Stop voting for fucking Tories

[Paddington Bear]

I am not sure there is such a thing as cohesive English nationalism...it is more that because England's electorate now dwarfs that in the other home nations (a relatively recent development in the history of the UK) that it's become possible to be elected to government with a minority voter base in Scotland and Wales (this is the one reason for Welsh and Scottish nationalism I have some sympathy for...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Hard to compare directly but for fair chunks of the Victorian era the Irish Parliamentary Party held the balance of power and Irish Unionists sat with the Tories until the 70s. The winning a significant majority in England has always been the challenging bit as England doesn’t vote as a bloc

[Tichtheid]

I am not sure there is such a thing as cohesive English nationalism...it is more that because England's electorate now dwarfs that in the other home nations (a relatively recent development in the history of the UK) that it's become possible to be elected to government with a minority voter base in Scotland and Wales (this is the one reason for Welsh and Scottish nationalism I have some sympathy for...

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Hard to compare directly but for fair chunks of the Victorian era the Irish Parliamentary Party held the balance of power and Irish Unionists sat with the Tories until the 70s. The winning a significant majority in England has always been the challenging bit as England doesn’t vote as a bloc

I read the post as saying that it's only recently become a mathematical possibility to win a GE with a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NI because of the large growth in the population of England.

[Paddington Bear]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Hard to compare directly but for fair chunks of the Victorian era the Irish Parliamentary Party held the balance of power and Irish Unionists sat with the Tories until the 70s. The winning a significant majority in England has always been the challenging bit as England doesn’t vote as a bloc

I read the post as saying that it's only recently become a mathematical possibility to win a GE with a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NI because of the large growth in the population of England.

Yeah likewise don’t have the stats to hand but would agree it seems unlikely. IIRC the populations of England and Scotland weren’t so different until there was a huge divergence maybe in the 1600s?

[Calculon]

during the middle ages Scotland's population was about 20 to 25% of England's, now they're closer to 10%

[Simian]

hadn't occurred to me before, but just thinking about the thread title.... are there people who actually vote in favour of sexual intercourse with Conservative party members? Like, ngl... they won't be good shags, right? Or is the consensus view that the pent up sexual frustration of years in boarding schools means they will be?

#AskingForAFriend

[Biffer]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but since the Parliament of Great Britain, or whatever the correct term was after 1707 and on into the UK, English seats have always vastly outnumbered the combined total of the other constituent parts of the UK, meaning that you don't even really need a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NIrn if you can win a significant majority in England.

Hard to compare directly but for fair chunks of the Victorian era the Irish Parliamentary Party held the balance of power and Irish Unionists sat with the Tories until the 70s. The winning a significant majority in England has always been the challenging bit as England doesn’t vote as a bloc

I read the post as saying that it's only recently become a mathematical possibility to win a GE with a minority base in Scotland/Wal/NI because of the large growth in the population of England.

What are you guys meaning by recently? Scottish votes have barely influenced a general election result since the second World War.

[yermum]

during the middle ages Scotland's population was about 20 to 25% of England's, now they're closer to 10%

But the deer hunting is amazing now.

[JM2K6]

The usual crop of racists, stooges, useful idiots and white replacement conspira-hate-preachers are hyperventilating furiously about all this.

Muslamic ray guns, lamentations that some cities will exist where white people are the minority and "Father" Calvin changing his background to Enoch Powell are much in evidence on the bird app, with the usual Farage monologue to his mobile camera, filmed so closely you can see the subtle shading of the different hues of yellow and brown on his teeth.

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

[Tichtheid]

When is the NHS getting the extra £350M per week as per the promise?

[dpedin]

When is the NHS getting the extra £350M per week as per the promise?

Sunlit uplands, my boy, sunlit uplands! All you have to do is squeeze your eyes shut very, very hard, believe all the Blonde Bumblecunt twaddle and wait 30 years and before you know it ....

[Paddington Bear]

The usual crop of racists, stooges, useful idiots and white replacement conspira-hate-preachers are hyperventilating furiously about all this.

Muslamic ray guns, lamentations that some cities will exist where white people are the minority and "Father" Calvin changing his background to Enoch Powell are much in evidence on the bird app, with the usual Farage monologue to his mobile camera, filmed so closely you can see the subtle shading of the different hues of yellow and brown on his teeth.

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

Farage needs to be told to fuck off, but there's a strand of opinion that suggests that a change in 20 years of London going from c.80% White British to under 40% isn't even worthy of comment. It is, IMHO, because:

1) In of itself it is quite remarkable and unprecedented in this country
2) It has big implications for the kind of country we are going to be going forward
3) As I mentioned kicking this off, it raises a number of questions about how we create/maintain a cohesive society. Not least as because the white population over this time nationally has stagnated rather than materially declined, meaning regardless of people's statements an awful lot of white people vote with their feet when it comes to living in close proximity to black or brown people. We're both in/around London, we both know what 'its for the schools' tends to mean when people leave. Ignoring this as Britain becomes more diverse doesn't make it go away and encourages a situation much like the Americans have.


This thread is pretty thoughtful on it IMHO

[Slick]

The usual crop of racists, stooges, useful idiots and white replacement conspira-hate-preachers are hyperventilating furiously about all this.

Muslamic ray guns, lamentations that some cities will exist where white people are the minority and "Father" Calvin changing his background to Enoch Powell are much in evidence on the bird app, with the usual Farage monologue to his mobile camera, filmed so closely you can see the subtle shading of the different hues of yellow and brown on his teeth.

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

[Slick]

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

Farage needs to be told to fuck off, but there's a strand of opinion that suggests that a change in 20 years of London going from c.80% White British to under 40% isn't even worthy of comment. It is, IMHO, because:

1) In of itself it is quite remarkable and unprecedented in this country
2) It has big implications for the kind of country we are going to be going forward
3) As I mentioned kicking this off, it raises a number of questions about how we create/maintain a cohesive society. Not least as because the white population over this time nationally has stagnated rather than materially declined, meaning regardless of people's statements an awful lot of white people vote with their feet when it comes to living in close proximity to black or brown people. We're both in/around London, we both know what 'its for the schools' tends to mean when people leave. Ignoring this as Britain becomes more diverse doesn't make it go away and encourages a situation much like the Americans have.


This thread is pretty thoughtful on it IMHO

Generally, black people want to live near black people, brown people want to live near brown people and white people want to live near white people, it's the same the world over. But in the above situation, only one scenario is problematic and racist. It just seems to me it is a completely normal part of human nature and we probably have to accept it and embrace it rather than chasing some utopia that antagonises everyone.

[JM2K6]

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

Farage needs to be told to fuck off, but there's a strand of opinion that suggests that a change in 20 years of London going from c.80% White British to under 40% isn't even worthy of comment. It is, IMHO, because:

1) In of itself it is quite remarkable and unprecedented in this country
2) It has big implications for the kind of country we are going to be going forward
3) As I mentioned kicking this off, it raises a number of questions about how we create/maintain a cohesive society. Not least as because the white population over this time nationally has stagnated rather than materially declined, meaning regardless of people's statements an awful lot of white people vote with their feet when it comes to living in close proximity to black or brown people. We're both in/around London, we both know what 'its for the schools' tends to mean when people leave. Ignoring this as Britain becomes more diverse doesn't make it go away and encourages a situation much like the Americans have.


This thread is pretty thoughtful on it IMHO

Not dismissing what you're saying but this strand of conversation is explicitly about the far right and alt right headbangers, not people wanting to actually discuss the demographic changes without being disingenuous pricks. I just wanted to make it clear to Slick that there is a distinction there.

To address your points a bit -

1) In of itself it is quite remarkable and unprecedented in this country
2) It has big implications for the kind of country we are going to be going forward

London isn't "this country" and extrapolating to the entire country is not good stats work IMO. London is London. It's always been its own thing. Is the statistical change reflected in Birmingham, Manchester, Liverpool, Newcastle, etc?

3) As I mentioned kicking this off, it raises a number of questions about how we create/maintain a cohesive society. Not least as because the white population over this time nationally has stagnated rather than materially declined, meaning regardless of people's statements an awful lot of white people vote with their feet when it comes to living in close proximity to black or brown people. We're both in/around London, we both know what 'its for the schools' tends to mean when people leave. Ignoring this as Britain becomes more diverse doesn't make it go away and encourages a situation much like the Americans have.

I think this is a pretty complicated question, honestly. I'd want to see the how this breaks down in terms of economic status - I don't think we can ignore either the housing crisis or the effect of Covid on a large number of richer people (who I assume would skew white) who fled the capital.

I think Sundar's bunch are going to be releasing a lot of analysis on this over the coming months and I don't think I can even begin to talk confidently about any of this with just the raw data, there's too many variables and just too much information.


On the British identity point, this seems to matter:

[I like neeps]

You write something like this then throw your arms up in the air and wonder why something like Brexit happened

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

[Slick]

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

[Simian]

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

Sorry if I'm being thick, but what exactly is the problem with a place like London not being majority white British. In other words, what exactly are the concerns of the millions of people you mentioned? If it's not racism / xenophobia, what is it?

[Paddington Bear]

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.
2) different people from different cultures are different, as controversial as it is to say. And the more people from x culture there are in a neighbourhood the more it resembles their culture and the less everyone else’s. This means someone could have lived in an area for 20/30 years and barely recognise the place and people around them. Not necessarily a bad thing at all but certainly disconcerting.
3) leaning on point 2), I know an awful lot of people who grew up in parts of North London that are now totally unrecognisable and the community they grew up in no longer exists, from the people to the shops/facilities, to the public realm, to sports clubs and societies etc. Times change everywhere but I bet you’d hate that happening to where you grew up as well. You see this in reverse as parts of the black community complain about Brixton getting whiter and yuppier, so everyone gets this point even when they pretend not to.
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large
5) as Slick alluded to there’s something pretty rich and to add my own opinion tedious about getting lectures on how us irredeemably racist English should deal with the challenges presented by diversity and demographic change from someone who lives in a nation that is for all intents and purposes monoethnic. Given my experience of Scotland is that phrases like ‘grabbing a chinky’ or ‘popping round to the P- shop’ are still in vogue it suggests to me a significant number of your countrymen would react poorly were things happening at the same scale.

[Slick]

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

Sorry if I'm being thick, but what exactly is the problem with a place like London not being majority white British. In other words, what exactly are the concerns of the millions of people you mentioned? If it's not racism / xenophobia, what is it?

See Paddingtons post.

I'd also add that if you are going to down that route then you probably have to accept that all the Bangladeshis in East London, or the folk of Indian heritage around West London, or the Pakistanis around Yorkshire, or any number of other places where people choose to live that have almost 100% mono ethnicity are also racist/xenophobic

[I like neeps]

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

I've lived in London - Canada Water which is a diverse area. I now life in Oxford which likely isn't minority white but has huge diversity.

[sockwithaticket]

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.

And we have seen already in incidents dotted around the country how some of this change can be difficult when it involves communities whose values and identities clash. Whether it's the recent clashes in Leicester between Hindus and Muslims or the Muslim protests a couple of years ago outside a Birmingham primary school that dared to teach its pupils that LGBT couples exist.

The pace of change makes it difficult to mitigate and manage this, it makes non-assimilation and self-segregation easy.

[Paddington Bear]

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.

And we have seen already in incidents dotted around the country how some of this change can be difficult when it involves communities whose values and identities clash. Whether it's the recent clashes in Leicester between Hindus and Muslims or the Muslim protests a couple of years ago outside a Birmingham primary school that dared to teach its pupils that LGBT couples exist.

The pace of change makes it difficult to mitigate and manage this, it makes non-assimilation and self-segregation easy.

Yep. Would add the accession of particularly Poland to the EU to this, a government clusterfuck that poured rocket fuel into Farage et al. Handled properly no one would have cared beyond the real 1/2% fringe

[Slick]

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

I've lived in London - Canada Water which is a diverse area. I now life in Oxford which likely isn't minority white but has huge diversity.

Fair enough, but I don't think you can really equate that experience to people who have had roots there for generations.

[I like neeps]

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.
2) different people from different cultures are different, as controversial as it is to say. And the more people from x culture there are in a neighbourhood the more it resembles their culture and the less everyone else’s. This means someone could have lived in an area for 20/30 years and barely recognise the place and people around them. Not necessarily a bad thing at all but certainly disconcerting.
3) leaning on point 2), I know an awful lot of people who grew up in parts of North London that are now totally unrecognisable and the community they grew up in no longer exists, from the people to the shops/facilities, to the public realm, to sports clubs and societies etc. Times change everywhere but I bet you’d hate that happening to where you grew up as well. You see this in reverse as parts of the black community complain about Brixton getting whiter and yuppier, so everyone gets this point even when they pretend not to.
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large
5) as Slick alluded to there’s something pretty rich and to add my own opinion tedious about getting lectures on how us irredeemably racist English should deal with the challenges presented by diversity and demographic change from someone who lives in a nation that is for all intents and purposes monoethnic. Given my experience of Scotland is that phrases like ‘grabbing a chinky’ or ‘popping round to the P- shop’ are still in vogue it suggests to me a significant number of your countrymen would react poorly were things happening at the same scale.

See my reply to Slick - I live in England and have for at least 12 years. So happily point 5 can be totally disregarded. Fwiw I do think a number of Scots are racist as the terms you reference are still widely used.

Your point about pace of change is curious. Because (a) if you've decided the change is bad because the faces are brown you are a racist I'm afraid. If someone has specific points about the culture changing I'd be interested in hearing what they are specifically regarding your locality. (B) I've lived across the UK there's no homogeneous culture anyway. Which you actually allude to in point 3. Places change - what's concerning really is that when I go home to Dundee it hasn't changed in 20/30 years at all. I'd bet you that places that have minority white population now are least concerned by the changes. And (c) sports clubs, societies, local facilities changing and closing etc isn't really brought about by diversity anyway. If you look at sports participation in Dundee where I'm from the rugby clubs I played for, the boys brigade I was a member of and the football club I played for all struggle and the reason as you mentioned in point 5 is not diversity. The fall in Christianity is driven by atheists etc. Societies have changed in the last 20 years mostly due to economics, cars, online shopping, mobile phones rather than diversity. And I appreciate those concerns, I'm a communitarian at heart.

I appreciate the issues that arise in Leicester where there have been pitched cultural battles and yes I appreciate you have to integrate cultures is important and not happening as well as it could. But integration in London is actually pretty good you'd say, no?

[robmatic]

4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large

Indeed. See how exercised people get about gentrification, which is essentially the same process.

[SaintK]

Will be interesting when Sunak finally get round to appointing an ethics adviser

Forty potential breaches of the ministerial code have never been referred for investigation by the ethics adviser, according to new data.
The pressure group Transparency International has been among those calling for the role to have significantly enhanced powers since it was vacated by Christopher Geidt five months ago under Boris Johnson.
In analysis of media reports, the group found 40 potential breaches of the ministerial code have not been investigated over the past five years. Those included:
Meetings by Nadhim Zahawi and Kwasi Kwarteng with the Libyan politician Fathi Bashagha, organised by the lobbyist Mark Fullbrook who became Truss’s chief of staff.
Michael Gove’s acceptance of £120,000 in donations from property developers while serving as housing secretary.
Multiple meetings held by Anne-Marie Trevelyan with a Chinese state-owned nuclear power company with no record of what was discussed.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2022 ... reveals

[I like neeps]

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

I've lived in London - Canada Water which is a diverse area. I now life in Oxford which likely isn't minority white but has huge diversity.

Fair enough, but I don't think you can really equate that experience to people who have had roots there for generations.

And I haven't. But as I said to PB - if your neighbourhood changes and what you don't like about it is that there's foreigns there you are racist. If you don't like the sports club doesn't get members, the library and swimming pool have closed down, your favourite pub shut, your church group is smaller every year, the high street bank went online and chains are everywhere then yes I think that's bad but I don't think it's a problem that's started with diversity.

[GogLais]

This is a weird post, Slick. Are we not allowed to call the racists and scumbags racists and scumbags any more? Should we be giving people like Douglas Murray and Nigel Farage and all the far right / alt right headcases loads of respect for their disingenuous bleating over this?

Brexit happened in part because people like Farage weren't challenged on their absolute bullshit. Murray has been doing the whole "I told you guys this would happen and everyone called me a racist" schtick, conveniently ignoring that he claimed Christians would become a minority thanks to Islam - when in reality all that's happened is people have become less religious full stop.

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Ah well. It saddens me when largely English incomers “swamp” villages in North Wales meaning that I rarely hear my mother tongue when I go there. Am I racist? Perhaps I don’t want to know.

[Slick]

I've lived in London - Canada Water which is a diverse area. I now life in Oxford which likely isn't minority white but has huge diversity.

Fair enough, but I don't think you can really equate that experience to people who have had roots there for generations.

And I haven't. But as I said to PB - if your neighbourhood changes and what you don't like about it is that there's foreigns there you are racist. If you don't like the sports club doesn't get members, the library and swimming pool have closed down, your favourite pub shut, your church group is smaller every year, the high street bank went online and chains are everywhere then yes I think that's bad but I don't think it's a problem that's started with diversity.

I think you are trying really hard to ignore the issue. Presumably you would agree that a person of Indian heritage moving to Southall to be with people of their own culture is also racist?

[Lobby]

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.
2) different people from different cultures are different, as controversial as it is to say. And the more people from x culture there are in a neighbourhood the more it resembles their culture and the less everyone else’s. This means someone could have lived in an area for 20/30 years and barely recognise the place and people around them. Not necessarily a bad thing at all but certainly disconcerting.
3) leaning on point 2), I know an awful lot of people who grew up in parts of North London that are now totally unrecognisable and the community they grew up in no longer exists, from the people to the shops/facilities, to the public realm, to sports clubs and societies etc. Times change everywhere but I bet you’d hate that happening to where you grew up as well. You see this in reverse as parts of the black community complain about Brixton getting whiter and yuppier, so everyone gets this point even when they pretend not to.
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large
5) as Slick alluded to there’s something pretty rich and to add my own opinion tedious about getting lectures on how us irredeemably racist English should deal with the challenges presented by diversity and demographic change from someone who lives in a nation that is for all intents and purposes monoethnic. Given my experience of Scotland is that phrases like ‘grabbing a chinky’ or ‘popping round to the P- shop’ are still in vogue it suggests to me a significant number of your countrymen would react poorly were things happening at the same scale.

See my reply to Slick - I live in England and have for at least 12 years. So happily point 5 can be totally disregarded. Fwiw I do think a number of Scots are racist as the terms you reference are still widely used.

Your point about pace of change is curious. Because (a) if you've decided the change is bad because the faces are brown you are a racist I'm afraid. If someone has specific points about the culture changing I'd be interested in hearing what they are specifically regarding your locality. (B) I've lived across the UK there's no homogeneous culture anyway. Which you actually allude to in point 3. Places change - what's concerning really is that when I go home to Dundee it hasn't changed in 20/30 years at all. I'd bet you that places that have minority white population now are least concerned by the changes. And (c) sports clubs, societies, local facilities changing and closing etc isn't really brought about by diversity anyway. If you look at sports participation in Dundee where I'm from the rugby clubs I played for, the boys brigade I was a member of and the football club I played for all struggle and the reason as you mentioned in point 5 is not diversity. The fall in Christianity is driven by atheists etc. Societies have changed in the last 20 years mostly due to economics, cars, online shopping, mobile phones rather than diversity. And I appreciate those concerns, I'm a communitarian at heart.

I appreciate the issues that arise in Leicester where there have been pitched cultural battles and yes I appreciate you have to integrate cultures is important and not happening as well as it could. But integration in London is actually pretty good you'd say, no?

This recent story would seem to support your’s and Paddington’s point about racism still being an issue in parts of Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-63807748

I wonder if that is in part due to the lack of diversity in Scotland, which according to the last census was 96% white.

[I like neeps]

We should spend even more time calling racist scumbags, racist and scumbags. What we shouldn't do is pat ourselves on the back from calling them that and dismiss concerns of millions of people.

What is concerning about London not being a majority white British/english/Welsh/Scottish city though that isn't just racism?

Ah well. It saddens me when largely English incomers “swamp” villages in North Wales meaning that I rarely hear my mother tongue when I go there. Am I racist? Perhaps I don’t want to know.

I think this is bad faith as I doubt any village of Wales has majority English people anyway other than maybe peak holiday season and your issue there isn't actually the issue we're discussing. And English is the first language in Wales anyway. So much so the Welsh govt have been hugely investing in the Welsh language (which I like).

But, this is a "legitimate concern" I think isn't racist. But only 1% of people in England can't speak English and 91% speak English as a first language. Which is down 1% since the last census so something to monitor.

[I like neeps]

Fair enough, but I don't think you can really equate that experience to people who have had roots there for generations.

And I haven't. But as I said to PB - if your neighbourhood changes and what you don't like about it is that there's foreigns there you are racist. If you don't like the sports club doesn't get members, the library and swimming pool have closed down, your favourite pub shut, your church group is smaller every year, the high street bank went online and chains are everywhere then yes I think that's bad but I don't think it's a problem that's started with diversity.

I think you are trying really hard to ignore the issue. Presumably you would agree that a person of Indian heritage moving to Southall to be with people of their own culture is also racist?

I don't understand this question. Yes, non whites can be racist? When did I claim they can't?

[Slick]

And I haven't. But as I said to PB - if your neighbourhood changes and what you don't like about it is that there's foreigns there you are racist. If you don't like the sports club doesn't get members, the library and swimming pool have closed down, your favourite pub shut, your church group is smaller every year, the high street bank went online and chains are everywhere then yes I think that's bad but I don't think it's a problem that's started with diversity.

I think you are trying really hard to ignore the issue. Presumably you would agree that a person of Indian heritage moving to Southall to be with people of their own culture is also racist?

I don't understand this question. Yes, non whites can be racist? When did I claim they can't?

I just don't think it's necessarily correct to shout racist at people when all they want to do is live with people of their own background and culture. Otherwise we are going to be doing a lot of shouting racist at people, and that seems to be the way it's going anyway.

[Slick]

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.
2) different people from different cultures are different, as controversial as it is to say. And the more people from x culture there are in a neighbourhood the more it resembles their culture and the less everyone else’s. This means someone could have lived in an area for 20/30 years and barely recognise the place and people around them. Not necessarily a bad thing at all but certainly disconcerting.
3) leaning on point 2), I know an awful lot of people who grew up in parts of North London that are now totally unrecognisable and the community they grew up in no longer exists, from the people to the shops/facilities, to the public realm, to sports clubs and societies etc. Times change everywhere but I bet you’d hate that happening to where you grew up as well. You see this in reverse as parts of the black community complain about Brixton getting whiter and yuppier, so everyone gets this point even when they pretend not to.
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large
5) as Slick alluded to there’s something pretty rich and to add my own opinion tedious about getting lectures on how us irredeemably racist English should deal with the challenges presented by diversity and demographic change from someone who lives in a nation that is for all intents and purposes monoethnic. Given my experience of Scotland is that phrases like ‘grabbing a chinky’ or ‘popping round to the P- shop’ are still in vogue it suggests to me a significant number of your countrymen would react poorly were things happening at the same scale.

See my reply to Slick - I live in England and have for at least 12 years. So happily point 5 can be totally disregarded. Fwiw I do think a number of Scots are racist as the terms you reference are still widely used.

Your point about pace of change is curious. Because (a) if you've decided the change is bad because the faces are brown you are a racist I'm afraid. If someone has specific points about the culture changing I'd be interested in hearing what they are specifically regarding your locality. (B) I've lived across the UK there's no homogeneous culture anyway. Which you actually allude to in point 3. Places change - what's concerning really is that when I go home to Dundee it hasn't changed in 20/30 years at all. I'd bet you that places that have minority white population now are least concerned by the changes. And (c) sports clubs, societies, local facilities changing and closing etc isn't really brought about by diversity anyway. If you look at sports participation in Dundee where I'm from the rugby clubs I played for, the boys brigade I was a member of and the football club I played for all struggle and the reason as you mentioned in point 5 is not diversity. The fall in Christianity is driven by atheists etc. Societies have changed in the last 20 years mostly due to economics, cars, online shopping, mobile phones rather than diversity. And I appreciate those concerns, I'm a communitarian at heart.

I appreciate the issues that arise in Leicester where there have been pitched cultural battles and yes I appreciate you have to integrate cultures is important and not happening as well as it could. But integration in London is actually pretty good you'd say, no?

This recent story would seem to support your’s and Paddington’s point about racism still being an issue in parts of Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-63807748

I wonder if that is in part due to the lack of diversity in Scotland, which according to the last census was 96% white.

We don't have racism in Scotland and what you call 96% white, we call diverse and inclusive

I think that's right.

[Lobby]

See my reply to Slick - I live in England and have for at least 12 years. So happily point 5 can be totally disregarded. Fwiw I do think a number of Scots are racist as the terms you reference are still widely used.

Your point about pace of change is curious. Because (a) if you've decided the change is bad because the faces are brown you are a racist I'm afraid. If someone has specific points about the culture changing I'd be interested in hearing what they are specifically regarding your locality. (B) I've lived across the UK there's no homogeneous culture anyway. Which you actually allude to in point 3. Places change - what's concerning really is that when I go home to Dundee it hasn't changed in 20/30 years at all. I'd bet you that places that have minority white population now are least concerned by the changes. And (c) sports clubs, societies, local facilities changing and closing etc isn't really brought about by diversity anyway. If you look at sports participation in Dundee where I'm from the rugby clubs I played for, the boys brigade I was a member of and the football club I played for all struggle and the reason as you mentioned in point 5 is not diversity. The fall in Christianity is driven by atheists etc. Societies have changed in the last 20 years mostly due to economics, cars, online shopping, mobile phones rather than diversity. And I appreciate those concerns, I'm a communitarian at heart.

I appreciate the issues that arise in Leicester where there have been pitched cultural battles and yes I appreciate you have to integrate cultures is important and not happening as well as it could. But integration in London is actually pretty good you'd say, no?

This recent story would seem to support your’s and Paddington’s point about racism still being an issue in parts of Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-63807748

I wonder if that is in part due to the lack of diversity in Scotland, which according to the last census was 96% white.

We don't have racism in Scotland and what you call 96% white, we call diverse and inclusive

I think that's right.

As per the linked article “we have this perception that Scotland is exempt from racism somehow, but it's not."

[I like neeps]

I think you are trying really hard to ignore the issue. Presumably you would agree that a person of Indian heritage moving to Southall to be with people of their own culture is also racist?

I don't understand this question. Yes, non whites can be racist? When did I claim they can't?

I just don't think it's necessarily correct to shout racist at people when all they want to do is live with people of their own background and culture. Otherwise we are going to be doing a lot of shouting racist at people, and that seems to be the way it's going anyway.

But it is racist to think if someone isn't white they can't be the same culture?

[Slick]

I don't understand this question. Yes, non whites can be racist? When did I claim they can't?

I just don't think it's necessarily correct to shout racist at people when all they want to do is live with people of their own background and culture. Otherwise we are going to be doing a lot of shouting racist at people, and that seems to be the way it's going anyway.

But it is racist to think if someone isn't white they can't be the same culture?

Dinnae, you know exactly what I mean

[robmatic]

To try and take this seriously:
1) the sheer pace of change as I outlined before. Would be the same for anything and it presents challenges on how you manage and plan for it.
2) different people from different cultures are different, as controversial as it is to say. And the more people from x culture there are in a neighbourhood the more it resembles their culture and the less everyone else’s. This means someone could have lived in an area for 20/30 years and barely recognise the place and people around them. Not necessarily a bad thing at all but certainly disconcerting.
3) leaning on point 2), I know an awful lot of people who grew up in parts of North London that are now totally unrecognisable and the community they grew up in no longer exists, from the people to the shops/facilities, to the public realm, to sports clubs and societies etc. Times change everywhere but I bet you’d hate that happening to where you grew up as well. You see this in reverse as parts of the black community complain about Brixton getting whiter and yuppier, so everyone gets this point even when they pretend not to.
4) people see what has happened in terms of areas radically changing and don’t massively want that for the area they live in. Agree or disagree with that but I wouldn’t say that’s overtly racist, people just don’t like change around them by and large
5) as Slick alluded to there’s something pretty rich and to add my own opinion tedious about getting lectures on how us irredeemably racist English should deal with the challenges presented by diversity and demographic change from someone who lives in a nation that is for all intents and purposes monoethnic. Given my experience of Scotland is that phrases like ‘grabbing a chinky’ or ‘popping round to the P- shop’ are still in vogue it suggests to me a significant number of your countrymen would react poorly were things happening at the same scale.

See my reply to Slick - I live in England and have for at least 12 years. So happily point 5 can be totally disregarded. Fwiw I do think a number of Scots are racist as the terms you reference are still widely used.

Your point about pace of change is curious. Because (a) if you've decided the change is bad because the faces are brown you are a racist I'm afraid. If someone has specific points about the culture changing I'd be interested in hearing what they are specifically regarding your locality. (B) I've lived across the UK there's no homogeneous culture anyway. Which you actually allude to in point 3. Places change - what's concerning really is that when I go home to Dundee it hasn't changed in 20/30 years at all. I'd bet you that places that have minority white population now are least concerned by the changes. And (c) sports clubs, societies, local facilities changing and closing etc isn't really brought about by diversity anyway. If you look at sports participation in Dundee where I'm from the rugby clubs I played for, the boys brigade I was a member of and the football club I played for all struggle and the reason as you mentioned in point 5 is not diversity. The fall in Christianity is driven by atheists etc. Societies have changed in the last 20 years mostly due to economics, cars, online shopping, mobile phones rather than diversity. And I appreciate those concerns, I'm a communitarian at heart.

I appreciate the issues that arise in Leicester where there have been pitched cultural battles and yes I appreciate you have to integrate cultures is important and not happening as well as it could. But integration in London is actually pretty good you'd say, no?

This recent story would seem to support your’s and Paddington’s point about racism still being an issue in parts of Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-63807748

I wonder if that is in part due to the lack of diversity in Scotland, which according to the last census was 96% white.

My now-wife had a terrible time trying to get job interviews in Edinburgh and Glasgow after she graduated, despite having an excellent CV for the roles she was applying for. I"ve always assumed it was because of her foreign and probably brown sounding name.

[Dinsdale Piranha]

See my reply to Slick - I live in England and have for at least 12 years. So happily point 5 can be totally disregarded. Fwiw I do think a number of Scots are racist as the terms you reference are still widely used.

Your point about pace of change is curious. Because (a) if you've decided the change is bad because the faces are brown you are a racist I'm afraid. If someone has specific points about the culture changing I'd be interested in hearing what they are specifically regarding your locality. (B) I've lived across the UK there's no homogeneous culture anyway. Which you actually allude to in point 3. Places change - what's concerning really is that when I go home to Dundee it hasn't changed in 20/30 years at all. I'd bet you that places that have minority white population now are least concerned by the changes. And (c) sports clubs, societies, local facilities changing and closing etc isn't really brought about by diversity anyway. If you look at sports participation in Dundee where I'm from the rugby clubs I played for, the boys brigade I was a member of and the football club I played for all struggle and the reason as you mentioned in point 5 is not diversity. The fall in Christianity is driven by atheists etc. Societies have changed in the last 20 years mostly due to economics, cars, online shopping, mobile phones rather than diversity. And I appreciate those concerns, I'm a communitarian at heart.

I appreciate the issues that arise in Leicester where there have been pitched cultural battles and yes I appreciate you have to integrate cultures is important and not happening as well as it could. But integration in London is actually pretty good you'd say, no?

This recent story would seem to support your’s and Paddington’s point about racism still being an issue in parts of Scotland.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... t-63807748

I wonder if that is in part due to the lack of diversity in Scotland, which according to the last census was 96% white.

My now-wife had a terrible time trying to get job interviews in Edinburgh and Glasgow after she graduated, despite having an excellent CV for the roles she was applying for. I"ve always assumed it was because of her foreign and probably brown sounding name.

On the flip side, a relative auditioned for a part in Shetland (the TV series) and was rejected for not being black enough

[Simian]

Do you live there? Or just being preachy from your Scottish White neighbourhood?

Sorry if I'm being thick, but what exactly is the problem with a place like London not being majority white British. In other words, what exactly are the concerns of the millions of people you mentioned? If it's not racism / xenophobia, what is it?

See Paddingtons post.

I'd also add that if you are going to down that route then you probably have to accept that all the Bangladeshis in East London, or the folk of Indian heritage around West London, or the Pakistanis around Yorkshire, or any number of other places where people choose to live that have almost 100% mono ethnicity are also racist/xenophobic

Both Paddington’s post and your own are just a series of total non sequiturs.

Paddington says that people being different and change coming rapidly is a problem. Why? (On his point abiut racist terms being common in Scotland… I have always lived in Scotland and find people using the terms he describes is rare and people who do use them are generally pulled up swiftly. I work in London and other jig English cities frequently and, personally, have found the levels of casual and explicit racism considerably higher in England than Scotland).

Your point, slick, makes no sense and is disingenuous. The issue isn’t living in a community that is homogenous in terms of ethnicity. It’s your claim people are concerned about the possibility that they might not.