The Official English Rugby Thread

[Margin__Walker]

Interesting. I'd probably rather O'Gara than Borthwick. Really enjoy hearing Ronan talking about the game. Certainly understand the desire for an English Coach though and Borthwick has done a great job at Leicester.

Would be happy with either.

[Paddington Bear]

I think he gets the job on his own merits, but equally I think there’s a huge question about how you rate your own system and set up if you don’t give the job to a man who has captained the test team and prem champions, coached within the national team successfully and then led a side from the bottom of the Prem to champions.

[JM2K6]

Sounds like a vote for Richard Cockerill to me!

[Margin__Walker]

Dean Ryan more like. He's always Johnny on the spot

[Paddington Bear]

Dimes is looking for work

[Kawazaki]

You can bookmark this:

I think Borthwick would not be a great option for England. He'll obviously be an upgrade on Eddiot but I can see him being ultra-conservative in selection and tactics. Remember what his post-match interviews were like when he was England captain.

England really do need a catalyst for change. I'd love Shaun Edwards to get the Head Coach position, he's the kind of personality who will get an atmosphere back at Twickenham, he won't pick players on reputation. It would be a clean slate.

[Paddington Bear]

There’s no atmosphere at Twickenham because tickets for any big game start at £100+ and they give far too many to corporates, if they want a bit of a roar they’ve got to make the top deck affordable and only sell those tickets to clubs and supporter’s club members

[Margin__Walker]

Yeah, I think Borthwick's at point where he's hard to overlook. Ticks so many of the boxes and it may end up being a huge success.

I'd also worry that it would be a pretty conservative setup though and not a huge amount in the way of a clean slate. That may well be what's required, but I'd be a bit nervous. More than anything I want to enjoy watching England play rugby again, and whilst Leicester have been great, they don't really capture the imagination.

Clearly winning is what matters in the international game though, and we can't be any less easy on the eye than we are at the moment.

Besides Eddie will end up pulling a World Cup out of his arse and be given another four year contract, so it'll all be moot.

[Margin__Walker]

There’s no atmosphere at Twickenham because tickets for any big game start at £100+ and they give far too many to corporates, if they want a bit of a roar they’ve got to make the top deck affordable and only sell those tickets to clubs and supporter’s club members

For sure. Gouge as much as you like for the decent seats, but there has to be some normal fans at games. Taking a family there would just be a non starter these days, after you've also factored in accommodation/food etc.

[sockwithaticket]

The team also need to give the punters something to get excited about on the pitch...

As for head coach. I'd want to see how Borthwick manages Leicester in what looks to be a bit of a slump after their leage win before annointing him. Can he turn things around or was the league win last year a bit of a fluke?

Wouldn't have a problem with O'Gara at all. He's been around the world getting experience in different elite outfits, although not at international level.

Borthwick does have the international experience, albeit as an assistant rather than the head man.

However, Like Kawazaki says, I also have horrible memories of some of his post-game interviews as England captain really trying to put lipstick on a pig. Maybe he's developed since then and maybe he'd get the team performing well enough where that wouldn't be necessary, but I'd blow a fucking gasket if he gave any of those as England coach.

[Kawazaki]

There’s no atmosphere at Twickenham because tickets for any big game start at £100+ and they give far too many to corporates, if they want a bit of a roar they’ve got to make the top deck affordable and only sell those tickets to clubs and supporter’s club members

The fare on the pitch has to be better at well. Not everyone at Twickenham was a corporate shill.

[Kawazaki]

For every box that Borthwick ticks, Edwards ticks two more.

Premiership head coach
Premiership title win as head coach
Won European cup as assistant coach
Won Grand Slam as assistant coach
Untainted by any connection to Jones
Reputation as one of best coaches in the world
English

[Paddington Bear]

There’s no atmosphere at Twickenham because tickets for any big game start at £100+ and they give far too many to corporates, if they want a bit of a roar they’ve got to make the top deck affordable and only sell those tickets to clubs and supporter’s club members

The fare on the pitch has to be better at well. Not everyone at Twickenham was a corporate shill.

Absolutely, but what happens when you charge what they are across the board is you get day trippers and only people who can afford it, not people who’ll make noise.
As MW said, I’m fully behind the RFU gouging as much as the market can bear off the best seats (and second hand sales suggest that is £200-300), but they should concentrate ‘proper fans’ in less premium seats to compensate. In the end corporates like some atmosphere as well.
Incidentally if the Japan game is as close as I suspect it could be a decent atmosphere this week.

[Kawazaki]

There’s no atmosphere at Twickenham because tickets for any big game start at £100+ and they give far too many to corporates, if they want a bit of a roar they’ve got to make the top deck affordable and only sell those tickets to clubs and supporter’s club members

The fare on the pitch has to be better at well. Not everyone at Twickenham was a corporate shill.

Absolutely, but what happens when you charge what they are across the board is you get day trippers and only people who can afford it, not people who’ll make noise.
As MW said, I’m fully behind the RFU gouging as much as the market can bear off the best seats (and second hand sales suggest that is £200-300), but they should concentrate ‘proper fans’ in less premium seats to compensate. In the end corporates like some atmosphere as well.
Incidentally if the Japan game is as close as I suspect it could be a decent atmosphere this week.

Of course yes. The irony is that Bill Sweeney knows absolutely nothing about rugby, literally nothing but he was bought in to get commercial revenues up.

He's fucking hopeless at that as well.

[lemonhead]

Speaking of which, is Underhill crocked?

I don't understand why the likes of Earl and Dombrandt don't seem to get a look in, I guess you lot are going to say, "Eddiot"?

Why the fuck are you picking one of the best locks in Europe on the flank?

When you have an ice cream van playing 8, you need a bit of pace elsewhere in the back row.

Yeah injured, not that he’s set the world alight since the RWC either. Fully agree otherwise, Earl would start for me.

These marginal calls tend to even themselves out - this year we probably should have had a pen at the final scrum vs Scotland and that could have been a knock on Sunday. Equally the winning try vs Wales opened up because Maro pushed a defender and it wasn’t given. We may well get another slice of luck off the refs in the next three games. There was nothing egregious.

We definitely got away with one against South Africa in the same autumn series as the disallowed Underhill try against NZ.

I can't recall who it was that Farrell sconed, but it was a penalty all day long, and maybe a card, and it was waved away.

Esterhuizen. And the birth of a beautiful rapport.



Always, always evens out. Laidlaw knocked on for Scotland's deciding try to Samoa in 15 with a little help from the TV director, then they got shafted by Joubert the following week.

[petej]

For every box that Borthwick ticks, Edwards ticks two more.

Premiership head coach
Premiership title win as head coach
Won European cup as assistant coach
Won Grand Slam as assistant coach
Untainted by any connection to Jones
Reputation as one of best coaches in the world
English

Edwards is a great defence coach but not a head coach. From what I remember wasps declined under edwards as head coach with the title win coming just after Gatland had left (wasps fans please correct me if this is wrong). Borthwick or o'gara are better options. I would probably go for o'gara of the two as he would have an external perspective on the players.

[JM2K6]

What's O'Gara's record as head coach? I was under the impression he was 'just' a defence coach, albeit a very good one.

[Slick]

Interesting. I'd probably rather O'Gara than Borthwick. Really enjoy hearing Ronan talking about the game. Certainly understand the desire for an English Coach though and Borthwick has done a great job at Leicester.

Would be happy with either.

I'd be a bit scared of England with O'Gara in charge, think he would do a great job

[Kawazaki]

For every box that Borthwick ticks, Edwards ticks two more.

Premiership head coach
Premiership title win as head coach
Won European cup as assistant coach
Won Grand Slam as assistant coach
Untainted by any connection to Jones
Reputation as one of best coaches in the world
English

Edwards is a great defence coach but not a head coach. From what I remember wasps declined under edwards as head coach with the title win coming just after Gatland had left (wasps fans please correct me if this is wrong). Borthwick or o'gara are better options. I would probably go for o'gara of the two as he would have an external perspective on the players.

Shaun Edwards is miles ahead of Borthwick and O'Gara, absolute miles ahead.

From Wiki:

In 2001, Edwards joined London Wasps in rugby union as a defence and backs coach, taking over as head coach in 2005 after Warren Gatland returned to New Zealand. Wasps won the English Rugby Union Championship three times in succession, in 2003, 2004 and 2005, and the Heineken Cup in 2004. During his reign as Head Coach London Wasps won the Anglo-Welsh Cup in 2006, the Heineken Cup in 2007 and the English Rugby Union Championship in 2008.

Edwards teamed up with Gatland again, after the latter was appointed head coach of Wales: Edwards had been offered the job of coaching England's second-tier side, England Saxons,[15] but preferred the assistant coach position with Wales. Former England player Matt Dawson stated that it was "a crime" that England lost him to Wales and described him as "the best coach in the world".[16] Edwards left his position at London Wasps in November 2011.[17]

Since joining the Wales coaching team, Edwards has helped the nation to Grand Slam wins in 2008, 2012 and 2019 as well the Six Nations title in 2013. Wales also reached the last four of the 2011 Rugby World Cup in New Zealand. In Edwards' first Six Nations Wales conceded just two tries on their way to the title and in 2013–14 Wales went more than 400 minutes in the tournament without conceding a try. He was named Rugby World International Coach of the Year in 2008.

It doesn't even include his revolution of French rugby which is probably his most impressive achievement.

[SaintK]

After Jones I'd be more than happy with any of that three being suggested

[Oxbow]

After Jones I'd be more than happy with any of that three being suggested

After Jones I'd be happy with you in charge!

[JM2K6]

I don't think "Edwards is an incredible defence coach but a questionable head coach at this level" is a contraversial stance to take. Every union has been gunshy about putting him in charge.

He is SO high impact as a defence coach I think you'd want him to concentrate on that. Everything he's good at is about his coaching.

[Kawazaki]

I don't think "Edwards is an incredible defence coach but a questionable head coach at this level" is a contraversial stance to take. Every union has been gunshy about putting him in charge.

He is SO high impact as a defence coach I think you'd want him to concentrate on that. Everything he's good at is about his coaching.

You make Edwards Head Coach and Defence Coach then get a 'Rugby Manager' type alongside to do most of the press and some player fluffing when required. Edwards achievements deserves the top job. He's served three apprenticeships.

[Margin__Walker]

What's O'Gara's record as head coach? I was under the impression he was 'just' a defence coach, albeit a very good one.

He's been Head Coach of La Rochelle since 2019. Two consecutive Champions Cup finals. Losing the first, before beating Leinster in the final last season.

He often turns up as a guest on Off The Ball on Youtube and he talks a good game, for what it's worth. Seems a bright, engaging guy, who's able to motivate a team.

Would just be a bolder call for me.

[Kawazaki]

What's O'Gara's record as head coach? I was under the impression he was 'just' a defence coach, albeit a very good one.

He's been Head Coach of La Rochelle since 2019. Two consecutive Champions Cup finals. Losing the first, before beating Leinster in the final last season.

He often turns up as a guest on Off The Ball on Youtube and he talks a good game, for what it's worth. Seems a bright, engaging guy, who's able to motivate a team.

Would just be a bolder call for me.

Not for me. Next coach has to have English skin in the game. Jones just doesn't give a fuck about the English and he spares little effort trying to hide it.

[Margin__Walker]

What's O'Gara's record as head coach? I was under the impression he was 'just' a defence coach, albeit a very good one.

He's been Head Coach of La Rochelle since 2019. Two consecutive Champions Cup finals. Losing the first, before beating Leinster in the final last season.

He often turns up as a guest on Off The Ball on Youtube and he talks a good game, for what it's worth. Seems a bright, engaging guy, who's able to motivate a team.

Would just be a bolder call for me.

Not for me. Next coach has to have English skin in the game. Jones just doesn't give a fuck about the English and he spares little effort trying to hide it.

Jones is Jones though.

Not every foreign coach is like that. I get the English angle, but I just don't see anyone English offer what O'Gara might. That's just me though maybe and I'll be relieved when anyone else is at the helm tbf

[Margin__Walker]

Teams out btw. Here are the highlights. Another fun looking midfield.

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... -for-japan

[Kawazaki]

He's been Head Coach of La Rochelle since 2019. Two consecutive Champions Cup finals. Losing the first, before beating Leinster in the final last season.

He often turns up as a guest on Off The Ball on Youtube and he talks a good game, for what it's worth. Seems a bright, engaging guy, who's able to motivate a team.

Would just be a bolder call for me.

Not for me. Next coach has to have English skin in the game. Jones just doesn't give a fuck about the English and he spares little effort trying to hide it.

Jones is Jones though.

Not every foreign coach is like that. I get the English angle, but I just don't see anyone English offer what O'Gara might. That's just me though maybe and I'll be relieved when anyone else is at the helm tbf

Eh? What about the English guy who has been doing it for the last decade??!!!

[Margin__Walker]

Not for me. Next coach has to have English skin in the game. Jones just doesn't give a fuck about the English and he spares little effort trying to hide it.

Jones is Jones though.

Not every foreign coach is like that. I get the English angle, but I just don't see anyone English offer what O'Gara might. That's just me though maybe and I'll be relieved when anyone else is at the helm tbf

Eh? What about the English guy who has been doing it for the last decade??!!!

Edwards is doing a great job in France. French rugby in general is in rude health in comparison. He'd be interesting and would absolutely be a good option, I'd just personally prefer someone younger and on the up.

[Kawazaki]

15. Freddie Steward
14. Jack Nowell (VC)
13. Guy Porter
12. Owen Farrell (C)
11. Jonny May
10. Marcus Smith
9. Jack van Poortvliet
1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. David Ribbans
5. Jonny Hill
6. Maro Itoje
7. Tom Curry
8. Sam Simmonds

Finishers

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Joe Heyes
19. Alex Coles
20. Billy Vunipola
21. Ben Youngs
22. Henry Slade
23. Manu Tuilagi



Here's a game. How many English 13s can you name that are better than Porter?

[JM2K6]

I don't think "Edwards is an incredible defence coach but a questionable head coach at this level" is a contraversial stance to take. Every union has been gunshy about putting him in charge.

He is SO high impact as a defence coach I think you'd want him to concentrate on that. Everything he's good at is about his coaching.

You make Edwards Head Coach and Defence Coach then get a 'Rugby Manager' type alongside to do most of the press and some player fluffing when required. Edwards achievements deserves the top job. He's served three apprenticeships.

I'm not arguing with his record. I'm saying that this discussion has come up a few times ever since he left Wasps and it seems like being a world class defence coach is his role in life & that a few national sides seem to agree. I am also asking what he would bring to England as head coach that he wouldn't bring to England as defence coach. He is transformational as a defence coach. Where is the pressure to change that by making him head coach instead?

What's O'Gara's record as head coach? I was under the impression he was 'just' a defence coach, albeit a very good one.

He's been Head Coach of La Rochelle since 2019. Two consecutive Champions Cup finals. Losing the first, before beating Leinster in the final last season.

He often turns up as a guest on Off The Ball on Youtube and he talks a good game, for what it's worth. Seems a bright, engaging guy, who's able to motivate a team.

Would just be a bolder call for me.

Thanks, wasn't sure but that's a lot of relevant experience. I've always found him a little odd as a dial-in pundit (iirc he was doing that during the NZ/Ireland series?) but he's remarkably well regarded within the game.


re: English coaches having more skin in the game - true. But it doesn't matter with the right head coach. Look at Gatland. No-one could ever accuse him of not taking Wales seriously, to the point where it massively warped how he viewed the Lions job.

[Kawazaki]

I'm not arguing with his record. I'm saying that this discussion has come up a few times ever since he left Wasps and it seems like being a world class defence coach is his role in life & that a few national sides seem to agree. I am also asking what he would bring to England as head coach that he wouldn't bring to England as defence coach. He is transformational as a defence coach. Where is the pressure to change that by making him head coach instead?

Edwards would be Head Coach and Defence Coach.

He's been a head coach before, a very successful one. In short, I'd make him head coach because he's had such massive transformational influences on his team's whilst holding lesser specific roles. This man has massive vision and influence. Players love him. Why wouldn't you want that in the head coach?!

[JM2K6]

15. Freddie Steward
14. Jack Nowell (VC)
13. Guy Porter
12. Owen Farrell (C)
11. Jonny May
10. Marcus Smith
9. Jack van Poortvliet
1. Ellis Genge (VC)
2. Luke Cowan-Dickie
3. Kyle Sinckler
4. David Ribbans
5. Jonny Hill
6. Maro Itoje
7. Tom Curry
8. Sam Simmonds

Finishers

16. Jamie George
17. Mako Vunipola
18. Joe Heyes
19. Alex Coles
20. Billy Vunipola
21. Ben Youngs
22. Henry Slade
23. Manu Tuilagi



Here's a game. How many English 13s can you name that are better than Porter?

Coles plays well so is dropped for Ribbans (who I like) and Itoje stays at 6. Billy dropped - not sure if this is just a reaction to the pace Japan play at, but Billy did have a pretty shite game all told so that's something. Porter given a chance against a 'minnow' to do something useful to justify his place. YOUNGS DROPPED. To the bench. For now.

Nowell was worse than Cokanasiga and is on the downslope of his career in comparison but Eddie's made a big deal out of making him VC so he stays and Joe is dropped (I'd have binned both, tbf), in favour of selecting one of the fit English wingers who isn't in any decent form.


13s:

Marchant, Northmore, Daly, Lozowski, Potter, Joseph, Joseph, Tuilagi, Lawrence, Sam James, and then I got bored and I have to work

[Kawazaki]

re: English coaches having more skin in the game - true. But it doesn't matter with the right head coach. Look at Gatland. No-one could ever accuse him of not taking Wales seriously, to the point where it massively warped how he viewed the Lions job.

It worked for Gatland in Wales but ask the Irish what they think of him.

[JM2K6]

I'm not arguing with his record. I'm saying that this discussion has come up a few times ever since he left Wasps and it seems like being a world class defence coach is his role in life & that a few national sides seem to agree. I am also asking what he would bring to England as head coach that he wouldn't bring to England as defence coach. He is transformational as a defence coach. Where is the pressure to change that by making him head coach instead?

Edwards would be Head Coach and Defence Coach.

He's been a head coach before, a very successful one. In short, I'd make him head coach because he's had such massive transformational influences on his team's whilst holding lesser specific roles. This man has massive vision and influence. Players love him. Why wouldn't you want that in the head coach?!

He was head coach 14 years ago at a club side. Again, not diminishing his achievements there. But I think it's worth asking why he hasn't had a sniff of a HC position at international level after that despite excelling at his job.

I also agree he brings loads to a team. And he does that as a defence coach/assistant coach. So if you can get that from him as a defence coach, why risk overloading him or unearthing other problems by making him shoulder even more responsibility? Is there value to be had from a head coach who isn't also in charge of one of the core aspects of the game? IIRC Eddie views himself as a backs coach and that's been a shitshow; most successful international sides I can think of have a head coach who isn't also defence/backs/attack/forwards coach, but I might be wrong on that.

I'm also not saying you're wrong and that he'd be bad as a head coach. Just that the arguments in favour of him being head coach instead of "just" an assistant coach largely boil down to "he's earned it". In essence it almost works against him that he is absolutely magical as a defence coach.

[JM2K6]

re: English coaches having more skin in the game - true. But it doesn't matter with the right head coach. Look at Gatland. No-one could ever accuse him of not taking Wales seriously, to the point where it massively warped how he viewed the Lions job.

It worked for Gatland in Wales but ask the Irish what they think of him.

That was pre-Wasps, no? Gatland hadn't cut his teeth at that point. A couple of years poking around with Connacht, that's about it.

There's loads of examples of foreign coaches falling flat on their arses. Loads of examples of English ones too, though.

[Kawazaki]

Unless I'm massively wrong (it's happened before) then England will not win the RWC next year. Whether England go out in the pool, quarters or semis, it will be blunt end to the Jones era. He will leave nothing behind him, no legacy, no structure, no goodwill, nothing. It will be a wasteland. It's going to need a man with a massive personality and plenty of international experience to go into that environment and repair the carnage that Jones will leave behind.

Personally, I think that person has to be English, they have to be a catalyst for change and they have to have no previous connection to Jones. For me, Edwards ticks all the boxes, I think it's his time as the head man. He's always wanted the England HC job, that's no secret.

Regards your doubts about stepping up from defence to HC, I give you Andy Farrell.

[Hal Jordan]

What were Porter's stats again? I'm sure JMK unearthed some risible performances.

[Kawazaki]

What were Porter's stats again? I'm sure JMK unearthed some risible performances.

He played for Sydney Uni first team. Anchorman on the boat race

[Paddington Bear]

I think there is an anglophone tendency to ascribe all (or at least most) of France's improvement to Sean Edwards at the expense of the wider coaching team, more focussed FFR and of course the players.