The Official English Rugby Thread

[Margin__Walker]

I think there is an anglophone tendency to ascribe all (or at least most) of France's improvement to Sean Edwards at the expense of the wider coaching team, more focussed FFR and of course the players.

That's a fair point. When responding to Toga earlier I actually forgot he wasn't the France Head Coach. May just be me, but given the English connections he does tend to be the first to get the credit over here.

[JM2K6]

Regards your doubts about stepping up from defence to HC, I give you Andy Farrell.

I'm not saying defence coaches can't make good head coaches. Andy Farrell wasn't a transformative, world class defence coach.

Genuinely all I'm trying to say here is that Edwards is by some distance the best defence coach in world rugby and the best there's been since that Aussie bloke in the late 90s, and that it would appear that national sides regard him as exactly that and don't want to kill the golden goose by making him a head coach and I can understand why. You have someone who is incredible at what he does and is capable of enacting huge change in his role, moulding the team in his image, all while not being head coach. So these sides probably wonder why take the risk of the head coach job diluting what he's good at?

I am assuming there's no secret reason why, like it's an insider story about him being awful at xyz which makes him unsuitable.

I would not complain if he was made head coach and I accept almost all your arguments in his favour. I would also completely understand why any country would fight to the death to have him as defence coach only and let someone else do all the other things. I do think the English-only thing is a relatively weak argument but in his case it's simply the cherry on top.

[JM2K6]

What were Porter's stats again? I'm sure JMK unearthed some risible performances.

"Guy Porter vs Australia: 2 matches, 21m made from 6 carries (0m in his 2nd game), 3 passes (0 in his 1st game), 16 successful tackles with 9 missed (65% success rate!), 3 turnovers conceded, 1 offload, 2 defenders beaten, no tries, no try assists"

[JM2K6]

I think there is an anglophone tendency to ascribe all (or at least most) of France's improvement to Sean Edwards at the expense of the wider coaching team, more focussed FFR and of course the players.

That's a fair point. When responding to Toga earlier I actually forgot he wasn't the France Head Coach. May just be me, but given the English connections he does tend to be the first to get the credit over here.

I think giving Edwards the lion's share of the credit is warranted. France's biggest problems were related: general attitude, and defensive prowess. He instantly transformed the latter and his methods instill a huge work ethic that alters the former.

[Hal Jordan]

What were Porter's stats again? I'm sure JMK unearthed some risible performances.

"Guy Porter vs Australia: 2 matches, 21m made from 6 carries (0m in his 2nd game), 3 passes (0 in his 1st game), 16 successful tackles with 9 missed (65% success rate!), 3 turnovers conceded, 1 offload, 2 defenders beaten, no tries, no try assists"

SOLID.

[Margin__Walker]

Porter's one of those lads that come in and looks straight out of the 2006 - 2009 glory years. Just painfully military medium, in after a solid season for a very good club side.

[sockwithaticket]

I think there is an anglophone tendency to ascribe all (or at least most) of France's improvement to Sean Edwards at the expense of the wider coaching team, more focussed FFR and of course the players.

That's a fair point. When responding to Toga earlier I actually forgot he wasn't the France Head Coach. May just be me, but given the English connections he does tend to be the first to get the credit over here.

I think giving Edwards the lion's share of the credit is warranted. France's biggest problems were related: general attitude, and defensive prowess. He instantly transformed the latter and his methods instill a huge work ethic that alters the former.

I dunno about his impact on general attitude. Admittedly the following is largely from Ben Kayser, but he's noted Galthie as being unusually driven by French standards and that the younger professionals coming through at the moment, many of them to the national side, are far more diligent and dedicated than previous generations of players. Someone like Villiere was already the hardest worker at his club, he hasn't needed that to be instilled in him. Dupont is apparently incredibly hungry to improve all the time and that was before being involved in the national set up.

[JM2K6]

That's a fair point. When responding to Toga earlier I actually forgot he wasn't the France Head Coach. May just be me, but given the English connections he does tend to be the first to get the credit over here.

I think giving Edwards the lion's share of the credit is warranted. France's biggest problems were related: general attitude, and defensive prowess. He instantly transformed the latter and his methods instill a huge work ethic that alters the former.

I dunno about his impact on general attitude. Admittedly the following is largely from Ben Kayser, but he's noted Galthie as being unusually driven by French standards and that the younger professionals coming through at the moment, many of them to the national side, are far more diligent and dedicated than previous generations of players. Someone like Villiere was already the hardest worker at his club, he hasn't needed that to be instilled in him. Dupont is apparently incredibly hungry to improve all the time and that was before being involved in the national set up.

Sure. They're individuals, though, and it's the team ethic that's important. And it's not just that they're diligent, it's that they've got that Edwards mad competitiveness and desire to throw everything they've got into defence approach that is so distinctive. They compete like no-one else. Has Galthie instilled that before anywhere?

[Ovals]

I think giving Edwards the lion's share of the credit is warranted. France's biggest problems were related: general attitude, and defensive prowess. He instantly transformed the latter and his methods instill a huge work ethic that alters the former.

I dunno about his impact on general attitude. Admittedly the following is largely from Ben Kayser, but he's noted Galthie as being unusually driven by French standards and that the younger professionals coming through at the moment, many of them to the national side, are far more diligent and dedicated than previous generations of players. Someone like Villiere was already the hardest worker at his club, he hasn't needed that to be instilled in him. Dupont is apparently incredibly hungry to improve all the time and that was before being involved in the national set up.

Sure. They're individuals, though, and it's the team ethic that's important. And it's not just that they're diligent, it's that they've got that Edwards mad competitiveness and desire to throw everything they've got into defence approach that is so distinctive. They compete like no-one else. Has Galthie instilled that before anywhere?

Would Edwards take the England Defence Coach job ? Having been spurned on a few occasions I think he might only be interested in the Head role. It's not as if he wouln't be short of offers elsewhere.

[inactionman]

I think giving Edwards the lion's share of the credit is warranted. France's biggest problems were related: general attitude, and defensive prowess. He instantly transformed the latter and his methods instill a huge work ethic that alters the former.

I dunno about his impact on general attitude. Admittedly the following is largely from Ben Kayser, but he's noted Galthie as being unusually driven by French standards and that the younger professionals coming through at the moment, many of them to the national side, are far more diligent and dedicated than previous generations of players. Someone like Villiere was already the hardest worker at his club, he hasn't needed that to be instilled in him. Dupont is apparently incredibly hungry to improve all the time and that was before being involved in the national set up.

Sure. They're individuals, though, and it's the team ethic that's important. And it's not just that they're diligent, it's that they've got that Edwards mad competitiveness and desire to throw everything they've got into defence approach that is so distinctive. They compete like no-one else. Has Galthie instilled that before anywhere?

I understood that Galthie has done a lot of work in building relations with the clubs, which was reputedly not in that great a shape after Noves in particular.

I mention that just to make two points:
- the success of the national side requires more than just decent coaching, it needs a decent system - NZ were traditionally ahead of everyone in this regard, but France seem to be making strides and Galthie deserves credit for that;
- to compare and contrast with Eddie, who seems to make it a point of principle to be as hostile and argumentative and generally dickheaded with the clubs as humanly possible. Whether he has a point or there's a modicum of truth in some of his criticisms or not, it's truly unhelpful.

[Kawazaki]

Would Edwards take the England Defence Coach job ? Having been spurned on a few occasions I think he might only be interested in the Head role. It's not as if he wouln't be short of offers elsewhere.

In the few times that I've seen him comment regards coaching England, he's strongly implied that he wants the top job only. There was a chance for him to work with Jones but I don't think the conversation went very far or lasted very long. I suspect Edwards would see through the Jones bullshit very quickly and Jones is smart enough to know it.

[sockwithaticket]

I think giving Edwards the lion's share of the credit is warranted. France's biggest problems were related: general attitude, and defensive prowess. He instantly transformed the latter and his methods instill a huge work ethic that alters the former.

I dunno about his impact on general attitude. Admittedly the following is largely from Ben Kayser, but he's noted Galthie as being unusually driven by French standards and that the younger professionals coming through at the moment, many of them to the national side, are far more diligent and dedicated than previous generations of players. Someone like Villiere was already the hardest worker at his club, he hasn't needed that to be instilled in him. Dupont is apparently incredibly hungry to improve all the time and that was before being involved in the national set up.

Sure. They're individuals, though, and it's the team ethic that's important. And it's not just that they're diligent, it's that they've got that Edwards mad competitiveness and desire to throw everything they've got into defence approach that is so distinctive. They compete like no-one else. Has Galthie instilled that before anywhere?

Can't really say, I don't follow French rugby closely enough.

[SaintK]

Shamelessly stolen from the other place!
This is mind boggling when you see it laid our like this

[sockwithaticket]

Shamelessly stolen from the other place!
This is mind boggling when you see it laid our like this

Saw it on reddit and people were defending it saying it was nothing unusual

As far as I can recall, most coaching tickets stay together for a world cup cycle unless there's some serious dysfunction in which case one of the big jobs (defence, attack, forwards) might change.

[Slick]

Would Edwards take the England Defence Coach job ? Having been spurned on a few occasions I think he might only be interested in the Head role. It's not as if he wouln't be short of offers elsewhere.

In the few times that I've seen him comment regards coaching England, he's strongly implied that he wants the top job only. There was a chance for him to work with Jones but I don't think the conversation went very far or lasted very long. I suspect Edwards would see through the Jones bullshit very quickly and Jones is smart enough to know it.

Didn't he turn it down before joining France because he wanted the top job?

[Kawazaki]

Shamelessly stolen from the other place!
This is mind boggling when you see it laid our like this

What's probably more notable is the gaps that simply haven't been filled at all. I don't think any decent coach in RU wants to work with Jones. Helps explain why RL coaches who've never coached or played RU in their life are the only ones he can get.

English rugby is very bad hands at the moment.

[inactionman]

Sounds like Ollie Devoto is getting close to a return.

Sadly think the England ship has sailed, but good news for Exeter.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/63569931

[SaintK]

Shamelessly stolen from the other place!
This is mind boggling when you see it laid our like this

What's probably more notable is the gaps that simply haven't been filled at all. I don't think any decent coach in RU wants to work with Jones. Helps explain why RL coaches who've never coached or played RU in their life are the only ones he can get.

English rugby is very bad hands at the moment.

Sent it to my mate who is an ex RFU Elite coach and he reminded me that Jones has also got through about 15 to 20 analysts, physios and medics over the same period

[inactionman]

Shamelessly stolen from the other place!
This is mind boggling when you see it laid our like this

What's probably more notable is the gaps that simply haven't been filled at all. I don't think any decent coach in RU wants to work with Jones. Helps explain why RL coaches who've never coached or played RU in their life are the only ones he can get.

English rugby is very bad hands at the moment.

Sent it to my mate who is an ex RFU Elite coach and he reminded me that Jones has also got through about 15 to 20 analysts, physios and medics over the same period

I'm in no way defending Eddie, but it's probably worth bearing in mind many of the departures were to do with his ferocious demands rather than disagreements with approach, tactics etc. It's a minor thing but it's quite different to people fleeing technical incompetence.

I recall Mitchell left as Eddie didn't want him going to one of his son's cricket matches on his day off, which was a scummy thing to demand and probably came on top of other scummy demands.

A good case for removing any line management responsibility, frankly, and you wonder how much better would be if Jones could just cut out the snarky shit.

[JM2K6]

What's probably more notable is the gaps that simply haven't been filled at all. I don't think any decent coach in RU wants to work with Jones. Helps explain why RL coaches who've never coached or played RU in their life are the only ones he can get.

English rugby is very bad hands at the moment.

Sent it to my mate who is an ex RFU Elite coach and he reminded me that Jones has also got through about 15 to 20 analysts, physios and medics over the same period

I'm in no way defending Eddie, but it's probably worth bearing in mind many of the departures were to do with his ferocious demands rather than disagreements with approach, tactics etc. It's a minor thing but it's quite different to people fleeing technical incompetence.

I recall Mitchell left as Eddie didn't want him going to one of his son's cricket matches on his day off, which was a scummy thing to demand and probably came on top of other scummy demands.

A good case for removing any line management responsibility, frankly, and you wonder how much better would be if Jones could just cut out the snarky shit.

Well, yeah. We've heard enough to know he's an absolute cunt to work for.

[Paddington Bear]

I was +1ing at a work social event earlier this year and a woman struck up conversation with me:
'PB - I hear you play rugby'
So I mentioned I used to and now play a bit of touch in an evening league, she mentions her boyfriend 'plays a bit' as well and I suggest he should join my touch team. So I dig out my phone to find the team whatsapp group, only to look up and find said boyfriend has joined the conversation - it's David Ribbans.
So Friday night I'll be desperately trying to grab tags in a losing cause on a 4g council pitch and Saturday he'll be playing for England. 'Plays a bit'

[SaintK]

Sent it to my mate who is an ex RFU Elite coach and he reminded me that Jones has also got through about 15 to 20 analysts, physios and medics over the same period

I'm in no way defending Eddie, but it's probably worth bearing in mind many of the departures were to do with his ferocious demands rather than disagreements with approach, tactics etc. It's a minor thing but it's quite different to people fleeing technical incompetence.

I recall Mitchell left as Eddie didn't want him going to one of his son's cricket matches on his day off, which was a scummy thing to demand and probably came on top of other scummy demands.

A good case for removing any line management responsibility, frankly, and you wonder how much better would be if Jones could just cut out the snarky shit.

Well, yeah. We've heard enough to know he's an absolute cunt to work for.

Which is exactly what my mate said!!!

[SaintK]

I was +1ing at a work social event earlier this year and a woman struck up conversation with me:
'PB - I hear you play rugby'
So I mentioned I used to and now play a bit of touch in an evening league, she mentions her boyfriend 'plays a bit' as well and I suggest he should join my touch team. So I dig out my phone to find the team whatsapp group, only to look up and find said boyfriend has joined the conversation - it's David Ribbans.
So Friday night I'll be desperately trying to grab tags in a losing cause on a 4g council pitch and Saturday he'll be playing for England. 'Plays a bit'

[Kawazaki]

In the books that bear Eddie Jones's name (I describe them that way as I suspect they were 85% ghost written), they paint a very different picture to the reality. It's all about effective communication, empowerment, delegation, facilitation and development etc etc. It's all bollocks isn't it. Everything Jones does is to serve his own ego. I think he's a sociopath with strong narcissistic tendencies.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

I dunno about his impact on general attitude. Admittedly the following is largely from Ben Kayser, but he's noted Galthie as being unusually driven by French standards and that the younger professionals coming through at the moment, many of them to the national side, are far more diligent and dedicated than previous generations of players. Someone like Villiere was already the hardest worker at his club, he hasn't needed that to be instilled in him. Dupont is apparently incredibly hungry to improve all the time and that was before being involved in the national set up.

Sure. They're individuals, though, and it's the team ethic that's important. And it's not just that they're diligent, it's that they've got that Edwards mad competitiveness and desire to throw everything they've got into defence approach that is so distinctive. They compete like no-one else. Has Galthie instilled that before anywhere?

Can't really say, I don't follow French rugby closely enough.

Galthie is thought of as tactically a very astute coach, but one who struggles with personal relationships, partly because he's so driven/relentless, sounds like someone else. So typically if the players do listen to Galthie they tend to stop, because at some point getting a bollocking gets boring.

Being a national coach and not a club coach thus suits Galthie somewhat. The players get more time away from him and the (often) younger players come into national setup willing to be worked that much harder than they would be in a club environment. And Galthie has a cadre of coaches around him the players do like, or at least like enough, it tends to be the physios and wider support staff the players really like. And to get back to Eddie it's possible not enough allowances have been made for the tone in a camp when so many people the players like keep vanishing because they weren't up to standard for what would be some very specific takes Eddie can have

[Kawazaki]

I just found Alastair Eykyn's Twitter account. He's got some views on Jones hasn't he? Nice.

In one of the reply comments, somebody suggested that he thought Eddie Jones might be trying to get himself sacked. I'd never actually thought this before but it's not as crazy a notion to explain his behaviour actually. He's very money-motivated and I'd imagine the thought of resigning and losing the huge salary would never do. Solution: get sacked and you get the money in a lump sum with the bonus that he can say we'll never know how his plan would have worked because he was sacked before he could enact it. Being sacked would mean his reputation would take a hit but not as bad as a terrible RWC performance would

[sockwithaticket]

Sure. They're individuals, though, and it's the team ethic that's important. And it's not just that they're diligent, it's that they've got that Edwards mad competitiveness and desire to throw everything they've got into defence approach that is so distinctive. They compete like no-one else. Has Galthie instilled that before anywhere?

Can't really say, I don't follow French rugby closely enough.

Galthie is thought of as tactically a very astute coach, but one who struggles with personal relationships, partly because he's so driven/relentless, sounds like someone else. So typically if the players do listen to Galthie they tend to stop, because at some point getting a bollocking gets boring.

Being a national coach and not a club coach thus suits Galthie somewhat. The players get more time away from him and the (often) younger players come into national setup willing to be worked that much harder than they would be in a club environment. And Galthie has a cadre of coaches around him the players do like, or at least like enough, it tends to be the physios and wider support staff the players really like. And to get back to Eddie it's possible not enough allowances have been made for the tone in a camp when so many people the players like keep vanishing because they weren't up to standard for what would be some very specific takes Eddie can have

Yes, as I understand it, again primarily from Kayser, Ibanez is primarily there as Team Manager to see to the man management side of things that's not Galthie's forte.

[JM2K6]

Hah, the number of enraged Tigers fans on Eykyn's feed because he described Porter as being "undone in Australia". Very amused by this.

Also very proud of myself for not wading in especially with one guy arguing with a Quins fan that Porter is just as versatile as Marchant and can play 12 and was the form 12 and 13 last season in the league apparently

[Hal Jordan]

Hah, the number of enraged Tigers fans on Eykyn's feed because he described Porter as being "undone in Australia". Very amused by this.

Also very proud of myself for not wading in especially with one guy arguing with a Quins fan that Porter is just as versatile as Marchant and can play 12 and was the form 12 and 13 last season in the league apparently

I refrained from dropping your stats on that thread, life's too short.

[SaintK]

So Marchant is not good enough for the England training squad but good enough to start for the Barbarians against All Blacks
Will be interesting to see how Mercer goes as well
Barbarians (vs All Blacks XV, Sunday)
15. Leyds; 14. Thomas, 13. Marchant, 12. Ngati, 11. Bridge; 10. Hastoy, 9. Kerr-Barlow; 1. Marler, 2. Chat, 3. Ryan, 4. Picquette, 5. Tagitagivalu, 6. Lauret, 7. Whitelock (capt), 8. Mercer. Reps: 16. Bosch, 17. Gomes Sa, 18. Henri Colombe, 19. Sazy, 20. Wainwright, 21. Webb, 22. West, 23. Rhule.

[GogLais]

I see young Dafydd Jenkins is captaining Exeter at 19. Special circumstances? Please look after and develop him for us.

[SaintK]

Joe Marler

[Ovals]

So Marchant is not good enough for the England training squad but good enough to start for the Barbarians against All Blacks
Will be interesting to see how Mercer goes as well
Barbarians (vs All Blacks XV, Sunday)
15. Leyds; 14. Thomas, 13. Marchant, 12. Ngati, 11. Bridge; 10. Hastoy, 9. Kerr-Barlow; 1. Marler, 2. Chat, 3. Ryan, 4. Picquette, 5. Tagitagivalu, 6. Lauret, 7. Whitelock (capt), 8. Mercer. Reps: 16. Bosch, 17. Gomes Sa, 18. Henri Colombe, 19. Sazy, 20. Wainwright, 21. Webb, 22. West, 23. Rhule.

And now he's off to France - can't blame him given Eddie's ignorant selections for England.

[Tichtheid]

Outstanding finish from Bath to win the game

[sockwithaticket]

Hell of a finish to the Tigers - Bath game. One for the purists in the main, but there've been a few moments and the try followed by a brawl is definitely up there!

Bath are starting a bit of a run. That's 3 from 3 now?

[Lobby]

Paucity of Leicester’s ambition amply demonstrated by that game. 40% of the first half was played in Bath’s 22, but when Leicester’s power game failed to provide them with points, they had nothing else to offer.

[sockwithaticket]

They were a limited team for a lot of last season and no longer have the confidence of being on an improbably long winning streak or the brilliance of George Ford.

[inactionman]

Paucity of Leicester’s ambition amply demonstrated by that game. 40% of the first half was played in Bath’s 22, but when Leicester’s power game failed to provide them with points, they had nothing else to offer.

Weird, with burns and Watson I thought they might have had more of a crack through the backs, Ashton and nadolo can cause a fair few problems as well.

Potter dropping it over the line was the sort of thing bath would have done in the last two seasons

Bath looking like we've turned the corner, although still a way to go. All the Worcester lads looked good which bodes well for us but is a bit bittersweet given what's gone on there.

[petej]

They were a limited team for a lot of last season and no longer have the confidence of being on an improbably long winning streak or the brilliance of George Ford.

Genge is a big loss as well.

[Paddington Bear]

Cracking finish, and a game that belied the ‘barbour jacket man can never create a decent atmosphere’ discussion that’s been going around in some quarters since Sunday