham, the other losing v USA and Fiji.

But all that is irrelevant. We aren't building a time machine. Where we are right now is a coaching staff who look lost (bar Tandy and maybe De Villiers). We head hunted ABZ and it seems to have had a negative impact on skills. Dalziel hasn't brought anything to the table really and Townsend is lacking the answers that suggests he can turn it around.

[Simian]

From the offside line before the Calcutta Cup this year,

Townsend has won 28 and drawn one of his 49 Tests in charge, giving him a win percentage of 57.14% (or 58.16% if you’re feeling generous and give him half a point for that bonkers 38-38 draw at Twickenham in 2019). That is a better winning record than any of the 12 previous incumbents since the role was created for Bill Dickinson in 1971. Ian McGeechan’s record was ever so slightly higher (57.58%) in his first spell in charge, a period which included the 1990 Grand Slam. But when you take into account his second, less successful, tenure from 2000 to 2003, his overall win rate drops to 50%. Jim Telfer, across three spells at the helm, achieved a shade under 45%. In the professional era only Townsend’s predecessor, Vern Cotter, comes close with 52.78%. If the decision to dispense with the New Zealander’s services appeared harsh to some observers at the time, it is hard not to argue, statistically at least, that Townsend has built impressively on those foundations.

That’s from a wee while ago now tho. From the stats others are citing it seems VC’a and GT’s stats are pretty similar now. Given VC took over sides with ~30% (Johnson, interim appt; ~40% for Robinson before that), while GT took over a side who’d won more than they’d lost, GT’s record seems kinda underwhelming in comparison.

[I like neeps]

Win %ages are a dangerous comparison when used in isolation. Especially given their starting points. Both coaches had/have pros and cons, different world cup records, one never beating England (I think) the other never beating Ireland or a Gatland lead Welsh team (I think), one being embarrassed at Twickenham, the other losing v USA and Fiji.

But all that is irrelevant. We aren't building a time machine. Where we are right now is a coaching staff who look lost (bar Tandy and maybe De Villiers). We head hunted ABZ and it seems to have had a negative impact on skills. Dalziel hasn't brought anything to the table really and Townsend is lacking the answers that suggests he can turn it around.

I think the year after the world cup and through COVID the pack was actually guite good. Dalziel did show improvement from Wilson's time so don't think this fair. It's fallen off this year but so has every facet of play.

[Tichtheid]

I just hope they don’t repeat the mistake and appoint Mike Blair way too soon

[Simian]

Win %ages are a dangerous comparison when used in isolation. Especially given their starting points. Both coaches had/have pros and cons, different world cup records, one never beating England (I think) the other never beating Ireland or a Gatland lead Welsh team (I think), one being embarrassed at Twickenham, the other losing v USA and Fiji.

But all that is irrelevant. We aren't building a time machine. Where we are right now is a coaching staff who look lost (bar Tandy and maybe De Villiers). We head hunted ABZ and it seems to have had a negative impact on skills. Dalziel hasn't brought anything to the table really and Townsend is lacking the answers that suggests he can turn it around.

I completely take your point. My point was that you want to see improvement and we aren’t. FWIW, it’s the respective RWC records, the sense that the stats seem to suggest that GT is underperforming with the resources he has, and the failure of key appointments he made that I find pretty damning.

On the time machine point, I don’t think it is actually irrelevant, tbh. Like Tichtheid, I’d like to see the SRU learn a lesson here and not repeat a previous ‘mistake’

[Simian]

I just hope they don’t repeat the mistake and appoint Mike Blair way too soon

Sadly, I think that’s very possible. An experienced international coach is probably too much to ask for, but I’d at least like to see one from outside the SRU system.

[mos_eisely_]

I just hope they don’t repeat the mistake and appoint Mike Blair way too soon

Sadly, I think that’s very possible. An experienced international coach is probably too much to ask for, but I’d at least like to see one from outside the SRU system.

I hope that Blair is smart enough to see what is happening and say no thanks, I need more head coaching experience and to win something before going for that top job

[Slick]

The budget difference is huge, so is the job remit. Toonie got Glasgow to two finals, winning one and his team made it to another two years after he left.
He took a good bedrock that Lineen had put in place and left Glasgow in a much stronger position than when he went there.

He wasn't solely looking after the club's interest, half his job was to develop players for Scotland, which he did very well.

I don't want to be in a position where I'm putting one coach down, that is not my meaning here, I think Townsend has made the wrong call with Russell and I hope we see him starting next week

Yes, let’s not rewrite history here, Toony did a very good job at Glasgow and is still a successful Scotland coach in the grand scheme - albeit it’s undeniable we should be doing better with the players we currently have.

I’d have liked Vern to have stayed on and GT to have got more experience like everyone else, but there are a few pairs of rose tinted specs around, he had an 53% win record and his team shipped 60+ points to England.

I'm not sure it's tose tinted specs to be fair. Most (on here) are only saying things were going well under cotter at the time he was jettisoned and thr decision www questionable, which it was. The difference in preparedness for the world cups were night and day.

Townsend has a good win rate, but something is rotten and I have no faith he can come up with any ideas to fix it.

Oh yeah, completely agree with all that. You just see some comments on social media pinning Cotter as the messiah, which doesn’t really stack up

[I like neeps]

I just hope they don’t repeat the mistake and appoint Mike Blair way too soon

I hope he has the humility not to demand the national team job or go off in a huff.

[dpedin]

Aussies pushed the French very close - puts our performance with a home based team last week into context. If Kinghorn had kicked the penalty then I wonder if the mood music might be a bit different? The Aussies are no mugs and did well against the French who struggled at times and let the Aussies play some rugby. As folk have said on here previously we should have won reasonably comfortably last week but didnt manage the game well in the last 15 mins and penalties etc let us down. It will be interesting to see how Fiji do now they have a game under their belt and have more time together although I am not sure they will be anywhere good enough against Irelands very structured game and strong set piece.

[Big D]

I just hope they don’t repeat the mistake and appoint Mike Blair way too soon

I think that's an issue we are going to have. If a club coach takes the reigns, especially after being a Scotland assistant coach, that's several years with the same voice being a coach of some ot the guys which can become stale and reduce opportunities for learning.

The pathway needs to include a stint elsewhere for coach and player sake.

[Jockaline]

From the offside line before the Calcutta Cup this year,

Townsend has won 28 and drawn one of his 49 Tests in charge, giving him a win percentage of 57.14% (or 58.16% if you’re feeling generous and give him half a point for that bonkers 38-38 draw at Twickenham in 2019). That is a better winning record than any of the 12 previous incumbents since the role was created for Bill Dickinson in 1971. Ian McGeechan’s record was ever so slightly higher (57.58%) in his first spell in charge, a period which included the 1990 Grand Slam. But when you take into account his second, less successful, tenure from 2000 to 2003, his overall win rate drops to 50%. Jim Telfer, across three spells at the helm, achieved a shade under 45%. In the professional era only Townsend’s predecessor, Vern Cotter, comes close with 52.78%. If the decision to dispense with the New Zealander’s services appeared harsh to some observers at the time, it is hard not to argue, statistically at least, that Townsend has built impressively on those foundations.

The platform that each got was completely different. Cotter got dysfunctional Scotland and year on year improved it. Townsend took on a team that was going somewhere with lots of emerging talent, which on a backwards trend. Cotter took the team on a journey that had direction and a fairly table squad. Townsend's playing style changes with the wind as does his personnel.

The manner that Townsend go the job rankles with me, he has a huge ego, and doesn't appear to have the ability deal with other egos, or have players shining too brightly. Doesn't even seem willing converse other than when absolutely necessary, nor listen to concerns let alone criticism.

[I like neeps]

Aussies pushed the French very close - puts our performance with a home based team last week into context. If Kinghorn had kicked the penalty then I wonder if the mood music might be a bit different? The Aussies are no mugs and did well against the French who struggled at times and let the Aussies play some rugby. As folk have said on here previously we should have won reasonably comfortably last week but didnt manage the game well in the last 15 mins and penalties etc let us down. It will be interesting to see how Fiji do now they have a game under their belt and have more time together although I am not sure they will be anywhere good enough against Irelands very structured game and strong set piece.

What's the new context? It's now okay to play badly and lose a because Australia played much better and really well and lost the week after?

Australia are no mugs, they had a good 4 nations. It doesn't mean a year of illdisciplined and more often than not poor performances is suddenly okay because they came close against France.

Argentina beat NZ - it doesn't change how we played against them in the tour. Let's worry about ourselves before we start twisting other results so that if we squint enough we're actually better than results and performances suggest.

[Slick]

Aussies pushed the French very close - puts our performance with a home based team last week into context. If Kinghorn had kicked the penalty then I wonder if the mood music might be a bit different? The Aussies are no mugs and did well against the French who struggled at times and let the Aussies play some rugby. As folk have said on here previously we should have won reasonably comfortably last week but didnt manage the game well in the last 15 mins and penalties etc let us down. It will be interesting to see how Fiji do now they have a game under their belt and have more time together although I am not sure they will be anywhere good enough against Irelands very structured game and strong set piece.

I’m not sure the mood would be much different to be honest. By the time we had the kick to win I honestly couldn’t really care less, I was so pissed off with the same old indisciplined performance and the team going backwards that I just shrugged my shoulders.

It will of course be very Scotland if we produce a brilliant display next week, but the rot is too strong now for me to believe we can produce decent performances with any consistency