UK Home energy prices

[GogLais]

Well due to lower than expected wind power generation and "the world cup effect" this warning went out earlier but was later cancelled. The warning was actually aimed at the suppliers to the National Grid to ensure they met their obligations but allegedly we've been able to buy in supply from across the Channel and they expect to meet demand....

The England v Wales match next week is apparently a time of concern if too many people decide to make a cup of tea at half time.

Doesn't really bode too well for the cold and dark months ahead...

Cup of tea at half-time? Wusses.

[GogLais]

As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

Just give a few quid to charity every month, works for me.

[tabascoboy]

Just had a Air source heat pump quote back.

The running costs are higher than gas.

I am finding it difficult to justify the massive outlay on getting one fitted. (£10000 with the grant)

If the grants etc covered a greater amount of the outlay I would suck up the higher costs of running. As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

However mother earth can go fuck herself for now as I don't have ten large sitting around just to allow myself to one up the neighbours.

Honestly can't see much appeal to convert at the moment, only reason would be if the gas supply either becomes much more expensive or there is a shortage meaning domestic supply is rationed. In either case we still rely on gas for electricity generation so neither of those reasons would go away, simply transfer to electricity supply particularly with increased demand for EV charging.

There is the environmental aspect of course, but can't see net zero being attainable while maintaining supply either without a big increase in nuclear power or the holy grail of cheap fusion power. Feel like taking for granted heating and energy supply at affordable cost is a thing of the past.

[yermum]

As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

Just give a few quid to charity every month, works for me.

I do that already I really felt like this heat pump could take that feeling to the next level. I'm talking about telsa owning levels.

[Biffer]

If England get to the quarter final prepare for blackouts.

Anyone know how much the national grid in the uk would localise blackouts?

Ideally just in Scotland as they won't be needing half time cups of tea. (I'm here all week folks.)

I'm more thinking that given we generate more than we need we might still have power, so out tellies will still be on while parts of England are desperately looking for the wind up radio in the attic. In the dark.

[yermum]

As this week has shown you don't get a say. Energy independence comes with sovereignty.

In all seriousness I don't have a scooby about how blackouts are managed

[Dinsdale Piranha]

Just had a Air source heat pump quote back.

The running costs are higher than gas.

I am finding it difficult to justify the massive outlay on getting one fitted. (£10000 with the grant)

If the grants etc covered a greater amount of the outlay I would suck up the higher costs of running. As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

However mother earth can go fuck herself for now as I don't have ten large sitting around just to allow myself to one up the neighbours.

How big a unit? I'm considering one for my flat combined with under floor heating.

[yermum]

Just had a Air source heat pump quote back.

The running costs are higher than gas.

I am finding it difficult to justify the massive outlay on getting one fitted. (£10000 with the grant)

If the grants etc covered a greater amount of the outlay I would suck up the higher costs of running. As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

However mother earth can go fuck herself for now as I don't have ten large sitting around just to allow myself to one up the neighbours.

How big a unit? I'm considering one for my flat combined with under floor heating.

We need 2x 10khw units.

[petej]

Just had a Air source heat pump quote back.

The running costs are higher than gas.

I am finding it difficult to justify the massive outlay on getting one fitted. (£10000 with the grant)

If the grants etc covered a greater amount of the outlay I would suck up the higher costs of running. As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

However mother earth can go fuck herself for now as I don't have ten large sitting around just to allow myself to one up the neighbours.

Honestly can't see much appeal to convert at the moment, only reason would be if the gas supply either becomes much more expensive or there is a shortage meaning domestic supply is rationed. In either case we still rely on gas for electricity generation so neither of those reasons would go away, simply transfer to electricity supply particularly with increased demand for EV charging.

There is the environmental aspect of course, but can't see net zero being attainable while maintaining supply either without a big increase in nuclear power or the holy grail of cheap fusion power. Feel like taking for granted heating and energy supply at affordable cost is a thing of the past.

IET did a good thing on it which I can't find. Achievable but heat is the trickiest part and energy efficiency is typically more important than politicians make out. Transport difficult as well. Need more active travel, public transport and stop pretending electric cars are the solution. To generate an economic incentive for heat pumps we need to decouple gas and electricity. I still think nuclear fission has a massive role in net zero

[Biffer]

Just had a Air source heat pump quote back.

The running costs are higher than gas.

I am finding it difficult to justify the massive outlay on getting one fitted. (£10000 with the grant)

If the grants etc covered a greater amount of the outlay I would suck up the higher costs of running. As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

However mother earth can go fuck herself for now as I don't have ten large sitting around just to allow myself to one up the neighbours.

I think it’s only worth it if you go the whole hog and get solar panels / wind turbine / battery system so that you’re not paying for much externally generated electricity. I’d probably look at the heat pump last of those options to complete the system, but have it designed as a system to be as close to self sufficient as practical.

[Hal Jordan]

Which is how they should be building new houses, as opposed to the crap they put up now

[yermum]

Just had a Air source heat pump quote back.

The running costs are higher than gas.

I am finding it difficult to justify the massive outlay on getting one fitted. (£10000 with the grant)

If the grants etc covered a greater amount of the outlay I would suck up the higher costs of running. As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

However mother earth can go fuck herself for now as I don't have ten large sitting around just to allow myself to one up the neighbours.

I think it’s only worth it if you go the whole hog and get solar panels / wind turbine / battery system so that you’re not paying for much externally generated electricity. I’d probably look at the heat pump last of those options to complete the system, but have it designed as a system to be as close to self sufficient as practical.

We have solar and battery but it still didn't quite add up.

There needs to be a change in electricity pricing to make heat pumps a viable option.

[Glaston]

If England get to the quarter final prepare for blackouts.

Anyone know how much the national grid in the uk would localise blackouts?

UK has been exporting 10-20% of its electricity production over the last 3 weeks.
Unless God watches England and doesn't make the wind blow , things should be good.

[petej]

Just had a Air source heat pump quote back.

The running costs are higher than gas.

I am finding it difficult to justify the massive outlay on getting one fitted. (£10000 with the grant)

If the grants etc covered a greater amount of the outlay I would suck up the higher costs of running. As I could swan around with a smug holier than thou attitude and feel very pleased with myself.

However mother earth can go fuck herself for now as I don't have ten large sitting around just to allow myself to one up the neighbours.

I think it’s only worth it if you go the whole hog and get solar panels / wind turbine / battery system so that you’re not paying for much externally generated electricity. I’d probably look at the heat pump last of those options to complete the system, but have it designed as a system to be as close to self sufficient as practical.

We have solar and battery but it still didn't quite add up.

There needs to be a change in electricity pricing to make heat pumps a viable option.

ditto. Pay £10,000 to save £0. Once my boiler dies I will do it. Or if gas and electricity decouple and the energy unit cost moves closer to 1:1 instead 3 or 4 to 1 as it is currently.

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Dear citizens of NPR, some advice requested.

I live in a timber-frame house that's about 25 years old. The windows are double-glazed, but with wooden frames which have seen better days and a few of the units have blown. The heating system is a traditional non-condensing gas boiler, gravity fed with hot water tank (i.e. not a combi). The boiler is working fine, but the motorised valves sometimes pass (i.e. the radiators heat up when only the hot water is on), and also when it's on frost-protection mode (it's in the garage, so this happens quite a bit in winter) the radiators also heat up, so the diverter valve is passing.

Question: which to replace first? Windows or boiler? Which will give the best energy saving, and which is likely to give the shortest payback?

TIA.

[Sandstorm]

Dear citizens of NPR, some advice requested.

I live in a timber-frame house that's about 25 years old. The windows are double-glazed, but with wooden frames which have seen better days and a few of the units have blown. The heating system is a traditional non-condensing gas boiler, gravity fed with hot water tank (i.e. not a combi). The boiler is working fine, but the motorised valves sometimes pass (i.e. the radiators heat up when only the hot water is on), and also when it's on frost-protection mode (it's in the garage, so this happens quite a bit in winter) the radiators also heat up, so the diverter valve is passing.

Question: which to replace first? Windows or boiler? Which will give the best energy saving, and which is likely to give the shortest payback?

TIA.

Boiler. No matter how good your windows are, you can't warm a house without a fully-functioning heating system. The old boiler is also likely to be very inefficient and is costing you loads each month.

[TB63]

Boiler any day of the week, you have an old system with a Y plan valve , so you heat the tank even if not needed..

Plus change your dad's whilst you're at it, modern rads need less water for greater heat output, quicker heat up time all round..

[S/Lt_Phillips]

Cheers chaps, mucho appreciated. The double-glazing salesman told me the opposite of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover he's was a lying shyster.

Good shout on replacing the radiators too - hadn't appreciated that they will help with efficiency. I've replaced about half of them as I've decorated, and put TRVs in, but I have another 5 to do, which don't yet have a TRV. I'm wondering about getting programmable ones.

[Sandstorm]

I've replaced about half of them as I've decorated, and put TRVs in, but I have another 5 to do, which don't yet have a TRV. I'm wondering about getting programmable ones.

My plumber put TRV only on rads in the middle of the system (bedrooms, study, etc.) The first one in the chain (large bathroom towel rail) and the last two (in the living room) are without valves (set to maximum heat full-time). Then I just set the whole system temp (to come on/off) with the boiler's remote control (19 Celsius most often) and it works. If a bedroom gets too hot/cold I can use the TRV in that room only.

Also a good idea to run the new boiler on Eco mode 24/7. Your tap water takes an extra 5 secs to heat up, but you save loads on gas by not having the boiler constantly switching on/off as the house temp dips/climbs throughout the day. It just bubbles away quietly all the time.

[weegie01]

We get two loads of wood pellets a year for our 6 ton hopper, usually circa 5 tons at a time.

Typically one load goes in early December, the other late January / early February, so we have not bought a load since then. We paid circa £1,200 for a 5 ton load.

I have just been quoted £480 per ton for delivery before Christmas.

Ouch

Edit.
To add insult to injury, we had to put in wall air vents in the three rooms in which we have woodburners. It is -8 outside today. You can feel the cold draft coming in from the other side of the room.

[inactionman]

We really need to look at updating our boiler, it looks all shiny and new but the service engineer reckons it's over 20 years old.

Has boiler technology moved much in 20 years? It's a combi that heats a pressurised watertank, can't believe there's much radical change.

We will definitely being fitting a hive controller or similar, it's got some ancient and baffling Honeywell wireless thing that seems to randomly turn things on and off.

[tc27]

We really need to look at updating our boiler, it looks all shiny and new but the service engineer reckons it's over 20 years old.

Has boiler technology moved much in 20 years? It's a combi that heats a pressurised watertank, can't believe there's much radical change.

We will definitely being fitting a hive controller or similar, it's got some ancient and baffling Honeywell wireless thing that seems to randomly turn things on and off.

Modern ones extract heat from the exhaust gas to and are upper 90th percentile efficient.

But a new boiler is a big heap of cash..

We have a smart controller for it but TBH I have just turned it to 18 day 16 night and forgotten about it.

[Blackmac]

Cheers chaps, mucho appreciated. The double-glazing salesman told me the opposite of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover he's was a lying shyster.

Good shout on replacing the radiators too - hadn't appreciated that they will help with efficiency. I've replaced about half of them as I've decorated, and put TRVs in, but I have another 5 to do, which don't yet have a TRV. I'm wondering about getting programmable ones.

Replacing an old system boiler with a combo is not always that straight forward. Combi systems work under pressure you have to be prepared that you might experience leaks from the pipe work that was not installed to cope with that pressure.

[petej]

Cheers chaps, mucho appreciated. The double-glazing salesman told me the opposite of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover he's was a lying shyster.

Good shout on replacing the radiators too - hadn't appreciated that they will help with efficiency. I've replaced about half of them as I've decorated, and put TRVs in, but I have another 5 to do, which don't yet have a TRV. I'm wondering about getting programmable ones.

Replacing an old system boiler with a combo is not always that straight forward. Combi systems work under pressure you have to be prepared that you might experience leaks from the pipe work that was not installed to cope with that pressure.

Not sure you would want to take out the tank if we are eventually moving to heat pumps.

[tabascoboy]

Cheers chaps, mucho appreciated. The double-glazing salesman told me the opposite of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover he's was a lying shyster.

Good shout on replacing the radiators too - hadn't appreciated that they will help with efficiency. I've replaced about half of them as I've decorated, and put TRVs in, but I have another 5 to do, which don't yet have a TRV. I'm wondering about getting programmable ones.

Replacing an old system boiler with a combo is not always that straight forward. Combi systems work under pressure you have to be prepared that you might experience leaks from the pipe work that was not installed to cope with that pressure.

That's why I went for a regular condenser boiler 4 years ago, the old pipes would've probably blown to pieces...

Set my radiator flow to 60 °C as they advise now, it is more economical and although not one room will rise above 18 °C after several hours (some barely manage 15 °C) , it's better than using it for less time with higher heat IMO. HW is on a timer for when it's needed, I don't use the thermostat, only use the CH when I'm at home and switch it on/off manually as required - no more than 6 hours a day to keep to a budget.

[GogLais]

We really need to look at updating our boiler, it looks all shiny and new but the service engineer reckons it's over 20 years old.

Has boiler technology moved much in 20 years? It's a combi that heats a pressurised watertank, can't believe there's much radical change.

We will definitely being fitting a hive controller or similar, it's got some ancient and baffling Honeywell wireless thing that seems to randomly turn things on and off.

Modern ones extract heat from the exhaust gas to and are upper 90th percentile efficient.

It’s very satisfying seeing the plumes of condensate coming out the flue on a cold day, most of the heat having been extracted.

[TB63]

Cheers chaps, mucho appreciated. The double-glazing salesman told me the opposite of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover he's was a lying shyster.

Good shout on replacing the radiators too - hadn't appreciated that they will help with efficiency. I've replaced about half of them as I've decorated, and put TRVs in, but I have another 5 to do, which don't yet have a TRV. I'm wondering about getting programmable ones.

Replacing an old system boiler with a combo is not always that straight forward. Combi systems work under pressure you have to be prepared that you might experience leaks from the pipe work that was not installed to cope with that pressure.

Not sure you would want to take out the tank if we are eventually moving to heat pumps.

Existing tank at that age. Wouldn't work with a heat pump..

[TB63]

Cheers chaps, mucho appreciated. The double-glazing salesman told me the opposite of course, but I wouldn't be at all surprised to discover he's was a lying shyster.

Good shout on replacing the radiators too - hadn't appreciated that they will help with efficiency. I've replaced about half of them as I've decorated, and put TRVs in, but I have another 5 to do, which don't yet have a TRV. I'm wondering about getting programmable ones.

Replacing an old system boiler with a combo is not always that straight forward. Combi systems work under pressure you have to be prepared that you might experience leaks from the pipe work that was not installed to cope with that pressure.

That's why I went for a regular condenser boiler 4 years ago, the old pipes would've probably blown to pieces...


There is a thing called pressure testing..Just sayin....


Set my radiator flow to 60 °C as they advise now, it is more economical and although not one room will rise above 18 °C after several hours (some barely manage 15 °C) , it's better than using it for less time with higher heat IMO. HW is on a timer for when it's needed, I don't use the thermostat, only use the CH when I'm at home and switch it on/off manually as required - no more than 6 hours a day to keep to a budget.

Change your rads for K2 types...TRV on all rads, pressure flush your system first..one day you might be warm enough to peel off a layer....

[TB63]

We get two loads of wood pellets a year for our 6 ton hopper, usually circa 5 tons at a time.

Typically one load goes in early December, the other late January / early February, so we have not bought a load since then. We paid circa £1,200 for a 5 ton load.

I have just been quoted £480 per ton for delivery before Christmas.

Ouch

Edit.
To add insult to injury, we had to put in wall air vents in the three rooms in which we have woodburners. It is -8 outside today. You can feel the cold draft coming in from the other side of the room.

What's the rating of the wood burners? 5kw or below doesn't need air vents.. Alternatively, look at installing direct ducted air to the stove.. What types have you got, might be able to help..

[weegie01]

What's the rating of the wood burners? 5kw or below doesn't need air vents.. Alternatively, look at installing direct ducted air to the stove.. What types have you got, might be able to help..

Thanks, but all over 5kw and every alternative was looked at.

Annoyingly, the current version of one of the stoves does have an external air connection, but none of ours do.

We made absolutely sure the new one we put in our offices was 5kw to avoid this.

[tc27]

Trying to decide if I prefer -6 or +40 - have had both this year!

[Paddington Bear]

Water company advising heating to be left on at a low level 24 hours this weekend to avoid freezing pipes...

[Ovals]

My energy supplier has just put up my monthly DD from £156 to £353. So about £4K per year.

I suspect we'll come in some way below that as we now have a 5KW log burning stove. We get half loads of Logs at £60 per go and they'll last about 6-8weeks.

[tabascoboy]

My energy supplier has just put up my monthly DD from £156 to £353. So about £4K per year.

I suspect we'll come in some way below that as we now have a 5KW log burning stove. We get half loads of Logs at £60 per go and they'll last about 6-8weeks.

Ouch. Mine are £62 for electric and £56 for gas but I make periodic payments on top of those to stay well in credit on both. So far neither company has tried to increase them...

[C69]

My energy supplier has just put up my monthly DD from £156 to £353. So about £4K per year.

I suspect we'll come in some way below that as we now have a 5KW log burning stove. We get half loads of Logs at £60 per go and they'll last about 6-8weeks.

I pity the poor fuckers that can't afford such massive energy hikes. Especially if they have a variable rate mortgage.
This cold snap is going to very costly indeed. So many home owners now are just not aware of the days of double digit interest rates.

[Blackmac]

Currently spending £9 a day on gas alone. This time last year it was £2.40.

[tabascoboy]

Currently spending £9 a day on gas alone. This time last year it was £2.40.

Kept it to under £7 per day ( last year £2.10). Some very cold nights here but not as low as some parts of England like Oxfordshire and nothing like Scotland's deep freeze

[Blackmac]

Currently spending £9 a day on gas alone. This time last year it was £2.40.

Kept it to under £7 per day ( last year £2.10). Some very cold nights here but not as low as some parts of England like Oxfordshire and nothing like Scotland's deep freeze

We are sadly in one of the coldest parts of southern Scotland. We arrived at Edinburgh airport last night and the weather was -1.5, by the time we drove 8 miles south to our house it was -7.5.

[weegie01]

My younger son had turned down the heating in his flat substantially to economise. He is in London and had a call from his flatmate to say the boiler was leaking. Apparently rain has blown in through the pipe in the wall and frozen, blowing the boiler. I have no idea how that happens, but given the standard of work the cowboys who did the conversion from a hotel to flats, it does not surprise me.

Apparently he may have got away with it if the boiler had not been off so much.

So time for a new boiler.

[tabascoboy]

My younger son had turned down the heating in his flat substantially to economise. He is in London and had a call from his flatmate to say the boiler was leaking. Apparently rain has blown in through the pipe in the wall and frozen, blowing the boiler. I have no idea how that happens, but given the standard of work the cowboys who did the conversion from a hotel to flats, it does not surprise me.

Apparently he may have got away with it if the boiler had not been off so much.

So time for a new boiler.

Through the flue? "The usual cause is an incorrect angle on the flue! It should slope downwards towards the outside at about 3 degrees" or " if the void area around the flue is not fully made good with a sand & cement mix"
Definitely sounds like substandard work then