The Official English Rugby Thread

[fishfoodie]

Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

[inactionman]

What happens if Worcester and Wasps don't get reconstituted? Wasps' debts in particular are massive, and they don't have a home (I can't imagine they'll be welcomed back in Coventry, and London's at capacity with teams given the new set up will bring Ealing into play).

Either way this looks like a better long term solution to professional rugby given the heath robinson nature of the leagues. It won't please everybody, particularly the teams in the lower leagues that dream of doing an Exeter, but they've precious little real chance of making the big time. It's funny that two total disasters has forced the leagues into the structure that should have been established a long time ago.

It does seem that way, doesn't it.

Is it better to bodge along or to deal with it - although I'm not sure what I'd say if I were a Wasps fan. There but for the grace of God and Bruce Craig.

We've lost Worcester, Wasps, London Welsh, Richmond in the early days (although I'm not quite sure what went on there) due to financial problems caused to a great part by bad or deluded ownership and little obvious regulation or structure. It's not a new problem, and left untended it'll repeat again.

[Margin__Walker]

What happens if Worcester and Wasps don't get reconstituted? Wasps' debts in particular are massive, and they don't have a home (I can't imagine they'll be welcomed back in Coventry, and London's at capacity with teams given the new set up will bring Ealing into play).

Either way this looks like a better long term solution to professional rugby given the heath robinson nature of the leagues. It won't please everybody, particularly the teams in the lower leagues that dream of doing an Exeter, but they've precious little real chance of making the big time. It's funny that two total disasters has forced the leagues into the structure that should have been established a long time ago.

I guess that will be them finished then as a pro entity. Wouldn't be surprised to see Wasps at least reappear, as they have a fairly strong brand, albeit there are huge hurdles in terms of location/facilities etc.. I'm not up to speed on how administration works, but I assume most of those debts just disappear under new ownership.

[Paddington Bear]

Two rumours I've heard about Wasps:
1) The only place that's said yes to hosting them is Adams Park
2) Dallaglio is up to his tits in some of Wasps' debts and rights deals (beyond being a Director) and got some very poor advice meaning he hasn't made an agreement with HMRC

[Paddington Bear]

Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

I may be in a minority but I would be interested in having them. With the state of Euro competition a Home Nations league becomes a more viable prospect every day.

[inactionman]

Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

I may be in a minority but I would be interested in having them. With the state of Euro competition a Home Nations league becomes a more viable prospect every day.

Geographically they're pretty local too. Relatively easy away trip to Cardiff, Swansea or, if you're desperate, Newport either by road or rail -not much different to getting to Exeter for, say, a Sale fan.

I used to pop over to Rodney Parade for some of the Bath pre-seasons, it's an easy trip, and thankfully very quick home.

[SaintK]

Two rumours I've heard about Wasps:
1) The only place that's said yes to hosting them is Adams Park
2) Dallaglio is up to his tits in some of Wasps' debts and rights deals (beyond being a Director) and got some very poor advice meaning he hasn't made an agreement with HMRC

To be honest I think Worcester have a far better chance of surviving than Wasps. A move back to Adams Park would not be the right move as it wasn't the first time it was their home.
Dallaglio appears to be as bad a businessman as he is a rugby pundit and writer!!!

[Brazil]

Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

I may be in a minority but I would be interested in having them. With the state of Euro competition a Home Nations league becomes a more viable prospect every day.

It's not impossible that they take up the spare berths to fill out the 20 team structure. However I imagine there would be all sorts of issues with getting them in given it's an RFU competition.

To be honest I think Worcester have a far better chance of surviving than Wasps.

Indeed. They still have the ground and training facilities which can be got up and running in short order. Wasps have to start from scratch.

[inactionman]

Are you sure we can't convince you to take the Welsh ?

I may be in a minority but I would be interested in having them. With the state of Euro competition a Home Nations league becomes a more viable prospect every day.

It's not impossible that they take up the spare berths to fill out the 20 team structure. However I imagine there would be all sorts of issues with getting them in given it's an RFU competition.

To be honest I think Worcester have a far better chance of surviving than Wasps.

Indeed. They still have the ground and training facilities which can be got up and running in short order. Wasps have to start from scratch.

Didn't Worcester have some of the assets stripped out prior to collapse? Or was that just the surrounding car park?

[Brazil]

I think that was just the land surrounding the stadium. The training facility and stadium were on separate deals IIRC. Obviously it will present a logistical problem if somebody builds a housing estate around the stadium.

[SaintK]

I think that was just the land surrounding the stadium. The training facility and stadium were on separate deals IIRC. Obviously it will present a logistical problem if somebody builds a housing estate around the stadium.

I thought I read that it would be warehousing and logistic hubs that would possibly be built on the land. Perfectly situated as for the M5 is Shire Park business centre which is already there. There is no housing near the Warriors land and it all backs on to greenbelt farmland

[Kawazaki]

The P-Shares are, effectively, a payment in kind to the owners that have lost money for years bankrolling English professional clubs. Despite their value being only a fraction of what the owners have ploughed in over the years, I can still see their value being a major problem to England getting a professional structure somewhere close to being functional and fit to serve the best interests of all the stakeholders. And that's before we mention CVC who have added zero value since they bought in. I believe in order to get this structure in place then the P-shares either have to be written off in full or bought by the RFU.

[SaintK]

The P-Shares are, effectively, a payment in kind to the owners that have lost money for years bankrolling English professional clubs. Despite their value being only a fraction of what the owners have ploughed in over the years, I can still see their value being a major problem to England getting a professional structure somewhere close to being functional and fit to serve the best interests of all the stakeholders. And that's before we mention CVC who have added zero value since they bought in. I believe in order to get this structure in place then the P-shares either have to be written off in full or bought by the RFU.

What is their total value?

[Kawazaki]

The P-Shares are, effectively, a payment in kind to the owners that have lost money for years bankrolling English professional clubs. Despite their value being only a fraction of what the owners have ploughed in over the years, I can still see their value being a major problem to England getting a professional structure somewhere close to being functional and fit to serve the best interests of all the stakeholders. And that's before we mention CVC who have added zero value since they bought in. I believe in order to get this structure in place then the P-shares either have to be written off in full or bought by the RFU.

What is their total value?

c.£10-20m? per club but they are only worth anything if somebody is prepared/allowed to buy them.

I've got more sympathy for the club owners than most, not through any over-zealous fandom but more because (most) of them have underwritten losses year-in year-out with no hope of ever seeing that money again. I even tip my hat to Tony Rowe in this regard, maybe especially him. CVC have really thrown a huge turd in the machine though with their investment which is likely exactly what they anticipated. The RFU should really buy the CVC shareholding as a matter of urgency - it at least gives them some real skin in the club game and a chance to sit around the table with the clubs reading the same sheet of paper. Trouble is that CVC paid £200m for it 4 years ago so I doubt they would let it go for less than £300m. That's £100m out of English rugby just because the RFU are just so slow to react and respond to shifts and movements in the game.

[Kawazaki]

An interesting chart...

[Paddington Bear]

Anyone know when Leicester release tickets for games? Planning on taking my Dad up to the Leicester Sarries game as his Christmas present but doesn’t appear to be on sale just yet

[ASMO]

Quins cancelled big game 14 on 27th December due to train strikes, bummer as i was looking forwards to that post Xmas.

[Ovals]

Quins cancelled big game 14 on 27th December due to train strikes, bummer as i was looking forwards to that post Xmas.

Yep - we were having a family outing to it with 10 of us going. I hope all those that prepaid for parking will get their money back - luckily we hadn't booked anything.

Still, should be a bit warmer for the March 4th replacement.

[westport]

Wasps will now take their place in the Championship next season after their takeover was approved by the Rugby Football Union.

A statement reads: “The RFU Board concluded that the application for Wasps was approved subject to a number of specific conditions being met and that it would continue to work with the bidders through the satisfaction of those conditions over the coming weeks.”

Wasps’ bid does not include the women’s team which is a separate club and which will continue to play as part of the amateur club, Wasps FC, at Twyford Avenue.

“These include a range of financial commitments to ensure that the club remains funded, the lodging of a significant bond, the regular provision of financial and other information, swift payment of rugby creditors, and corporate governance requirements including relating to the club’s board of directors and risk management process.”


A consortium led by Worcester former chief executive Jim O’Toole, has seen its bid rejected on the grounds of its refusal to meet the conditions set by the RFU.

The English game’s governing body said it will instead work with Worcester’s administrator Begbies Traynor to enable alternative bids in the hope of preserving professional rugby at Sixways.

“In the coming days we will be in touch with the administrator to discuss other bid options as our goal remains to support the continuation of the rugby club in Worcester.” a statement from the RFU read.

Former Worcester boss Steve Diamond insisted again this week that he is ready to take over the club.

He wrote on Twitter: “I Can confirm that Adam Hewitt and I are fully committed to bringing Worcester Warriors back to the Premiership. We have the plan and the funding. Give us the opportunity. We Will give you the rugby. Bring it on!”

[SaintK]

So Borthwick and Sinfield to be announced by the RFU later today or tomorrow.
No news on the rest of the coaching team as yet

[Rhubarb & Custard]

That's a forwards coach and a defensive coach, what more could you want? It probably wasn't what Shane Meadows had in mind when he wrote This is England, but it would be somewhat apt in this instance

[geordie_6]

So Borthwick and Sinfield to be announced by the RFU later today or tomorrow.
No news on the rest of the coaching team as yet

Be brilliant if we are able to bring Sinfield as well.

[Brazil]

Strong rumours that they're going to nick Mike Forshaw, which would be gutting as a Sale fan, but very good for England.

[geordie_6]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... head-coach

Borthwick confirmed, Sinfield as defence coach. Wider coaching team "to follow in coming weeks".

[SaintK]

https://www.englandrugby.com/news/artic ... head-coach

Borthwick confirmed, Sinfield as defence coach. Wider coaching team "to follow in coming weeks".

Wigglesworth named as interim Head Coach at Tigers and stands down from playing

[Kawazaki]

Ben Earl the England 12?

Stuart Barnes
Monday December 19 2022, 12.01am GMT, The Times

As an open-side flanker, Ben Earl’s contribution to Saracens’ superb 28-20 win against Lyon in France was minimal. I don’t remember him winning penalties or turnovers at the breakdown. The opposing fly half wasn’t put under a great deal of pressure from the man who wears the No 7 shirt for Mark McCall’s team. Given the quality and quantity of open-side flankers in England, the previous campaign’s Gallagher Premiership player of the season is an easy man to omit on the flank.

Ah, but he was voted player of the season, not back-row forward of the year. He is so much more than a No 7. On Saturday, he revelled in his repertoire of tricks. In the process, his performance begs the question: should he be utilised in other, more original ways than simply as a bloke who packs down in the back row?
His strengths are England’s weaknesses. It has been a while since England’s pack have surged onto the front foot over the gainline, the target set by a centre speeding into space from quick lineout ball. Yet ten minutes into the Lyon game, Earl took a pass from Billy Vunipola and utilised his speed and footwork to rip through the opposing midfield.

Manu Tuilagi is the hard-running English dream but the nature of his horrible collision with the Ulster prop, Andy Warwick, in round one of the Champions Cup was telling. He committed body and soul to the barging run. He always does. But not once did he look for a weak shoulder, or a shift in his running angle. Apart from being injury prone (and last week’s injury was as much his fault as the technically poor tackler’s) he is painfully predictable.

Earl roared through the French defence, fast and flashy as any back with the brute determination of a ball- carrying forward. Ten minutes later, he popped up on Owen Farrell’s shoulder to sprint through for a try. The odds were always against the Lyon rearguard but the little changes of direction made the score certain.
On the half-hour, he chased a Saracens kick-off and flattened an opponent. Open-side or centre, it is part of the same broken-field package. In the second half, there was a lovely inside pass to Elliot Daly which unleashed Saracens’ now trademark counterattack from deep.

There isn’t a centre who carries and chases with more effect. He knows his way around the breakdown as someone brought up in the back row would, but he doesn’t live for the confrontation in the manner of Jack Willis, Tom Curry or Sam Underhill. He’ll ensure that his side are not numerically disadvantaged at the point of contact. If his team need quick ball he will provide the momentum to block the counter ruck or jackal. There are a few open-sides available to England who are more effective at the breakdown but Earl would be better at the point of contact than any back.
Imagine an England back row with Earl lending his shoulder from the centre. It would provide the sort of quick ball that England lacked in the autumn. It is not as if he would be asked to switch positions. Bar packing down on the flank, Saracens have liberated him to play more as an auxiliary back than forward.
Earl has the intelligence to adapt to the new role with ease, though kicking would be an issue

He already does damage from the inside centre position from lineouts. It needn’t be that difficult to learn to defend more permanently in the midfield, rather than from the flank. Defence is first and foremost a state of mind and this man loves getting stuck into tackling as much as he enjoys bursting through a gap created by his brilliant running lines.

Back row and inside centre are two of the field’s fundamental positions. The amount of small decisions that need to be made are vast. The fly half is expected to provide the broad vision but the non-stop thinking process of, “Do I take the tackle, do I commit to the breakdown etc?” belongs to the flankers and inside centres; these are the building blocks that ensure the platform.

The leap from the back row to the centre is not seismic, especially if you spend most of your time as only a theoretical No 7, roaming around the field, plugging holes. The previous England regime, led by Stuart Lancaster, understood that the gap between back row and inside centre wasn’t great as they toyed with rugby league convert Sam Burgess in both positions.
Work would be required of Earl in the art of first-phase defence but destroying is easier than creating. Earl is experienced, he is extremely smart. He is ideally equipped, mentally and physically, to make the transition from wearing No 7 to No 12.

The biggest flaw in the argument of turning him into a centre would be Earl’s lack of a kicking game. But that is where a balanced selection plays its part. Henry Slade has a superb left foot to deliver the variety from the fly half’s (whoever starts) right foot. The inclusion of Daly would strengthen the kicking even more. It also offers familiarity to Earl if Farrell plays inside and Daly outside or behind him.

Saracens are far and away the best team in England. There’s a logic in picking a spine of Saracens from Jamie George in the front row to Daly in the back three, with Earl as an injection to boost the back line, not to mention adding a fourth member to the back row. England needs an open mind, not an either/or/or/or option at open-side.

[ASMO]

Barnes as we all know is a fucking idiot.

[Kawazaki]

Barnes as we all know is a fucking idiot.

Watch Earl carry the ball to the line. He does it better than any EQP 12.

[Margin__Walker]

I'll give it some thought it when McCall start giving him the odd game there.

Until the I'll consider it a stupid idea.

[Rhubarb & Custard]

It's about as sensible as playing Burgess there with no thought to decision making, footwork, communication, rinse and repeating the process, concentration, scramble, transition from attack to defence or vice versa, passing, being caught wider out than the 12 channel...

If one wanted to do with with Earl, or indeed with Simmonds, trying to take some of the physical strengths they have and transferring that to the test scene it's not totally out of bounds as a concept, but whether and how it might ever be looked at in practice would be a huge issue. Even before you'd be asking Sarries to undermine Farrell's place in the England team

[Kawazaki]

I'll give it some thought it when McCall start giving him the odd game there.

Until the I'll consider it a stupid idea.

Of course, moving Earl to play centre for England would be a scandalous indictment of any contingent development of 12s since Greenwood retired. And besides, Lozowski is an excellent 12 when pushed to play there and Kelly is coming along. It's not such a crazy idea but more of a 'if needs be' due to a 6/2 split on the bench.

[inactionman]

It's about as sensible as playing Burgess there with no thought to decision making, footwork, communication, rinse and repeating the process, concentration, scramble, transition from attack to defence or vice versa, passing, being caught wider out than the 12 channel...

If one wanted to do with with Earl, or indeed with Simmonds, trying to take some of the physical strengths they have and transferring that to the test scene it's not totally out of bounds as a concept, but whether and how it might ever be looked at in practice would be a huge issue. Even before you'd be asking Sarries to undermine Farrell's place in the England team

I am in no way defending the idea of putting Burgess into a Union WC starting XV at 12, but he did have very good handling, line-picking and offloading skills developed in league so the basics of the skillset were there. In saying that, it's not often I'll back up Mike Ford in any argument, but Burgess should have been a back row*

Ben Earl, for all of his clear strengths, has few of the back-specific skills that I can see. Its just a silly idea. Might as well stick him at 9 a la Bergamasco <insert Ben Youngs joke round about here>

* for my sanity, did Farrell also play 6 for club and 12 for Country?

[Rhubarb & Custard]

Doing those things in league isn't nothing, but it's also not doing in in rugby. As we saw with say Iestyn Harris, a player who in no way lacked for skill, if your decision making is never up to speed the rest of it looks poor.

And old Farrell certainly played 6 for Sarries and 12 for England, but I seem to recall whilst Gaffney wanted to make him a 6 he took on board what the player wanted in terms of progressing with England, quite how many times he played 12 for Sarries I don't recall though, I don't actually recall how often he played for Sarries.

[Hal Jordan]

"Old Farrell"

I think he'd prefer "Aged like a fine wine Farrell".

[Rhubarb & Custard]

"Old Farrell"

I think he'd prefer "Aged like a fine wine Farrell".

A Beaujolais Nouveau '75.

[Slick]

It's about as sensible as playing Burgess there with no thought to decision making, footwork, communication, rinse and repeating the process, concentration, scramble, transition from attack to defence or vice versa, passing, being caught wider out than the 12 channel...

If one wanted to do with with Earl, or indeed with Simmonds, trying to take some of the physical strengths they have and transferring that to the test scene it's not totally out of bounds as a concept, but whether and how it might ever be looked at in practice would be a huge issue. Even before you'd be asking Sarries to undermine Farrell's place in the England team

I am in no way defending the idea of putting Burgess into a Union WC starting XV at 12, but he did have very good handling, line-picking and offloading skills developed in league so the basics of the skillset were there. In saying that, it's not often I'll back up Mike Ford in any argument, but Burgess should have been a back row*

Ben Earl, for all of his clear strengths, has few of the back-specific skills that I can see. Its just a silly idea. Might as well stick him at 9 a la Bergamasco <insert Ben Youngs joke round about here>

* for my sanity, did Farrell also play 6 for club and 12 for Country?

Yup, these out loud thoughts are just so dumb, as if picking the fat boy in the centre for the U12’s is going to work at international level.

He can run hard! Great, and he will be exposed elsewhere in seconds

[petej]

Barnes as we all know is a fucking idiot.

Despite being an idiot the comment on Tuilagi is valid. Manu Tuilagi was different from Alesana and Henry before all the injuries because he did attack weak shoulders and shift his running angles. That has pretty much disappeared from his game.

[Margin__Walker]

Support staff wise Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has Proudfoot and Hodgson going. Cockers staying on

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ve-latest/

[JM2K6]

Maybe THIS rugby league coach Scabnose is bringing with him will end up being the revolutionary thinker England needs

[sockwithaticket]

Support staff wise Charlie Morgan at the Telegraph has Proudfoot and Hodgson going. Cockers staying on

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union ... ve-latest/

Having confirmed Sinfield this feels needlessly non-committal.

Asked specifically about Hodgson, whose arrival was only announced in November, Sweeney himself would not comment on the individual situations of any coaches.

“I think it's too early to say that yet,” Sweeney said.

Afaik Hodgson is defence only and we're not going to have him doubling up with Sir Kev are we?