The Official English Rugby Thread

[Margin__Walker]

In other news, a report in the Times suggesting that OHC to Leicester is happening at the end of the season. A visit to the Training ground was also mentioned in he Rugby Paper yesterday

LI apparently targeting Cokanasiga to replace him.

[fishfoodie]

In other news, a report in the Times suggesting that OHC to Leicester is happening at the end of the season. A visit to the Training ground was also mentioned in he Rugby Paper yesterday

LI apparently targeting Cokanasiga to replace him.

Trading in the Ferrari for a Volvo

[Lobby]

In other news, a report in the Times suggesting that OHC to Leicester is happening at the end of the season. A visit to the Training ground was also mentioned in he Rugby Paper yesterday

LI apparently targeting Cokanasiga to replace him.

Trading in the Ferrari for a Volvo

More like a Trabant to be honest

[SaintK]

So a year out from the next RWC Jones hires yet another defence coach. How many assistant coaches has he gone through since he started? Must be in the 20's by now.
Never heard of this guy, must have been appointed because he's cheap!!!

A statement read: “England have appointed Brett Hodgson as defence coach to start after the Autumn Nation Series. Anthony Seibold will leave at the end of the series to join NRL side Manly Warringah Sea Eagles where he has been appointed head coach.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-st ... firmed/

[inactionman]

So a year out from the next RWC Jones hires yet another defence coach. How many assistant coaches has he gone through since he started? Must be in the 20's by now.
Never heard of this guy, must have been appointed because he's cheap!!!

A statement read: “England have appointed Brett Hodgson as defence coach to start after the Autumn Nation Series. Anthony Seibold will leave at the end of the series to join NRL side Manly Warringah Sea Eagles where he has been appointed head coach.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-st ... firmed/

He was a decent enough league player in his time, and some coaching experience in RL although he didn't last long in his head coach role.

Think he did some constancy (edit: consultancy) at Sale so some idea of union.

But still not quite sure what qualifies him for an England Union role. Maybe every team is now looking for its RL defence coach, a la Kevin Sinfield?

[tc27]

The more I watch this the more angry I am - Farrel and Nowell make absolutely no effort to recover the ball here - infact Nowell basically gives up.

I played level 5-6 and would have been absolutely bollocked for not playing to the whistle.

Add in Mako lumbering around the field - some of these players do not deserve to be there.

[dpedin]

The more I watch this the more angry I am - Farrel and Nowell make absolutely no effort to recover the ball here - infact Nowell basically gives up.

I played level 5-6 and would have been absolutely bollocked for not playing to the whistle.

Add in Mako lumbering around the field - some of these players do not deserve to be there.

They know they lack the pace to catch him and don't even bother to try! To be fair to Steward he also knows he lacks the pace but tried his heart out to catch the 10. It was a bit like watching in slow motion ....

England really do need to inject some pace into their back 3 - no point having three big guys there but none of them have any real pace. Steward is a good player and other attributes to keep him at 15 but at the top level neither Cokasinga not Nowells have the pace, both will come inside and look for contact knowing they can rarely beat their opponents number for pace. In fact there was no pace at all in the England starting back line on Saturday. Wee fat Eddie was obviously trying to bludgeon and kick the Argies into defeat and it never really worked and there was no plan B when required.

[sockwithaticket]

So a year out from the next RWC Jones hires yet another defence coach. How many assistant coaches has he gone through since he started? Must be in the 20's by now.
Never heard of this guy, must have been appointed because he's cheap!!!

A statement read: “England have appointed Brett Hodgson as defence coach to start after the Autumn Nation Series. Anthony Seibold will leave at the end of the series to join NRL side Manly Warringah Sea Eagles where he has been appointed head coach.

https://www.rugbypass.com/news/rfu-st ... firmed/

He was a decent enough league player in his time, and some coaching experience in RL although he didn't last long in his head coach role.

Think he did some constancy at Sale so some idea of union.

But still not quite sure what qualifies him for an England Union role. Maybe every team is now looking for its RL defence coach, a la Kevin Sinfield?

He's willing and available. Can't imagine there's much choice in the market right now and if you're a defence coach in an existing role are you going to give it up to join a mediocre England side for at most 12 months before a new boss comes in and likely sweeps out all the existing assistant coaches?

[Paddington Bear]

Gatland's take on England

Looking from the outside, and I'm not in the inner circle of what they are working towards or doing in training, I think Eddie Jones has two choices with this England side ahead of facing Japan. Does he stick with the same and say we have lost by a point, we need to improve this week and give the players an opportunity to go again.

That second, alternative option is that you potentially give Owen Farrell an opportunity back at No 10, move Manu to inside centre and bring Henry Slade into 13.

If the plan was to make a half dozen changes for Japan, then I would stick to the plan and do that by giving Farrell a start at 10, before then picking my best side for New Zealand and South Africa. If you go with the same selection as Argentina, then that team pretty much needs to play the whole autumn together to build for the two big games.

Owen is obviously a world-class player. I feel that Marcus Smith is a long-term prospect, he is going to be a superstar in the game. I would like to see him be more a running threat with England, because with that footwork when he does play flatter to the line, he does hold the defence in place. You need him as a running fly-half early on in the game to keep the defence guessing, having them in two minds about what he is going to do.

With Owen at No 10, you look at that as a possibility if you want to play a different game. The hard thing for England is you are trying to find a place for Marcus and he is a raw talent, unbelievably skilful. You want to keep giving him the opportunities to bring him on as a player and bring out the best of him. Certain games you go back to Owen at No 10 and you have that solidity, experience, and he has done it brilliantly for Saracens controlling the game for a number of years and had great success at fly-half.

Marcus Smith is the future, but Owen Farrell could be the No 10 solution
Owen Farrell might be England's best option at 10 CREDIT: Dan Mullan/Getty Images
On Sunday, England definitely went in with the approach to dominate upfront and there's no doubt that was part of the game plan. For me the disappointing thing was out wide, they lacked any fluidity in the backline. I felt Smith was playing too deep. He plays so much flatter for Harlequins and is much more of a threat on the frontline. Whether he's been asked to play a bit deeper for England I am not too sure, but he threatens more when he attacks the line.

In Test rugby there is definitely less space and we have seen with someone like the New Zealand fly-half Richie Mo'unga, who in Super Rugby is making breaks and causing defences lots of issues, but in international rugby there's less space. Marcus is going through that at the moment and definitely learning.

I would also be looking for more pace on one of the wings, a finishing winger. I love Jack Nowell as a player, he gets lots of touches and goes looking for the ball, a great servant for England. I just felt they lacked a bit of speed. Moving Manu to 12, they can use his size to get front-foot ball. Slade is a little silkier with the hands.

Upfront, I'm not sure that Maro had the impact at six in terms of ball-carrying so it's whether you put him back into the second, even though I felt Alex Coles had a great debut. Yes, he made a couple of mistakes, but he had some good carries. The front row carried well too, and then you have options in the back row too whether you stick with Billy, or have a back row featuring Tom Curry, Jack Willis and Sam Simmonds. That could give you some real mobility, some carrying power and footwork.

'I am not 100 per cent sure what the messages are that England are trying to convey'
Looking from the outside, they went with a six-two split, wanted to pick the biggest, most physical team they could potentially have, and I think the idea was with Nowell and Joe Cokanasiga on the wings and with Tuilagi back in midfield that they wanted to beat Argentina up physically. Unfortunately they weren't able to impose themselves in that way.

Eddie has lots of options, it just comes down to the mindset. I've been in that position before as a coach where you are disappointed and you give those players an opportunity to go out again and hope those combinations are a bit better the following week. Or do you take the opportunity to look at new combinations.

He has also spoken about holding some tactics back for the Rugby World Cup, but if that is the case he is a much better coach than I am! You want to be working on things and combinations. Sunday was the sort of game where I would have been getting a message out on the field to not get caught up in the pushing and shoving that is going on, the Argentinians love that and it slows the game down. I would have been sending a message out to get back in position and lift the tempo, to not let Argentina settle.

What I have always found really positive from a coaching perspective, especially in Wales, was trying to give everyone the narrative, particularly the press. I would say what we were trying to do, these are our plans over this campaign and over the next 18 months. When you go back and get asked by the press, you can respond by saying we told you we were going to do this or rest these players against these teams, to try certain things. So that from a coaching perspective, you control the narrative and the message you are putting out there. At the moment, I am not 100 per cent sure what the messages are that England are trying to convey.

[Raggs]

Nowell could have absolutely reached Carreras in that play, or pushed him towards Steward, if he'd started running as soon as it went loose, rather than looking at Farrell flap. Farrell could have been working to prevent a pass/offload.

[sockwithaticket]

Every coach who's tried Farrell at 10 (including Gatland) has moved him out of there. Lancaster and Jones have revisited playing him at 10 after a while and still gone back to picking him at 12. Even with some improvements to his play over the last couple of seasons I don't see Farrell at 10 being the solution to us being underwhelming and inconsistent with the ball.

Equally, we may as well drop Smith if all we're going to do is sandwich him between Youngs and Farrell while asking him to suppress his natural game and play really deep.

[sockwithaticket]

The more I watch this the more angry I am - Farrel and Nowell make absolutely no effort to recover the ball here - infact Nowell basically gives up.

I played level 5-6 and would have been absolutely bollocked for not playing to the whistle.

Add in Mako lumbering around the field - some of these players do not deserve to be there.

They know they lack the pace to catch him and don't even bother to try! To be fair to Steward he also knows he lacks the pace but tried his heart out to catch the 10. It was a bit like watching in slow motion ....

England really do need to inject some pace into their back 3 - no point having three big guys there but none of them have any real pace. Steward is a good player and other attributes to keep him at 15 but at the top level neither Cokasinga not Nowells have the pace, both will come inside and look for contact knowing they can rarely beat their opponents number for pace. In fact there was no pace at all in the England starting back line on Saturday. Wee fat Eddie was obviously trying to bludgeon and kick the Argies into defeat and it never really worked and there was no plan B when required.

That's the attitude we want from the captain and vice captain

If nothing else they should've been sprinting back to try and get Steward a better angle on Carreras and close down the space for the latter to escape into, but also to get in the way of/be in a position to tackle any support runners should Carreras actually be run down or stumble and feel the need to offload.

[SaintK]

What a complete load of bollocks!!!

England's defeat by Argentina was partly caused by preparation being too focussed on next year's Rugby World Cup, coach Eddie Jones has admitted.
"We have been looking at a number of long-term strategies that we are trying to employ to get set for the World Cup, and maybe our focus wasn't tight enough on Argentina," said Jones.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63554585

[Hal Jordan]

Or even just force Carreras wider to make the conversion harder.

Nowell is just about club level these days, he was never a prolific scorer but he was a great worker and contributed. Now he's doing nothing. As I said on the match thread, the first time he contributed was clotheslining an Argentinian well into the match.

"Nowell - 6/10 Another hardworking shift for the Exeter man."

[inactionman]

Or even just force Carreras wider to make the conversion harder.

Nowell is just about club level these days, he was never a prolific scorer but he was a great worker and contributed. Now he's doing nothing. As I said on the match thread, the first time he contributed was clotheslining an Argentinian well into the match.

"Nowell - 6/10 Another hardworking shift for the Exeter man."

He is an excellent all-round footballer, very strong for his size but always short a yard of pace for international wing. It's starting to show more obviously now, especially with the injuries he's suffered.

I remember when he tore Bath a new one from 13 at the Rec, back when Bath were good, great skill, strength and workrate. That unfortunately seems a long time ago now, both for Bath and the player.

[Kawazaki]

The more I watch this the more angry I am - Farrel and Nowell make absolutely no effort to recover the ball here - infact Nowell basically gives up.

I played level 5-6 and would have been absolutely bollocked for not playing to the whistle.

Add in Mako lumbering around the field - some of these players do not deserve to be there.

That's criminal from Nowell, what the hell was he doing?

[Kawazaki]

Every coach who's tried Farrell at 10 (including Gatland) has moved him out of there. Lancaster and Jones have revisited playing him at 10 after a while and still gone back to picking him at 12. Even with some improvements to his play over the last couple of seasons I don't see Farrell at 10 being the solution to us being underwhelming and inconsistent with the ball.

Equally, we may as well drop Smith if all we're going to do is sandwich him between Youngs and Farrell while asking him to suppress his natural game and play really deep.

Did the thought occur to you that he's moved to 12 because they feel there is a shortage of 12s rather than him not being a good enough 10?

[ASMO]

The more I watch this the more angry I am - Farrel and Nowell make absolutely no effort to recover the ball here - infact Nowell basically gives up.

I played level 5-6 and would have been absolutely bollocked for not playing to the whistle.

Add in Mako lumbering around the field - some of these players do not deserve to be there.

That's criminal from Nowell, what the hell was he doing?

he was also miles out of position for the Boffelli try too, what the fuck was he supposed to be doing, Big Joe got closer to the winger from the opposite wing!!

clip 1.10 onwards

[SaintK]

So looks like Jack Willis may be off to Toulouse fpor the rest of the season . Bath, Tigers and Saints all interested but can't sign him due to salary cap restrictions Thought Saints may have reed up enopugh with Biggar leaving for FRance.

England star Jack Willis looks set to spend the rest of the season playing in the French Top 14 despite three of the biggest clubs in the Premiership keen to sign the flanker.
The potential move until the end of the season would not hinder Willis' availability for the national side ahead of the 2023 Rugby World Cup as the RFU have made an exemption to their overseas player regulations for out-of-work Wasps and Worcester Warriors players.

[tc27]

Or even just force Carreras wider to make the conversion harder.

Nowell is just about club level these days, he was never a prolific scorer but he was a great worker and contributed. Now he's doing nothing. As I said on the match thread, the first time he contributed was clotheslining an Argentinian well into the match.

"Nowell - 6/10 Another hardworking shift for the Exeter man."

Carreras had support options he did not need at the end - even if Nowell and Farrell could not have caught him they should have being tracking back to close down the space and defend the ruck if the tackle had being made.

Cannot understand the sentimentality around wingers - when they loose that pace they should be replaced ruthlessly,

[dpedin]

The more I watch this the more angry I am - Farrel and Nowell make absolutely no effort to recover the ball here - infact Nowell basically gives up.

I played level 5-6 and would have been absolutely bollocked for not playing to the whistle.

Add in Mako lumbering around the field - some of these players do not deserve to be there.

That's criminal from Nowell, what the hell was he doing?

he was also miles out of position for the Boffelli try too, what the fuck was he supposed to be doing, Big Joe got closer to the winger from the opposite wing!!

clip 1.10 onwards

Nowell gets dragged out of position, instead of staying a bit wider he comes in to make a hit on ball carrier and loses Carreras coming around on the loop then hasn't got pace to recover. He needed to hold his position and trust the man inside him.

[fishfoodie]

Seems like any rugby coach the English papers interview, they ask them if they know WTF EJ is up to.

Lancaster got the same treatment by the Torygraph.

(Remember, to get past their paywall, just hit the ESC key as the page starts to load )

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... n-england/

....

England are currently striving to establish an effective attacking identity. As has become a theme of the past year, their struggles to convert pressure were evident in a 30-29 loss to the Pumas. Lancaster is, obviously, well placed to comment on this progress having experienced the innate obstacles to synergy in England.

“You can see it,” he says. “You can certainly see what they’re trying to achieve, particularly with the Australia tour. The challenge internationally, with England, is the cohesion piece. With Ireland, a lot of players that play for Ireland play for Leinster, so there is a natural evolution into Ireland and a natural understanding of each other’s running lines and the ability to do that at pace.

“The reason, I think, that it’s going well is that we are training at pace with accuracy. When you’re with England, you have players coming from 13 different clubs, you have maybe changes of personnel in terms of coaches, you have different philosophies emerging, you have different combinations emerging. I think it’s just harder to achieve. I certainly found that in my time.

“But over a period of time, with consistency of selection, philosophy, training habits, then it can become unconscious and automatic. I think it doesn’t quite look like that at the moment.”

Lancaster points to Jimmy O’Brien’s debut for Ireland against South Africa, on which the versatile Leinster back seemed composed and able to contribute straightaway, even amid ferocious intensity, as a benefit of the provincial system and arduous training. He is diplomatic on the subject of England’s midfield selection, offering a unique perspective on teaming up Marcus Smith, Owen Farrell and Manu Tuilagi.
.....

[ASMO]

and in another big "fuck you" to the the English game, Eddiot replaces a defence coach who never coached or played a game of union in his life, with another defence coach who never played or coached a game of union in his life. What must English defence coaches be thinking when they see shit like this? Who in the heirarchy of the RFU is approving these mental appointments?

[sockwithaticket]

and in another big "fuck you" to the the English game, Eddiot replaces a defence coach who never coached or played a game of union in his life, with another defence coach who never played or coached a game of union in his life. What must English defence coaches be thinking when they see shit like this? Who in the heirarchy of the RFU is approving these mental appointments?

That they're happy where they are right now and don't want to be part of the dog days of Eddie's regime?

If you're Leicester or Sale's defence coach, why would you give up that up for a 12 month stint with a man who's notoriously difficult to work with.

[SaintK]

and in another big "fuck you" to the the English game, Eddiot replaces a defence coach who never coached or played a game of union in his life, with another defence coach who never played or coached a game of union in his life. What must English defence coaches be thinking when they see shit like this? Who in the heirarchy of the RFU is approving these mental appointments?

That they're happy where they are right now and don't want to be part of the dog days of Eddie's regime?

If you're Leicester or Sale's defence coach, why would you give up that up for a 12 month stint with a man who's notoriously difficult to work with.

Unless you're an out of work former Wasps or Warriors coach. I wouldn't have thought any self respecting current Premiership coach would touch an England role with a bargepole

[sockwithaticket]

If you ignore the bitter Welshman doing the 'England are arrogant, why should they expect to beat Argentina at home' routine, today's BBC pod is a pretty good listen. Tom English makes the very salient point that Eddie has stated openly in the media one too many times that he hasn't done his job properly. Even if that's just part of getting the press to focus on him rather than the players, it's something that hasn't really been interrogated much by rugby journos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0ddws0r

[JM2K6]

This was a good read: https://samrobertsrugby.com/2022/11/07/just-desserts/

excerpts

For out of his mouth comes the truth of the situation: he is not looking to pick the best players, he is looking to create the best team to carry out the plan. Eddie wants a fifteen that will do what he tells them. He’s not interested in adapting to the ability of players or looking at potential and seeing where it will take him; he knows best and wants people to go his way. Always has.

...

This is a corporate venture. Not a sporting one. Where money is king and everything else doesn’t really matter. And because people keep on paying through the nose, complacency has set in at the top, in the team and judging by the way they just apathetically lapped up another toothless display, it’s set into the stands as well.

It’s true, I’m afraid, you get the coach you deserve.

[SaintK]

This was a good read: https://samrobertsrugby.com/2022/11/07/just-desserts/

excerpts

For out of his mouth comes the truth of the situation: he is not looking to pick the best players, he is looking to create the best team to carry out the plan. Eddie wants a fifteen that will do what he tells them. He’s not interested in adapting to the ability of players or looking at potential and seeing where it will take him; he knows best and wants people to go his way. Always has.

...

This is a corporate venture. Not a sporting one. Where money is king and everything else doesn’t really matter. And because people keep on paying through the nose, complacency has set in at the top, in the team and judging by the way they just apathetically lapped up another toothless display, it’s set into the stands as well.

It’s true, I’m afraid, you get the coach you deserve.

The article is spot on!

[Tichtheid]

As a Gooner I can appreciate Farrell's appeal to the ref in that tweet up there - it was like Tony Adams appealing for offside, a mainstay of his game for many years

[JM2K6]

It was a knock on, for the record. The side angle shows an obvious deflection. I'm glad it happened in a relatively meaningless game.

[Tichtheid]

It was a knock on, for the record. The side angle shows an obvious deflection. I'm glad it happened in a relatively meaningless game.

This is not "a hill I'm going to die on" as the kids say, but I watched countless replays on Sunday and I really couldn't see any deflection - is there a video of it?

I was genuinely wondering what they were talking about when the co-coms mentioned a deflection, I couldn't see it.

[Slick]

If you ignore the bitter Welshman doing the 'England are arrogant, why should they expect to beat Argentina at home' routine, today's BBC pod is a pretty good listen. Tom English makes the very salient point that Eddie has stated openly in the media one too many times that he hasn't done his job properly. Even if that's just part of getting the press to focus on him rather than the players, it's something that hasn't really been interrogated much by rugby journos.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sounds/play/p0ddws0r

I was just reading an article over lunch where I saw he said "it was fault, my coaching that wasn't good enough" and I immediately thought I was sure I've heard him say that on numerous occasions.

[Slick]

It was a knock on, for the record. The side angle shows an obvious deflection. I'm glad it happened in a relatively meaningless game.

This is not "a hill I'm going to die on" as the kids say, but I watched countless replays on Sunday and I really couldn't see any deflection - is there a video of it?

I was genuinely wondering what they were talking about when the co-coms mentioned a deflection, I couldn't see it.

I was the same. One of the comms team seemed sure he had seen one and I just couldn't see what he was talking about.

[Tichtheid]

It was a knock on, for the record. The side angle shows an obvious deflection. I'm glad it happened in a relatively meaningless game.

This is not "a hill I'm going to die on" as the kids say, but I watched countless replays on Sunday and I really couldn't see any deflection - is there a video of it?

I was genuinely wondering what they were talking about when the co-coms mentioned a deflection, I couldn't see it.

I was the same. One of the comms team seemed sure he had seen one and I just couldn't see what he was talking about.

I'm trying to find it on the replay on Prime.

Unfortunately Prime is the worst streaming site on t'internet. It only sometimes works on my tv and it's now decided to go audio-only on this laptop.

[inactionman]

If we're talking about the knock-on in the tackle, there was the tiniest deflection. It made no real difference to the flight of the ball, it was just a bad rushed pass, so I'm not getting too exercised about it.

[Margin__Walker]

It's this angle for me. Hit the ball with the outside of his hand/knuckles imo. If you slow it down with the < and > buttons on Youtube you can see the deviation (well Dewi doesn't agree tbf). Not clear and obvious though, so can absolutely see why it wasn't overturned and no excuse for not playing to the whistle.

[Niegs]

The more I watch this the more angry I am - Farrel and Nowell make absolutely no effort to recover the ball here - infact Nowell basically gives up.

I played level 5-6 and would have been absolutely bollocked for not playing to the whistle.

Add in Mako lumbering around the field - some of these players do not deserve to be there.

That's criminal from Nowell, what the hell was he doing?

I loved this take!

[Mahoney]

Just watched it again - the side on view is unclear. I feel like it might have deviated but I could believe it's an optical illusion. I'd be inclined to agree with the TMO that it's not clear enough to reverse the decision.

[Tichtheid]

Just watched it again - the side on view is unclear. I feel like it might have deviated but I could believe it's an optical illusion. I'd be inclined to agree with the TMO that it's not clear enough to reverse the decision.

I managed to get Prime to be kind enough to work, the ball is actually miles away from the Argentinian player at the point people are saying it deviated, the foreshortening on the angle makes it look like his arm is close, but it's not.

The original angle from the live tv feed shows it quite clearly, spider-cam would have shown this.

[Slick]

Just watched it again - the side on view is unclear. I feel like it might have deviated but I could believe it's an optical illusion. I'd be inclined to agree with the TMO that it's not clear enough to reverse the decision.

Pretty much what I was going to say. Quite probably a little deflection but could just be the angle, play on - although I'd be a bit annoyed if it was my team